Ireland after the Six Nations - are we set fair for the RWC?

smurphy29

A strange old series. Ireland finished third, played like drains for much of the series, but the way we finished means it does feel like we're going to the World Cup with some momentum behind us. It was by a distance the most complete performance from any team in the series, but let's not lose sight of the two defeats and four fairly poor performances before it. Were those necessary steps back in order to go forward, or was the auld enemy coming to town enough to get a one-off performance out of us?

It seems we have now got our World Cup XV in place (being that which started v England), but the feeling persists that we only stumbled across this by chance. Mike Ross was ignored in the autumn, and had Buckley been fit he may never have even got on. All our best rugby coincided with Reddan being on the pitch, and yet had O'Leary not got a freakish eye injury, he could well have been starting against England. Who will play at 9 in the World Cup? All logic points to Reddan, but it's impossible to know. Earls was masterful at full-back, but how many minutes will he get there between now and the rest of the season?

trackguy

smurphy29 wrote: »

A strange old series. Ireland finished third, played like drains for much of the series, but the way we finished means it does feel like we're going to the World Cup with some momentum behind us. It was by a distance the most complete performance from any team in the series, but let's not lose sight of the two defeats and four fairly poor performances before it. Were those necessary steps back in order to go forward, or was the auld enemy coming to town enough to get a one-off performance out of us?

It seems we have now got our World Cup XV in place (being that which started v England), but the feeling persists that we only stumbled across this by chance. Mike Ross was ignored in the autumn, and had Buckley been fit he may never have even got on. All our best rugby coincided with Reddan being on the pitch, and yet had O'Leary not got a freakish eye injury, he could well have been starting against England. Who will play at 9 in the World Cup? All logic points to Reddan, but it's impossible to know. Earls was masterful at full-back, but how many minutes will he get there between now and the rest of the season?

Momentum is huge and the Irish team will be so much better placed simply from having this match last in the 6N. They will rationalise it as spending the whole tournament trying to reach a point and now they've reached it. They'll be raring to go come WC time.

Of course, this might be ignoring a couple of things. We are still short of options in a few positions (tighthead, centre) and I've been disappointed with the defensive lineout in particular.

I don't think Trimble would be in the team if Kearney and Fitz are fit. At the moment he should be but going on the last 2 years selection, Kearney and Fitz are better placed. They will probably have more opportunity to impress in the coming months in a very good Leinster team.

I suppose it will be interesting to see where the injured or out-of-form players fit in? Kearney, Fitz, G Murphy, Ferris, Hayes, Flannery, TOL? Will all of those players make the WC squad if available?

Thanos

Well, well, it seems that our good points haul against England (plus the French loss to Italy last week) has pushed Ireland into fourth in the IRB rankings. :eek:

Who saw that coming.......................


http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2011/0321/ireland_worldranking.html

buck65

NZ, Aus, SA, France are better than us. On their day Wales and England can beat us so realistically we haven't a hope of winning the World Cup but from what people are saying if we make the semis it will be a good tournament.
We are well capable of that but what good is that?
Do Munster and Leinster start a HCup campaign looking to make the semi finals? As good as we were on Saturday we are still not good enough by a long shot to beat any of the Southern hem teams down there.

peterako

Does the Manager need some coaching on how to select and use the Bench before the RWC......

...or are we just going to have fitter and more versatile players than everyone else :rolleyes:

trackguy

buck65 wrote: »

NZ, Aus, SA, France are better than us. On their day Wales and England can beat us so realistically we haven't a hope of winning the World Cup but from what people are saying if we make the semis it will be a good tournament.
We are well capable of that but what good is that?
Do Munster and Leinster start a HCup campaign looking to make the semi finals? As good as we were on Saturday we are still not good enough by a long shot to beat any of the Southern hem teams down there.

You're saying there are 4 better teams than us. There are 4 teams in the semi finals. Yet, it would be a bad result if we get to the semi finals?

Not everyone can win the thing and you have to start from somewhere and have a realistic aim when going there.

A semi final place would stand to the Ireland team in the future.

