Is it any of the governments bussiness to promote the Irish language?

effluent

As far as I can ascertain it is a long term goal to create a bilingual society in Ireland (Irish-English).

I know it is culturaly important and I don't mean to sound rude, but realy is it any of their bussiness what language we decide to speak besides from english?

I just think it's not a governments role to promote languages.

What are your opinions.

Iwasfrozen

effluent wrote: »

As far as I can ascertain it is a long term goal to create a bilingual society in Ireland (Irish-English).

I know it is culturaly important and I don't mean to sound rude, but realy is it any of their bussiness what language we decide to speak besides from english?

I just think it's not a governments role to promote languages.

What are your opinions.

For course it's not, but the Irish language is backed by various potent lobby groups with a vested interest in ensuring our tax money continues to flow into these useless ventures.

For case in point op, see this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056208888

Euroland

effluent wrote: »

As far as I can ascertain it is a long term goal to create a bilingual society in Ireland (Irish-English).

I know it is culturaly important and I don't mean to sound rude, but realy is it any of their bussiness what language we decide to speak besides from english?

I just think it's not a governments role to promote languages.

What are your opinions.

In my view, this is a pure waste of our (taxpayer’s) money. I believe this is not the state business; we should leave language issues to private sector. Only the strongest languages would survive.

OhNoYouDidn't

Its a core government policy, so of course it is their business to promote it. Like healthy eating or cutting the amount of smokers.

Most countries have an official language or languages. The question you are asking is should it be policy, which has been done to death.

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

In my view, this is a pure waste of our (taxpayer’s) money. I believe this is not the state business; we should leave language issues to private sector. Only the strongest languages would survive.

What does that even mean?

Euroland

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For course it's not, but the Irish language is backed by various potent lobby groups with a vested interest in ensuring our tax money continues to flow into these useless ventures.

+100%

Iwasfrozen

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its a core government policy, so of course it is their business to promote it. Like healthy eating or cutting the amount of smokers.

Most countries have an official language or languages. The question you are asking is should it be policy, which has been done to death.

Why? Let's just do an America and have no official languages.

Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What does that even mean?

That means that Irish language, if wants to survive, should find the private sources of funding and should stop relying on taxpayer’s money.

OhNoYouDidn't

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? Let's just do an America and have no official languages.

And have interminable court cases by pro and anti Spanish speaking lobbies? No thanks.

Irish is the first language of this state as supported by the overwhelming majority since the 1920's. I agree there is a debate to be had over the way Irish is taught and the funding of it, but there is no appetite anywhere to change the official status of the language.

If you chose to speak and use the second language of the state, thats your business.

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

That means that Irish language, if wants to survive, should find the private sources of funding and should stop relying on taxpayer’s money.

How does a a concept 'chose to survive'? Cliche ridden libertarian nonsense.

Iwasfrozen

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And have interminable court cases by pro and anti Spanish speaking lobbies? No thanks.

Irish is the first language of this state as supported by the overwhelming majority since the 1920's. I agree there is a debate to be had over the way Irish is taught and the funding of it, but there is no appetite anywhere to change the official status of the language.

If you chose to speak and use the second language of the state, thats your business.

I doubt your claim that wastage in Irish language funding is overwhelming supported by the majority of the population. As for changing it's official status, no need. The government can just start using powers granted to it by Article 8.3 of the constitution.

Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If you chose to speak and use the second language of the state, thats your business.

Do you use it on a daily basis? How many hours a day?

Permabear

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OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

Do you use it on a daily basis? How many hours a day?

Yes. One maybe. Depends.

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

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Hold up. You are impying there that the state try and restrict the languages people speak.

The state support the use of the indiginious language of this island because it is considered of significant cultural value. As is their support of the arts, cinema, music and even the poxy Gah. How they do this is of course up for debate, but no-one who matters supports the abolition of Irish as the state language.

ei.sdraob

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Hold up. You are impying there that the state try and restrict the languages people speak.

I think you need to learn better English and read his post again :P

Permabear

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OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

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And if people decide their kids have no use for maths or basic literacy? Like it or not some subjects are considered compulsary. Irish is one of them. I agree that its worth looking at, but the OP isn't referring to schools, he is referring to the state having official languages.

If I decided to learn Polish, the Polish embassy have a wealth of information and assistance available to me.

Permabear wrote: »

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Again, an interesting debate that has been done to death, but not what the topic in hand is.

The official language of this state is Irish and government policy is to promote it. I, and most others, have no issue with that.

Permabear

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Euroland

Permabear wrote: »

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+100%

PatsytheNazi

Permabear wrote: »

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Then what's the agenda on just picking on Irish as a subject ? Surely if you feel that way, you also should be advocating that English ( or Maths for that matter ) aren't the business of the state ?

The difference is that while the state may subsidize classical music concerts, it does not compel people to attend classical music concerts. If people were being rounded up and herded into the National Concert Hall against their will, many people would quite obviously have a problem with that.

