Auto Vs Manual?

The Pontiac

It makes me think, what exactly is the point of manuals? In America they simply don't use them. It does seem a bit pointless the more I think of it. The car surely knows what gear it's supposed to be in, particularly in this day and age with the technology we have.

Or maybe it's better to be in control. Do you really need a big engine car for it to be an auto?

I only ever drove an auto once while on holidays in Canada and it was pretty cool.

Tigger

Auto boxes don't know what gear you want they know what gear suits the speed and they have a kick down

If yer current driving has no 5th - 3rd or 4th - 2nd changes then ago is fine

Nissan doctor

Manuals are becoming more and more popular all the time in America, especially in anything performance orientated. All the best muscle cars from the 60's and 70's were manual.

Modern autos haved moved the game on but in general, a manual is still more economical, allows engine braking and required less maintenance.


Now there is more in the mix too though with dual clutch gearboxes etc

Matt Simis

<Ollie> wrote: »

It makes me think, what exactly is the point of manuals?

Auto's are boring, manuals are not. Manuals let me hover about in strange (to the car) gears as I know there is a tractor I want to overtake up ahead and I want to be at 4400rpm.
Autos have Torque Convertors that like to lock and unlock when it feels like, manuals have a clutch pedal that I control.

Autos have their uses, but as a human I have eyes and other senses an ECU/TCU simply doesnt have. Though for A:B pottering about pleb driving, Autos are fine.

PS: As Nissan doctor says, Manuals are nicer to work with when tuning as its simple enough to just get an uprated Clutch when boosting BHP, Autos effectively cap tuning potential.

Reloc8

I'm against them (autos) for me personally.

Only two reason's I can think of is :

1) I like driving and manuals mean more engagement with the driving.

2) My dad swears by autos.

(not that autos are dad cars. It's a 'my dad' thing)

gazmic1

I was driiving an auto for about 5 years while I had a manual as a work van. It was a v6 2l maxima very comforable and auto suited the car. It would drink the juice tho. I.m just driving the van now and don't miss the auto at all. There is pros and cons for both.

AT the end of the day I think the manual is more fun and more economical and prob he better car for it.

Senna

Depends on the car too. I just bought an e300 with an auto box and it suits it nicely. But i'm in the market for an MR2 and wouldn't dream of buying an auto.

Dempsey

Taxis in big cities with alot of traffics jams/lights will probably benefit from auto boxes, certainly easier on the driver doing 8hr+ driving everyday but "normal driving", manual all the way!

Stinicker

Manuals are a waste of time and will be consigned to the dust bin of history this century.

I drive an Auto and they are far far superior, I would say that Manuals are only for tractors but all modern tractors are nearly semi-auto and have alot of the clutching taken out. Many Motorway fleets of Lorrys are Auto now too and Manual cars are as a result of Ireland being the poor relation and the typical paddy spec car shovelled in here and our leftwing tax the hell out of everything attitude. €1.50 fuel to appease the green communists.

Most people have never driven autos but most people who do and get into it for a bit of time will all agree they are easier and safer to drive, and most if they could magically transform their Manual box would.

Problems with Automatics in the past saw them strapped onto small engined cars and they were both very thirsty and underwhelming. The modern Auto is a different beast and VW's DSG (Auto clutch) has been a game changer.

Automatic will always win.

ottostreet

Matt Simis hit it on the head...Autos are boring, manuals are fun.

I don't care how cars with savage auto gearboxes are great, I don't care about clever clutch systems, I'll just take a manual for the fun factor please.

If manual selection of gears is good enough for Formula 1 & WRC and Le Mans, its good enough for me!

Dempsey

ottostreet wrote: »

Matt Simis hit it on the head...Autos are boring, manuals are fun.

I don't care how cars with savage auto gearboxes are great, I don't care about clever clutch systems, I'll just take a manual for the fun factor please.

If manual selection of gears is good enough for Formula 1 & WRC and Le Mans, its good enough for me!

I'd class the gear changing in F1 as semi auto, they use paddles. Not 100% sure about WRC or Le Mans but yea manual for the petrolheads

Tragedy

F1, wrc and most racing uses sequential gearboxes right?

