Finally, an enquiry into a politician [Ming]

thebigbiffo

Only thing is, it's for growing a plant. Ming should have simply robbed the taxpayer, that way he might have stayed off the radar of those crack detectives up at GHQ.

The President of the Garda Representative Association has said an investigation has been launched into claims that a newly elected TD is growing and using cannabis.

Earlier this month, the Star newspaper reported that Roscommon South Leitrim TD Luke 'Ming' Flanagan admitted he grew a small amount of cannabis for personal use.

An editorial in the Garda Review magazine now warns that the justice system will become a mockery unless action is taken against the Independent TD, who was not named directly.

President of the GRA Damien McCarthy said any admission of breaking the law by a member of parliament must be taken seriously.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-launch-inquiry-into-td-growing-cannabis-498183.html

prinz

No one should be above the law, corrupt greedy scumbags or cannabis growers. You don't correct an inefficient system by simply going from one hypocritical state to another.

Korvanica

honestly why cant they investigate something worthwhile?

SEPT 23 1989

Strange country that we live in

AnonoBoy

I'm pretty sure Ming will be aware that they might search his house and so will get any evidence out of there.

The Gardai will go there, look around and leave. I'm sure they've got more important things to be doing.

mikemac

He's not above the law. If I was caught growing I'd expect consequences, same for this TD.

You don't ignore what he has done just because bigger criminals in the Dáil have gotten away

Misty Chaos

So, your telling me its alright for some politicians to rip off the country, rob us blind and then leave us to sink after sucking us dry and get away with it but by god if they grow and smoke a recreational drug that really doesn't do any harm it merits a full invesitgation which could lead to them being thrown into prision!!??

Christ, you have all your priorties wrong! :mad:

listermint

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Finally, an enquiry in a politician
.

what did they find? was it keyhole or just straight slash and open ??

liah

Better idea: just legalize marijuana and be done with it already ffs.

Put him in jail and pay 20k/year or however much it is for to keep him there, or let him pay tax on his weed so the government and the rest of us profit. Decisions, decisions...

Even Britain's prominent figures are saying the war on drugs is failing.

And why the hell are people calling out for his arrest to "uphold the law" when not a single person in your former government has felt retribution for their actions in any way, shape, or form, despite doing some quite illegal stuff? What about "upholding the law?" Or does that only apply to people who don't monumentally fck up the country?

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

No one should be above the law, corrupt greedy scumbags or cannabis growers. You don't correct an inefficient system by simply going from one hypocritical state to another.

"If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson


"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves, and, under a just God cannot long retain it." - Abraham Lincoln

and my favourite and the most relevant to your point:

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws." - Martin Luther King Jr

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws." - Martin Luther King Jr

I think Martin Luther King had bigger things on his mind than cannabis growing. Luke is free to go about trying to get the law changed but he is not above the law, nor should he be. The same would apply to any other TD openly admitting to breaking other laws.

thebigbiffo

listermint wrote: »

what did they find? was it keyhole or just straight slash and open ??

typo in thread title is :(

Riamfada

where does ming buy his drugs and where does the money go? Is TD money going straight to gangland criminals to support his habit.

but sure hash is deadly right?

admiralofthefleet

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Ming will be aware that they might search his house and so will get any evidence out of there.

The Gardai will go there, look around and leave. I'm sure they've got more important things to be doing.

they could raid the gaf while he is in leinster house

Shulgin

prinz wrote: »

I think Martin Luther King had bigger things on his mind than cannabis growing. Luke is free to go about trying to get the law changed but he is not above the law, nor should he be. The same would apply to any other TD openly admitting to breaking other laws.

Calls to change this unjust law have been ignored for years. Disobeying it is the last option it seems. Good luck to Ming and I hope every cannabis user in the land will stand behind him.

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

I think Martin Luther King had bigger things on his mind than cannabis growing.

ah come on now prinz - you know full well the spirit of the quote applies to any law which is unjust including this one.

plenty of people would have thought segregation just - as you so obviously believe cannabis prohibition to be - but it doesn't make you correct or this quote any less relevant for people who are being prosecuted for their own personal choices.

mikemac

thebigbiffo wrote: »

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws." - Martin Luther King Jr

Biggest hypocrite around at the time, wouldn't take him seriously

A clergyman preaching his message and all the time cheating on his wife, he had more affairs then Tiger Woods

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

ah come on now prinz - you know full well the spirit of the quote applies to any law which is unjust including this one.