GerM

We finished the 2007 6N absolutely on fire with the best rugby I've ever seen an Irish side play. Come the WC we had played a few warm up games and looked absolutely toothless (almost factual in BOD's case after the Battle of Bayonne). There's a lot of time to pass between now and the start of the WC including 4 matches we could very well lose. Talk of momentum is very much premature especially on the back of one match. It's like the week before when we turned in one of the most disjointed performances I've seen against an average Welsh side didn't happen. I would be very wary of how this WC will go. We don't have an easy group. Italy will get us in a neutral ground and we are the game they will target. From now until October we are the team they will be analysing and monitoring. I would say Irish players won't blink on a pitch between now and then without Mallet taking note.

andrewdcs

Hells no, but the glow of one win will sustain me through the HC. We learned v little via subs /squad / still same questions over bench picks. People returning from injury, hopefully, players improving back with their clubs and no injuries we can go into september series feeling confident we can banish demons if we find them, but as Kidney said, theres a lot to do <not least in his selections>


as pointed out below, injuries made most of the calls. The fitz call was a brave and great one. Feel for Luke but he'ss be in the mix, has HC glory I just hope to god he doesnt get his heart set on FB like some lovesick teen. If earls can nail that down in Munster he should shoe in. Then Kearney becomes obv. bench material, Luke will have to tooth and nail it over wing and centrer cover, but where are all these guys going to get the showtime?

At scrum half, if Reddan keeps that form ("wasps form" as its called) hes sitting pretty, but TOL didnt become useless overnight, it took ages, and he'll be back. we need more cover.

Ending the P Wallace obsession... hmm, talented but where? An extra bit of grunt in the scrum for when Healy and Ross are tiring... World cups are about benches at the pointy end, I think we could get thete as a semi final tip and then who knows, but we're probably in the same space and England on that.

Ulstermello

its defo too early to look to WC, but couldn't have had a better performance to end the 6N so its a good omen - hopefully ferris and Kearney will be fit for WC and they would slot straight into my 15 (if they havent lost form on their return).

thebaz

if we can avoid NZ at all costs, perform to our max., I think we should not fear anyone - the all Blacks at home, following so many WC disasters , will be the obstacle - but what I like about this Irish team, they have that Roy Keane mentality -lets not just go there to participate - lets go there to win - and on that they will be judged

LeeroyJones

I'm cautiously confident with regards our prospects.
Are we favourites? No, but, more importantly, does that matter? No!
Can we progress from our group? Yes. If we get out of our group we (probably) play either SA or Wales - both of which we can beat and progress to the semis. I'm a huge believer in every team who reaches a semi-final in any sport has a realistic shot at the big prize.

I've been reading a lot about the England match as if it just came out of nowhere, which is incorrect. The success of the England match was a product of weeks of practice and frustration in trying to implement gameplan which ultimately suits our squad of players, but like anything it takes time and effort.
When we think of the term 'Leinster' we think of a team playing some lovely, attractive and effective rugby. But if we cast our minds back to September & early October, Leinster were one of the most frustrating teams to watch. It wasn't until the Racing Metro match that really got Leinster going and since then have gone from strength to strength thriving on a gameplan which they are well accustomed to.
The first few 6 Nations matches remind me a lot of Leinster in September. I believe, and only time will tell one way or the other, that the England match will be looked back at by Irish supporters in the same way Leinster supporters look back at the Racing Metro match.

The Ireland coaching staff have got a lot of criticism and I suppose it comes down to what priorities each individual fan has in order to say whether or not the criticism is justified.
If you were a fan who just wanted the 6 Nations crown, I can understand your frustration. However, if you want Ireland to have a go in NZ this autumn and, in a way, sacrifice the 6 Nations as a result, well that's what the coaching staff did.
We have better players than England do, so it is conceivable that Kidney could have played similar stuff to them during the 5 fixtures and we could well have lifted the trophy on Saturday, Grand Slam or not - but we would have been sitting ducks for the Southern Hemisphere teams. England's gameplan is effective, and pretty much unstoppable, to teams that are made up of a similar or worse standard as they can force their opposition to adapt to their gameplan or get pummeled. When the standard is raised they become unstuck. The standard was raised when they came to Dublin and they were caught out.
What I'm getting at is that if we played that sort of gameplan this 6 Nations we probably would have been able to force our opposition to adapt to our gameplan or pummel them, but the second we play a higher standard, ala NZ, Aus, SA, we would become unstuck.