Which is more similar in usage to a semi-auto than a standard manual gearbox?

x in the city

<Ollie> wrote: »

It makes me think, what exactly is the point of manuals? In America they simply don't use them. It does seem a bit pointless the more I think of it. The car surely knows what gear it's supposed to be in, particularly in this day and age with the technology we have.

Or maybe it's better to be in control. Do you really need a big engine car for it to be an auto?

I only ever drove an auto once while on holidays in Canada and it was pretty cool.

autos are for people with advanced stages of arthritis

real motor heads need a manual to drive a car 'normally', mecrs and bmw's with autos are for pussies.


that is all!

ottostreet

Dempsey wrote: »

I'd class the gear changing in F1 as semi auto, they use paddles. Not 100% sure about WRC or Le Mans but yea manual for the petrolheads

Tragedy wrote: »

F1, wrc and most racing uses sequential gearboxes right?

Which is more similar in usage to a semi-auto than a standard manual gearbox?

They are sequential, that's why I said manual selection of gears, rather than true manual. As in, the drivers do have a choice over what gear they are in, even if they have to go through another gear to get to it. I suppose I should have clarified my reasoning a bit better!

challengemaster

<Ollie> wrote: »

In America they simply don't use them. .

And...in america...

Guy:Incognito

Again the usual garbage being spouted about auto's.

Jesus christ, the vast vast majority of cars on the road are used to cart people from A-B and not for bloody rallying. The vast majority of whats left are also used for getting from A-B but the drivers fool themsleves in to thinking they are rally drivers and they are "engageing" themselves in the driving experience.

I drove a Safrane with an ancient 4 speed Nissan Auto box that I had no issues with and could make go up and down gears the way I wanted it to.

But of course the average commuter on here knows better than the likes of Ferrari what is needed to get the best from a modern day supercar.

There is no advantage to a manual over an auto for all but a very few drivers, despite what the rest would liek to think.

Average driver on a challenging road will make quicker progress in an auto than the same car equipped with a manual transmission. To think otherwise is arse biscuits. To think one is substantially above average driving skill to make quicker progress in a manual is also arse biscuits in 95% of cases encountered :pac:

For and against both, I've had 2 auto cars and 8 manuals along with a manual company car, both of the autos were perfectly fine (Prelude and the ZT). Wouldn't fancy a small petrol engined manual like a 1.4 Astra or anything like that though.

Wouldn't have a preference either way for whatever I buy next, odds are it will be manual as most of the stuff I'd be looking at would be manuals unless I go for a luxo barge Lexus or 7 series.

ottostreet

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Again the usual garbage being spouted about auto's.

Jesus christ, the vast vast majority of cars on the road are used to cart people from A-B and not for bloody rallying. The vast majority of whats left are also used for getting from A-B but the drivers fool themsleves in to thinking they are rally drivers and they are "engageing" themselves in the driving experience.

I drove a Safrane with an ancient 4 speed Nissan Auto box that I had no issues with and could make go up and down gears the way I wanted it to.

But of course the average commuter on here knows better than the likes of Ferrari what is needed to get the best from a modern day supercar.

There is no advantage to a manual over an auto for all but a very few drivers, despite what the rest would liek to think.

For me, it's nothing to do with 'advantages' or 'disadvantages', its about what I enjoy. I enjoy having control over gears. I enjoy having the option of throwing the car into third going around a long bend and accelerating out of it nicely. I enjoy having the option of forcing my car into first gear while doing 75mph on the motorway and destroying my engine. I feel lost driving an auto/tiptronic. I have a decent tiptronic car in immaculate condition parked outside my house, while every day, I am going online looking for the same car as a manual. As long as I enjoy driving, I will not drive an automatic.

ottostreet

ottostreet wrote: »

I enjoy having the option of throwing the car into third going around a long bend and accelerating out of it nicely.

You can do that in any semi decent auto, as you know :P

ottostreet

RoverJames wrote: »

You can do that in any semi decent auto, as you know :P

Yeah, but its not the same! I have/had two FTOs recently also, one tiptronic GX, one manual GPX. The GPX was faster, had more pleasant pull, and was easier on petrol than the GX. Even using the GX in tip mode was just...awful, I refuse to drive it, and I just use the 1.3 Colt sitting alongside. The GX even looks the business, but no...sorry, I can't do it, it's just an awful driving experience.