The state subsidize's sports organisation, but when I went to school ( which was a while ago ! ) barring getting a doctor's cert, Physical Education was compulsory.

Do you also have an issue with that ?

wow sierra

effluent wrote: »

As far as I can ascertain it is a long term goal to create a bilingual society in Ireland (Irish-English).

I know it is culturaly important and I don't mean to sound rude, but realy is it any of their bussiness what language we decide to speak besides from english?

I just think it's not a governments role to promote languages.

What are your opinions.

A major role of Government is to provide protection of minority rights within society - in this case the minority of people whose first language is Irish. They need to do this in the same way as we provide social welfare, disabled parking spaces etc, non profitable bus routes etc.

Another role is protection of our heritage, whether it be our built heritage like our castles, newgrange etc. or our ancient literature or songs etc. The language is part of our heritage and should be protected for that reason - similar to how Native American heritage or Aboriginal Australian heritage is now being protected, after years of neglect.

The increased globalisation and the spread of English is threatening the wonderful diverse cultures to be found all over the world. The language of the conqueror/the multinational is seen to be somehow superior, and speakers of it more intelligent. We need to respect and protect people whose first language isn't English whether they are from Latvia, Mexico , Africa or Conamara.

So to answer the OP question - is it the Governments Business - yes definitely.

Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes. One maybe. Depends.

Do you live in Gaeltacht area?

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

Do you live in Gaeltacht area?

No.

Permabear

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Dan_Solo

wow sierra wrote: »

A major role of Government is to provide protection of minority rights within society - in this case the minority of people whose first language is Irish. They need to do this in the same way as we provide social welfare, disabled parking spaces etc, non profitable bus routes etc.

They are protected. They can speak any language they like without fear of persecution. In fact, they are the opposite of persecuted, they get economic bonuses for speaking Irish. It's is non-Irish speakers who need protection by the state as the are discriminated against.

Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And if people decide their kids have no use for maths or basic literacy? Like it or not some subjects are considered compulsary. Irish is one of them.

In difference to math there is no practical use of Irish in the modern world, so it would be good if it becomes optional at school and the state stops funding it from the taxpayer’s money.

munchkin_utd

kids must learn history and geography at primary school also.

Both next to no use in the workplace BUT they are a basis upon which you can understand your culture, your country and the historical interaction with countries round you.

For Irish it's similar.
Neary all our placenames are derived from irish, our surnames are anglicised versions of the original Gaelic names.
A basic knowledge of irish in my opinion is absolutely essential. Even if just to know the pronouncation and other simple stuff of names and places around you.

Now, whether Irish could be considered essential to have to a HIGH level in secondary school is another kettle of fish. And the university requirement for it another. And the compulsorary status for the leaving.
But that ISNT what the thread is about.

Its about whether ANY schooling can be justified.
ANY promotion.
ANY effort at all by the government in any way shape or form.

And thats just something that I cant agree with.

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

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Come on out of that. Infantile stuff.

Children learning their native tongue in school is worthy of debate, I'll grant you that. But use of words like 'indoctrination in state approved culture' shows you have a different agenda.

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

In difference to math there is no practical use of Irish in the modern world, so it would be good if it becomes optional at school and the state stops funding it from the taxpayer’s money.

Thats an extremely narrow view of education.

Can anyone provide an example of another country where people would argue the indiginious tongue of the nation and official language of state should not be taught in schools?

Its a uniquely Irish thing to be ashamed of our identity.

Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No.

So, where do you use Irish on a daily basis at least 1 hour a day? Are you still in school?

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

So, where do you use Irish on a daily basis at least 1 hour a day? Are you still in school?

At home. In work. With some friends.

Is it that incredelious to you that people volunterialy speak Irish?

Dan_Solo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Thats an extremely narrow view of education.

Can anyone provide an example of another country where people would argue the indiginious tongue of the nation and official language of state should not be taught in schools?

Its a uniquely Irish thing to be ashamed of our identity.

It's uniquely OhNoYouDidn't to pretend people are ashamed of their identity because they don't want to be force fed it.
Your "official language of state" bit is back to the circular argument anyway, so irrelevant.

Permabear

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PatsytheNazi

Permabear wrote: »

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Oh here we go again, the Libertarian utopia of the 'free' market :rolleyes:

Slán.

Dan_Solo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Children learning their native tongue in school is worthy of debate, I'll grant you that. But use of words like 'indoctrination in state approved culture' shows you have a different agenda.

That's what you'd call being forced to learn English under British rule, so why not?

Permabear

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Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Thats an extremely narrow view of education.

Can anyone provide an example of another country where people would argue the indiginious tongue of the nation and official language of state should not be taught in schools?

Its a uniquely Irish thing to be ashamed of our identity.

