N40 - New route number for Cork South Ring Road?

paulhardman

Lads

I've had a quick search but couldn't spot anything. As some of you will know, they've erected mahoosive new gantries over the Ballincollig bypass in the last month or so, and last week some of the signs have gone up.

What is particularly mystifing is that if you travel east towards the Bandon Road roundabout, as you approach the new sign for the newly-christened Junction 1 to the east end of Ballincollig and the straight road towards Cork (in other words, take the slip road to continue your journey on the N22 from Kerry) the new straight on signs indicate "Eastbound", "Cork", airport, port etc, with a large "N40" at the bottom.

Could this be the new designation for what is currently known as the N25, which starts at that point and continues all the way around the ring road, through the tunnel and onwards to Rosslare?

My guess would be that the whole of the Cork Ring Road, when it is eventually finished, will be the N40 - going from the Ballincollig bypass, over the new flyovers, through the tunnel, across the new North Ring Road (whenever that may be!) and back to the Poulvalone (sp?) roundabout at the end of Ballincollig high street.

What do you think?

niloc1951

paulhardman wrote: »

Lads

I've had a quick search but couldn't spot anything. As some of you will know, they've erected mahoosive new gantries over the Ballincollig bypass in the last month or so, and last week some of the signs have gone up.

What is particularly mystifing is that if you travel east towards the Bandon Road roundabout, as you approach the new sign for the newly-christened Junction 1 to the east end of Ballincollig and the straight road towards Cork (in other words, take the slip road to continue your journey on the N22 from Kerry) the new straight on signs indicate "Eastbound", "Cork", airport, port etc, with a large "N40" at the bottom.

Could this be the new designation for what is currently known as the N25, which starts at that point and continues all the way around the ring road, through the tunnel and onwards to Rosslare?

My guess would be that the whole of the Cork Ring Road, when it is eventually finished, will be the N40 - going from the Ballincollig bypass, over the new flyovers, through the tunnel, across the new North Ring Road (whenever that may be!) and back to the Poulvalone (sp?) roundabout at the end of Ballincollig high street.

What do you think?

I'm surprised at you paulhardman, why waste time trying to second guess the NRA, don't you know they inhabit a world for removed from ours.
Perhaps we'll all be so busy admiring their new signs we won't notice the crap condition of our roads, especially the recently resurface sections of the N25 east of Cork City which is like driving on a washboard.
BTW, what was deficient about the ones on the N22 and N25 which required the expenditure of scarce resources on their replacement.

Sponge Bob

niloc1951 wrote: »

BTW, what was deficient about the ones on the N22 and N25 which required the expenditure of scarce resources on their replacement.

They are crap single carriageway, bar the Ballincollig Bypass. The N40 sounds like it even could become an M40 sometime in the next century

L1011

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They are crap single carriageway, bar the Ballincollig Bypass. The N40 sounds like it even could become an M40 sometime in the next century

I think he means the signage.

Some of them were "dodgy gantries" from the old TSM, other ones - the NRA is basically bringing every dual carriageway up to the new TSM, no matter how old or new the signs are. They replaced sub 1 year old signs with gantries on the oldest bit of the M4.

irishdub14

But what about DOOR? I thought M40 was reserved for that?

Empire o de Sun

irishdub14 wrote: »

But what about DOOR? I thought M40 was reserved for that?

I think the Door or Leinster Motorway isn't a priority for the next 30 years probably, though, a reserve should be created for it.

L1011

irishdub14 wrote: »

But what about DOOR? I thought M40 was reserved for that?

M90 or M100 are the only other notable numbers left, but both are in theory secondary...

invinciblePRSTV

I guess it makes sense considering how the link goes from N22->N25 in a blink of an eye on the Ballincollig section and it tidies it up nicely with the Airport & Port directions. Perhaps the only suggestion would be to extend the N40 designation all the way to the Little Island, Cobh or perhaps even the Midleton exits to fit in with the CASP boundaries and distinguish the Cork metro area from the little used and primarily rural N25.

