Feeling out of it after deadlifts

deadlybuzzman

The last couple of weeks Ive been not feeling with it after my top set of deadlifts (tonight 165x10) Feeling lightheaded right after is to be expected but it comes and goes for the rest of the session and when I go home Id still not be quite right.
Ive taken 2 5ml scoops of caffine powder preworkout for the last few sessions so Im figurin its either this or the deads themselves. Just wondered if it happens anyone else

Inspector Coptoor

How often would do 165kg x 10?
what percentage of your 1rm is that?

I'd never really go above 3-5 reps with any weight over 100kg.

Could you split that top set in 2 sets of 5 and see if that makes a difference?

deadlybuzzman

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

How often would do 165kg x 10?
what percentage of your 1rm is that?

I'd never really go above 3-5 reps with any weight over 100kg.

Could you split that top set in 2 sets of 5 and see if that makes a difference?

Im doing wendlers 5/3/1 and this was my 3rd week in the cycle. I warm up to my work sets with sets of 3, this weeks sets were 135x5 150x3 and an all out set of 165x 10. last week it was 5kg lower per set and 160x8 I think, again it was an all out set but I stop when form starts to go as opposed to grinding out reps in slow motion
next week ill be deloading anyway but just wondered as Im progressing into heavier and heavier loads is this just part of the territory?

Hanley

Is the 10 reps balls out??

Cos if it is, I'm not surprised you feel wiped. 10 reps on DLs are f*cking tough.

Inspector Coptoor

Right, so this week was week 3 and the prescribed reps were 165 x 1 and you got 10.

so by my calculations, your training max at the moment is 165/0.95 = 174kg which represents 90% of your true 1RM which would be 174/.90 = 193kg.

I think you're actual 1RM is higher than 193 if you can hit 165 x 10, and if that is the case, then you;re not following the 5/3/1 protocol properly as the numbers and percentages are off.

I did 5/3/1 for 14 cycles.
It worked for me when i was milling the calories in on a Michael Phelps type diet but it stopped being in any way effective when I went on a deficit

itsallaboutheL

You can't gauge somebodys 1RM deadlift off a 10 reps set.

You can't even guesstimate it tbh.

mloc

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

Ive taken 2 5ml scoops of caffine powder preworkout

What is in the caffeine powder? As in, is it pure caffeine or a mix of different things?

Inspector Coptoor

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

You can't gauge somebodys 1RM deadlift off a 10 reps set.

You can't even guesstimate it tbh.

O RLY?

This is from the 5/3/1 manual

Weight x Reps x .0333 + Weight = Estimated 1RM

so therefore

165 x 10 x 0.0333 + 165 = 220kg

itsallaboutheL

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

O RLY?

This is from the 5/3/1 manual

Weight x Reps x .0333 + Weight = Estimated 1RM

so therefore

165 x 10 x 0.0333 + 165 = 220kg

That's ****ing stupid.

Hanley

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

O RLY?

This is from the 5/3/1 manual

Weight x Reps x .0333 + Weight = Estimated 1RM

so therefore

165 x 10 x 0.0333 + 165 = 220kg

I'm going to say you're 10rm is 165 x10 x.345262457

That's my guestimate.

the drifter

oh well if its in the manual then it has to be true....

Hanley

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

That's ****ing stupid.

It is tbh.

I'm pretty sure it also says somewhere in the manual that the forumla should only really be used to gauge progress. Not as an actual 1rm gauge.

Inspector Coptoor

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

That's ****ing stupid.

you said you couldnt guesstimate it, this says you can whether you think its stupid or not

Hanley wrote: »

I'm going to say you're 10rm is 165 x10 x.345262457

That's my guestimate.

source please

the drifter wrote: »

oh well if its in the manual then it has to be true....

He's Back..........

Im not gonna defend 5/3/1 ever again.
but that's just a formula in the book for calculating maxes.
I had to wipe the dust off my signed copy there.
Its now gone back in the box marked "bad memories"

d'Oracle

the drifter wrote: »

oh well if its in the manual then it has to be true....

Think of it as a training tool.

itsallaboutheL

I'm not knocking the formula, i've used it.

But with much lower reps, and taking in to account how hard the reps were and what state i was in at the time.

There are so many variables in a random persons 10rep max set that it's not even funny.

