Caught by the Fuzz

StaggerLee

Hi All,

I was pulled over this morning for breaking a pedestrian light. I have no argument, I was guilty, the guy even showed me on his camera.

Now he took my name and address and I showed him my driving license for ID. He said there would be a summons for court in the post. I asked what the fine would be and he said I would likely get an endorsement on my driving licesne. Now, what if one doesn't have a driving license, and having a driving license isn't a pre-requisite for cycling.

What usually happens in these cases?

Lumen

You can still accrue points on a driving licence you don't have.

At such time as you get a licence it comes with the endorsements frozen in time.

Where was it, btw?

Offy

Lumen wrote: »

You can still accrue points on a driving licence you don't have.

At such time as you get a licence it comes with the endorsements frozen in time.

Where was it, btw?

What happens if you clock up loads of points on your bike? Can they stop you cycling?

Jawgap

Doubt you'll get points - even though potentially you could.

Fine will be the most likely outcome.

StaggerLee

Between Artane and Killester, at a set of those pedestiran light which go red, even when theres no pedestrians.

But what if you never get a license?

Lumen

StaggerLee wrote: »

But what if you never get a license?

Then there's no issue, points-wise. A driving licence is a driving license.

StaggerLee

Whats the standard fine for this kind of thing?

Cookie_Monster

What a waste of court time. A simple on the spot fine should effectively deal with the above situation and be dealt with in 5 mins, rather than ~30 mins in court for something so minor...

07Lapierre

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What a waste of court time. A simple on the spot fine should effectively deal with the above situation and be dealt with in 5 mins, rather than ~30 mins in court for something so minor...

On the spot fines are not much of a deterrant are they? Having to take time off work, go to court and pay a fine, might make people think twice about doing it again. No?

C3PO

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What a waste of court time. A simple on the spot fine should effectively deal with the above situation and be dealt with in 5 mins, rather than ~30 mins in court for something so minor...

In fairness to the Garda I think that's what they would prefer too but that's not an option they currently have!
One of the lads I cycle with was recently fined €200 for the same offence!

Mr. Presentable

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What a waste of court time. A simple on the spot fine should effectively deal with the above situation and be dealt with in 5 mins, rather than ~30 mins in court for something so minor...

Agreed on the waste of Court time. But it's the offender who is wasting it, not the Garda. Maybe a half day lost to Court would have a better impact on the offender than a fine alone - I know it would for me!

Lumen

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Agreed on the waste of Court time. But it's the offender who is wasting it, not the Garda. Maybe a half day lost to Court would have a better impact on the offender than a fine alone - I know it would for me!

From a few recent threads the M.O. seems to be that the Garda doesn't turn up, therefore the cyclist gets off without the fine but wastes half a day, and neither court nor Gardai time is taken up.

This happened to me with an alleged speeding offence, where I had to go all the way down to Enniscorthy DC. The case was dismissed as the Garda didn't turn up, and at the time I felt quite pleased, but in retrospect...

StaggerLee

I would rather the fine alright, but €200 is a bit steep. So thinking about, couple of points on my license would be the best outcome for me at this point.

I have learned my lesson, I wont be doing it again, same cant be said for the dozens of cyclists going past me at lights afterwards though.

C3PO

StaggerLee wrote: »

I would rather the fine alright, but €200 is a bit steep. So thinking about, couple of points on my license would be the best outcome for me at this point.

I have learned my lesson, I wont be doing it again, same cant be said for the dozens of cyclists going past me at lights afterwards though.

Unfortunately I think points usually accompany a fine rather than replace one!
I have to say I'm as as guilty as anyone else of this particular offence, particularly on group rides when a lot of the guys I ride with treat red lights as "advisory"! So you either go with them or get dropped ..... of course if I was a "Man of Principle" rather than a wimp ....!

niceonetom

Is there a legislative mechanism (or whatever a by-the-book procedure should be called) in place to endorse drivers licences for non-driving offences? Or is it something a judge can do without such a mechanism? Because if it's the latter I'm not comfortable with the arbitrariness of it. Why not points on your licence for offences committed while walking? Or roller-blading? Or for evading tax? No TV licence? Ok, points on your drivers licence then... why not? It's just blurring the lines between one activity and another unnecessarily.

I'd be more in favour of on-the-spot fines - court time should not be wasted on trifling misbehaviour like this whether the guard shows up or not. If the fines are sufficient they'll be a deterrent.

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

Is there a legislative mechanism (or whatever a by-the-book procedure should be called) in place to endorse drivers licences for non-driving offences? Or is it something a judge can do without such a mechanism? Because if it's the latter I'm not comfortable with the arbitrariness of it. Why not points on your licence for offences committed while walking? Or roller-blading? Or for evading tax? No TV licence? Ok, points on your drivers licence then... why not? It's just blurring the lines between one activity and another unnecessarily.