There are 2 significant issues which could realistically hamper our progress which I would be concerned about. Those are;
(a) Our lack of options at both sides of the scrum. We need a slice of luck which would enable Healy and Ross to maintain form and fitness throughout the WC campaign. Both Court and Buckley have shown glimpses of being of the right standard but not consistently, which is a worry - hopefully they can prove me wrong.

&

(b) The use of our bench. On the 50 minute mark (give or take) of every match this 6 Nations we were leading, only to give away the lead on 2 out of 5 occasions and lose the last half hour in every fixture this 6 Nations and concede all our tries against in the last 30 mins.
This indicates 1 of 2 things. Either our players aren't able to adapt when the opposition alter their gameplan for the final 30 mins, which I don't believe given the experience/success running through our XV, or, more likely IMO, our bench is not being used as an advantage which it should be, rather a gross disadvantage!

cabrwab

Great post leeroyjones.

I have to agree with it.

I only wish we had a few more games to really continue trying get this game right.

I wanted 6nations glory to come our way again only because it was directly in front of us.

Thinking back I'm happy there was mistakes made imagine if we won the grand slam with little learned.
Instead we lost matches nearly lost to Italy, therefore giving Italy momentum to beat France and give Wales a horrid time in Rome.
We need to learn most from that game.

Im worried about the line out costing us tries against Wales and England.
Ok the Welsh one was a quick throw but where was the defence.

Best of all we saw sexton and o gara growing as team mates teaching each other how to play.
Ireland play o gara's style so to see sexton taking up some of his qualities on sat was good and together winning back the crowd.

I hope the mistakes can be rectified and they continue playing as a team from saturday.

Hey who knows!

Chucky the tree

Zero chance in the world cup. All you have to do is look at our performances away from Dublin too see this. When we travel to France and the Southern Hemisphere we get mashed pretty easily. We can step up our game agains the English alright, but again that the chip on the shoulder showing through. Even looking at this 6 nations we played well at home to france but we looked very poor in all 3 away games, for some reason this team doesn't travel very well. I'd be shocked if we even got past the quarters in the WC since it's being played in the SH, we'll get turned over by Austrailia and SA.

Teferi

cabrwab wrote: »

Im worried about the line out costing us tries against Wales and England.

Honestly not too worried about either of these. Wales scored a try that wasn't. No excuse really as Ireland should have easily beaten them anyway. The try for England was just a momentary lapse in concentration because we were playing awesome rugby, again not something to worry about too much.

trackguy

Teferi wrote: »

Honestly not too worried about either of these. Wales scored a try that wasn't. No excuse really as Ireland should have easily beaten them anyway. The try for England was just a momentary lapse in concentration because we were playing awesome rugby, again not something to worry about too much.

Those incidents wouldn't worry me either. However, I am worried about the lineout. Gone are the days where we are wrecking the opposition's lineout.

POC and DOC have been great around the park in the last few games but they haven't made much of an impact on oppositions' lineouts in a long time.

This used to be a strength - what's gone wrong?

heybaby

This 6 nations has thrown up more questions than answers for me. One thing is certain, this team's problems start in their heads. For what ever reason this team have not been in the right place psychologically ever since the grand slam, this suspect mindset lies squarely at the feet of kidney etc For me the management have failed to focus the minds of the players and the result has been a string of abject error strewn performances lacking in intensity, hunger, creativity and basic skills.

Certainly we have some gifted players but until the england game we played as individuals and the england result doesnt change that. If you cant get up for an england game then you dont have a pulse. The performance against england shows us exactly what ireland have failed to do over the last 18 months. However, we are still knocking on and giving needless penalties away, something that wasnt an issue at all during our winning grandslam campaign.

