Free Immigration Is In The Irish Constitution!

UsernameInUse

The High Court has just struck out a law which requires foreigners to show, on request, a passport at the airport when entering the country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0325/breaking31.html

The High Court has struck down as unconstitutional a provision of the Immigration Act making it a criminal offence for a non-national to fail to produce, without "a satisfactory explanation", passport or other identity documents on demand by gardaí....

The State had argued Section 12 was a core part of laws for control and regulation of the entry of non-nationals into the State and their obligations while here.

Ms Dokie (40), who claims she is from Liberia and her passport was destroyed in a fire in 1989, was charged under Section 12 after being arrested at Dublin Airport in April 2008 when she, her daughter and two young boys arrived on a flight from Nigeria and attempted to enter the State without any passports.

Thank goodness the Constitution writers got something right.
Let them all in!

Mike 1972

If it puts a stop to shyte like this then not before time

Though he is an Irish citizen, Xiaowei Guo was arrested for failing to produce a passport

WHEN A traffic garda stopped Xiaowei Guo in his car in Dublin city centre in November 2008, he didn’t think much of it. He’d never been in trouble with the Garda and, as an Irish citizen, felt he had nothing to fear from the police.

“He asked me to produce my passport and said he suspected I was in breach of immigration law. When I told him I was an Irish citizen and left my passport at home, he didn’t believe me,” says Guo, who arrived in Ireland in 1997 and acquired citizenship in 2003. Guo was arrested for failing to produce a valid passport or other equivalent documents. He was brought to Kevin Street station and detained for three hours until his wife brought his passport to prove his identity.

“It was very humiliating being arrested in rush hour in Dublin city centre. I had worked 10 hours that day and was tired. I asked the garda to come to my house, just three blocks away. He wouldn’t agree and my wife had to travel back from Dún Laoghaire to give the garda the passport,” he says.

“When I left the station the Garda told me not to waste their time and carry my passport on me all the time or face arrest again,” says Guo, who was so angry about his treatment he complained to the Garda Ombudsman.

The ombudsman found the officer had “not been found in breach of discipline as he justified the arrest stating that he had formed a reasonable suspicion at the time that Mr Guo was a non-national”. Under section 12 of the Immigration Act, 2004, non-Irish nationals can face criminal conviction if they fail to produce a passport or equivalent ID on demand to a garda or immigration officer without “a satisfactory explanation”.

Wibbs

Eh not quite. Section 11 is still in force. People, citizens or not still can't enter the country without documents.

UsernameInUse

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Though he is an Irish citizen, Xiaowei Guo was arrested for failing to produce a passport

WHEN A traffic garda stopped Xiaowei Guo in his car in Dublin city centre in November 2008, he didn’t think much of it. He’d never been in trouble with the Garda and, as an Irish citizen, felt he had nothing to fear from the police.

“He asked me to produce my passport and said he suspected I was in breach of immigration law. When I told him I was an Irish citizen and left my passport at home, he didn’t believe me,” says Guo, who arrived in Ireland in 1997 and acquired citizenship in 2003. Guo was arrested for failing to produce a valid passport or other equivalent documents. He was brought to Kevin Street station and detained for three hours until his wife brought his passport to prove his identity.

“It was very humiliating being arrested in rush hour in Dublin city centre. I had worked 10 hours that day and was tired. I asked the garda to come to my house, just three blocks away. He wouldn’t agree and my wife had to travel back from Dún Laoghaire to give the garda the passport,” he says.

“When I left the station the Garda told me not to waste their time and carry my passport on me all the time or face arrest again,” says Guo, who was so angry about his treatment he complained to the Garda Ombudsman.

The ombudsman found the officer had “not been found in breach of discipline as he justified the arrest stating that he had formed a reasonable suspicion at the time that Mr Guo was a non-national”. Under section 12 of the Immigration Act, 2004, non-Irish nationals can face criminal conviction if they fail to produce a passport or equivalent ID on demand to a garda or immigration officer without “a satisfactory explanation”.

I know...I read that - Absolutely sickening.