I think the idea is that since you're passed a theory exam and driving test, breaking the ROTR can only be a deliberate act of illegality.

You can't break the ROTR by watching TV, unless it's in your car.

That said, I welcome your Supreme Court challenge to this absurd overreach of authority.

trad

Penalty points refer to driving offences only.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

I think the idea is that since you're passed a theory exam and driving test, breaking the ROTR can only be a deliberate act of illegality.

So any cyclist who, say, breaks the lights and doesn't have a drivers licence can plead ignorance as to the purpose of traffic lights? C'mon.

Once you start using the drivers licence points as a proxy for cash fines for non-driving offences the system seems to blur the lines between activities for which you need a licence (driving) and activities for which you don't (everything else). I don't see why this is beneficial to anyone (except, possible car insurance companies looking to up their premiums). Licence points shouldn't a a proxy money, especially for people who may have a licence but do not drive - that just side steps actual punishment. Secondly, judges shouldn't be free to treat all road behaviour as if the miscreant was driving even if they weren't because that's plainly absurd.

Lastly, I'm genuinely interested to know whether this points for non-drivers thing is on the books or is at the whim of our judges. Judges entertaining their whims is bad.

C3PO

http://rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/new_penpoints_chart_apl09.pdf

Not sure how current this is but here's the RSAs list!

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

So any cyclist who, say, breaks the lights and doesn't have a drivers licence can plead ignorance as to the purpose of traffic lights? C'mon.

That's not the point. The point is that by breaking red lights you're demonstrating a specific lack of judgement relating to use of the road, which is relevant to your holding a driving license.

niceonetom wrote: »

Lastly, I'm genuinely interested to know whether this points for non-drivers thing is on the books or is at the whim of our judges. Judges entertaining their whims is bad.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-2228117.html

"Robert Pierse, the author of Road Traffic Law in Ireland, which is now in its fourth edition and a required source for lawyers involved in road traffic cases, said the judge was perfectly entitled to impose a driving ban for a cycling offence."

victorcarrera

Were there any other witnesses to this offense.
Pedestrians maybe.??
If it goes to trial mention this in a nice kind of way and they may show leniency.
"While I was cycling with due care and attention etc".

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

That's not the point. The point is that by breaking red lights you're demonstrating a specific lack of judgement relating to use of the road, which is relevant to your holding a driving license.

In that case why limit this extension of notional driving to just cycling? Should "road use" also include walking? Any misbehaviour on that footpath and AXA will be due more money...

...or we could just punish people for the crimes they actually commit and not make inferences from one situation to another in order to comply with a completely driver-centric world view?

Or, if consistency is the nail this hangs from, shouldn't driving bans extend to bicycles too? It is road use after all. Too many points on your licence - hand over than Cervélo.

Lumen wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-2228117.html

"Robert Pierse, the author of Road Traffic Law in Ireland, which is now in its fourth edition and a required source for lawyers involved in road traffic cases, said the judge was perfectly entitled to impose a driving ban for a cycling offence."

He may think so (though he doesn't seem to say he's in favour or against judges having this entitlement). His opinion isn't law though, even if he did help write the legislation.

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

In that case why limit this extension of notional driving to just cycling? Should "road use" also include walking? Any misbehaviour on that footpath and AXA will be due more money...

...or we could just punish people for the crimes they actually commit and not make inferences from one situation to another in order to comply with a completely driver-centric world view?

Or, if consistency is the nail this hangs from, shouldn't driving bans extend to bicycles too? It is road use after all. Too many points on your licence - hand over than Cervélo.

Don't be lumping pedestrians in with cyclists. That way lies the footpad.

This is really very simple. People who break the ROTR should be kept away from the controls of multi-tonne vehicles.

This isn't a driver-centric view of the world; none of this matters if you don't drive, since a licence is not required to cycle or walk.

niceonetom wrote: »

He may think so (though he doesn't seem to say he's in favour or against judges having this entitlement). His opinion isn't law though, even if he did help write the legislation.

My argument was an appeal to authority, since I can't be bothered to research the legislation myself. Off you go...

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

Don't be lumping pedestrians in with cyclists. That way lies the footpad.

Only if you stop lumping cyclists in with drivers. In case you have missed my general argument here, I'm against lumping. By nature, I am a splitter.

Chips Lovell

Does getting and endorsement on your licence = penalty points?

My understanding was that penalty points can't be imposed for cycling offences.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

Does getting and endorsement on your licence = penalty points?

As I understand the terminology, penalty points are one form of licence endorsement. The other being a ban.

diarmuid79

I bet you never get a summons, he was only giving you the frighteners. I have never heard of cyclist getting penalty points. Penalty points are only for MPV's so dont worry.:eek:

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

Does getting and endorsement on your licence = penalty points?

