London Protest March

Humans eh!

One of the most politicised marches in years will take place in London today. Organised by the Trade Unions in a strange move Labour leader Ed Milliband will address the crowds in Hyde Park to promote his slow but deep style of cuts as opposed to the slash and burn Tory version.

With the anger about deep cuts in public spending and David Cameron's expensive War in Libya could we see a Tahrir Square style attempted occupation of central London as is planned?
The police have been criticised for heavy handed crowd control on previous occasions and seem to be playing down their approach to this one. There are real feelings of anger over high earner tax loophole evasion while education and care budgets are slashed. Philip Green seems to be a particular target of anger see here.

Could this turn nasty and change the political landscape of Britain or just be another jolly outing for the anarchists and riot police?

Denerick

I find the placards saying 'NO CUTS' to be both amusing and extraordinary. Do these people live in a fantasy world? There certainly is a case that the coalition is cutting too fast and too deep, but these people want to keep moving on like the recession never happened and the deficit didn't exist.

Humans eh!

I think its the distribution of the cuts thats the issue, and the parties once again polarising, Conservative with the rich & Labour with the unions. Many people feel that the elite who caused such a financial mess are being let off with tax breaks while the poor bear the brunt of cuts and finance military action which is very expensive.
Philip Green who is the new poster child for the fat cat stereotype has evaded literally Billions in tax while front line services (including police budgets) have been severely compromised. Bank bonuses still being paid after their rescue has angered many people who don't know or care about finance but do care about perceived equality and justice.

I think it is fascinating to see populations stand up and be counted. I also believe that the Middle East uprisings will be an inspiration for hard liners who never believed before that they could really change anything by protesting/rioting.
Interesting times ahead.

silverharp

"cuts deniers" come across as head in the sand types that just want their pesonal gov. ATM to keeping supplying goodies, anybody but me is hardly a way for an economy to run. The BBC did a piece yesterday where kids of RAF employees were rolled out to say why their base shouldnt be closed :rolleyes:

whoopdedoo

fair played to them, they're not afraid to get stuck in and make themselves heard in the uk. hope it goes all Tarhir sq and it starts here shortly afterwards!!

GSF

Humans eh! wrote: »

With the anger about deep cuts in public spending and David Cameron's expensive War in Libya could we see a Tahrir Square style attempted occupation of central London as is planned?

So they are opposed to supporting the toppling of Gadaffi [unelected] but want to overturn a legitimately elected government. Theres perverse logic at work!

ilovesleep

Humans eh! wrote: »

I think its the distribution of the cuts thats the issue, and the parties once again polarising, Conservative with the rich & Labour with the unions. Many people feel that the elite who caused such a financial mess are being let off with tax breaks while the poor bear the brunt of cuts and finance military action which is very expensive.
Philip Green who is the new poster child for the fat cat stereotype has evaded literally Billions in tax while front line services (including police budgets) have been severely compromised. Bank bonuses still being paid after their rescue has angered many people who don't know or care about finance but do care about perceived equality and justice.

Much like our own country except here people will lie down and take it all. Fair play to them out protesting. They are willing to stand up and be heard. Ireland has a bunch of lazy asses.

Humans eh!

GSF wrote: »

So they are opposed to supporting the toppling of Gadaffi [unelected] but want to overturn a legitimately elected government. Theres perverse logic at work!

Yes, logic has nothing to do with it, the problem lies in the fact that people are waking up to the fact that motivations for Government actions are usually done for reasons other than political idealism or concern for human rights. I don't think that they are opposed to Gadaffi's toppling, but the reasons behind it.

Its simply that people don't have faith in the political system anymore. All they see is their legitimately elected government seemingly acting in ways that have no apparent benefit to the greater population. It would suit the west (from an oil perspective) to have Gadaffi in power, after all he was the new darling of the west up till recently. People are cynical of their government acting on Human Rights issues because of all the issues that it ignores because big business has no interest in the area. Thats IMHO what the issue is, it is cynicism that drives these protests not logic .

GSF

Humans eh! wrote: »

I don't think that they are opposed to Gadaffi's toppling, but the reasons behind it.

So they think the west are supporting Gadaffi's toppling for ulterior motives

Humans eh! wrote: »

It would suit the west (from an oil perspective) to have Gadaffi in power.

But the west would prefer Gadaffi to stay.




So there may be some confused people, some idealists, some self haters and many cynics. What a wonderful coalition.

Humans eh!