The government are taking away our right each and every day. Unless we stand up against this, it will only continue. Privacy is a basic right. The Gardai have no business stopping you and asking for ID.

imitation

Back when they wrote the constitution they probably thought nobody would ever want to come here. Infact theres probably a few laws there to keep people in.

mike65

Damn coloureds and thier pesky Irishness eh, Still one wouldn't expect the Turnips of Templemore to have any wit about this sort of thing.

UsernameInUse

imitation wrote: »

Back when they wrote the constitution they probably thought nobody would ever want to come here. Infact theres probably a few laws there to keep people in.

In all honesty, we're one of the most under-populated islands in the world. Ireland used to be 12 million before the famine and mass emigration. We could at least move that 4.5 figure up a couple of million over the coming years. If we make moves in this area, Dublin can be London in ten years.

Captain_Generic

Almost as bad as that time in Lidl when they wouldn't accept my passport as proof of age, "sorry we only accept Garda ID's..."

Shenanigans I say, what does a guy have to do to get drunk around here :P

blubloblu

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh not quite. Section 11 is still in force. People, citizens or not still can't enter the country without documents.

Shh! Don't let your facts get in the way.

Wolfe Tone

Thread title is all wrong....

clancyoo7

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I know...I read that - Absolutely sickening.

The government are taking away our right each and every day. Unless we stand up against this, it will only continue. Privacy is a basic right. The Gardai have no business stopping you and asking for ID.

Immigaration officers no business looking for illegal immigrants:rolleyes:. This is a complete joke. While the circumstances mentioned were unfortunate. How else would immigration officials check the person before them are who them claim to be. The racial profiling argument is a nonsense becauses generally people who are living and working illegally in Ireland are foreign nationals.

mike65

UsernameInUse wrote: »

If we make moves in this area, Dublin can be London in ten years.

Just as well that won't happen. The country is unbalanced as it is, 7 million would be untenable!

oppenheimer1

Mike 1972 wrote: »

If it puts a stop to shyte like this then not before time

If he was in his car he should have had his driving license and on that it would have stated his nationality.

faceman

Guilty until proven guilty

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The Gardai have no business stopping you and asking for ID.

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read on boards.

For effective law enforcement the Gardai need to know who someone is.
You can't just let anyone wander into the country and do what they like.

The gardai don't just stop people randomly, there's usually a reason.
The majority of the time it's driving offences / tax / insurance violations.

clancyoo7

This just paves the way for a national id card system. More expence for an already knackered country.

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

In all honesty, we're one of the most under-populated islands in the world. Ireland used to be 12 million before the famine and mass emigration. We could at least move that 4.5 figure up a couple of million over the coming years.

How sustainable a population is does not depend on available land mass.
If there's no jobs, then the extra population will be unemployed and a further drain on our resources. We don't have the infrastructure for such numbers either.

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read on boards.

For effective law enforcement the Gardai need to know who someone is.
You can't just let anyone wander into the country and do what they like.

The gardai don't just stop people randomly, there's usually a reason.
The majority of the time it's driving offences / tax / insurance violations.

I was talking about ID Cards in the street.

minidazzler

CreepingDeath wrote: »

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read on boards.

For effective law enforcement the Gardai need to know who someone is.
You can't just let anyone wander into the country and do what they like.

The gardai don't just stop people randomly, there's usually a reason.
The majority of the time it's driving offences / tax / insurance violations.

They should only be allowed stop you for ID if you are driving, and at that, I would be of the opinion that you should have to be driving in a way that would arouse suspicion.

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I was talking about ID Cards in the street.

Then why does the thread title mention immigration ?

Anyway, I'm not against ID cards.
It's not like there'll be pedestrian checkpoints at the streets stopping people.

The gardai absolutely have a right to stop anybody on the street, including non-nationals to check whether they are supposed to be here or to establish their identity during an investigation.

Any legal immigrants should be happy with the system as a little plastic card will establish their right to be here very effectively.

The only people against id cards are people with something to hide.

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Then why does the thread title mention immigration ?

Anyway, I'm not against ID cards.
It's not like there'll be pedestrian checkpoints at the streets stopping people.