So if I decide that drink driving laws are unjust should I be exempt from prosecution?

thebigbiffo

Riamfada wrote: »

where does ming buy his drugs and where does the money go? Is TD money going straight to gangland criminals to support his habit.

but sure hash is deadly right?

"you just cant take the effect and make it the cause"

that one was the white stripes:cool:

yrwhu8jxtni06a

Lets see,the last crowd said-

The boom will last forever

Anyone who talked it down should go commit suicide

We should have a soft landing when it ends



now i wonder where they on something during that?

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

So if I decide that drink driving laws are unjust should I be exempt from prosecution?

it's proven that drink driving may lead to death not just the death of the drinker/driver but also innocent bystanders.

a fairly ridiculous comparison typical of this argument. i'm sure you'll start down the mental health road next, sure then we'll have some real fun pulling weighted studies from dodgy sources trying to outdo each other. sorry, no thanks.

i just dont get why people cant respect the right of the individiual to put what they like in their bodies as long as it doesn't harm them or someone else. it's madness.

starbelgrade

Riamfada wrote: »

where does ming buy his drugs and where does the money go? Is TD money going straight to gangland criminals to support his habit.

Did you even read the article?

It said that he's growing his own. You may agree or disagree with this practice, but in Ireland, growing your own is the only real way to ensure that criminal gangs are not involved in or financed by a recreational use of cannabis.

Either way, the situation is ridiculous. Criminalising the growing of a plant is fucking retarded. Especially a plant that has a huge amount of benefits and uses beyond that of rolling into doobies.

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

it's proven that drink driving may lead to death not just the death of the drinker/driver but also innocent bystanders..

Is that the criteria to decide if a law is unjust or not? Is it unjust that there is a law against brown envelopes in exchange for favourable planning decisions?

Brendan Flowers

I remember Ming being interviewed on the radio a few years back .He was talking about how he was growing cannabis in the bog. The DJ seemed shocked and asked him was he not worried the Gardai would find it. His response was simple "I'd like to see them prove that its my cannabis"

Im sure Ming is careful about it. I doubt he has a room in the house filled with plants.

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i just dont get why people cant respect the right of the individiual to put what they like in their bodies as long as it doesn't harm them or someone else. it's madness.

I'm afraid you are missing the point spectacularly in an effort to bring this down to a pro- or anti-cannabis divide. I don't care what Luke Flanagan thinks of the law, whether he sees it as unjust or not. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about changing it. The right way is to campaign to have the law changed in line with our political and judicial system and then he can freely go plant and do whatever he wants with it. The wrong way is to openly flaunt the laws at they stand. We don't accept it for a range of other crimes, why should we accept it from him or anyone else?

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

Is that the criteria to decide if a law is unjust or not? Is it unjust that there is a law against brown envelopes in exchange for favourable planning decisions?

jesus you are stretching it now. sure loitering is unjust too...and littering...i'm a real f'uckin anarchist is me.

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

jesus you are stretching it now. sure loitering is unjust too...and littering...i'm a real f'uckin anarchist is me.

Either you can back up your position or you can't. Seemingly you can't.

Mahatma coat

Campaigning and petitioning the old guard of this nation have gotten us nowhere, Time to stand up and be counted, if they do bring this to any form of prosecution I will join the protest and I will bring some of my Pot along

Shulgin

prinz wrote: »

I'm afraid you are missing the point spectacularly in an effort to bring this down to a pro- or anti-cannabis divide. I don't care what Luke Flanagan thinks of the law, whether he sees it as unjust or not. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about changing it. The right way is to campaign to have the law changed and then he can freely go plant and do whatever he wants. The wrong way is to openly flaunt the laws at they stand. We don't accept it for a range of other crimes, why should we accept it from him?

You seem to be missing the point.

The problem is you need big financial backing to challenge these laws effectively the 'official' way, lobbyists, corporations etc. The efforts so far have been completely ignored by politicians, and seems to be the way it would have been for the forseeable future.

Ignoring and disobeying this unjust law is the most effective approach now.

prinz

Shulgin wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point.
The problem is you need big financial backing to challenge these laws effectively the 'official' way, lobbyists, corporations etc. The efforts so far have been completely ignored by politicians, and seems to be the way it would have been for the forseeable future..

Luke is a politician. Perhaps he should start collecting for the cause?

Shulgin wrote: »

Ignoring and disobeying this unjust law is the most effective approach now.

Yes, yes unjust. Now we can all decide whatever laws we like, and which ones we'll ignore as unjust.

My name is URL

It may be a stupid law, but it's a law that he has admitted to breaking. I don't see what choice the Gardai have other than to investigate it.. they cannot selectively apply the law only when it suits them.