My fear is that by the time the pre world cup games arrive the momentum created by this performance will be lost and we will revert to type,by kicking ball 50 plus times like we did against against wales, by giving away so many penalties like we did against france, and being guilty of handling errors, i hope i am wrong but we are 2 years on from a slam and the england game aside we have regressed as a team,and ended up 4th out of 6 in probably the poorest 6 nations ever.

Yes in one game we saw flashes of brilliance but dont let your hearts rule your heads. Ireland have it within them to play great rugby but to do so they need to defeat themselves first.

trackguy

heybaby wrote: »

This 6 nations has thrown up more questions than answers for me. One thing is certain, this team's problems start in their heads. For what ever reason this team have not been in the right place psychologically ever since the grand slam, this suspect mindset lies squarely at the feet of kidney etc For me the management have failed to focus the minds of the players and the result has been a string of abject error strewn performances lacking in intensity, hunger, creativity and basic skills.

Certainly we have some gifted players but until the england game we played as individuals and the england result doesnt change that. If you cant get up for an england game then you dont have a pulse. The performance against england shows us exactly what ireland have failed to do over the last 18 months. However, we are still knocking on and giving needless penalties away, something that wasnt an issue at all during our winning grandslam campaign.

My fear is that by the time the pre world cup games arrive the momentum created by this performance will be lost and we will revert to type,by kicking ball 50 plus times like we did against against wales, by giving away so many penalties like we did against france, and being guilty of handling errors, i hope i am wrong but we are 2 years on from a slam and the england game aside we have regressed as a team,and ended up 4th out of 6 in probably the poorest 6 nations ever.

Yes in one game we saw flashes of brilliance but dont let your hearts rule your heads. Ireland have it within them to play great rugby but to do so they need to defeat themselves first.

There's no point in going back to the 2009 slam. If Ireland tried to play now like they did then they wouldn't get anywhere. The reason they made less mistakes then was because they passed the ball the fewest times of any of the teams that year. The rules/ laws in 2009 aided SA to win the Tri-Nations and Ireland led by ROG to win the 6N.

Ireland have been trying to build a new style and it has been painful to watch at times. The England match, regardless of the extra motivation to beat the Auld Enemy, is a positive sign and the players will gain great confidence from it.

If, as you say, the problems are in the players heads, does the confidence from the England match not make a huge difference?

The coaching team needs to make sure they settle on the right 22 to implement their plan. They also need to use the England game as a blueprint. Focus on the intensity and straight-forward approach used in that game. An example - TOL would not be right to play such a high tempo game.

The 4 warm up games are important. We need to balance maintaining confidence, building the squad and perfecting the tactics.

Cpt_Blackbeard

trackguy wrote: »

Those incidents wouldn't worry me either. However, I am worried about the lineout. Gone are the days where we are wrecking the opposition's lineout.

POC and DOC have been great around the park in the last few games but they haven't made much of an impact on oppositions' lineouts in a long time.

This used to be a strength - what's gone wrong?

My guess is that we are badly missing Hayes or even Buckley at lineout time.

trackguy

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

My guess is that we are badly missing Hayes or even Buckley at lineout time.

It does seem to be the case that POC isn't getting up to challenge for the ball as often as he used to - he and Hayes do have a great understanding with the one-man lift.

That said, Leo Cullen should be given more gametime. Say, for example, Sexton starts and ROG comes on after 60 minutes or so. Would it not make a lot of sense to bring on Leo Cullen at the same time to bolster the lineout (assuming ROG kicks the ball to touch ala Saturday)? Cullen has been the most destructive lineout forward for Ireland over the last few years when he has played.

Cpt_Blackbeard

trackguy wrote: »

It does seem to be the case that POC isn't getting up to challenge for the ball as often as he used to - he and Hayes do have a great understanding with the one-man lift.

That said, Leo Cullen should be given more gametime. Say, for example, Sexton starts and ROG comes on after 60 minutes or so. Would it not make a lot of sense to bring on Leo Cullen at the same time to bolster the lineout (assuming ROG kicks the ball to touch ala Saturday)? Cullen has been the most destructive lineout forward for Ireland over the last few years when he has played.