Esel

I refuse to post in this thread.

lomb

The manuals are vastly better in anything engaging I would say. I wouldn't dream of say getting a ferrari, porsche , audi r8 or tt in anything other than manual. The mechanical pleasure of snicking a gear into place and feeling a clutch engage has to be worth something.
Having said that semi auto boxes are good with true clutches like the DSG with steering paddles. Seems to give the best of both worlds. Still wouldnt want one in any of the above though.
Old style slush boxes aren't great at all and use up the fuel and don't give good engine breaking.

Mr Benevolent

If you take two identical cars, one manual and one auto, the auto would get to 102kph faster with the same driver. 0-102 times are meaningless in a manual, no normal driver could possibly get through the gears fast enough.

Most good autos will be able to select the gear you want. Personally I believe that the only disadvantage older autos have is higher fuel consumption.

I wouldn't dream of say getting a ferrari, porsche , audi r8 or tt in anything other than manual. The mechanical pleasure of snicking a gear into place and feeling a clutch engage has to be worth something.

Ferrari don't use manuals any more. Neither do Porsche or Audi (for the R8). Your argument is outdated by quite a few years.

rebecca 30

I drive a 1.2 auto corsa and wouldnt dream of going back to a manual , This is my 5th auto, and I only use about €50 per month on petrol, there great for driving around the city,

maddness

Autos are like boobs. I really like boobs.
Manuals are like bums. I just prefer bums:D

lomb

lomb wrote: »

The manuals are vastly better in anything engaging I would say. I wouldn't dream of say getting a ferrari, porsche , audi r8 or tt in anything other than manual.

LOl at the inclusion of a TT there.

Reloc8

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Jesus christ, the vast vast majority of cars on the road are used to cart people from A-B and not for bloody rallying. The vast majority of whats left are also used for getting from A-B but the drivers fool themsleves in to thinking they are rally drivers and they are "engageing" themselves in the driving experience.

I drove a Safrane with an ancient 4 speed Nissan Auto box that I had no issues with and could make go up and down gears the way I wanted it to.

But of course the average commuter on here knows better than the likes of Ferrari what is needed to get the best from a modern day supercar.

There is no advantage to a manual over an auto for all but a very few drivers, despite what the rest would liek to think.

Why so touchy ?

That was my phrase. I'm not a deluded rally driver and I'm not on a campaign against autos nor am I fooling myself.

I never said there was a general advantage to a manual over an auto, just that I prefer the former.

Just because I don't drive eh a modern supercar doesn't mean I'm not having a driving experience, which I prefer in a nice manual.

Simples

inforfun

My ifrst car was an auto and at that time it was perfect.
Had to do a daily commute from the south side of the city i lived in to the northern part, straight through the city centre.
In that kind of traffic it is really no contest. Auto will always win it for me.

Then i arrived here, made trips in the west of Ireland on narrow, bendy roads and manual is just more fun then.

So for me:
Daily drives > auto
Fun drives > manual

lomb

RoverJames wrote: »

LOl at the inclusion of a TT there.

Should have said the RS only, the others don't qualify-- with a remappable 340bhp, 4 wheel drive and 0-60 of 4.6 seconds it probably qualifies as a mini supercar. I think it would be as fast or faster than a C4 911?

keithclancy

Autos are fine for Driving in City and Motorway.

Manual is more fun for back roads etc.

A Rental just isn't the same when you can't rev the balls off it.

Also you can't push start an Auto

lomb

Confab wrote: »

If you take two identical cars, one manual and one auto, the auto would get to 102kph faster with the same driver. 0-102 times are meaningless in a manual, no normal driver could possibly get through the gears fast enough.

Most good autos will be able to select the gear you want. Personally I believe that the only disadvantage older autos have is higher fuel consumption.



Ferrari don't use manuals any more. Neither do Porsche or Audi (for the R8). Your argument is outdated by quite a few years.

Porsche definately do a manual as do audi in the R8 http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911/911-carrera-4s/featuresandspecs/
You are correct ferrari dont seem to do a manual on their 458 after a quick browse of their site.