Governments have a myriad of reasons for doing everything. The public are often perplexed by decisions made for seemingly conflicting or nonsensical motives. You can be sure though that there are reasons for everything and people know that they are only told what the media reports or assumes to be the facts. The true motivations are often hidden and will not become apparent for many years.

But thats aside from this issue. The problem with events in North Africa are the amount of unknowns involved, events are moving so fast that governments are having a hard time reading the ever changing political landscape and the emergence of a silent radical Islamic powerhouse across the Arab world has made people very nervous but the man on the street is really more concerned with his own community and his own future.

What we see is protests not about any single issue or ideal per say but simply an expression of an unstructured general unhappiness of sections of the population ( via protesting groups) with the powers that be. This could be perceived as a time of weakness of the government in Britain and people may wish to strike a timely blow just to see what gives. There is a lot of misguided and misdirected anger in England and an issue like the "No Cuts" protest movement could just be a conduit to release that anger.

I hope it is peaceful and instead of rioting people are encouraged to become part of a movement for change and a fairer society, by political and peaceful means (Jaysus I sound like Cameron there!) but I doubt it.
I'm all for striking a blow to rattle the establishment but I fear that it will only encourage a more hardline stance by the police and curb civil freedoms even more.

Denerick

ilovesleep wrote: »

Much like our own country except here people will lie down and take it all. Fair play to them out protesting. They are willing to stand up and be heard. Ireland has a bunch of lazy asses.

This is an argument that doesn't wash, frankly. At the moment the German taxpayer is paying the wages of public sector workers here in Ireland; even though the average public sector work is paid far better than the average German one.

You can stand up and be heard all you want, but someone has to do the accountancy. And live in the real world.

muletide

ilovesleep wrote: »

Much like our own country except here people will lie down and take it all. Fair play to them out protesting. They are willing to stand up and be heard. Ireland has a bunch of lazy asses.

Sorry but am going to have to pull you up here.

UK - population 60 million odd - 250,000 march

ROI - population 4 million odd - therefore an equivalent march would have to be approx 16,000

We have seen many marches of plus 16,000 people in Ireland over the last few years.

But I suppose it is much easier just to throw out the old "Irish take it lying down" sh1te that everyone else says, than to actually consider the facts and figures involved

phosphate

Denerick wrote: »

I find the placards saying 'NO CUTS' to be both amusing and extraordinary. Do these people live in a fantasy world? There certainly is a case that the coalition is cutting too fast and too deep, but these people want to keep moving on like the recession never happened and the deficit didn't exist.

I agree my good minion, but look at the UK or US and look at the protests against cuts there.

How can the political establishment make a case for cuts while they blow up bombs worth hundreds of millions in dollars?

In our case, we're bailing out bond holders overseas.

Sure, cut away, bail out banks and bomb arabs overseas..just expect your own people to relinquish smashing the entire establishment to bits.

I'll be there fighting ignorant servile scum.

We'll write our own history, you'll just read about it.

Denerick

phosphate wrote: »

I agree my good minion, but look at the UK or US and look at the protests against cuts there.

How can the political establishment make a case for cuts while they blow up bombs worth hundreds of millions in dollars?

In our case, we're bailing out bond holders overseas.

Sure, cut away, bail out banks and bomb arabs overseas..just expect your own people to relinquish smashing the entire establishment to bits.

I'll be there fighting ignorant servile scum.

We'll write our own history, you'll just read about it.

BEHOLD! The New Socrates doth walk among us.

phosphate

what's funnier is you'll be in here bitchin about how stupid people are for protesting when it's your own neck on the line.

i have no problem with austerity as you know denerick.
it's quite a feeling to know people are worse off than i am..it gives me great joy.

Humans eh!

phosphate wrote: »

How can the political establishment make a case for cuts while they blow up bombs worth hundreds of millions in dollars?

When its your establishment friends who manufacture and profit from said bombs.

This is exactly the behaviour that alienates and disaffects the population who have to 'suffer & endure' cuts to their services. Aside from the rights and wrongs of each side the mere fact that there is disillusionment and radical resentment festering among the population should be a cause of great concern.

In this country it seems to be a more self inflicted malise that seems (IMHO) to be coming from annoyed taxpayers about supporting the burgeoning social welfare system but have no problem supporting a banking system that has brought Europe to a crossroads and Ireland to potential penury.