If the lifters aren't able to get the player up quick enough Cullen should have no big impact. In his game v France - that is always thrown about when posters call for Cullen to start - he had Hayes lifting him.

trackguy

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If the lifters aren't able to get the player up quick enough Cullen should have no big impact. In his game v France - that is always thrown about when posters call for Cullen to start - he had Hayes lifting him.

I doubt it is solely down to Hayes. We have been unable to challenge opposition ball anywhere near as well as say Scotland.

Are we not reading the opposition as well as them? One great lifter should not harm our ability to challenge opposition ball. Cullen and POC are our best lineout forwards, why not give BOTH of them plenty of gametime, particularly if we are going to close out games by kicking to the corners?

TheRevolution

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

My guess is that we are badly missing Hayes or even Buckley at lineout time.

I think its more down to POC not being back to his best at the lineout.

Munster are similarly struggling at lineout time with Hayes and Buckley so that theory doesn't make sense at all.

TheRevolution

I think going into this world cup Kidney is in a very similar position to EOS in that his main problems are his selections. Its notable that our top performers this 6N, O'Brien and Ross, might not have even been playing had it not been for injury and we may never have seen the best 9-10 combo all tournament had O'Leary not suffered an injury.

The England game may show Kidney was unlucky all tournament or it may show that Kidney got lucky in some injuries. That remains to be seen.

Lets not forget that EOS went into the world cup on the back of not 1 but 5 excellent performances in the 6N and look how that went.

trackguy

TheRevolution wrote: »

I think going into this world cup Kidney is in a very similar position to EOS in that his main problems are his selections. Its notable that our top performers this 6N, O'Brien and Ross, might not have even been playing had it not been for injury and we may never have seen the best 9-10 combo all tournament had O'Leary not suffered an injury.

The England game may show Kidney was unlucky all tournament or it may show that Kidney got lucky in some injuries. That remains to be seen.

Lets not forget that EOS went into the world cup on the back of not 1 but 5 excellent performances in the 6N and look how that went.

Ross and SOB names are set in stone for the squad now so I wouldn't worry about that.

Reddan has had a good tournament for me - Kidney will know this and can't possibly believe that TOL is best suited to playing the type of game Ireland played on Saturday.

I firmly believe that Ireland are better placed for this WC than they were for 2007.

LeeroyJones

TheRevolution wrote: »

I think going into this world cup Kidney is in a very similar position to EOS in that his main problems are his selections. Its notable that our top performers this 6N, O'Brien and Ross, might not have even been playing had it not been for injury and we may never have seen the best 9-10 combo all tournament had O'Leary not suffered an injury.

The England game may show Kidney was unlucky all tournament or it may show that Kidney got lucky in some injuries. That remains to be seen.

Lets not forget that EOS went into the world cup on the back of not 1 but 5 excellent performances in the 6N and look how that went.

What made WC07 the disaster that it was was the fact we went to the World Cup 07 with the most predictable XV in the competition.

1.Horan
2.Fla/Best
3.Hayes
4.DOC
5.POC
6.Easterbuy
7.Wallace
8.Leamy
9.Stringer/Reddan
10.ROG
11.Hickie/Trimble
12.D'arcy
13.BOD
14.Horgan/Trimble
15.Murphy/Dempsey

In other words, it was a squad of players which had 19 or so who had hopes of starting, about 25 with a shot of making the matchday 22 and the rest knowing full well they were on a glorified holiday.
Whatever people may say about Kidney, he has got himself a pool of 30+ players who can hold onto aspirations of playing a meaningful role in this campaign.

In 07 we had a great XV but no plan B if some players fell off the pace - which is what happened and EOS & his team paid the price.

Fair enough, we might be able to list a probable XV, but if things begin to go south there are viable options throughout the side. Whether or not Kidney intended this or it was because of injuries is another argument

Kilo

TheRevolution wrote: »

I think its more down to POC not being back to his best at the lineout.