The gardai absolutely have a right to stop anybody on the street, including non-nationals to check whether they are supposed to be here or to establish their identity during an investigation.

Any legal immigrants should be happy with the system as a little plastic card will establish their right to be here very effectively.

The only people against id cards are people with something to hide.

The thread is about immigration - the post you are quoting was a reply to Mike. Secondly, you SHOULD be against National ID Cards. Here's why:

1. Privacy: who will have access to personal information about us? The card could hold vast amounts of information from your address (and where you have lived in the past), who your family are, your religion and on to your priority for heath-care, education and public services. It is likely to contain your fingerprints, scan of your iris or even your DNA profile. What reassurances are there about how our personal information is shared? We are particularly concerned about 'function creep'. A national ID card would require a National Database containing continually updated personal information. Once created, it will almost certainly expand. Who would seek access to the information and how can we be sure that permission wont be granted?

2. Enforcement: what will be the consequences if you fail to carry, or lose your card? Even if it is not compulsory to carry the card at all times, if we need the card to access services surely it will be virtually impossible to live in society without it? We are concerned that the system will foster discrimination and prejudice and lead to some sections of society being asked to prove their identity and their right to access more than others. The inevitable outcome is that an 'entitlement' card will be optional for the minority who are wealthy but in effect compulsory for the majority who make greater use of public services.

3. Resources: surely there are better ways for this government to spend hundreds of millions of pounds each year? Setting up the scheme, including computerised cards, could easily cost £1bn. Maintenance of the system, probably including a huge national database, would cost millions more each year.

4. Functionality: why should we believe that ID cards will reduce crime, when there is no evidence of this in any EU countries who have ID Cards? Evidence from other EU countries highlight the potential dangers in an ID card scheme, and no benefits in terms of crime reduction. In France there are concerns over discriminatory practice by the authorities and in Germany the safeguards protecting privacy have been eroded. We should heed the warnings of these countries.

5. Privacy: when will this government take steps to protect individual privacy rather than continually proposing measures which erode it? The government is apparently determined to introduce a national identity card - but even ministers don't seem sure what it is for. First it was to 'combat terrorism' now it's to 'reduce fraud' neither of which are supported by convincing evidence that it would have any practical effect. It would be naïve to believe that once in place use of the cards and database would be restricted to the original stated purpose. The government's attempted re-branding of national identity cards as 'entitlement cards' does not detract from very real concerns over privacy and freedom; but it does imply that we will be endlessly required to prove we are entitled to services we already receive.

delta720

Mike 1972 wrote: »

If it puts a stop to shyte like this then not before time

In fairness the fella might have an Irish passport but he's still ethnically Chinese and having only been here since 1997 I'd put money on him having a Chinese accent, therefore any logical person would make the educated guess that he was not an Irish citizen. If we had a national ID system he could have simply flashed his card and been aloud carry on with no hassle.

People go on about 'being an Irish citizen' as if naturalised immigrants get a passport and their hair suddenly turns red, they break out in freckles and start talking with a big culchie accent. At the end of the day they still look and sound like non-Irish and if they don't carry around proof of citizenship they shouldn't be surprised if they're taken to be non-Irish.

This PC craic is getting rediculous.

The Orb

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The High Court has just struck out a law which requires foreigners to show, on request, a passport at the airport when entering the country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0325/breaking31.html



Thank goodness the Constitution writers got something right.
Let them all in!

OP, you have it wrong, s12, which was ruled unconstitutional, relates to non-nationals showing documents on demand anywhere, s11 relates to producing a passport/equivalent document when entering the state. It seems the guards it wrong and should have charged her under s11. The question is what was she doing entering the state with no passport at all, while two of the three children with her were not hers, very suspicious indeed.

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The thread is about immigration - the post you are quoting was a reply to Mike. Secondly, you SHOULD be against National ID Cards. Here's why:

wrote:

1. Privacy: who will have access to personal information about us? The card could hold vast amounts of information from your address (and where you have lived in the past), who your family are, your religion and on to your priority for heath-care, education and public services. It is likely to contain your fingerprints, scan of your iris or even your DNA profile.

Facebook and Google pretty much have that sort of information already.