I also see that a bit more clearing work has also gone on westbound between the Sarsfield & Bandon R/As, any word on the cash being released for upgrade's to begin?.

niloc1951

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

................... the little used ......... N25.

invinciblePRSTV

niloc1951 wrote: »

AFAIR outside the Cork area aren't AADTs on the N25 in the very low teens and lower on the various stretches through to Rosslare?

Amtmann

Ms McNally will surely know what this is all about

niloc1951

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

... AADTs.......

Bust the jargon please and I might know what you are talking about.
Being a regular driver on the route I would consider it 'busy' particularly during waking hours.

Amtmann

niloc1951 wrote: »

Bust the jargon please and I might know what you are talking about.
Being a regular driver on the route I would consider it 'busy' particularly during waking hours.

AADT = annual average daily traffic. In other words, traffic numbers using the road each day.

marmurr1916

Interesting. Didn't think we'd ever get an N4x route number. I wonder will the NRA ever assign the remaining N3x route numbers, or the remaining N4x route numbers?

Typewriter

N25 Little island junction is now junction 2.

paulhardman

Typewriter wrote: »

N25 Little island junction is now junction 2.

That would pretty much fit in with my theory that the N40 will stretch from the Ballincollig exit to the Jack Lynch Tunnel.

Colm R

This is interesting. If (and its a big if) the North Ring Road is ever completed, would the N40 continue along the M8 to north of Glanmire where the expected branch would be for the North Ring Road.

Irish and Proud

paulhardman wrote: »

That would pretty much fit in with my theory that the N40 will stretch from the Ballincollig exit to the Jack Lynch Tunnel.

Count me in mate!

I'd say indeed that it's a good guess that there will be a new N40 from Ballincollig East to Dunkettle in the short to medium term - it would make sense. Let's speculate:

N40 Anti-clockwise:

Jct 01 - N22 Ballincollig East
Jct 02 - UCR Bishopstown
Jct 03 - N71 Bandon Road
(Multiplex with N71)
Jct 04 - N71 Sarsfield Road
Jct 05 - UCR Ballyphehane
Jct 06 - N27 Kinsale Road
Jct 07a - UCR Douglas Exit 1
Jct 07b - R609 Dougles Exit 2
Jct 08 - N28 Ringaskiddy Road
Jct 09 - UCR Mahon Point
Jct 10 - M8 (Jct 19)/N25 (Jct 01) Dunkettle

(UCR - Unclassified Road)

Colm R

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Count me in mate!

I'd say indeed that it's a good guess that there will be a new N40 from Ballincollig East to Dunkettle in the short to medium term - it would make sense. Let's speculate:

N40 Anti-clockwise:

Jct 01 - N22 Ballincollig East
Jct 02 - UCR Bishopstown
Jct 03 - N71 Bandon Road
(Multiplex with N71)
Jct 04 - N71 Sarsfield Road
Jct 05 - UCR Ballyphehane
Jct 06 - N27 Kinsale Road
Jct 07a - UCR Douglas Exit 1
Jct 07b - R609 Dougles Exit 2
Jct 08 - N28 Ringaskiddy Road
Jct 09 - UCR Mahon Point
Jct 10 - M8 (Jct 19)/N25 (Jct 01) Dunkettle

(UCR - Unclassified Road)

and if we take my off the wall theory

Jct 11 - M8/R639 Glanmire/Watergrasshill
Jct 12 - N20/Blarney
Jct 13 - Ballicollig/Cork City West
Jct 01 - N22 Ballincollig East

Pie in the sky I know

Teddy455

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Count me in mate!

I'd say indeed that it's a good guess that there will be a new N40 from Ballincollig East to Dunkettle in the short to medium term - it would make sense. Let's speculate:

N40 Anti-clockwise:

Jct 01 - N22 Ballincollig East
Jct 02 - UCR Bishopstown
Jct 03 - N71 Bandon Road
(Multiplex with N71)
Jct 04 - N71 Sarsfield Road
Jct 05 - UCR Ballyphehane
Jct 06 - N27 Kinsale Road
Jct 07a - UCR Douglas Exit 1
Jct 07b - R609 Dougles Exit 2
Jct 08 - N28 Ringaskiddy Road
Jct 09 - UCR Mahon Point
Jct 10 - M8 (Jct 19)/N25 (Jct 01) Dunkettle

(UCR - Unclassified Road)

My view would be if the northern ring road is built.

