Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Depleted Uranium

  • 25-03-2011 8:17am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭


    I've often heard about this stuff and decided to look it up. I was a little surprised to see that it is a byproduct of uranium enrichment. 99.27% of natural uranium is DU or uranium 238. So when fuel is made for the worlds reactors, there is a lot of U238 left over.
    What to do with it? Oh yes, knock up a load of bombs and shells and spray them all over someone else, therby giving them cancer for ever.
    Well, 4.468 billion years to be exact....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-238
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
    Thats some half life.
    So whats the conspiracy?
    I'm not sure exactly, but there is an awful lot of DU being used around the world.http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/IPesic/ResearchPaper.htm
    http://www.grassrootspeace.org/yagasaki_dushells.pdf
    An awful lot of nuclear waste being converted to dust as it hits its target and causes pain and misery far beyond when it was first fired at its target.
    The military are certainly loving it!
    The nuclear industry is certainly enjoying not having to store the stuff in costly bunkers for the next 4.468 billion years!
    Now i'm understanding a bit more about the "pro nuclear" lobby and their motives. (In this case, the motive is how to get rid of nuclear waste cheaply, but there may be more)
    What say you Boardsies? Should we (globally) be concerned about this stuff? Or are the stories from Bosnia etc. about not being able to eat food or drink water from certain areas complete tosh?


Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    Just a reminder people. Don't post graphic pics, if you need to link to them with a warning.

    Cheers,

    yekahS


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    OP, without going into the science too deeply, do you know how radioactive depleted uranium is? If its half-life is measured in billions of years, then it sounds less radioactive than - say - granite. I think the real damage that DU causes is not due to radioactivity, it's more down to heavy-metal poisoning, a bit like how people used to be poisoned by lead pipes used for drinking water, or mercury exposure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Very true. I should have thought about that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,070 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    I don't see the point in why they use it to produce weapons. It may not be as radioactive as one would think, but it's still a dangerous substance and can have an effect on people who are not being targeted with the weapons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    I don't see the point in why they use it to produce weapons. It may not be as radioactive as one would think, but it's still a dangerous substance and can have an effect on people who are not being targeted with the weapons.
    When did that ever stop them? Cluster bombs, mines - the same :mad:


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    I'm not defending the use of DU, as I don't think nearly enough research has been done into it yet. In any case, defending the use of any weapons in acts of aggression is always immoral irregardless of the long-term consequences, given the short term consequences is death.

    The reason militaries use DU is because it is so dense, and cheap. Its about 70% denser than lead, and therefore can penetrate most armours. Its most common use is in defensive role as an armour plating on tanks and APCs, rather than offensive weapons. In offensive use, it is supposed to be restricted to use against armoured targets, but inevitably its used against soft targets too.

    Most people when defending its use will point to the WHO report in 2003 which stated that there are "no risk of reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects have been reported in humans due to DU exposure.

    But like I said at the start, I don't think there has been adequate research into it, and armies shouldn't be adopting a shoot first, study the results later approach. But when has that ever stopped them before....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    a billion years of fuel supply, did it say a billions years of fuel supply?

    I never knew that. If so no more argument, we have the holy grail, we exist because of nuclear power [The Sun] our future is in nuclear technologies.

    I was told a few years ago that an Alpha Particle reactor could fit inside my AAA battery cell and power my new digital camera for ten years, whereas my 4 AAA batteries lasted just two hours at a pinch.

    Development is stunted because of bans on nuclear development and safety regulations. The engineer told me there would need to be a better understanding of nuclear as not all of it is harmful, but the legislation was drafted under the mindset that anything nuclear was a radioactive fall out massive explosion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    A billion years indeed. But the use of nuclear waste, otherwise known as DU is, to me, highly questionable. How is that allowed to go on?:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭uprising2


    yekahS wrote: »
    Just a reminder people. Don't post graphic pics, if you need to link to them with a warning.

    Most people when defending its use will point to the WHO report in 2003 which stated that there are "no risk of reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects have been reported in humans due to DU exposure.

    But like I said at the start, I don't think there has been adequate research into it, and armies shouldn't be adopting a shoot first, study the results later approach. But when has that ever stopped them before....