They won't have your DNA profile, as it's prohibitively expensive to scan everyones DNA. So that's a ridiculous argument.
I don't see anything wrong with a fingerprint scan, especially if it cuts out welfare fraud. Too many welfare thieves have two or more PPS numbers, and a biometric identification system would stop that.

wrote:

2. Enforcement: what will be the consequences if you fail to carry, or lose your card?

No more than if you currently lose your passport or driving license.
You report it to the guards and request another one.

wrote:

3. Resources: surely there are better ways for this government to spend hundreds of millions of pounds each year? Setting up the scheme, including computerised cards, could easily cost £1bn. Maintenance of the system, probably including a huge national database, would cost millions more each year.

Rubbish, credit card companies have been producing "cards" for decades.
It's not prohibitively expensive and should pay for itself by reducing social welfare fraud and duplication of obselete contact details across many state departments.

wrote:

4. Functionality: why should we believe that ID cards will reduce crime

Who said their purpose is to reduce crime ?
Their purpose is to identify a person so that they have access to state services, resources and money.

wrote:

5. Privacy: when will this government take steps to protect individual privacy rather than continually proposing measures which erode it?

And exactly what privacy are you losing ?
If you have medical problems, they're already stored in doctors offices and hospitals. If you have criminal records, they're stored in Gardai computers.

You're entitled to personal privacy from the public, but what makes you think you're entitled to completely anonymous interaction with the state ?

biko

Maybe we can come up with some sort of system to show who's not quite Irish?
Some sort of identification mark on the clothes perhaps?

zuroph

Um, thread title change needed. OP has totally missed the point of article.

DEVEREUX

UsernameInUse wrote: »

In all honesty, we're one of the most under-populated islands in the world. Ireland used to be 12 million before the famine and mass emigration. We could at least move that 4.5 figure up a couple of million over the coming years. If we make moves in this area, Dublin can be London in ten years.

No thanks!!

token101

delta720 wrote: »

In fairness the fella might have an Irish passport but he's still ethnically Chinese and having only been here since 1997 I'd put money on him having a Chinese accent, therefore any logical person would make the educated guess that he was not an Irish citizen. If we had a national ID system he could have simply flashed his card and been aloud carry on with no hassle.

People go on about 'being an Irish citizen' as if naturalised immigrants get a passport and their hair suddenly turns red, they break out in freckles and start talking with a big culchie accent. At the end of the day they still look and sound like non-Irish and if they don't carry around proof of citizenship they shouldn't be surprised if they're taken to be non-Irish.

This PC craic is getting rediculous.

Totally agreed. I don't have any problem with Gardai detaining someone until they establish an identity. If he isn't a citizen or doesn't have a work permit or whatever then its their job to know. I would hope they had some tact and there was some protocol where they didn't embarrass the guy with handcuffs or any of that but what are they supposed to do really? Take his word? Showing his passport/ licence or whatever documents would have solved the problem on the spot, no need for any hassle. To say thats racist or whatever people are trying to suggest is ridiculous. It would be the same for any Irish person in America, Canada, Oz, wherever and rightfully so.

Kevin Duffy

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Facebook and Google pretty much have that sort of information already.

They won't have your DNA profile, as it's prohibitively expensive to scan everyones DNA. So that's a ridiculous argument.
I don't see anything wrong with a fingerprint scan, especially if it cuts out welfare fraud. Too many welfare thieves have two or more PPS numbers, and a biometric identification system would stop that.



No more than if you currently lose your passport or driving license.
You report it to the guards and request another one.



Rubbish, credit card companies have been producing "cards" for decades.
It's not prohibitively expensive and should pay for itself by reducing social welfare fraud and duplication of obselete contact details across many state departments.



Who said their purpose is to reduce crime ?
Their purpose is to identify a person so that they have access to state services, resources and money.



And exactly what privacy are you losing ?
If you have medical problems, they're already stored in doctors offices and hospitals. If you have criminal records, they're stored in Gardai computers.

You're entitled to personal privacy from the public, but what makes you think you're entitled to completely anonymous interaction with the state ?

