Creosote Sleepers

freebee23

Hi All,

This is my first post in this section of boards, I can usually be found checking out the bargain alerts section....

Anyway in a bit of a dilemma and would really appreciate some advice.
Getting raised vegetable beds put in the garden and the person doing the job has used creosote railway sleepers for their construction. The job is not completed yet.

Just went online today and found loads of info regards them not being suitable. Can someone please advise as we have young children and we were planning to sow vegetables in these.

Cheers,
Freebee23

karl tyrrell

no its poison when the sun heats up the creosote starts seeping out its like tar not for fruit and veg.

paddy147

freebee23 wrote: »

Hi All,

This is my first post in this section of boards, I can usually be found checking out the bargain alerts section....

Anyway in a bit of a dilemma and would really appreciate some advice.
Getting raised vegetable beds put in the garden and the person doing the job has used creosote railway sleepers for their construction. The job is not completed yet.

Just went online today and found loads of info regards them not being suitable. Can someone please advise as we have young children and we were planning to sow vegetables in these.

Cheers,
Freebee23

You DO NOT use old/reclaimed creasote railway sleepers for planting veg.And especially with young kids playig,and hands in their mouths.

Use the new pressure treated sleepers for planting veg and for the kids too.

These are what you need.New pressure treated sleepers,8 feet long,4 inches thick,9 inches tall.No creasote in the new sleepers.

18 euro per sleeper.

Mylow

paddy147 wrote: »

You DO NOT use old/reclaimed creasote railway sleepers for planting veg.And especially with young kids playig,and hands in their mouths.

Use the new pressure treated sleepers for planting veg and for the kids too.

These are what you need.New pressure treated sleepers,8 feet long,4 inches thick,9 inches tall.No creasote in the new sleepers.

18 euro per sleeper.

From where?

DubOnHoliday

thats a good price, where can I get them?

paddy147

Newtown Building Supplies in Coolock (behind Woodies DIY) and also Grange Builders Providers in Baldoyle Ind Estate.

I got a lorry full of new sleepers off of Grange a few weeks ago.Free delievery too.

forestfruits

I have just stumbled on this thread and wish I hadnt!

we have just build two lovely raised beds from old railway sleeper we found while tackling the garden! ( it hasnt been touched in 10 years and was an urban jungle)

Now these sleepers must have been sitting there for at least 15- 20 years, would they have leached as much as they are going to?

If we line them with black polythene would we be safe enough?

paddy147

forestfruits wrote: »

I have just stumbled on this thread and wish I hadnt!

we have just build two lovely raised beds from old railway sleeper we found while tackling the garden! ( it hasnt been touched in 10 years and was an urban jungle)

Now these sleepers must have been sitting there for at least 15- 20 years, would they have leached as much as they are going to?

If we line them with black polythene would we be safe enough?

I used old reclaimed sleepers for a horrible weedy back garden 3 years ago and the plants are flying 3 years later on.I also used plenty of compost mixed up with manure and fertiliser.Weed fabric on top of the raised beds with a 2 inch layer of chip bark.Plants love it and are thriving.:)

You will also see old reclaimed sleepers used for raised flower/shrub beds in state owned places like Newbridge House,Phoenix Park,Ardgillan Castle etc etc.

forestfruits

should have mentioned I intend on growing veg in the beds....


Garden looks great by the way!!

paddy147

forestfruits wrote: »

should have mentioned I intend on growing veg in the beds....

Thanks.

By bye old creasote sleepers then.Cant use them with growing veg.

You will have to use pressure treated sleepers then,or else cleaned down scaffolding boards.

forestfruits

nooooooo:eek:

paddy147

forestfruits wrote: »

nooooooo:eek:

Scaffolding planks,8 feet long,9 inches high and 2.5 inches thick.

3,50 euro each.

4 feet long scaffolding planks are only 2.50 euro each.

Perfect for making 8 x 4 raised veggie beds.:)

Carlow52

forestfruits wrote: »

I have just stumbled on this thread and wish I hadnt!

we have just build two lovely raised beds from old railway sleeper we found while tackling the garden! ( it hasnt been touched in 10 years and was an urban jungle)

Now these sleepers must have been sitting there for at least 15- 20 years, would they have leached as much as they are going to?

If we line them with black polythene would we be safe enough?

I would line with plastic as u say and then maybe screw some 1/4" wpb plywood along the top surcace to keep from getting splinters from them.

Soon you will have a layer of Strontium 90 from Fukushima
At least u can see the cresote

Conor20

paddy147 wrote: »

Use the new pressure treated sleepers for planting veg and for the kids too.