Munster are similarly struggling at lineout time with Hayes and Buckley so that theory doesn't make sense at all.

+1

O'Connell is an amazing reader of opposition lineouts, but I suspect his long lay off has left him somewhat rusty in this department. If you ever watch him during oppo lineouts he's focused intensely on the opposition line and not the thrower. He used to be almost clairvoyant in figuring out where the ball was going to the point where it was said some years ago that he'd got a copy of the opposition's lineout call sheet (SA comes to mind, but could be wrong).

With the number of games he still has to play before the RWC, I believe he'll be back on song in this department.

Podge_irl

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Whatever people may say about Kidney, he has got himself a pool of 30+ players who can hold onto aspirations of playing a meaningful role in this campaign.

He started 20 players this 6N, and 19 in the 07 one. Bringing in Trimble for Fitz was the only non-injury enforced change made all tournament.

Having a "settled" XV wasn't in and of itself the problem for EOS. It worked well during the 07 6N. The problem was that they were all playing like drain pipes.

bamboozle

for me one of my biggest gripes with EOS's stale world cup squad was that he brought a load of older players who were never going to get a look in and left the likes of Heaslip and Kearney behind.

post grand slam BOD and ROG went on record saying that the younger lads in the squad brought great energy to the grand slam campaign in training and on match day. the 2007 squad saw the likes of Heaslip, Bowe, Kearney and Luke Fitz ommitted all of whom have starred for the national team since and arguably deserved to go (maybe fitz was too young).

for this WC i'd love to see the likes of Ruddock, Dom Ryan, Hagan, Spence all considered and possibly brought along to freshen up and revitalise a squad that must know each other inside out at this stage.

Projects such as Mushy and Donncadh Ryan need to be scrapped as they are not proving themselves at provincial level, other players like Flannery and TOL need to be given rest over the summer to give them a chance to recover form.

who knows, we may scrummage Oz off the park and top our group!

LeeroyJones

Podge_irl wrote: »

He started 20 players this 6N, and 19 in the 07 one. Bringing in Trimble for Fitz was the only non-injury enforced change made all tournament.

Having a "settled" XV wasn't in and of itself the problem for EOS. It worked well during the 07 6N. The problem was that they were all playing like drain pipes.

No, having a settled XV was not the problem in itself, the problem lay in the clear lack of options that EOS had. This was clear when we found ourselves underperforming (for whatever reason, playing like drainpipes or otherwise) and EOS had to make changes but could do no more than swap hookers, swap scrum halves, put Trimble or Duffy somewhere in the backline and swap full-backs.

Now, Kidney has the options. Should he select this XV, for example, he can make the following subs if there are 2007esque performances
1. Healy (Court)
2. Flannery (Best)
3. Ross
4. DOC (Cullen)
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. SOB (Wallace)
8. Heaslip

9. Reddan (Stringer)
10. Sexton (ROG)
11. Earls (Fitzgerald)
12. D'arcy
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

And if the next fixture requires wholesale changes then Kidney could name
1. Court
2. Cronin
3. Buckley
4. Cullen
5. MOD
6. Leamy
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Stringer
10. ROG
11. Fitzgerald
12. Wallace
13. BOD
14. Trimble
15. Murphy

molloyjh

LeeroyJones wrote: »

When we think of the term 'Leinster' we think of a team playing some lovely, attractive and effective rugby. But if we cast our minds back to September & early October, Leinster were one of the most frustrating teams to watch. It wasn't until the Racing Metro match that really got Leinster going and since then have gone from strength to strength thriving on a gameplan which they are well accustomed to.
The first few 6 Nations matches remind me a lot of Leinster in September. I believe, and only time will tell one way or the other, that the England match will be looked back at by Irish supporters in the same way Leinster supporters look back at the Racing Metro match.

I made this comparison before the Wales game and suggested that we'd only click in the England game. Leinsters season was kick-started by the game against Munster, the big rival. It was an upward curve from there on. The best thing was though that once they found their grove they had plenty of time to build momentum as it was early in the season. Ireland found their grove in the last game of the championship and now won't play again for a number of months. I just hope that time off doesn't negate the good work we saw come to fruition at the weekend.