Google and FB have that information if you choose to give it to them.
There is no penalty for losing or failing to carry a driving license or passport, you can produce the licence at another time and you'll just be restricted from travelling internationally with no pp.
Credit card companies who bore the cost of producing cards did so to facilitate earning money from you by using it. There is a cost, they just made a bigger profit. They also frequently charge for replacement cards. A national ID would have no such recovery of cost mechanism.
Medical records are kept for medical purposes, by specific parts of the healthcare system, not in an open-access system. Likewise, criminal records are formed following criminal behaviour, not pre-emptively.
No one has proposed anonymous interaction with the state, more a relationship where information is appropriately gathered and managed.

zuroph

The chinese guy in question wasnt charged with failure to produce a driving licence when pulled over, which would suggest that he DID provide Identification at the time, just not his passport, which, as an Irish citizen, he wasn't obligated to carry with him.

CreepingDeath

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Medical records are kept for medical purposes, by specific parts of the healthcare system, not in an open-access system.

Who said National id cards are an open access system ?
Various details can be encrypted with different encryption keys, so that only medical personnel can decrypt the medical data, Gardai can only decrypt the law related data etc.

It would only be law enforcement, welfare fraud and tax fraud officers who would ever need to go through the data anyway.

But illegal immigrants, tax dodgers etc, are the types that would worry about this sort of system.

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

No one has proposed anonymous interaction with the state, more a relationship where information is appropriately gathered and managed.

What exactly does that mean?
I think it would be very beneficial to carry around your medical history on a card, especially if you were in an accident and the emergency room doctors could determine your identity and read important medical infomation, eg. allergies to anti-biotics, diabetes, current prescriptions etc.

token101

zuroph wrote: »

The chinese guy in question wasnt charged with failure to produce a driving licence when pulled over, which would suggest that he DID provide Identification at the time, just not his passport, which, as an Irish citizen, he wasn't obligated to carry with him.

I doubt that. If he showed a driving licence that would have been enough seeing as how you cant get one without papers. I would imagine that he didn't provide any info and the Gardai rightfully decided that charging him for not having a driving licence after already putting through a bit of an ordeal would be just stupid. Why didn't he just carry ID anyway just to save himself and the Gardai the hassle of finding out who he was? Should we really have to make that obligatory? Whatever happened to a bit of common sense?

zuroph

token101 wrote: »

I doubt that. If he showed a driving licence that would have been enough seeing as how you cant get one without papers. I would imagine that he didn't provide any info and the Gardai rightfully decided that charging him for not having a driving licence after already putting through a bit of an ordeal would be just stupid. Why didn't he just carry ID anyway just to save himself and the Gardai the hassle of finding out who he was? Should we really have to make that obligatory? Whatever happened to a bit of common sense?

So the Gardaí decided to put him through the hassle of being arrested and bringing him to station, but not through the ordeal of actually charging him with the relevent crime? I doubt that. You don't know he wasnt carrying ID. Just not his passport. Do you carry your passport everywhere you go?

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

You're entitled to personal privacy from the public, but what makes you think you're entitled to completely anonymous interaction with the state ?

See "Privacy". :rolleyes:

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

See "Privacy". :rolleyes:

See "the modern world" :rolleyes:

It's only an ID card, not a database to be filled with your entire CV and life history. It will uniquely identify you with a number, that's all.
It may contain general information like your address, nationality etc.

When that happens, it would be foolish of IT people not to use it, so that independent medical systems and independent social welfare systems store the number. It's only right to reuse a system when it's put in place.

I'm all for id cards.

The only thing I would be against would be RFID tags in them.
But then you can build shielded wallets to store them in.

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

See "the modern world" :rolleyes:

It's only an ID card, not a database to be filled with your entire CV and life history. It will uniquely identify you with a number, that's all.
It may contain general information like your address, nationality etc.

When that happens, it would be foolish of IT people not to use it, so that independent medical systems and independent social welfare systems store the number. It's only right to reuse a system when it's put in place.

I'm all for id cards.

The only thing I would be against would be RFID tags in them.
But then you can build shielded wallets to store them in.

You're failing to even consider what would come of the system.