    Most people objecting to the use of DU weapons will point to things such as:

    Deformed Iraqi babies caused by USA use of depleted uranium


    The following pictures were provided by Dr. Siegwart Horst-Gunther, authored of a 1996 book titled, "URANIUM PROJECTILES - SEVERELY MAIMED SOLDIERS, DEFORMED BABIES, DYING CHILDREN" (ISBN: 3-89484-805-7). The book is a documentary record of the depleted urnaium ammunition effects on Iraqi babies that were taken between 1993 and 1995. The book has been censored in the USA. Dr. Gunther also has in his possesion additional photographs from his unpublished collection which feature the birth deformities being experienced by USA Iraqi war veterans' children. Dr. Gunther has given permission for his pictures to be treated as 'Public Domain' and copyright free. Please reproduce them and distribute them as widely as possible. The deformities are similar to those experienced by both Vietnam war veterans and Vietnamese mothers because of the US Military/Industrial Complex's use of the abominable chemical of mass destruction called "Agent Orange". The Pentagon has swept these American baby deformities and its causes under the rug.

    WARNING GRAPHIC PICS
    http://www.aztlan.net/du_deformed_iraqi_babies.htm



    UK and US forces have continued to use depleted uranium weapons despite warnings they pose a cancer risk, a BBC investigation has found.

    Doctors in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, have reported a significant increase in deformities among newborn babies

    The US classifies a "dirty bomb" as an explosive device that permeates the surrounding area with radioactive/biological/chemical material.

    Herbert Reed, 52, a veteran of Iraq. Reed was exposed to radioactive depleted uranium while serving a few months with the 442nd Military Police out of New York.

    Daughter of Soldier Contaminated with Depleted Uranium in Iraq Born with Deformities

    A BBC investigation can reveal that the US and UK military have continued to use depleted uranium weapons despite warnings from scientists that it poses a potential long-term cancer risk to civilians.

    "Forget about oil, occupation, terrorism or even Al-Qaeda.

    The real hazard for Iraqis these days is cancer.

    Cancer is spreading like wildfire in Iraq.

    Thousands of infants are being born with deformities.

    Doctors say they are struggling to cope with the rise of cancer and birth defects, especially in cities subjected to heavy American and British bombardment." — Jalal Ghazi, for New America Media
    All the above quotes from this link, lot's of news articles and pictures of deformed children due to depleted uranium..WARNING
    http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/depleted_uranium_iraq_afghanistan_balkans.html
    http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/DU-Baby2003.htm
    shedweller wrote: »
    A billion years indeed. But the use of nuclear waste, otherwise known as DU is, to me, highly questionable. How is that allowed to go on?:mad:

    Because the kunts who use it are the world police and their allies, so it's ok.
    Imagine it in the hands of terrorists, that would be terrible, innocent people would be hurt if terrorists had DU weapons, so just stay quiet and be happy the good guys have them, be a good citizen, watch the game having a bud.

    It kills 2 birds with one stone, pierces armour and helps get rid of radioactive material fairly cheaply.

    Also its good to study the effects of DU incase terrorists ever use it in US.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    A fair bit to read there, thanks. The more i read this stuff the more i wonder how it is allowed to continue. It's just not good stuff to be throwing around.
    But the "good guys" have it so it must be ok.:rolleyes:
    It's damaging effects are supressed quite well too.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    uprising2 wrote: »
    Also its good to study the effects of DU incase terrorists ever use it in US.
    Bear in mind thought that as stated above the damage from DU is mostly (almost entirely?) due to heavy metal poisoning. It wouldn't be much use to terrorists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Here is a list of "current issues" with DU manufacturing facilities:http://www.wise-uranium.org/dissmf.html
    Here is one of the more choice quotes:
    U.S. Army agrees to pay for removal of depleted uranium from Starmet Concord site

    The U.S. Army has agreed to pay for the removal and disposal of more than 3,700 barrels of depleted uranium from the Starmet facility in Concord, a Superfund site. The Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) will select a hazardous materials packaging and transportation contractor and the removal process is expected to begin in three to four months. The process, which will be supervised by DEP staff, could take between four and six months. (Boston Globe April 2, 2004)