These are what you need.New pressure treated sleepers,8 feet long,4 inches thick,9 inches tall.No creasote in the new sleepers.

I'm aware I'm digging up and old thread here, but better than starting a new one on the same topic..

Thanks for this info. I'm looking to do a raised bed, preferably with sleepers. I note that old creosote-treated sleepers are not suitable for raised beds, and you recommend that pressure treated wood is, but I can't seem to find any chemical used in pressure treating that doesn't have a question of toxicity hanging over it. I see Chadwicks are selling similar "Pressure Treated Sleepers", but it doesn't mention what's it's actually treated with. From here, I see "The most common chemicals used to treat wood are Alkaline Copper Quaternary (ACQ), Copper Azole (CA), and Micronized Copper Azole (MCA)."

I can't find anything solid on the toxicity of ACQ, CA or MCA, but I notice a trend in that first Creosote treated wood was used before it was found to be carcinogenic, then chromated copper arsenate (CCA) pressure treated wood was used before it was found to be toxic..

One opinion I see:

..On December 31, 2003, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) banned the sale of lumber treated with chromated copper arsenate (CCA) for residential use. Concerns have focused on the leaching of arsenic from pressure-treated wood into the soil, contaminating plants and people. Two compounds, quite similar to each other but sold by different suppliers, have now replaced CCA wood in the residential market. Are these new products safe to use in our home gardens? The answer, unfortunately, is not simple.

The compounds currently being used are alkaline copper quat (ACQ) and copper azole (CA-B). Both contain copper and a fungicide but no arsenic. The copper keeps insects at bay, and the fungicide prevents soil fungus from attacking the wood. In ACQ, the fungicide is quat, which is also used in swimming-pool chemicals and as a disinfectant. One of the brand names using ACQ is Preserve. The other compound, CA-B, uses copper and tebuconazole, a fungicide used on food crops. Brand names of this new pressure-treated wood include NatureWood, Wolmanized Outdoor, and Natural Select.

According to Miles McEvoy, who works in organic certification with the Washington State Department of Agriculture, no pressure-treated wood is allowed in soils used to grow organic food. If you want to meet this high standard, choose a different material. Studies have shown that arsenic from wood treated with CCA leaches into the soil and that copper, although much less toxic, leaches from ACQ and copper boron azole (CBA, a variant of CA-B).

Hmm.. Perhaps I'll go with brick.

Lumen

Conor20 wrote: »

Hmm.. Perhaps I'll go with brick.

You can line the sides of the bed with something permeable like landscaping fabric to keep the soil out of direct contact with the treated wood. Don't use impermeable plastic as it can trap moisture and accelerate rot.

I've just ordered a bulk load of untreated oak sleepers for landscaping. I hope that with careful construction they'll be fine.

I've read that larch is good too, although it depends where it comes from. The colder the climate the better the wood.

Bullocks

Lumen wrote: »

You can line the sides of the bed with something permeable like landscaping fabric to keep the soil out of direct contact with the treated wood. Don't use impermeable plastic as it can trap moisture and accelerate rot.

I've just ordered a bulk load of untreated oak sleepers for landscaping. I hope that with careful construction they'll be fine.

I've read that larch is good too, although it depends where it comes from. The colder the climate the better the wood.

What price are the oak sleepers ? I'd say they might last better than some of the new treated stuff

Lumen

Bullocks wrote: »

What price are the oak sleepers ? I'd say they might last better than some of the new treated stuff

€23.50 for 2000 x 200 x 100. I ordered 30. I think delivery was €90.

The 2.6m were the same price adjusted for length.

They're due to arrive today, so I can't say exactly what they're like, but these sort of landscape grade sleepers tend to be a mix of heartwood and sapwood with one side at least having straight edges (the heartwood side, presumably).

There's a load of Youtube videos on using them.

People recommend using Timberlok screws or various types of stainless bolts. Oak has a reputation for eating steel.

I have some old sleeper steps that have rotted from the bottom up. They were on gravel. So maybe it makes sense to put the heartwood side on the bottom.

Bullocks

Lumen wrote: »

€23.50 for 2000 x 200 x 100. I ordered 30. I think delivery was €90.

The 2.6m were the same price adjusted for length.

They're due to arrive today, so I can't say exactly what they're like, but these sort of landscape grade sleepers tend to be a mix of heartwood and sapwood with one side at least having straight edges (the heartwood side, presumably).

There's a load of Youtube videos on using them.

People recommend using Timberlok screws or various types of stainless bolts. Oak has a reputation for eating steel.