In fact, I don't even know anyone remotely in favour of such a project. You're the first. You can't pick and choose what you think it would consist of. If they have your fingerprints, what's next? It's a violation of privacy, clear and simple. And it's a situation which we must avoid at all costs.

the groutch

bit off topic, but does the constitution also mention emmigration?
in theory it could be applied to prove the travel tax to be unconstitutional?

UsernameInUse

the groutch wrote: »

bit off topic, but does the constitution also mention emmigration?
in theory it could be applied to prove the travel tax to be unconstitutional?

Tax in general should be dramatically lowered. Income tax and others are relatively new things - government didn't start to expand until the 1930's so all this talk of "Oh, you have to, because it's the way society works" is nonsense.

Power to the people.

zuroph

getting very close to requiring a move to conspiracy forum.

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

You're failing to even consider what would come of the system.

No, I'm not.

I work in I.T., specifically financial crime and security.
You carry around credit cards and bank cards, which are simply identification mechanisms. They do not store your bank balance, nor your credit limit.

Any information the government want to store on an id card, is available to them now via a court order anyway.

UsernameInUse wrote: »

In fact, I don't even know anyone remotely in favour of such a project. You're the first. You can't pick and choose what you think it would consist of. If they have your fingerprints, what's next? It's a violation of privacy, clear and simple. And it's a situation which we must avoid at all costs.

I think the conspiracy forum is best suited to your posting needs.
As long as the government don't share the information with the private sector, eg. insurance companies & pension companies, I don't see a problem.

Law abiding people wouldn't be strongly against it.
Sure the social welfare department sent everyone out a public services card
with the PPS number on it years ago.

In fact I think all schools and social welfare offices should demand an ID card from non-nationals before giving them anything.

KINGVictor

Threads like this are usually very sensitive in nature and as such would instigate emotive responses based on different perceptions.

I have two minds about this:

Firstly, the police would essentially have to profile a suspect or potential immigration offender based on parameters such as race and language. It can be very distressing for the innocent party when such an event occurs but I presume that most officers do it in good faith and are not trying to purposely discriminate against the suspect. A good way to deal with this is for a process that is proctive and commonsensical be put in place, e.g. like the case the Chinese gentleman, the officer could have afforded him more time to prove his case before detaining him for 3 hours while other crimes were taking place at the time. However, the police have to make decisions quickly given time and resource constraints and believe me it can be very tough because they have to act on evidence and their intuition which unfortunately can be sometimes subjective.

More importantly, I personally do not see anything particularly wrong in the state requiring residents having a verifiable form of ID on them at all times. While it may seem intrusive or seemingly breach privacy ethics, it is still the decision of the state as to what they percieve to be in the best interest of the country.

I lived in Belgium and it is mandatory for every resident of the country to have an officially recognised ID on them at all times, failure to produce one is punishable by being jailed for 24 hours - even Belgians! Every resident is also mandated to notify relevant authorities of any change in address, it may seem a bit draconian but it is the law in the country and it works well for them because they can effectively use this for statistical purposes etc...

It is a grey area alright! I am black and I would have no qualms if the Police ask me for identification if it is good faith and not just based on random profiling but still at the end of the day the laws of the state that should take preeminence.

southsiderosie

If citizens are not required to carry a national id, then the police are in no position to ask for proof of citizenship. You cannot ask naturalized citizens to meet separate legal obligations from 'native-born' citizens. Either all citizens need to carry national id with them, or the police need to take it at face value if and when a person claims to be a citizen, regardless of their color or accent.

As for the airport Section 11 situation, I think some people on this thread need to re-read the article.

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I think the conspiracy forum is best suited to your posting needs.
As long as the government don't share the information with the private sector, eg. insurance companies & pension companies, I don't see a problem.

That seems to be the general consensus around here. Frightful that you don't see illegitimacy in asking people to carry around cards with them 24/7 or risk running up a fine. Most of us want to keep our privacy intact. The British or Americans didn't particularly welcome their introduction, so why should we?

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

That seems to be the general consensus around here. Frightful that you don't see illegitimacy in asking people to carry around cards with them 24/7 or risk running up a fine.