The fact that rich businessmen who buy them for ego rather than technical excellence in auto than manual is their problem. Of course that is my opinion only:D I would never buy a merc in manual so autos have their place definately.

keithclancy

lomb wrote: »

Porsche definately do a manual as do audi in the R8 http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911/911-carrera-4s/featuresandspecs/
You are correct ferrari dont seem to do a manual on their 458 after a quick browse of their site.

The fact that rich businessmen who buy them for ego rather than technical excellence in auto than manual is their problem. Of course that is my opinion only:D I would never buy a merc in manual so autos have their place definately.

I saw a Manual E Class once... was like .. wtf

enfant terrible

RoverJames wrote: »

LOl at the inclusion of a TT there.

What's wrong with TT's?

enfant terrible

enfant terrible wrote: »

What's wrong with TT's?

Bring one to a Ferrari, R8 or Porsche meet
That was my point.

To answer your question, what's right with them :pac:

enfant terrible

RoverJames wrote: »

Bring one to a Ferrari, R8 or Porsche meet
That was my point.

To answer your question, what's right with them :pac:

I like em. (new type)

Matt Simis

Confab wrote: »

If you take two identical cars, one manual and one auto, the auto would get to 102kph faster with the same driver. 0-102 times are meaningless in a manual, no normal driver could possibly get through the gears fast enough.

0-102kph are effectively meaningless after a point in every car.

Confab wrote: »

Ferrari don't use manuals any more. Neither do Porsche or Audi (for the R8). Your argument is outdated by quite a few years.

And your argument isnt as solid as you think!

The last M5 was available with a Manual in America only due to the interest in "enjoying" the driving that dictates manuals are more suited there.
The Audi R8 launched and available with a Lamborghini 6speed manual.
Porsche design everything with supreme track/benchmark performance in mind (where the auto likely can do repeatable good performance) and they invented Tiptronic, so its not reasonable to expect them to tout manuals with much gusto.


The pro-manual arguments are generally around the enjoyment of driving. I dont care a good DSG is faster than me 0-60. Yes Guy:Incognito I think the "drivers" on here do know better than Ferrari etc on whats more enjoyable to them.. There is a also the tangent of thought that very few car/driving enthusiasts actually buy Ferrari's (new anyway) so its irrelevant what some millionaire golden spoon child in Monte Carlo wants to drive (hence driving design decisions for sports cars).


PS: I have a Tip Auto now (in a V8) and had 4 over the last 4years. I also have 2 manuals and lots of them over the years too.

lomb

RoverJames wrote: »

Bring one to a Ferrari, R8 or Porsche meet
That was my point.

To answer your question, what's right with them :pac:

Point is you wouldn't bring a TT to a Porsche, or Ferrari meet. Theres loads of TT meets in the UK based around modding of the old and new TTs.

gazmic1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Again the usual garbage being spouted about auto's.

Jesus christ, the vast vast majority of cars on the road are used to cart people from A-B and not for bloody rallying. The vast majority of whats left are also used for getting from A-B but the drivers fool themsleves in to thinking they are rally drivers and they are "engageing" themselves in the driving experience.

I drove a Safrane with an ancient 4 speed Nissan Auto box that I had no issues with and could make go up and down gears the way I wanted it to.

But of course the average commuter on here knows better than the likes of Ferrari what is needed to get the best from a modern day supercar.

There is no advantage to a manual over an auto for all but a very few drivers, despite what the rest would liek to think.

ECONOMY

lomb

lomb wrote: »

Point is you wouldn't bring a TT to a Porsche, or Ferrari meet. Theres loads of TT meets in the UK based around modding of the old and new TTs.

Nope

This is the point

lomb wrote: »

Should have said the RS only, the others don't qualify--

:P

keithclancy

Thought about it a bit more,

I only enjoy an Auto with a larger engine, mainly because you have lots of power and can just mash your foot to the floor.

A small engine, 1.4 - 2 litre, you can drop a gear when the conditions merit.

For the real world every day driving its a trade off, the Manual will be a few thousand cheaper than the Auto and get better fuel economy.