I have some old sleeper steps that have rotted from the bottom up. They were on gravel. So maybe it makes sense to put the heartwood side on the bottom.

Thanks , that's a pretty good price I think . We just did a fence out of the new type pressure treated sleepers, they were €17each for 2.4 long sleepers and I wouldn't consider the timber great in them.

Bullocks

These are the sleepers we used

Lumen

Ooooh, fancy!

Bullocks

Lumen wrote: »

Ooooh, fancy!

It's a job I'm doing for a lad , it's too fancy for my own place . We have almost 400 sleepers used in it !

amber2

Recently saw raised vegetable beds being made out of old scaffolding planks, just an idea can be bought very cheaply on DoneDeal or Adverts only a couple of Euro each.

Lumen

Bullocks wrote: »

It's a job I'm doing for a lad , it's too fancy for my own place . We have almost 400 sleepers used in it !

:eek:

How are they anchored into the ground?

Conor20

Lumen wrote: »

You can line the sides of the bed with something permeable like landscaping fabric to keep the soil out of direct contact with the treated wood. Don't use impermeable plastic as it can trap moisture and accelerate rot. I've just ordered a bulk load of untreated oak sleepers for landscaping. I hope that with careful construction they'll be fine.

Thanks - two good suggestions. Where did you order the untreated wood from? What was the ballpark cost? With some subsequent research, I did find a suggestion that Tanalith 'E' is a safe form of wood treatment for gardening use, because it doesn't contain Chromium or Arsenic compounds. This site sells sleepers in Ireland treated with this specifically for raised beds, but at €295 for 10, they're quite expensive.

Lumen

Conor20 wrote: »

Where did you order the untreated wood from? What was the ballpark cost?

Costs posted above.

I ordered them from McNamara Fencing

http://www.mcnamarafencing.ie/residential/oak-railway-sleepers/

Stock varies so that list isn't a great guide (they were out of 2.4m sleepers).

Other suppliers on my list:

http://railwaysleepersireland.com/ (couldn't get through to them)
https://www.abbeylawn.net/fencing/railway-sleepers/ (bit more expensive)

Also check donedeal although usual caveats.

Bullocks

Lumen wrote: »

:eek:

How are they anchored into the ground?

There is at least 600mm underground in concrete and they are tied together with 4 170mm screws countersunk through each sleeper . They're going nowhere haha

Lumen

Bullocks wrote: »

There is at least 600mm underground in concrete and they are tied together with 4 170mm screws countersunk through each sleeper . They're going nowhere haha

Interesting. I guess there's no alternative to concrete since you can't drive sleepers into the ground the same way you can with post and rail fencing (since the sleepers are square-ended and right next to each other). It's more of a wall than a fence.

I've spent far too much time reading about fencing, and there seems to be no way of stopping post rot which seems to happen at ground level where there is the right mix of water and air.

Obviously the thicker the post (and the better/deeper the treatment) the longer it's going to take to rot, and in your case the sleepers aren't supporting anything other than their own weight.

I guess the sleepers might last longer if capped since you've got rain running directly down the end-grain. Except that would mess with the look.

Bullocks

Lumen wrote: »

Interesting. I guess there's no alternative to concrete since you can't drive sleepers into the ground the same way you can with post and rail fencing (since the sleepers are square-ended and right next to each other). It's more of a wall than a fence.

I've spent far too much time reading about fencing, and there seems to be no way of stopping post rot which seems to happen at ground level where there is the right mix of water and air.

Obviously the thicker the post (and the better/deeper the treatment) the longer it's going to take to rot, and in your case the sleepers aren't supporting anything other than their own weight.

I guess the sleepers might last longer if capped since you've got rain running directly down the end-grain. Except that would mess with the look.

I think if you get 10/15 years it will be time to start a hedge or do something different with them anyhow by then

Jeta2020

Came across this thread and am now concerned.
I purchased some sleepers which are dark in colour from a builders supplier which I used for raised flower beds and the leftovers to build a sandbox for the childern.
My concern now is that theae pose a risk to the kids.
Are merchants prevented from selling creosote sleepers?

magicbastarder

yes. you haven't been able to buy creosote treated sleepers for years.

Jack lemmon

magicbastarder wrote: »

yes. you haven't been able to buy creosote treated sleepers for years.

Not correct, you can’t buy old Irish railway sleepers true. But believe it or not you can buy imported ones. Any amount of them for sale, I got them myself. They’re NOT to be used in a raised bed where plants for eating are sown. Besides the creosote, there’s a high probability of asbestos dust from old break disks used on trains in the past( this should be taken into account if sawing these also)