TheRevolution wrote: »

Its notable that our top performers this 6N, O'Brien and Ross, might not have even been playing had it not been for injury and we may never have seen the best 9-10 combo all tournament had O'Leary not suffered an injury.

This is another serious concern of mine. If TOL for example is fit for the WC will we see Kidney go back and select him again despite all we've learned from this 6 Nations. We really have no way of knowing given that pretty much all the changes he made were forced changes. We're not going to know until the WC itself. Remember he stuck with TOL even when he wasn't fully fit and hadn't been training. So our views on the logical and obvious choices have been shown to be irrelevant.

I'm hopeful that this 6 Nations helped to bed down exactly what Kidney will be doing in the WC. It proved to him, the players and the fans that we have the talent and the ability. Time will tell...

Podge_irl

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Now, Kidney has the options. Should he select this XV, for example, he can make the following subs if there are 2007esque performances

And if the next fixture requires wholesale changes then Kidney could name

I'd love to know what makes you think he would actually do either of the above.

Kidney no more has a "squad" then EOS did.

trackguy

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd love to know what makes you think he would actually do either of the above.

Kidney no more has a "squad" then EOS did.

He does, by quite a stretch.

Kearney, Fitz, Earls, Trimble, Murphy, Bowe and McFadden have all seen significant gametime under Kidney in the back 3.

He has 2 genuine fly-halves - EOS did not.

He has 3 scrumhalves.

He has 4 world class backrows and more options other that.

He has 3 world class second rows and other options.

He has 2/3 hookers to choose from.

Court, Ross, Healy, Buckley and Hayes are in contention for the props.

That amounts to way more than 2007 and EOS's considerations.

LeeroyJones

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd love to know what makes you think he would actually do either of the above.

Kidney no more has a "squad" then EOS did.

Could you please point out the players, outside of the probable XV, that EOS had at his disposal that are at the same calibre and hold the same experience as those that Kidney has?

jacothelad

Simon Best.....Tight head usually used daftly as a loosehead sub by EOS
John Hayes
Marcus Horan
Bryan Young....Emergency only. Tackle dummy. He was better then than now.
Rory Best
Jerry Flannery
Frankie Sheahan
Donncha O'Callaghan
Paul O'Connell
Malcolm O'Kelly[
Neil Best
Simon Easterby
Stephen Ferris....tackle dummy.
Alan Quinlan
David Wallace
Denis Leamy
Isaac Boss
Eoin Reddan
Peter Stringer
Ronan O'Gara
Paddy Wallace
Gordon D'Arcy
Gavin Duffy.....bag carrier
Brian O'Driscoll
Brian Carney...bag carrier
Denis Hickie
Shane Horgan
Andrew Trimble
Girvan Dempsey
Geordan Murphy


Apart from those still playing it's a squad that is not just as good or as dynamic as todays I don't think. Ferris for example was ignored completely. Add Bowe, Earls, Kearney, Healy, Ross, Heaslip, Cronin to the mix and it looks a bit better.
]Of those who have retired or are not in the squad only MAL and Hickie are really missed.

WeeBushy

Half the time I think Kidney has built a squad, and half the time I think he has hasn't.

It's fair to say we have more options now than we did going into WC07. Our back 3 options are plentiful, we have two guys going hammer and tongs for OH, 3 SHs, a plethora of back rows, 3 very good 2nd rows, and finally a front row to be (resonably) proud of. We lack competition at centre and prop, but that's about it.

However, despite having all this available to him, Kidney doesn't seem to be using it, I mean he only made two unforced changes all competition. That's pretty bad. Even Italy changed things around.

We have a group of players to compete pretty well in the WC but Kidney isn't taking full advantage of them imo.

jacothelad

WeeBushy wrote: »

Half the time I think Kidney has built a squad, and half the time I think he has hasn't.