    Here is some more light reading:http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/duupdate.htm
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The DU project and review of previous research reinforced the original conclusions and recommendations that we developed while still in Saudi Arabia and which are just plain simple common sense. These recommendations were / are:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 1. All depleted uranium contamination must be physically removed and properly disposed of to prevent future exposures.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 2. Radiation detection devices that detect and measure alpha particles, beta particles, x-rays, and gamma rays emissions at appropriate levels from 20 dpm up to 100,000 dpm and from .1 mrem/ hour to 75 mrem/ hour must be acquired and distributed to all individuals or organizations responsible for medical care and environmental remediation activities involving depleted uranium / uranium 238 and other low level radioactive isotopes that may be present.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 3. Medical screening of all individuals who did or may have inhaled, ingested, or had wound contamination to detect mobile and sequestered internalized uranium contamination must be completed.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 4. All individuals who enter, climb on, or work within 25 meters of any DU contaminated equipment or terrain must wear respiratory and skin protection.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 5. Uranium 238 contaminated and damaged equipment or materials should not be recycled to manufacture new materials or equipment.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]WHAT HAS OCCURRED?[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Visual evidence, personal experience, and published reports verify that:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 1. Medical care has not been provided to all DU casualties.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 2. Environmental remediation has not been completed.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 3. DU contaminated and damaged equipment and materials have been recycled to manufacture new products.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 4. DU training and education has only been partially implemented.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 5. DU contamination management procedures have not been distributed.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN NEXT?[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The international community and all citizens of the world must raise a unified voice in opposition to future use of depleted uranium munitions and force those nations that have used depleted uranium munitions to recognize the immoral consequences of their actions and assume responsibility for medical care and thorough environmental remediation. Specifically:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1. Depleted uranium munitions and the use of depleted uranium must be banned. [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]2. All individuals who were exposed or who may have been exposed to any form of depleted uranium and its various integral contaminants or other contaminants created during combat, research, or training activities must receive a through physical examination and medical care to alleviate or cure the physiological consequences caused by inhalation, ingestion, or uranium wound contamination.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]3. All depleted uranium penetrator fragments, depleted uranium contaminated equipment, and depleted uranium oxide contamination must be cleaned up and disposed of at secure sites. [/FONT][/FONT]
    Point 1 says that DU weapons should be banned. Well, of course they should, but what will they do with their nuclear waste then? Pay to store it? HA! Not likely! This is big business and it's not going to stop any time soon. Is there much on the news about this? :rolleyes:

    Here is a page describing how uranium is made, where it can be found etc. Its just for information:http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/fuelcycle/centrifuges/U_production.html


    And finally, someone else, other than me and a handful of Boardsies that have concerns about DU:http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/i/20.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    I don't see the point in why they use it to produce weapons. It may not be as radioactive as one would think, but it's still a dangerous substance and can have an effect on people who are not being targeted with the weapons.
    One of the more interesting properties of DU is that when it strikes its target, instead of mushrooming and spreading the load, it melts into a sharp point. Between the melting and the sharpness it forces its way through armour easily. The sharp point machined on each DU round is the shape it melts into as it goes through the armour. Great, but whatever it hit should then be classified as nuclear waste. The firing ranges they are tested in are treated as such. The foreign countries they use DU in don't have that privilege.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Some videos of the effects of DU. Warning, Disturbing material.

    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSCCsUV7PqQ&feature=related

    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9MNQDQXkzs&feature=related

    :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    I think the term Depleted Uranium (DU) conjures up more fear than fact.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not defending it. However, there's a lot of bad information out there, let's get that out of the way.

    The DU used by the military is actually the "cleaned up" version. All of the truly nasty stuff, such as Plutonium, Thorium, and the active Isotopes of Uranium are recovered for future use - recycled.

    The remaining DU has very low levels of radioactivity. It does emit α, β, and γ rays. However, radioactivity is not major problem.

    α can be blocked by a your skin, or a piece of paper if need be. They are pretty big, like a He that lost its e's. That does not mean they are not dangerous.

    β can be blocked by a sheet of tin foil. That does not mean they are not dangerous.

    γ rays are tough to block - get out some Pb. Fortunately, the amount of γ-rays present in DU is very low. So low that it does not significantly contribute a noticeable amount to the background radiation.