I don't even agree with what i just said, what's a ten rep max? it's like a gauge of how stupid a person is more than a gauge of strength.

Not directed at the OP btw.

Inspector Coptoor

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

I'm not knocking the formula, i've used it.

But with much lower reps, and taking in to account how hard the reps were and what state i was in at the time.

There are so many variables in a random persons 10rep max set that it's not even funny.

I don't even agree with what i just said, what's a ten rep max? it's like a gauge of how stupid a person is more than a gauge of strength.

Not directed at the OP btw.

I agree with you

Hanley

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

you said you couldnt guesstimate it, this says you can whether you think its stupid or not

Guesstimates are stupid. They don't matter. The act of trying to guestimate off a 10rm is nothing more than mental masturbation.

source please

EDIT: because I said so

Are we not playing by those rules? I'll write it in a book if it makes it more valid...

Remmy

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

The last couple of weeks Ive been not feeling with it after my top set of deadlifts (tonight 165x10) Feeling lightheaded right after is to be expected but it comes and goes for the rest of the session and when I go home Id still not be quite right.
Ive taken 2 5ml scoops of caffine powder preworkout for the last few sessions so Im figurin its either this or the deads themselves. Just wondered if it happens anyone else

Thats my 1rm on deads.I now feel extremely weak.Thanks..:D

the drifter

Hanley wrote: »

Guesstimates are stupid. They don't matter. The act of trying to guestimate off a 10rm is nothing more than mental masturbation.






EDIT: because I said so

Are we not playing by those rules? I'll write it in a book if it makes it more valid...

if you write it in russian its .0333 times better...

itsallaboutheL

Remmy wrote: »

Thats my 1rm on deads.I now feel extremely weak.Thanks..:D

deadlybuzzman

Hanley wrote: »

Is the 10 reps balls out??

Cos if it is, I'm not surprised you feel wiped. 10 reps on DLs are f*cking tough.

holy handbags batman, I didnt expect that amount of replys so fast espec from the fitness boards main men!
Yeah thatd be balls out its weird though as Im not as out of breath as I would with squats on a balls out set maxing at say 120ish x 8

d'Oracle

Guesstimate is a silly word.

itsallaboutheL

d'Oracle wrote: »

Guesstimate is a silly word.

I was using it for emphasis, it's a literary technique.

Probably.

Used in books, by people who can read and stuffs.

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

holy handbags batman, I didnt expect that amount of replys so fast espec from the fitness boards main men!
Yeah thatd be balls out its weird though as Im not as out of breath as I would with squats on a balls out set maxing at say 120ish x 8

That's because you're sandbagging your squats.

It's easy to pull loads of reps on DLs. If you miss one ya just drop the bar, and you don't have to support it during reps.

High rep squats require serious balls, and are something you have to learn how to do. If you miss them **** can go very bad, and learning how not to panic with a loaded bar on your back when you're struggling to breathe and staying standing is a skill that takes time to acquire.

So while your perceived exertion may be the same on both, the actual demand you're placing on your body, versus what it's ACTUALLY capable of at any given point in time is much higher wit the DLs than the squats.

The coin will flip once you start to grit out high rep squats. Also... 8 isn't high reps

deadlybuzzman

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

Right, so this week was week 3 and the prescribed reps were 165 x 1 and you got 10.

so by my calculations, your training max at the moment is 165/0.95 = 174kg which represents 90% of your true 1RM which would be 174/.90 = 193kg.

I think you're actual 1RM is higher than 193 if you can hit 165 x 10, and if that is the case, then you;re not following the 5/3/1 protocol properly as the numbers and percentages are off.

I did 5/3/1 for 14 cycles.
It worked for me when i was milling the calories in on a Michael Phelps type diet but it stopped being in any way effective when I went on a deficit

Yeah Im well under my true training max but thats because Ive stuck to adding 5kg to my training max each cycle and Ive found when keeping my top set reps at 7 or more I keep progressing nice and steady, whereas when I drop down to 5 or less progress really slows.
As Wendler and many more say-you cant go too light(within reason).

itsallaboutheL

Have you pulled any low reps lately?

deadlybuzzman

Remmy wrote: »

Thats my 1rm on deads.I now feel extremely weak.Thanks..:D

Theres always hope-160x1 was my pr till nov!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056017954&page=13

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

Yeah Im well under my true training max but thats because Ive stuck to adding 5kg to my training max each cycle and Ive found when keeping my top set reps at 7 or more I keep progressing nice and steady, whereas when I drop down to 5 or less progress really slows.
As Wendler and many more say-you cant go too light(within reason).