The Irish situation is mercifuly calmer but it bubbles away under the surface nonetheless albeit in a self punishing fashion.
For example the vitriol expressed against welfare recipients on boards can be quite jarring and a real eye opener. Considering that many of these vocal 'John Q' Taxpayers' are members of the protected public service who themselves are being bankrolled by German taxpayers only serves to highlight the absurdity of the situation.
I do think though that we are in a very changeable and volatile situation and could see major upheaval in Europe before the decade is out.

ilovesleep

Denerick wrote: »

This is an argument that doesn't wash, frankly. At the moment the German taxpayer is paying the wages of public sector workers here in Ireland; even though the average public sector work is paid far better than the average German one.

You can stand up and be heard all you want, but someone has to do the accountancy. And live in the real world.

Did you read the post that I replied to? The cuts happening in the uk are unfair and unportional and not evenly spread. The general public are sent the bills through cuts and taxes to pay for the cock-ups of their politicial leaders with those responsible being rewarded.

That is exactly whats happening here.

I understand irelands situation, and we are where we are but why is it only the people of this country paying the price and will be for a long time to come while those responsible for ruining irelands economy - ff, bankers, developers - are rewarded. We have all the reasons in the world to protest.

Einhard

Humans eh! wrote: »

Yes, logic has nothing to do with it, the problem lies in the fact that people are waking up to the fact that motivations for Government actions are usually done for reasons other than political idealism or concern for human rights. I don't think that they are opposed to Gadaffi's toppling, but the reasons behind it.

Let's not get carried away here. 250,000 peopke may sound like a lot, but considered against the population of the UK, or even just that of the greater London area, it's minisucle. Far more people attend Cheltenham every March, and nobody would extapolate from that that the citizens of the UK are all horse mad.

muletide wrote: »

Sorry but am going to have to pull you up here.

UK - population 60 million odd - 250,000 march

ROI - population 4 million odd - therefore an equivalent march would have to be approx 16,000

We have seen many marches of plus 16,000 people in Ireland over the last few years.

But I suppose it is much easier just to throw out the old "Irish take it lying down" sh1te that everyone else says, than to actually consider the facts and figures involved

You got there before me!:D Excellent point that's always overlooked.

ilovesleep wrote: »

I understand irelands situation, and we are where we are but why is it only the people of this country paying the price and will be for a long time to come while those responsible for ruining irelands economy - ff, bankers, developers - are rewarded. We have all the reasons in the world to protest.

How exactly are FF, the bankers, and the developers rewarded? Most FF TDs lost their seats, many developers have gone bankrupt, and I know of at least one who committed suicide. Although, there is that failed developer down in Wexford who got elected to the Dail. Perhaps that's who you are talking about when you speak of being rewarded?

karma_

Denerick wrote: »

BEHOLD! The New Socrates doth walk among us.

How clever of you.

Except the poster has a point. In Derry here, we just had the announcement that a planned new radiotherapy unit in Altnagelvin has been shelved leaving cancer patients in the North West having to travel across the breadth of the country to Belfast for treatment. And while this has been made we have £140 million being invested for sports stadia and an ongoing war in Afghanistan costing billions, not to mention how much this new bombing campaign is going to cost. And yes I am angry because I have immediate family affected by this decision.

phosphate

Denerick probably knows I have a point but just likes the attention on here.

Wonder what he'd do tomorrow if he became ill and couldn't afford to pay for healthcare.

Denerick, have you got health insurance? Do you like the existing model in the US where if you can't afford insurance, you die?

Einhard

phosphate wrote: »

Wonder what he'd do tomorrow if he became ill and couldn't afford to pay for healthcare.

Umm, probably do what I do, and get treated in the public system?

phosphate

So you're living in the US Einhard?

I'm talking about UK government cutting health services because they claim to have insufficient funding.

They seem to have an awful lot of money for bailing out banks and bombing poor people overseas.

Einhard

phosphate wrote: »

So you're living in the US Einhard?

No, but didn't think Denerick was either.

I'm talking about UK government cutting health services because they claim to have insufficient funding.

Not sure what that has to do with the health sector in the US...

phosphate

What I was implying is Denerick would be more in favour of everyone just having health insurance.

US have medicaid and medicare which are referred to as 'entitlement programmes' by some conservatives over there which provides basic health care for over 65's and those on low incomes.

I don't understand why it's such a priority for either countries to be spending billions ..even trillions of dollars each year invading foreign countries and bombing loads of poor people.

What about UK/US citizens? I don't want to go off topic, but if you're suggesting we should all embrace austerity for benefit of the banking and other corporate sectors, that's just a recipe for destruction of the country.