There was nothing about “being ashamed of our identity”, I’m just talking from the practical/pragmatic point of view. It should be optional, so whoever cares about it would learn it separately from the mainstream education. First of all, our kids have to get the knowledge/skills they would regularly use in their lives, and only then, if they whish, can expand their knowledge towards the optional areas (i.e. Irish).

Btw, there are several countries which adopted English and now use it as a mainstream language.

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

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1%?

Please expand on that gem for me!

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

There was nothing about “being ashamed of our identity”, I’m just talking from the practical/pragmatic point of view. It should be optional, so whoever cares about it would learn it separately from the mainstream education. First of all, our kids have to get the knowledge/skills they would regularly use in their lives, and only then, if they whish, can expand their knowledge towards the optional areas (i.e. Irish).

Btw, there are several countries which adopted English and now use it as a mainstream language.

I have said before that we need to look at how Irish is taught.

But that has nothing to do with the topic in hand. Which is that we have a state language. That state language is not widely spoken. So the state have a policy of promoting it.

deise go deo

Irish is the first Official Language of the state as defined in the Constitution. As such then yes promoting Irish is very clearly the states business as confirmed by successive governments.

Now wether this should be the case is another issue, but to separate the State from the language, the language would first have to be removed from the constution.

For this there would have to be a referendum, now some people here think the position of Irish in the Constution is a backward throwback to DeV's natialistic vision of Ireland, Thats fine, but the noticable thing is that none of these people ever actually bother to do anything about it.

The question is are they passionate but lazy? Or do they just know deep down that there is no chance of such a referendum being pased?

Dan_Solo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But that has nothing to do with the topic in hand. Which is that we have a state language. That state language is not widely spoken. So the state have a policy of promoting it.

Yes, they need to promote their policies. No, it should not be a policy.
Sorted.

Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

At home. In work. With some friends.
Is it that incredelious to you that people volunterialy speak Irish?

No, it’ is just so unusual. I can hear Irish only once every few years on the Dublin streets. Only once I heard a person speaking Irish at work on the phone, calling to his family living in the Gaeltacht area. Otherwise, there is no Irish in Dublin average daily life.

Permabear

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Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

The question is are they passionate but lazy? Or do they just know deep down that there is no chance of such a referendum being pased?

They just know deep down that there is no chance of such a referendum being held due to vested interest interference more like.

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

No, it’ is just so unusual. I can hear Irish only once every few years on the Dublin streets. Only once I heard a person speaking Irish at work on the phone, calling to his family living in the Gaeltacht area. Otherwise, there is no Irish in Dublin average daily life.

That YOU are involved in. Loads going on in Dublin for those who speak or want to try and speak Irish.

I have no particular interest in basketball. But I don't deny there is a vibrant basketball scene in Dublin...

deise go deo

Euroland wrote: »

No, it’ is just so unusual. I can hear Irish only once every few years on the Dublin streets. Only once I heard a person speaking Irish at work on the phone, calling to his family living in the Gaeltacht area. Otherwise, there is no Irish in Dublin average daily life.

Perhaps you just dont recognise it when you hear it? There are several thousand kids in Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaisteanna all over the city, as well as active Cumann Gaelachs in the Universities with a further 3500 or so members.

Its not that unusual if you know where to look;)

Euroland

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I have said before that we need to look at how Irish is taught.

But that has nothing to do with the topic in hand. Which is that we have a state language. That state language is not widely spoken. So the state have a policy of promoting it.

Considering current state of public finances, the government has to prioritize money spending, and, a guess, Irish shouldn’t be the government’s priority.

Euroland

deise go deo wrote: »

Perhaps you just dont recognise it when you hear it? There are several thousand kids in Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaisteanna all over the city, as well as active Cumann Gaelachs in the Universities with a further 3500 or so members.

Its not that unusual if you know where to look;)

I do now about Irish being taught at those schools, but I never get across with it in my daily life.

I was talking about an average person on the street and not about someone who is intentionally looking for Irish clubs/education centers/etc.

OhNoYouDidn't

Euroland wrote: »

Considering current state of public finances, the government has to prioritize money spending, and, a guess, Irish shouldn’t be the government’s priority.

For the fifth and final time, I don't disagree that the teaching of Irish in schools should be looked at.

But the fact that no political parties or movements at any point in the history of the state have looked at this should probably tell you that this isn't a burning issue. Most people are happy that their kids learn Irish in school and that the state conducts some business in Irish.

deise go deo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They just know deep down that there is no chance of such a referendum being held due to vested interest interference more like.

Well how they expect a referendum to be held if there is no one asking for one is beyond me. If there is enough people that actually want such a referendum to take place it should be possible to demenstrate.

How about starting an online petition? There is nothing any vested interest can do about that. If there is support for such a referendum you should have no problem getting enough people to sign a petition to show a need for a referendum.

Whats the worst that could happen if you try? Other than being shown that there really is no support for a referendum that is.