    From what I remember in University, DU is 40% less active than the naturally occurring chunk of ore they started with before the enrichment process. Which wasn't anywhere near the levels of the truly scary stuff: Pu239, Cs137, or I131. If you want to be concerned, then be concerned about the last two. They are much more radioactive - I'll have to check again, but from memory I believe we are talking a trillion times more active.

    Now again, I am not saying that you should take α, β, or γ rays lightly. They may not dangerous to the exterior, but they are a problem when they get inside us. Such as when we eat something, drink something or breathe something.

    When it gets into your body DU will pose more of a chemically toxic threat than a radiological. Again, not defending it, chemical toxicity is true of all heavy metals in the body.

    This is a fundamental problem with munitions - fine particles of the DU becoming suspended in the air after the strike and being breathed in.
    SuperStock_1889R-31362.jpg

    Ever see those picturesque images of a cow grazing in a field near a nuclear plant? Well, rest assured you will never drink that milk. The cows are there for a reason - they are an indicator species.

    If you didn't already know to stay away from dairy in regions where there are problems: Japan and Chernobyl for example, now you do. Giving children contaminated milk wreaks havoc on their fast growing thyroids. This was probably the single greatest cause of childhood cancers in the Chernobyl area. Very preventable. Not recent science.

    Every day those cows are milked. The milk is sent to a lab that runs tests.

    I have been to one such facility at Brookhaven labs. I remember walking into a room with several hundred bottles of milk and being weirded out. Next came the logical question. The answer to which was that cows are one of the quickest, cheapest, most reliable ways of testing for even the slightest leak. If there's a leak, the milk will show.

    So again, I am not defending its use, just trying to clear up a few misconceptions.

    Probably should have done this on the Physics forum and not the CT!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    shedweller wrote: »
    One of the more interesting properties of DU is that when it strikes its target, instead of mushrooming and spreading the load, it melts into a sharp point.

    I am very interested to learn more about how something can melt into a sharp point.

    Do you have a link or source that explains the Physics behind such an event?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Thanks FISMA.

    The radiation risk from DU is secondary from it intended task, armour penetration.
    Kinetic energy penetrator rounds consist of a long, relatively thin penetrator surrounded by discarding sabot
    On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties. When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew, and possibly causing the vehicle to explode

    The legality of DU as a nuclear weapon is still unclear and there is no specific treaty ban on the control or use of DU weapons at the moment.
    Britian and France seem to be quite vociferous in vetoing a ban on DU weapons in the EU. Belgium already has banned it, I wonder if Ireland would ever follow suit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭uprising2


    Some info on DU.
    This stuff is not harmless, gulf war 1 was the testing ground and look at the cancer rate there now and among the service men and women who were guine pigs, GWS lies and cover-up, US looking after their hero's mental health when they return from a kill or be killed session in a far away land for a reason that stopped making sense a long time ago, but it was too bad by then so they had to stay just a little bit longer to teach freedom.
    But the effect's of Depleted Uranium cannot be swept under the carpet, it's a radioactive cancer causing material that should not be used in weapons when the eventual resting spot of this radioactive material will be contaminated for

    Warning: These video's may show the truth of D.U. deformed babies.








    Depleted Uranium Radioactive Contamination In Iraq: An Overview
    Abstract
    Depleted Uranium (DU) weaponry has been used against Iraq for the first time in the history of recent wars. The magnitude of the complications and damage related to the use of such radioactive and toxic weapons on the environment and the human population mostly results from the intended concealment, denial and misleading information released by the Pentagon about the quantities, characteristics and the area’s in Iraq, in which these weapons have been used.
    http://www.brussellstribunal.org/DU-Azzawi.htm


    FISMA:
    Regarding the point:
    On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Ammunition

    What is causing deformities in Fallujah's children?
    Questions have been raised over the number of deformities found in young children in Fallujah, Iraq, after a paediatrician told the BBC there are two to three cases each day in one hospital.
    In 2004 Fallujah was the scene of heavy fighting in which the US military eventually regained control of the city. Local people told the BBC they suspect US forces used white phosphorus and depleted uranium (DU), although this has not been proved.