Jct 01 Ballincollig East (N22)
Jct 02 Bishopstown
Jct 03 Bandon Road Roundabout (N71)
Jct 04 Sarfields Road Roundabout (N71)
Jct 05 Ballyphehane/Togher
Jct 06 Kinsale Road Roundabout (N27)
Jct 07 Douglas West
Jct 08 Douglas East (R609)
Jct 09 Ringaskiddy/Carrigaline (N28)
Jct 10 Mahon/Blackrock
Jct 11 Dunkettle Interchange (N25)
Jct 12 Glanmire
Jct 13 Watergrasshill/Dublin (M8)
Jct 14 Whites Cross/Mayfield (R614)
Jct 15 Blarney/Limerick (N20 or M20)
Jct 16 Polavane Roundabout/Ballincollig North (R608)
Jct 17 Killumney Road
and back to Jct 01.

Amtmann

Here we go:

Tremelo wrote: »

Ms McNally will surely know what this is all about

Mr. Tremelo,

Thank you for your email.

The reclassification of roads is a matter for the Minister for Transport. I understand that a range of proposals on national and regional roads is currently being considered by the Minister. In the circumstances, you may wish to direct your query to the Department of Transport.

Regards,

Stark

"We're going to renumber all the roads in the country for ****s and giggles". On the plus side, Openstreetmap will be the one map to rule them all when it's done.

marmurr1916

Tremelo wrote: »

Here we go:

Sehr gut, Herr Tremelo!

My guess is that various national secondary routes (eg - N87, used to be R200) will be downgraded to regional road status, with some sections of regional road (possibly some of the former national primary routes bypassed by motorways) being upgraded.

There are a few national secondary route numbers which are no longer assigned as they were reclassified as (sections of) national primary routes - eg. the section of the N18 from Oranmore to Claregalway used to be the N64 and the N30 used to be the N79.

These 'lapsed' national secondary route numbers could be used again for reclassified routes.

Hopefully the numbering system for national primary routes N26 and above, plus national secondary routes N81 and above can be rationalised.

For example, the N26 should really be renumbered as the N34, with a different route (maybe Cork's Sarsfield Road between Sarsfield Rd and Wilton roundabouts?) re-classified as the N26.

If the N26 became the N34, it would allow route numbers N35 to N39 to be assigned to new roads along the western seaboard, with the next sequence of national primary route numbers culminating in the N40 for Cork's ring road.

N35 could be reserved for a future Galway outer bypass, N36 for the ex-N18 from junction with Limerick Ring Road, along Condell Rd to Dock Rd roundabout, N37 for the Tralee bypass etc.

L1011

That NRA response really feels like "we've jumped the gun and aren't too happy that you noticed".

Its also a bit ridiculous that they've just resigned virtually the entire motorway network and are now possibly going to be changing numbers of roads with junctions on said network...

Amtmann

I sent this follow-up email to the Dept of Transport:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I directed a question to the NRA about whether or not is in the process of changing the route number of the N25 Cork South Ring Road from N25 to N40.

This is what the NRA said when they got back to me:

Mr. X,

Thank you for your email.

The reclassification of roads is a matter for the Minister for Transport. I understand that a range of proposals on national and regional roads is currently being considered by the Minister. In the circumstances, you may wish to direct your query to the Department of Transport.

Regards,

Annamarie McNally

Could you please outline:

* what this range of proposals on national and regional roads involves
* if the N25 is indeed being re-named the N40 and, if yes, where the N40 * will begin and end
* any other changes to the N-road network, including route number changes and possible detrunking

Kind Regards,

Will obviously post the reply here when I receive it.

munchkin_utd

slight tangent, but interestingly the UK is currently on a process of consultation on road reclassification.

Seeing as Ireland takes "inspiration" from the UK for many legislative issues, maybe this is a good reference point to use to the aping thinking of the Irish Dept of Transport.