There's only so much people will tolerate before they just snap.

Humans eh!

Einhard wrote: »

Let's not get carried away here. 250,000 peopke may sound like a lot, but considered against the population of the UK, or even just that of the greater London area, it's minisucle. Far more people attend Cheltenham every March, and nobody would extapolate from that that the citizens of the UK are all horse mad.

I agree but I never assumed that every single person who thought that way will be on the march.
If only 1 in 20 people (sorry I am speculating here) who feel the same way attend (many people would be unable / unwilling or fearful to make their way into London) Thousands will be watching on TV or online with sympathy for the marchers. Thats a lot of people with an issue with the government.
My point is about the ideas germinating and growing and not really about numbers on the streets. Also enjoying horse racing and giving a damn where your country is headed and whether your children have a decent future with adequate services and healthcare are quite different.

Denerick

phosphate wrote: »

What I was implying is Denerick would be more in favour of everyone just having health insurance.

US have medicaid and medicare which are referred to as 'entitlement programmes' by some conservatives over there which provides basic health care for over 65's and those on low incomes.

I don't understand why it's such a priority for either countries to be spending billions ..even trillions of dollars each year invading foreign countries and bombing loads of poor people.

What about UK/US citizens? I don't want to go off topic, but if you're suggesting we should all embrace austerity for benefit of the banking and other corporate sectors, that's just a recipe for destruction of the country.

There's only so much people will tolerate before they just snap.

Sorry, but you're literally sending me to sleep. Your post provokes this in me: WTF are you talking about? 'servile scum' is what did it for me. Stick to the conspiracy theory forum.

phosphate

Denerick wrote: »

Sorry, but you're literally sending me to sleep. Your post provokes this in me: WTF are you talking about? 'servile scum' is what did it for me. Stick to the conspiracy theory forum.

ah now, Denis. it feels like you've stuck a knife in me with that response.
riveting stuff.

femur61

The PS in the UK earn a fraction of what the PS earn here, yes I know because I lived there, and I feel they do have a right to protest. Its a pity the PS here don't realise that part of our debt is us having to borrow 20m every year to support their wages and pensions.

ilovesleep

femur61 wrote: »

The PS in the UK earn a fraction of what the PS earn here, yes I know because I lived there, and I feel they do have a right to protest. Its a pity the PS here don't realise that part of our debt is us having to borrow 20m every year to support their wages and pensions.

I thought ireland was borrowing 20B a year for PS wages and SW benefits.

By the end of the austerity plan many many people, whether working or not, public sector or private sector, mortgage or no mortgage, will be living from week to week, hand to mouth. While FF politicians (the main group who ruined Irelands economy) will be living with celtic tiger pensions. By the attitude here on boards some people would be delighted with this and would be more than happy to allow some who belong in jail for ruining irelands economy due to negligence and fraud to reward them and allow them to walk away free. While the people of Ireland are sent the bills through cuts, higer taxes, less services.

Denerick

ilovesleep wrote: »

I thought ireland was borrowing 20B a year for PS wages and SW benefits.

By the end of the austerity plan many many people, whether working or not, public sector or private sector, mortgage or no mortgage, will be living from week to week, hand to mouth. While FF politicians (the main group who ruined Irelands economy) will be living with celtic tiger pensions. By the attitude here on boards some people would be delighted with this and would be more than happy to allow some who belong in jail for ruining irelands economy due to negligence and fraud to reward them and allow them to walk away free. While the people of Ireland are sent the bills through cuts, higer taxes, less services.

You're identifying two things here.

1) Punish those who caused the problem. This is half dealt with. FF have been removed from power and a number of white collar crimes are currently under investigation.

2) Relative necessity of austerity programmes. You identify a huge current account deficit already. Yet you criss cross your argument with point number one, which in reality has little to do with our deficit and how to eliminate it.

This is why I didn't respond to your banker bashing earlier on. its irrelevant. Whether guilty people are taken to charge or not is irrelevant. The fact is that there is a deficit that will not go away by shouting at bankers.

Spudmonkey

Denerick wrote: »

I find the placards saying 'NO CUTS' to be both amusing and extraordinary. Do these people live in a fantasy world? There certainly is a case that the coalition is cutting too fast and too deep, but these people want to keep moving on like the recession never happened and the deficit didn't exist.

Its all about kicking cans and leaving the next generation sort it out. How selfish would it be for the current generations to sort out their own problems.