    A dense metal used in armour-piercing shells, DU is both radioactive and toxic and has been linked to lung cancer and kidney failure. But the evidence is not conclusive, and a US study in 2005 found that it should not cause cancer or birth defects.
    http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2010/03/what-is-causing-deformities-in.html



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    FISMA wrote: »
    I am very interested to learn more about how something can melt into a sharp point.

    Do you have a link or source that explains the Physics behind such an event?
    Sure can:http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo4/no1/research-recherch-eng.asp
    Andrews-8-fig7-eng.gif

    Another:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2860759.stm
    _38972561_du_missile4_416inf.gif

    And finally a place mentioning how illiegal DU is:http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16442
    They quote the Geneva Convention:
    Geneva Convention Rules (to which US and UK are signees)

    - The limitation of unnecessary human suffering [Art.35.2]
    - The limitation of damage to the environment [Art. 35.3 and 55.1]
    - It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering [Art. 35.3]
    - It is prohibited to employ methods or means of warfare which are intended, or may be expected, to cause widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment. [Art. 35.2]
    - In order to ensure respect for and protection of the civilian population and civilian objects, the Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives. [Art. 48]
    - Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:
    (a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective;
    (b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
    (c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. [Art.51.4]
    - Care shall be taken in warfare to protect the natural environment against widespread, long-term and severe damage. This protection includes a prohibition of the use of methods or means of warfare which are intended or may be expected to cause such damage to the natural environment and thereby to prejudice the health or survival of the population. [Art. 55.1]




    Is there a breach of law going on here?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    shedweller wrote: »
    One of the more interesting properties of DU is that when it strikes its target, instead of mushrooming and spreading the load, it melts into a sharp point.

    I don't think you mean what you said here. Especially not since the image you show is doing exactly that - mushrooming.
    Andrews-8-fig7-eng.gif
    In fact, they use the term mushrooming after the image

    "As seen in Figure 7b, the penetrator mushrooms within the target, with macroscopic plastic deformation followed by erosion. The initial strain is principally localized within the matrix, which rapidly work hardens to form the mushroom shape. A consequence of the mushrooming due to work hardening is that energy is expended radially to expand the penetration cavity."
    http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo4/no1/research-recherch-eng.asp

    As for (a) - that's interesting: adiabatic shear sharpening. The word adiabatic conjures up memories from Thermo of no heat being transferred into or out of the system. I guess this would be a fair assumption if the collision was short lived.
    stoneill wrote: »
    The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties. When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew, and possibly causing the vehicle to explode
    It appears that they are saying during the collision is an adiabatic process. Thus, there's no heat flow, so no melting. Correct?

    The collision occurs so fast there is little time for heat, which flows slowly, to flow. Thus, the collision may be assumed adiabatic.

    Interesting articles and feedback people - thanks for the links.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    FISMA wrote: »
    Interesting articles and feedback people - thanks for the links.
    You're welcome! Re; the a and b pics, i think they meant a was a DU round and b was a regular round.
    In any case, you get the point......:pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    One last bit about food.

    Lot's of food is radioactive, however, the activity is lower than background.

    Potatoes often have radioactive potassium. I bet the same is true of leafy greens as well.

    The problem with milk is that the activity is often from radioactive Iodine which which is highly problematic for the thyroid - ESPECIALLY in children.

    If I was a parent in California of a young child, I would be looking to the heartland for milk.