It deals with various issues like the Strategic Roads Network and the "trunking" and "de-trunking" of main strategic routes.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2011-02/roadnetworkconsultation.pdf

paulhardman

Obviously someone did indeed jump the gun, as I noticed driving to work yesterday that the N40 has been stickered over with an N25 on that sign!

Amtmann

No news RE the renaming of the N22/N25 SRR. However, cantilevers are being installed on all exits between the tunnel and the Kinsale Road Interchange. Also, I saw the gantries the on Ballincollig bypass where - I presume - N40 is covered by an N22 patch.

I imagine that when the flyovers are complete, the whole thing will be redesignated the N40 (probably not the M40 though, at least not until Dunkettle is upgraded).

Amtmann

The SRR is being comprehensively re-signed from the tunnel to the Sarsfield Roundabout. Time will tell if the new signs carry 'N40'.

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

That NRA response really feels like "we've jumped the gun and aren't too happy that you noticed".

Its also a bit ridiculous that they've just resigned virtually the entire motorway network and are now possibly going to be changing numbers of roads with junctions on said network...

One thing I've noticed re: failure to plan is the lack of provision for future motorway junctions. The N7 from the M50 to the M9/M7 split has at least 3 more junctions on the way with no numbers reserved for them:
Newlands Cross (1A?)
Tootenhill (4A? - west of Rathcoole)
Future Leinster Orbital (10A? - west of Naas)

Since the stretch was renumbered only a few years ago, this really is ridic.

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

One thing I've noticed re: failure to plan is the lack of provision for future motorway junctions. The N7 from the M50 to the M9/M7 split has at least 3 more junctions on the way with no numbers reserved for them:
Newlands Cross (1A?)
Tootenhill (4A? - west of Rathcoole)
Future Leinster Orbital (10A? - west of Naas)

Since the stretch was renumbered only a few years ago, this really is ridic.

It already has an A suffixed "junction" at Citywest (3A).

Not heard of a future junction at Tootenhill but there is going to be one for the Sallins bypass/Osberstown at some point also, 9A I'd assume.

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

It already has an A suffixed "junction" at Citywest (3A).

Not heard of a future junction at Tootenhill but there is going to be one for the Sallins bypass/Osberstown at some point also, 9A I'd assume.

You're right - I only just noticed that the pair of LILOs west of the main Citywest junction (J3) is labelled 3A and indeed appears on signs.
I forgot about Osberstown. I presume this is dead until the property market stages a comeback.

Jayuu

In fairness the numbers on the junctions between Naas and the M50 are fairly random because the original plan was for a new M7 to run from Naas to a new junction on the M50 (Junction 8) and not along the Naas Road. I would imagine that had that plan been carried out we would have properly numbered interesctions (1 to 8) along the way although I've never seen any plans for that proposed route. Are there any out there?

Once the plan was dropped following the widening of the Naas Road they just numbered certain junctions to fit. It does seem odd that they left out a possible number for NX but as they were short numbers already they probably just decided to go with what the obvious properly designed interesections.

I reckon the 3A designation was added purely to distinguish between the junction for the Citywest Hotel as opposed to the junction for the Citywest Business Campus. It was definitely a later addition.

Even at that there are some small junctions on this route that don't have any designations. Inbound there's a junction for Baldonnel just before the Citywest junction that isn't numbered. And there's a minor road join just before Newlands Cross that doesn't have one. I think there's another one further out but I'm not sure about it. Outbound there's the one you mention at Tootenhill.

With regard to future proofing that's kind of hard to predict. Yes I know the Leinster Orbital was talked about but had any form of real planning for it taken place. As far as I remember it was still a proposal even at the height of the boom. I can't see it being built now for at least another 20 years.

Its kind of hard to leave gaps because you think there might be a junction at some time in the future. And if time does overtake your plan then is putting in an "A" junction number such a big deal.

JeffK88

Osberstown Junction is built and open according to Googlemaps :rolleyes:

invinciblePRSTV

So anyway, back to the N40......

Amtmann

...of which we as yet have no news.

spacetweek

JeffK88 wrote: »

Osberstown Junction is built and open according to Googlemaps :rolleyes:

I submitted a change request to Teleatlas, but they're usually useless.