At least all of this will help to shine a light on the ridiculous legislation and perhaps go towards changing opinions on the matter.

The problem is there are bigger much bigger 'criminals' than Ming. And I use criminals lightly in relation to him.

The cannabis is a small part of him that has been thrown into the public forum because it's controversial and because the authorities feel a moral responsibility to take action because he has bravely, maybe naively, admitted to a crime.

When in fact, they should be chasing real criminals in this country. And here, I do not use it lightly. Ming is Ming...he grows himself it for himself.

They need to go after the men selling drugs etc

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

I'm afraid you are missing the point spectacularly in an effort to bring this down to a pro- or anti-cannabis divide. I don't care what Luke Flanagan thinks of the law, whether he sees it as unjust or not. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about changing it. The right way is to campaign to have the law changed in line with our political and judicial system and then he can freely go plant and do whatever he wants with it. The wrong way is to openly flaunt the laws at they stand. We don't accept it for a range of other crimes, why should we accept it from him or anyone else?

at this stage i think it's more than clear that the government have no interest in changing an unjust law - that's the point here. Ming has been campaigning on this for 2 decades and got nowhere. studies, trials and stats the world over point to the failure of cannabis prohibtion yet not one change has been made to the law. therefore, i'll go back to the MLK quote. it is, imo, at the stage where flaunting the law is the only option left - as per david norris and the laws against homosexuality; openly flaunt it and let the public and their representatives see the ridiculousness and unfairness of it.

Twigster

thebigbiffo wrote: »

it's proven that drink driving may lead to death not just the death of the drinker/driver but also innocent bystanders.

a fairly ridiculous comparison typical of this argument. i'm sure you'll start down the mental health road next, sure then we'll have some real fun pulling weighted studies from dodgy sources trying to outdo each other. sorry, no thanks.

i just dont get why people cant respect the right of the individiual to put what they like in their bodies as long as it doesn't harm them or someone else. it's madness.

What's ridiculous is you saying that because cannabis is less harmful than alcohol it's ok to ignore the law. What about any alleged illegal activities in the banks, should they get away with them because they don't lead to any direct health issues? The law is the law and if it's broken you should be held to account.

prinz

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem is there are bigger much bigger 'criminals' than Ming.

..and sure they can ignore the shoplifting too, because there are murderers.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

at this stage i think it's more than clear that the government have no interest in changing an unjust law - that's the point here. Ming has been campaigning on this for 2 decades and got nowhere..

How many of those 20 years has he spent in the Dáil? You know how long it took men like Wilberforce to change the laws regarding slavery in the UK?

prinz

liah wrote: »

And why the hell are people calling out for his arrest to "uphold the law" when not a single person in your former government has felt retribution for their actions in any way, shape, or form, despite doing some quite illegal stuff? What about "upholding the law?" Or does that only apply to people who don't monumentally fck up the country?

How many of them have come out and openly and publicly admitted breaking any laws? Do you have evidence of laws being broken? If some people get away with it does that mean we should let everyone away with things? Why can't we argue that those people should be invesitgated too, it's not either/or here. Just because I think Luke shouldn't be above the law, doesn't mean I think it's ok that others are. Everyone should answer for criminal activity.

Sanjuro

Riamfada wrote: »

where does ming buy his drugs and where does the money go? Is TD money going straight to gangland criminals to support his habit.

but sure hash is deadly right?

What? He grows his own cannabis. Unless he's buying seeds on the black market (and strangely enough, you can legally buy the seeds, but cannot grow the plants) how is his money going to gangland criminals?

As others have said, just legalise the stuff and be done with it. The 'war on drugs' is a massive failure and a waste of time, money and effort.

thebigbiffo

Twigster wrote: »

What's ridiculous is you saying that because cannabis is less harmful than alcohol it's ok to ignore the law. What about any alleged illegal activities in the banks, should they get away with them because they don't lead to any direct health issues? The law is the law and if it's broken you should be held to account.

this is a ridiculous point and we covered it much earlier. there is a victim to every crime in some way. there is NO victim in growing your own and consuming it yourself in the privacy of your own home. NONE. to say otherwise is to be blind.

digme

thebigbiffo wrote: »

and my favourite and the most relevant to your point:

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws." - Martin Luther King Jr

Ya quote the biggest PLAGIARIST in history lol....

Shulgin

prinz wrote: »

..and sure they can ignore the shoplifting too, because there are murderers.

There is another citizen affected by that crime. Growing and consuming your own cannabis plant is hardly comparable.