    I doubt the radiological effects [due to Japan] on dairy along the West Coast of the US are above background, but why take the risk when it comes to your kids?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6009
    The military is aware of DU’s harmful effects on the human genetic code. A 2001 study of DU’s effect on DNA done by Dr. Alexandra C. Miller for the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Md., indicates that DU’s chemical instability causes 1 million times more genetic damage than would be expected from its radiation effect alone, Moret wrote.
    Dr. Miller requested that questions be sent in writing and copied to a military spokesman. She did tell AFP that it should be noted that her studies showing that DU is “neoplastically transforming and genotoxic” are based on in vitro cellular research.
    Studies have shown that inhaled nano-particles are far more toxic than micro-sized particles of the same basic chemical composition. British toxicopathologist Vyvyan Howard has reported that the increased toxicity of the nano-particle is due to its size.
    For example, when mice were exposed to virus-size particles of Teflon (0.13 microns) in a University of Rochester study, there were no ill effects. But when mice were exposed to nano-particles of Teflon for 15 minutes, nearly all the mice died within 4 hours.
    “Exposure pathways for depleted uranium can be through the skin, by inhalation, and ingestion,” Moret wrote. “Nano-particles have high mobility and can easily enter the body. Inhalation of nano-particles of depleted uranium is the most hazardous exposure, because the particles pass through the lung-blood barrier directly into the blood.
    “When inhaled through the nose, nano-particles can cross the olfactory bulb directly into the brain through the blood brain barrier, where they migrate all through the brain,” she wrote. “Many Gulf era soldiers exposed to depleted uranium have been diagnosed with brain tumors, brain damage and impaired thought processes. Uranium can interfere with the mitochondria, which provide energy for the nerve processes, and transmittal of the nerve signal across synapses in the brain.
    “Damage to the mitochondria, which provide all energy to the cells and nerves, can cause chronic fatigue syndrome, Lou Gehrig’s disease, Parkinson’s disease and Hodgkin’s disease.”
    And despite all DU's harmful effects AND the fact that it's illegal, it is still being used. How is that allowed? How are some people allowed to break the law in spectacular style? Why the media silence on this subject? There aren't even many Boardsies talking about this! It's amazing!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    shedweller wrote: »
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6009


    And despite all DU's harmful effects AND the fact that it's illegal, it is still being used. How is that allowed? How are some people allowed to break the law in spectacular style? Why the media silence on this subject? There aren't even many Boardsies talking about this! It's amazing!
    An interesting question is how much damage it does to those who are left behind when the dust settles compared to the damage it does to the troops who are using it. While the troops are there, the stuff is actually being blasted into the environment and may be breathed or ingested in various ways. When the shooting stops, the people who live in the area return (assuming they ever left :eek:) and have to live with the stuff indefinitely, but perhaps it settles into the ground and doesn't get into the body as easily?

    It would be an absolute scandal if the damage done to the people who live on/near the field on conflict exceeded that done to the troops, and very hard to see how it can be justified (but then the US refuses to ban the use of landmines too, doesn't it?).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    It would be an absolute scandal if the damage done to the people who live on/near the field on conflict exceeded that done to the troops, and very hard to see how it can be justified (but then the US refuses to ban the use of landmines too, doesn't it?).
    I would guess that the number of locals (ie: local to where the DU is in the ground) is far higher than the number of soldiers that were using it at the time. The locals are going to be there for far longer too because they live there and farm there etc.
    So they will suffer a lot in the future, virtually forever i suppose. Ok, the soldiers that were there at the time may have some horrific injuries and their future children may well have disabilities.
    Could this be part of the Eugenics initiative i've come across here and elsewhere? If not then it's doing a good job! Not that we hear about it much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    FISMA wrote: »
    One last bit about food.

    Lot's of food is radioactive, however, the activity is lower than background.

    Potatoes often have radioactive potassium. I bet the same is true of leafy greens as well.

    The problem with milk is that the activity is often from radioactive Iodine which which is highly problematic for the thyroid - ESPECIALLY in children.

    If I was a parent in California of a young child, I would be looking to the heartland for milk.

    I doubt the radiological effects [due to Japan] on dairy along the West Coast of the US are above background, but why take the risk when it comes to your kids?

    Or, considering milk generally has a shelf life of a couple of weeks under normal supermarket conditions, while the radioactive iodine in question has a half life of 8 days, you could just ... drink milk close to the best before date and be pretty safe either way. No dramallama required.

    In relation to this thread in general, some of you need to get a grip. If you're worried about DU, I can only imagine how you'd be if someone sat you down and explained just how many radiological sources you're exposed to during your regular daily routine. Indeed, your own house may be fatally irridiating you right now with radon. I mean, if you had children you should really be camping out in the back garden. If you were a parent of a young child, you should really be sleeping in a tent in the back garden because it's just not worth taking the risk!!!!1!111 right? If they get various health related issues because they're subjected to this reactionary idiocy it's alright though, because they won't be dying from evil man-made radiation but some natural, wholesome, pneumonia.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Moriarty wrote: »
    Or, considering milk generally has a shelf life of a couple of weeks under normal supermarket conditions, while the radioactive iodine in question has a half life of 8 days, you could just ... drink milk close to the best before date and be pretty safe either way. No dramallama required.