Ok... I spent about 10 minutes on FB chat explaining to L why I think high rep deads can be good. And now I'm about to tell you why I think they're stupid.

Pulling high reps all the time will do sh!t all for your 1rm. The demands are totally different.

A good 1rm requires lots of starting strength. Training with higher reps doesn't require that aspect to be trained because the intensity isn't sufficient, so while your high rep rms might go up, your 1rm won't follow proportionally.

You get away with sh*t tekkers with the lighter weights too. It's entirely possible to pull a bad 10rm and still be f*cked. You won't pull a high 1rm without good form.

*Waits for L's head to explode at the complete contradiction I've made

Inspector Coptoor

^^Nail. Head.

I remember getting 162.5kg x 14 and struggling to get 202.5kg at the single lifts last year and got 1 red flag like.

deadlybuzzman

Hanley wrote: »

That's because you're sandbagging your squats.

It's easy to pull loads of reps on DLs. If you miss one ya just drop the bar, and you don't have to support it during reps.

High rep squats require serious balls, and are something you have to learn how to do. If you miss them **** can go very bad, and learning how not to panic with a loaded bar on your back when you're struggling to breathe and staying standing is a skill that takes time to acquire.

So while your perceived exertion may be the same on both, the actual demand you're placing on your body, versus what it's ACTUALLY capable of at any given point in time is much higher wit the DLs than the squats.

The coin will flip once you start to grit out high rep squats. Also... 8 isn't high reps

Oh that sounds like a challenge!! actually until lately 8 reps and above for me was practically cardio!!
I get what your saying though, dont wimp out calling it maxing out when really it could be just midset.
Funnily enough I was only reading about the difference between percieved and actual exertion in Supertraining the other day.......I think those test subjects were getting electrocuted though!!

itsallaboutheL

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Have you pulled any low reps lately?

His answer was clearly going to lead on to this. Stop stealing my brain.

Hanley wrote: »

Ok... I spent about 10 minutes on FB chat explaining to L why I think high rep deads can be good. And now I'm about to tell you why I think they're stupid.

Pulling high reps all the time will do sh!t all for your 1rm. The demands are totally different.

A good 1rm requires lots of starting strength. Training with higher reps doesn't require that aspect to be trained because the intensity isn't sufficient, so while your high rep rms might go up, your 1rm won't follow proportionally.

You get away with sh*t tekkers with the lighter weights too. It's entirely possible to pull a bad 10rm and still be f*cked. You won't pull a high 1rm without good form.

*Waits for L's head to explode at the complete contradiction I've made

Also, to follow on from what we were talking about.

I was basically saying that if you're doing 10 reps on DL it should be on a variation to target a specific area.

RDLs/SLDLs whatever. As assistance.

You were saying that it's good because of overload priciples..

I was saying that 2 different people pulling from the floor are going to overload different areas to a different degree.

Then you said some other crap and i said i was too tired to listen to your ****.

Basically my point, was that imo.

Pulling from the floor should either be light speed work, or heavy low rep stuff.


Pulling over 5s the breakdown in from is goign to be so much that you're basically ingraining an alien/non-efficient movement pattern, and you end up pulling slowly with sub-maximal weights.

However.

If as you say the aim is to overload, then pick deadlift variations where you can target specific parts of the movement/muscle groups thereby lessening breakdown of form/ use of inefficient technique.

I have no idea what i just said.

Hanley

This whole topic's got so many contradictions, caveats and qualifications that it would make your head spin. Basically... just keep it balanced.

The majority of your deadlift training should be focused around getting stronger with relatively high weight, and relatively low reps with perfect form on each rep. Some higher reps for a few weeks every now and again will be of benefit for several reasons, but doing it all the time when your goal is increasing your deadlift 1rm is stupid.

When it comes to assistance stuff, arguments can be made for high rep, low rep and everything in between. It all has it's place.