My understanding was that penalty points can't be imposed for cycling offences.

Appears not... from CitizensInformation.ie

Penalties on conviction for motoring offences depend on the severity of the offences and on whether or not they are repeated offences. Penalties can include monetary fines, endorsement of driving license, disqualification from driving for life, and in the most serious cases, imprisonment. In addition a penalty points system is in place for certain motoring offences. A list of motoring offences that attract penalty points is here.

-so does that mean that it'll raise your insurance premium? If so how long do they last for? Can you be a reckless 18yo on a bike, and get loads of endorsements build up before you ever go near a car?

I'm mostly with Tom on this one, it's a stupid thing to endorse a driving license (in potentia) for a cycling offense

TinyExplosions

oh dear...

Endorsements remain on your licence record for 3 years and must be notified to your insurance company when applying for motor insurance. Endorsements on your licence record will often lead to an increase in your motor insurance premium. Second or subsequent endorsements often result in disqualification from driving.

So if you don't get a license for three years, you are completely in the clear, or does the endorsement start the moment you potentially get a license?

Could you get yourself banned from driving before you even start?

These are the kind of questions that make this a thorny area I'd say...

Lumen

TinyExplosions wrote: »

So if you don't get a license for three years, you are completely in the clear, or does the endorsement start the moment you potentially get a license?

The latter.

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Could you get yourself banned from driving before you even start?

I think so, in theory. I have a speeding endorsement on the Irish license I don't have yet, so I'm told.

Chips Lovell

What I'm saying is that unless the judge decides to ban him from driving (which is unlikely) I don't think there's legislation there to allow points for cycling. Other countries have this, but AFAIK we don't.

I suspect the guard was mistaken and that if it does go to court, it will be the usual €200 fine.

TinyExplosions

Lumen wrote: »

The latter.

I think so, in theory. I have a speeding endorsement on the Irish license I don't have yet, so I'm told.

So you commit an offense on the bike, and they put an endorsement on a non-existent license that's supposed to last for three years, but if you don't apply for one for 4 years, you've essentially received a 7 year endorsement? That sounds like it could be shaky from a legal standpoint no?

branners69

07Lapierre wrote: »

On the spot fines are not much of a deterrant are they? Having to take time off work, go to court and pay a fine, might make people think twice about doing it again. No?

I agree the on the spot fine of say €50 wouldnt be much a deterrent initially but if you were to get caught 5 or 6 times you would soon get the message. The cops would also clean up until people got the message. It would also stop the courts getting clogged up with pointless cases!

Also imagine how many cyclists would be done each day, 1,000's!!

Lumen

TinyExplosions wrote: »

So you commit an offense on the bike, and they put an endorsement on a non-existent license that's supposed to last for three years, but if you don't apply for one for 4 years, you've essentially received a 7 year endorsement? That sounds like it could be shaky from a legal standpoint no?

I don't know about cycling offences, and I don't intend to claim my endorsed Irish license any time soon, but those are the rules as I understand them.

The point is that the endorsement applies to the time that you hold the license, so if you don't hold the licence yet the endorsement is put on hold. Or else there would be no punishment.

Jaysoose

branners69 wrote: »

I agree the on the spot fine of say €50 wouldnt be much a deterrent initially but if you were to get caught 5 or 6 times you would soon get the message. The cops would also clean up until people got the message. It would also stop the courts getting clogged up with pointless cases!

Also imagine how many cyclists would be done each day, 1,000's!!

i would have though the having to take time off work and go to court would be a much bigger deterrant due to the hassle involved and having to sit in court with a load of scangers would put anybody off going through red lights etc.

Undercover Elephant

07Lapierre wrote: »

On the spot fines are not much of a deterrant are they? Having to take time off work, go to court and pay a fine, might make people think twice about doing it again. No?

It might be better if they gave small on the spot fines but actually enforced the rules more than once in a blue moon.

OP - the guards in the area were in a right bad mood this morning. Saw the same squad car booking two different motorists on Sybil Hill Road within half an hour.

Diarmuid

Jaysoose wrote: »

i would have though the having to take time off work and go to court would be a much bigger deterrant due to the hassle involved and having to sit in court with a load of scangers would put anybody off going through red lights etc.

Why not apply the same logic to speeding and using the phone while driving offences?

El.duderino

l must admit with all garda chat here. It Has changed way I regard junction/lights etc. Mainly because I cannot afford a fine and need my licence for work.

This weekend I saw a man with two small children, all no helmets sail through a red light junction. Woman on mobile in middle of road finding it tough to multi-task. Stopped at painfull amount of lights coming into town from northside. Gritted teeth I wait as a SS hipster breaks numerous lights. I pass him. Red light I stop. He breaks it again, I pass again and so on.. From Smithfield to harolds cross. These are lads that need to be fined. Cops of boards! Spread the word No fines for jersey wearing cyclists!