    In relation to this thread in general, some of you need to get a grip. If you're worried about DU, I can only imagine how you'd be if someone sat you down and explained just how many radiological sources you're exposed to during your regular daily routine. Indeed, your own house may be fatally irridiating you right now with radon. I mean, if you had children you should really be camping out in the back garden. If you were a parent of a young child, you should really be sleeping in a tent in the back garden because it's just not worth taking the risk!!!!1!111 right? If they get various health related issues because they're subjected to this reactionary idiocy it's alright though, because they won't be dying from evil man-made radiation but some natural, wholesome, pneumonia.
    So there's nothing to worry about then? Is that what you're saying? Those clusters of disabled kids born in areas where DU was used mean nothing to you do they? Have you even read any of the links posted above?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Moriarty wrote: »
    In relation to this thread in general, some of you need to get a grip. If you're worried about DU, I can only imagine how you'd be if someone sat you down and explained just how many radiological sources you're exposed to during your regular daily routine.
    I think it was established pretty early on in the thread that the problem with DU is heavy metal poisoning, rather than the negligible levels of radiation. And the concern is expressed on behalf of the civilians who have to live in the areas where DU munitions have been used.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Not defending the use of Du, the side effects are horrific, but, a quote from this site:
    http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/IPesic/ResearchPaper.htm


    From the Kantian perspective (a philosophic perspective similar to the Golden Rule, “do unto others as they would do onto you”), the use of DU ammunition is somewhat difficult to analyze. The Kantian perspective is difficult to apply to military situations. From one perspective, you wouldn’t want the enemy to use powerful DU-armed weapons against your army, but that is sort of awkward. On the battlefield, soldiers most likely are aware that they will often be facing an enemy who is researching means of improving military weapons and vice versa. Hence there is some sort of indirect consideration and understanding that both sides are constantly enhancing their own weapons. Hence the use of DU is currently a military advancement that only a few countries have benefited from, but when you are on the battlefield in the near future, you still are aware that the enemy could also possess DU ammo and can use it against you. There is some sort of mutual acceptance on the rules of warfare in terms of technological advancement between both sides. Hence on a slight level and strictly concerning military combat, the Kantian perspective could somewhat promote the ethical use of DU weapons.

    The down side to this is that innocent civilians take a battering, even years after war is over.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    So when some Great Leader comes in and says he doesn't want such and such havinh nuclear power he also means he doesn't want them to have the ability to make DU weapons. In fairness, i would agree with that but it should apply to all parties. Not just a few who regard themselves as the "good guys"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    So it seems our great leaders have been thinking along the same lines as myself and a few others:
    http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/a/305.html
    The Private Members Bill entitled Prohibition of Depleted Uranium Weapons was submitted in the Seanad Éireann, the Irish parliament’s upper house by Green Senators Dan Boyle and Deirdre de Burca and Independent Fiona O'Malley. The bill is currently in its first stage and faces four more stages where it will face additional scrutiny and potential amendments. It is due to be debated in more depth early in 2010.
    246_a305.jpg
    Senator Dan Boyle
    In common with other DU legislation, the bill would make it illegal to test, develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, sell, deploy, retain or transfer, directly or indirectly, uranium ammunition, uranium armour-plate or other uranium weapons to anyone. The text would also make it illegal to acquire or dispose of the pre-products necessary for the manufacture of uranium weapons.

    Belgium has also made moves against DU:
    Belgian parliament votes unanimously to ban depleted uranium weapon investments

    On the 2nd of July, the Belgian Parliament unanimously approved a law forbidding the financing of the manufacture, use and possession of depleted uranium weapons. Belgium is now the first country to prevent the flow of money to producers of uranium weapons. The law complements the country’s ban on their manufacture, testing, use, sale and stockpiling which came into force on June 21st.
    http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/a/277.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    A short animation about DU:http://www.youtube.com/user/ICBUW


Advertisement