Amtmann

N25 being changed to N40 confirmed here.

From N22 at Ovens/EMC interchange to a point east of Carrigtwohill the tunnel.

Colm R

Amtmann wrote: »

N25 being changed to N40 confirmed here.

From N22 at Ovens/EMC interchange to a point east of Carrigtwohill.

I cannot imagine the N25 from the tunnel to east of Carrigtwohill will become the N40. Perhaps there will be signs on this road giving advance warning of the N40 coming up.

niloc1951

Amtmann wrote: »

N25 being changed to N40 confirmed here.

From N22 at Ovens/EMC interchange to a point east of Carrigtwohill.

Very interesting.
So we will have primary route numbers changing as we drive along the same primary route, the only other occasions I recall seeing this happening is crossing international boundaries.
Is Cork finally being granted its own Republic status :D

Amtmann

Colm R wrote: »

I cannot imagine the N25 from the tunnel to east of Carrigtwohill will become the N40. Perhaps there will be signs on this road giving advance warning of the N25 coming up.

After re-reading it, I think you're right.

niloc1951

Colm R wrote: »

I cannot imagine the N25 from the tunnel to east of Carrigtwohill will become the N40. Perhaps there will be signs on this road giving advance warning of the N25 coming up.

Would it not be a better priority to spend what limited cash there is on fixing (re-fixing the recent crap attempt) the surface disintegration of the westbound carriageway of this section than putting the money in the pocket of Mr Rennick for a project which will do nothing for the driving experience along the said stretch of roadway.

Amtmann

I wonder what the rationale for the change is.

I think this rules out the N40 becoming a motorway in the medium term.

munchkin_utd

we definitely had our eye off the ball on this one
Here IS the definition of what the N40 is

N40
Cork Ring Road
Between its junction with N22 at Curraheen in the county of Cork and its junction with N25 at Dunkettle in the county of Cork via Ballinaspig More, Ardarostig and South Ring Road in the county of Cork: South Ring Road in the city of Cork: South Ring Road and Monfieldstown in the county of Cork.

S.I. No. 53/2012 — Roads Act 1993 (Classification of National Roads) Order 2012.
"Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in “Iris Oifigiúil” of 28th February, 2012."
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0053.html

So in total it'll only be 15km long
N40 - Cork South Ring Map

Typewriter

I would assume that the n25 will now go on to cork city via tivoli eliminating the n8.

It would make more sence for the n40 to go all the way to the model farm road roundabout via the current new bit of n22 dual carriageway. If/when the northern ring road is done the n40 would be a complete ring.

L1011

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0054.html for the Regional ones also, this should resolve any potential legal issues for the state for charging someone on an R road that existed only in signage anyway.

compared to the UK where the HA can't provide a definitive list of road numbers, this is quite efficient!

However, its missing the "R999" in Wicklow and maybe others.

etchyed

munchkin_utd wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0053.html

MYOB wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0054.html for the Regional ones...

Looks like the N32 is dead. Seems to have been reclassified as R139.

csd

It looks like the portion of the N4 inside the M50 has been reclassified a regional road too:

Dublin — Sligo
Between its junction with M50 at Palmerstown Upper in the county of South Dublin and its junction with N15 at Cartron in the borough of Sligo

/csd

L1011

Its not just the N4. The only N roads inside the M50 now are the N11 and N31!

N1/2/3/4/81 all start at the M50 according to that document; N7 was detrunked years ago.

edit: pity they didn't de-duplicate some of the N secondaries that are mostly useless since the motorways were built while they were doing this.

Storm2

munchkin_utd wrote: »

we definitely had our eye off the ball on this one
Here IS the definition of what the N40 is


S.I. No. 53/2012 — Roads Act 1993 (Classification of National Roads) Order 2012.
"Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in “Iris Oifigiúil” of 28th February, 2012."
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0053.html

So in total it'll only be 15km long
N40 - Cork South Ring Map

Technically it's still a primary as the M50 (or the N50 if you're living in 1994 ) was primary, just without the important sounding N25 number.

AugustusMinimus

I'm guessing part of the reason for changing the SRR to the N40 is that they want to classify it eventually as a motorway.