I dunno if failing to nail a flag to the mast is considered uncool these days... but there's no 'one' answer. And anyone who gives is a completely specific answer without qualifying it is a f*cking charlatan and should be ignored and ridiculed.

Inspector Coptoor

So, eh, it depends................................

itsallaboutheL

Just don't hitch.

Hanley

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

His answer was clearly going to lead on to this. Stop stealing my brain.



Also, to follow on from what we were talking about.

I was basically saying that if you're doing 10 reps on DL it should be on a variation to target a specific area.

RDLs/SLDLs whatever. As assistance.

You were saying that it's good because of overload priciples..

I was saying that 2 different people pulling from the floor are going to overload different areas to a different degree.

Yah I get what you were saying there.... if you've identified a weak point, target it with assitance work. Never disagreed on that.

I also never said I'd use high rep DLs to target a specific weak point - they just work everything in the chain. If you're grip's sh*t, high rep DLs are gonna be a b*tch for that, same with lockout, same with supporting strength.

The only thing high rep DLs aren't any use for imo is for working starting strength. You could argue the load will be light enough pull it fast ala speed pulls, but it's not light enough to do it the way it should be done, plus fatigue will prevent it.

Basically my point, was that imo.

Pulling from the floor should either be light speed work, or heavy low rep stuff.

Agree... and that's what like 80-90% of my DL'n training woulda been. But the high rep stuff's a nice break that can be used to work on some different aspects of the chain every now and again.

I really don't think you can work pure strength training year-round. You need a break.

Pulling over 5s the breakdown in from is goign to be so much that you're basically ingraining an alien/non-efficient movement pattern, and you end up pulling slowly with sub-maximal weights.

Don't let your form breakdown. Force it to stay right. That's how the supporting strength I was talking about is built. Simples.

However.

If as you say the aim is to overload, then pick deadlift variations where you can target specific parts of the movement/muscle groups thereby lessening breakdown of form/ use of inefficient technique.

I'm not trying to overload nything specific when doing high rep DLs... just give everything a good flogging in a different way.

Geddit?

Hanley

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

So, eh, it depends................................

....launches into the 'it's a continuum' speech.

itsallaboutheL

If i say yes can i go to sleep?


P.S itsallabouttheSnatchPull

deadlybuzzman

Hanley wrote: »

Ok... I spent about 10 minutes on FB chat explaining to L why I think high rep deads can be good. And now I'm about to tell you why I think they're stupid.

Pulling high reps all the time will do sh!t all for your 1rm. The demands are totally different.

A good 1rm requires lots of starting strength. Training with higher reps doesn't require that aspect to be trained because the intensity isn't sufficient, so while your high rep rms might go up, your 1rm won't follow proportionally.

You get away with sh*t tekkers with the lighter weights too. It's entirely possible to pull a bad 10rm and still be f*cked. You won't pull a high 1rm without good form.

*Waits for L's head to explode at the complete contradiction I've made

yeah its a contradiction thats annoyed me for a while too-ages back I read a post you put on about 5/3/1 being poor for maximal strength and lacking volume-it made total sense got me thinking and I started not going for max reps but sticking to the perscribed reps and pulling singles for multiple sets as what happened to be in the 5/3/1 for powerlifters article that came out around the same time.
Only problem was progress... there was none, after getting a 175x1 pr things stalled and then started slipping backwards, maybe I was doing it wrong but Ive gone back to this for now and the numbers are going back up again. If and when I decide to try out at a meet Ill start working my way to a 1rm max but for now things are going in the right direction and 10 reps with a weight I struggled to lift once just a few months ago is a good foundation.....I hope!!

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

yeah its a contradiction thats annoyed me for a while too-ages back I read a post you put on about 5/3/1 being poor for maximal strength and lacking volume-it made total sense got me thinking and I started not going for max reps but sticking to the perscribed reps and pulling singles for multiple sets as what happened to be in the 5/3/1 for powerlifters article that came out around the same time.
Only problem was progress... there was none, after getting a 175x1 pr things stalled and then started slipping backwards, maybe I was doing it wrong but Ive gone back to this for now and the numbers are going back up again. If and when I decide to try out at a meet Ill start working my way to a 1rm max but for now things are going in the right direction and 10 reps with a weight I struggled to lift once just a few months ago is a good foundation.....I hope!!