If I had the spare cash I'd have a big Auto Mercedes E380 for commuting, hands down and a Soft top Mazda MX5 for the weekends

One isnt necessarily better than the other, but a small engined auto is terrible, even this DSG Gearbox rubbish, pretty smooth but its not psychic, but it can't see where your driving (Snow/Ice for example)

For the moment i'm stuck with a 2.0 D Volvo V50 becuase its gets 5 litres/100km and I drive 1000km / week, if it was a heavily congested route I would have bought an Auto.

A Jaguar XK for example is a complete chocolate fireguard if theres any snow/ice.

keithclancy

keithclancy wrote: »

A Jaguar XK for example is a complete chocolate fireguard if theres any snow/ice.

A lad on here claims you can stick them in 4th (or was it 5th) and they'll take off from standstill in that gear :pac:

keithclancy

RoverJames wrote: »

A lad on here claims you can stick them in 4th (or was it 5th) and they'll take off from standstill in that gear :pac:

Jesus .. maybe it did have manual Gear selection. was quite a while ago.

But I think with those Manual selects you can select 4th/5th whatever but the Autobox will switch down to stop the engine cutting out.

I'd say I could get my Volvo to move in 4th .. except there'd be a clutch with flames shooting out of it afterward

Max Power1

RoverJames wrote: »

A lad on here claims you can stick them in 4th (or was it 5th) and they'll take off from standstill in that gear :pac:

Wasnt that on a manual XKR?
It was 4th gear AFAIR and there is a video on youtube somewhere of it.

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Wasnt that on a manual XKR?
It was 4th gear AFAIR and there is a video on youtube somewhere of it.

I know you can do it in the manuals Which is far from amazing, the guy on here reckoned selecting 4th or 5th on the J change auto would leave it in that gear only

Nissan doctor

RoverJames wrote: »

A lad on here claims you can stick them in 4th (or was it 5th) and they'll take off from standstill in that gear :pac:

He must have been assuming that we wouldn't have seen the episode of top gear a few years ago when clarkson did that with the AM DB7 vantage.

Also people are going on about Ferrari and porsche etc not using manuals anymore. Do people realise that all the latest and best paddle shift gearboxes are computer controlled MANUAL geaboxes. They can be used in an automatic mode, where the computer changes the gears for you based on accelerarion, speed, steering input etc but they are not Automatic gearboxes, they don't have a slow to react torque converters or planetary gears. The latest dual clutch transmissions are also electronically controlled manual based gearboxes.

Mycroft H

The defender can take off in fourth its not big deal ffs, most engines with plenty of torque can do it.


Back on topic. Unless its a car with one of the new DSG type gearboxes, the manual is going to be around 25-30% more efficient then old torque converter autos.

landyman

landyman wrote: »

The defender can take off in fourth its not big deal ffs, most engines with plenty of torque can do it.

We know

Max Power1

landyman wrote: »

The defender can take off in fourth its not big deal ffs, most engines with plenty of torque can do it.
.

I think the point was manual selection in an autobox rather than being able to take off in a specific gear.

(FWIW I tried this on my fiesta and even it took off fine in 4th with only a small bit of acceleration.)

Mycroft H

Max Power1 wrote: »

I think the point was manual selection in an autobox rather than being able to take off in a specific gear.

(FWIW I tried this on my fiesta and even it took off fine in 4th with only a small bit of acceleration.)

Ahh i didnt get it


Didnt think the fiesta would be able to do it, learn something new :pac:

Max Power1

landyman wrote: »

Didnt think the fiesta would be able to do it, learn something new :pac:

Yeah, either did I. Wouldnt be trying it again mind - dont think the clutch would last much longer if I did

Guy:Incognito

gazmic1 wrote: »

ECONOMY

Modern autos are often more economical.

I changed from a 2.0 manual Safrane to a 2.5 auto and got the same economy. In the 14 years since that Safrane was made, theres been lots of positive changs for autos.

There are plenty of other things you could rip out too if your baseing everything on economy.

I'd gladly give up some economy anyway for being in an auto.

keithclancy wrote: »

A small engine, 1.4 - 2 litre, you can drop a gear when the conditions merit.
.

Do you mean you can drop in a manual? You can drop gears in an auto too.