I can currently get fined 2 penalty points of I'm caught driving without my driving licence. I can be fined €80 if I don't have my Dublin bus photo id with me when I use my monthly ticket.

Build a bridge and get over it.
You won't be fined on the spot, but might be asked to produce the id at a garda station within 7 days or something.

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Most of us want to keep our privacy intact.

What "privacy" are you fretting about ?
Sounds like you've something to hide.
It's not like the card is going to contain all the pervert URL's you've visited on the net.

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Build a bridge and get over it.

I knew I smelled a rat.

That's the sort of defeatist attitude that will run us into the ground. How about you find some bottle and say "no." Thank goodness most of us don't just roll over on command.

Mike 1972

delta720 wrote: »

In fairness the fella might have an Irish passport but he's still ethnically Chinese and having only been here since 1997 I'd put money on him having a Chinese accent, therefore any logical person would make the educated guess that he was not an Irish citizen. .

KINGVictor wrote: »

Firstly, the police would essentially have to profile a suspect or potential immigration offender based on parameters such as race and language
.

Like this you mean ?

As long as the government don't share the information with the private sector, eg. insurance companies & pension companies, I don't see a problem.

Or leave it on a memory stick on a train.....

CreepingDeath wrote: »

If there's no jobs, then the extra population will be unemployed and a further drain on our resources..

The number of jobs in a country is not a fixed quantity. The extra population require goods and services which helps create employment.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Facebook and Google pretty much have that sort of information already.

Only on those who have been daft enough to give it to them.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

The only people against id cards are people with something to hide.

Reported for Defamation

Not really but I could have

flag123

Wogs, man!

southsiderosie

flag123 wrote: »

Wogs, man!

Mike 1972

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Tax in general should be dramatically lowered. Income tax and others are relatively new things - government didn't start to expand until the 1930's.

Oh I wonder why

clancyoo7 wrote: »

generally people who are living and working illegally in Ireland are foreign nationals.

UUuuuuuhhh Yeah

delta720 wrote: »

People go on about 'being an Irish citizen' as if naturalised immigrants get a passport and their hair suddenly turns red, they break out in freckles and start talking with a big culchie accent. At the end of the day they still look and sound like non-Irish and if they don't carry around proof of citizenship they shouldn't be surprised if they're taken to be non-Irish. .

Driving while Black Asian

CreepingDeath wrote: »

In fact I think all schools and social welfare offices should demand an ID card from non-nationals before giving them anything.

Dont social welfare offices demand ID from everyone ?

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

That's the sort of defeatist attitude that will run us into the ground. How about you find some bottle and say "no." Thank goodness most of us don't just roll over on command.

The lack of activity on this thread, with post counts and thanks, just shows how little people worry about this issue. And you're only speaking on behalf of a small minority.

It's not a defeatist attitude if you're pro-id cards.

I work in the financial security sector, so I probably know more about data warehouses, encryption and identification than you do.

You're probably too paranoid to get a supermarket loyalty card too !
As if anyone is remotely interested in individuals in this world, it's all to do with aggregated data and trends.

MagicSean

zuroph wrote: »

So the Gardaí decided to put him through the hassle of being arrested and bringing him to station, but not through the ordeal of actually charging him with the relevent crime? I doubt that. You don't know he wasnt carrying ID. Just not his passport. Do you carry your passport everywhere you go?

Once it was proved he was an Irish citizen there was nothing to charge him with under the immigration act. Once a licence has been produced to a station it is not common practice to charge them with not having it with them either.

The best system would be a national ID card which is also a drivers licence. It could be supported by a national database with varying levels of access as a previous poster stated. Medical info available at hospitals and coroners. Criminal info available to gardai. Address and fingerprint available to social welfare and courts etc.. It would not be any different to what is currently on file about you. It would just be tidier and easier to access by those that need it. As with the current Garda system it should not be able to be put on a memory stick or laptop. It would also have to be accompanied by legislation on access and use of the information. In the future this system could be expanded to include iris recognition info for international travel.

As to the legislation that was struck down. My understanding is that it was struck down as it was an open power and didn't require any suspicion on behalf of the Garda. This will most likely be changed and things will be back to how they were.