Well do you see what you did there....??

You did something and made progress (low reps), then it stalled out so you did something different and made progress (high reps), that'll stall, and then yo'll need to do something again.

Which pretty much ties into exactly what I was saying about it all having value, and just needing to be applied at the right time, in the right way. Everything works, nothing works forever.

If you wanna talk about what you did specifically, if you were pulling near max singles (>90%) frequently, then I'm not surprised you weren't making progress. Your body just can't handle that... so it may be the case that you were doing the right thing, but just applying it poorly.

I've never ready the 5/3/1 for powerlifters article mainly because when 5/3/1 came out it was pretty anti-powerlifting. So to transition it into a powerlifting program now just seems a bit ridiculous.

deadlybuzzman

As regards assistance work I do Romanian deadlifts, I vary between 3 and 4 sets of 8-10 reps-lighter higher reps at the start of the cycle and reducing volume slightly towards the end. this week 60x8 100x8 100x8 100x10-sort of along the lines of boring but big.
ANYWAY-brain fried after session-caffine? CNS overload? inhalation of chalk causing zombie deadlifters syndrome?!!

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

As regards assistance work I vary between 3 and 4 sets of 8-10 reps-lighter higher reps at the start of the cycle and reducing volume slightly towards the end. this week 60x8 100x8 100x8 100x10-sort of along the lines of boring but big.
ANYWAY-brain fried after session-caffine? CNS overload? inhalation of chalk causing zombie deadlifters syndrome?!!

Maybe a max set of 10 reps is just f*cking hard on your body and you don't need to come up with some esoteric reason?

itsallaboutheL

The trouble with deadlifting as your deadlift assistance is that you're not addressing weaknesses your cementing strengths

deadlybuzzman

Hanley wrote: »

Well do you see what you did there....??

You did something and made progress (low reps), then it stalled out so you did something different and made progress (high reps), that'll stall, and then yo'll need to do something again.

Which pretty much ties into exactly what I was saying about it all having value, and just needing to be applied at the right time, in the right way. Everything works, nothing works forever.

If you wanna talk about what you did specifically, if you were pulling near max singles (>90%) frequently, then I'm not surprised you weren't making progress. Your body just can't handle that... so it may be the case that you were doing the right thing, but just applying it poorly.

I've never ready the 5/3/1 for powerlifters article mainly because when 5/3/1 came out it was pretty anti-powerlifting. So to transition it into a powerlifting program now just seems a bit ridiculous.

Yeah Id strongly agree with the everything works for a while thing, and I do keep a close eye on the numbers to make sure it keeps working, the beauty of it is I can slap 10kg on the bar to shake things up of needs be-point taken about the 90% 1rm though.
I dunno if he was anti powerlifting as much as he was anti what he became when powerlifting, fat, out of shape and not much good for anything else but the 3 lifts

deadlybuzzman

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

The trouble with deadlifting as your deadlift assistance is that you're not addressing weaknesses your cementing strengths

just spotted I didnt specify theyre romanian deads I do for assistance work-just edited there.
I figured Hams dont get that much work on squats day so I hit them-pull ups weighted pull ups are done for upper back and sometimes kroc rows if Im feeling sadistic or in bad humour

deadlybuzzman

Hanley wrote: »

Maybe a max set of 10 reps is just f*cking hard on your body and you don't need to come up with some esoteric reason?

well If my bodys that soft Im just gonna have to go into denial!

Zamboni

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

Feeling lightheaded right after is to be expected but it comes and goes for the rest of the session and when I go home Id still not be quite right.

Sounds like a deadly buzz, man.

*gets coat*

gymsoldier

Were you doing 10x165 for your deload?

Hanley

gymsoldier wrote: »

Were you doing 10x165 for your deload?

He said he was on the 3rd week of the cycle, so no - that's the 5/3/1 week.

gymsoldier

Hanley wrote: »

He said he was on the 3rd week of the cycle, so no - that's the 5/3/1 week.

Ah cool, must have missed that, kinda flew trough reading it.

d'Oracle

I like this thread.
I thought it was screwed after the first page, but then it went good.
Top work, gentlemen.

deadlybuzzman

yeah went on a bit of a tangent but glad I threw the question out there!