Offy

thebigbiffo wrote: »

"If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson


"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves, and, under a just God cannot long retain it." - Abraham Lincoln

and my favourite and the most relevant to your point:

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws." - Martin Luther King Jr

+1 and the best post Ive seen in an age.

prinz

Shulgin wrote: »

There is a third party affected by that crime. Growing and consuming your own cannabis plant is hardly like for like.

I wasn't comparing like for like, more the ridiculous hypocrisy of letting some people break the law because there are more serious crimes being committed.

thebigbiffo

digme wrote: »

Ya quote the biggest PLAGIARIST in history lol....

if you refer to the fact that george washington may have originally said something similar i'm with you...otherwise i haven't a clue what you're on about.

Shulgin

prinz wrote: »

I wasn't comparing like for like, more the ridiculous hypocrisy of letting some people break the law because there are more serious crimes being committed.

But you did make the ridiculous comparison, making your argument very flakey. same old rhetoric

prinz

Shulgin wrote: »

But you did make the ridiculous comparison, making your argument very flakey. same old rhetoric

No, I wasn't comparing smoking cannabis and shoplifting. Either catch up on the point I was making or continue down your own cul de sac of an argument. It's irrelevant whether it is cannabis or shoplifting or littering or parking on a double yellow line or **** on an airplane. We don't decide what laws to apply and what laws not to apply on the basis that there are bigger fish to fry. Understand now?

Gunmonkey

prinz wrote: »

Yes, yes unjust. Now we can all decide whatever laws we like, and which ones we'll ignore as unjust.

Your right, we cant just up and decide any law is "unjust" and ignore it, its stupid to think that way. I would look for the reason a law was introduced and work out if it was justified or not from there. Just looking at the laws brought up in here so far:

Drink Driving - introduced to stop road deaths, both of the driver and other people on the road.

The good old Brown Envelope switcheroo - to tackle corruption and allow a more open system for land development.

Littering - to prevent build up of trash and increased levels of vermin grouping in areas, also for an asthetic reason.

Segregation based on skin colour - no real reason for this other than "social pressures", hence it was unjustified.

Cannabis being illegal in ireland - care to fill this one in, and not why it should stay illegal (health reasons, etc) but why it was made illegal here decades ago.




Also love the Gardaí response;

"Some T.D. growing cannabis for personnal, recreational use in his own home.....GO GARDAÍ INVESTIGATION SUPER MEGA TASK FORCE GO!!!!"

"Criminal gangs bringing in €600m worth a year to sell on the streets.....sorry, what were we talking about again?"

Pompey Magnus

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The Gardai will go there, look around and leave. I'm sure they've got more important things to be doing.

The thing is that now that the Gardai have made an issue out of this they are going to look like incompetent buffoons if they don't bring about a prosecution, imagine how it would look if a guy openly admits time and again to growing cannabis yet the Gardai can't even manage to pin anything on someone like him after they decide to pursue him, they would be a laughing stock.

Offy

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

The thing is that now that the Gardai have made an issue out of this they are going to look like incompetent buffoons if they don't bring about a prosecution, imagine how it would look if a guy openly admits time and again to growing cannabis yet the Gardai can't even manage to pin anything on someone like him after they decide to pursue him, they would be a laughing stock.

They already are a laughing stock.

prinz

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Cannabis being illegal in ireland - care to fill this one in, and not why it should stay illegal (health reasons, etc) but why it was made illegal here decades ago.

There are plenty of reasons as to why it should at the very least be highly controlled and restricted then again we are veering into an argument that I haven't actually made, so again fail to see the relevance? Have I said it should stay illegal? Nope, don't believe I have. I haven't made any pronouncements on what the law should be, merely pointing out what the law is and how best to go about changing it.

prinz

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

The thing is that now that the Gardai have made an issue out of this they are going to look like incompetent buffoons if they don't bring about a prosecution, imagine how it would look if a guy openly admits time and again to growing cannabis yet the Gardai can't even manage to pin anything on someone like him after they decide to pursue him, they would be a laughing stock.

No they wouldn't. I could go out onto O'Connell Street tomorrow and tell people I have x number of missing women buried in my back garden. Of course they should look into it. Doesn't mean a prosecution is guaranteed. People can say what they like. You need more than that to prosecute as Ming well knows.

Twigster

thebigbiffo wrote: »

this is a ridiculous point and we covered it much earlier. there is a victim to every crime in some way. there is NO victim in growing your own and consuming it yourself in the privacy of your own home. NONE. to say otherwise is to be blind.

So is drink driving ok if nobody is injured and there's no victim? What about speeding?