07Lapierre

I think the Garda should take an on the spot fine of say €100 from a cyclist who breaks a red light. Then he should wait at the same location a few minutes (Out of sight naturally) and give the €100 to the next cyclist that stops at a red light. Why does it always have to be a "stick"? why not introdue a "carrot" to reward law abiding cyclists?




(Yeah I know...It'll never happen)

cdaly_

Lumen wrote: »

I think so, in theory. I have a speeding endorsement on the Irish license I don't have yet, so I'm told.

Are you currently on a UK license? I'd suggest you get the irish license pronto and carry on using the UK one until the endorsement disappears...

Inquitus

cdaly_ wrote: »

Are you currently on a UK license? I'd suggest you get the irish license pronto and carry on using the UK one until the endorsement disappears...

There are no points kept on record if you have a UK License. I got nabbed speeding coming out of the port tunnel a couple of years back, rang them up and was told I merely had to pay the penalty fine and that was the end of the matter.

Cookie_Monster

07Lapierre wrote: »

Why does it always have to be a "stick"? why not introdue a "carrot" to reward law abiding cyclists?

but why should you need incentive to obey the law, your moral compass should oblige you to do so anyway

yeah, i know that doesn't happen either

Beasty

cdaly_ wrote: »

Are you currently on a UK license? I'd suggest you get the irish license pronto and carry on using the UK one until the endorsement disappears...

You need to surrender your UK licence to get an Irish one (unless you want to take a test again!)

Inquitus wrote: »

There are no points kept on record if you have a UK License. I got nabbed speeding coming out of the port tunnel a couple of years back, rang them up and was told I merely had to pay the penalty fine and that was the end of the matter.

This is due to change - they are supposed to be introducing mutual arrangements to recognise offences committed in the UK under Irish licences and vice versa

studiorat

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but why should you need incentive to obey the law, your moral compass should oblige you to do so anyway

yeah, i know that doesn't happen either

What have morals got to do with the law?

Highway_To_Hell

Totally off topic

Every time I see the thread title I think of the joke I heard when in primary school...

When a prostitute was asked if she had ever been picked up by the fuzz? her reply was "No, but I have been swung by the tits a few times"...

I will get me coat now and let the rest of you get back on topic

07Lapierre

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but why should you need incentive to obey the law, your moral compass should oblige you to do so anyway

yeah, i know that doesn't happen either

Fair enough. (But I'd still take the €100)

muad_dib77

Highway_To_Hell wrote: »

Totally off topic

Every time I see the thread title I think of the joke I heard when in primary school...

When a prostitute was asked if she had ever been picked up by the fuzz? her reply was "No, but I have been swung by the tits a few times"...

I will get me coat now and let the rest of you get back on topic

(Off Topic)
PMSL!!

I was thinking.."Jaysus, that's gotta hurt! - Surely a spot of trimming will prevent that happening again."

yours i way better though..


(On Topic)
For what it's worth

I got done for speeding a while back..on my Danish License..I got a letter, a fine AND two points!

Apparently what they do is they keep a record of the license number, and once you've accumulated your 12 points they whup your bottom and take the license off you.

As for cycling vs. driving offences & getting the points or not - I think they all fall under the common denominator of "Traffic Violations".

I could be wrong though.

Stop, Wait until the green man blows!

Lumen

muad_dib77 wrote: »

Apparently what they do is they keep a record of the license number, and once you've accumulated your 12 points they whup your bottom and take the license off you.

The Irish judicial system has no power to take away your Danish licence, although I think you can still be banned from Irish roads which amounts to the same thing if you live here.

cyclingedd

I rode through a red pedestrian light at stormont in Belfast at 6am a few years back and was then followed down the road by a meat waggon with 6 or 8 guys in the back with machine guns.... I'm not kidding, they pulled infront of me asked me where I was going and then sent me on my way. Intimidation never stopped me ;-)

Lumen

cyclingedd wrote: »

I rode through a red pedestrian light at stormont in Belfast at 6am a few years back and was then followed down the road by a meat waggon with 6 or 8 guys in the back with machine guns....

Useless off-topic fact of the day: Stormont has the best playground in Ireland.

Bunnyhopper

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think the Garda should take an on the spot fine of say €100 from a cyclist who breaks a red light. Then he should wait at the same location a few minutes (Out of sight naturally) and give the €100 to the next cyclist that stops at a red light. Why does it always have to be a "stick"? why not introdue a "carrot" to reward law abiding cyclists?




(Yeah I know...It'll never happen)

They sort of tried that in Sweden for speed controls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iynzHWwJXaA