It's fair to say we have more options now than we did going into WC07. Our back 3 options are plentiful, we have two guys going hammer and tongs for OH, 3 SHs, a plethora of back rows, 3 very good 2nd rows, and finally a front row to be (resonably) proud of. We lack competition at centre and prop, but that's about it.

However, despite having all this available to him, Kidney doesn't seem to be using it, I mean he only made two unforced changes all competition. That's pretty bad. Even Italy changed things around.

We have a group of players to compete pretty well in the WC but Kidney isn't taking full advantage of them imo.

He's damned if he doesn't make changes by some of us and no doubt would be damned by others if he did. There are Three Mysteries about his team.

1)
Like most posters here I can't for the life of me understand why he continually selects TOL when Reddan is clearly a far more talented s.h. and Stringer and Boss are playing better.

2)
Neither could I understand the original selection of Fitzy, who, let's face it, was lucky to get in the Leinster side after coming back horribly out of form. It was as clear as day that he was out of his depth at F.B. despite him saying it's his preferred position. He is a fine player but has lost form and needs to regain it. He did have patches where we could see his talent. All is not lost.

3)Paddy Wallace played a total of 14 minutes in 5 games. He is a good 12, a very basic 10 - (any of the backs could be as good there - except Trimble) and a dull full back. He is pretty quick and would nake a decent wing sub if needed. None of that explains his selection once Sexton and ROG were in the 22. McFadden is a better player all round than Paddy. I'd have him in the 22 - or even the 15.

It is not strictly true to saythat we have no competiton at 12 & 13. McFadden, O'Malley and Spence have been good to sensational at times this year. Luke Marshall is going to be a real star. Macken is also up there. There are others at the province's academies that are just as exciting. if BOD and Darcy were injured I'd not lose any sleep if McFadden and O'Malley or Spence were flung in at the deep end against most opposition. I'd go so far as to say we've never had it so good at least in prospect in the centres.

As for props...it is a worry.

Andress could and should have been played for the Wolfhounds to see what he can do again.

Court needs to play tighthead for Ulster if he is seriously to be considered by Deccie as a proper option at 3. If he isn't, to be fair to him and Ulster, they need him at 1 where he is rock solid and can be very destructive.

McAllister is coming on by leaps and bounds but he is a loose head.

Provided Ross stays fit and Deccie doesn't have another embolism or a bout of Alzheimer's and select Horan, Hayes and Buckley, we'll likely get by.

Healy, Hagan, Ross, Court, Black, Andress, Buckley, McAllister, Fitzpatrick are all regular starters and if we had a proper scrum coach they would be as good as anyone. We don't take the scrum seriously enough here. I get the iompression that about one third of the penalties against us were in the scrum. I know Healy was penalised 5 times alone by Poison Poite v. Italy out of the 47(?) against us. the scrum is both a weapon and a weakness that costs points. We need to get it right. That is one of the things you can do off the pitch.

ambid

jacothelad wrote: »

...Of those who have retired or are not in the squad only MAL and Hickie are really missed.

... and Girvan Dempsey. He was great and would have been a big addition during this last 6N.

jacothelad

ambid wrote: »

... and Girvan Dempsey. He was great and would have been a big addition during this last 6N.

Ooooooops. How did I forget him. I though that when he was commentating on a game the other night. How I wished he was still playing.

Podge_irl

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Could you please point out the players, outside of the probable XV, that EOS had at his disposal that are at the same calibre and hold the same experience as those that Kidney has?

Heaslip, S. Best, R. Best, N.Best, O'Kelly, Reddan, Quinlan.

S. Best was a better front row then Court (better TH anyway). R. Best was a better back up to Flannery then Cronin is to Best. O'Kelly was better and far more experienced then Cullen. Backrow is weaker I'll give you, but not by much. Quinlan and N Best were both playing good rugby in 07 and Heaslip was criminally overlooked. Scrum half options were much the same as they are now. Assuming you had Hickie and Horgan starting you had Trimble and Bowe in reserve for the wings - neither as good as they are now admittedly.

10 aside, I don't think his options were much worse. More to the point he was equally as unlikely to use them as Kidney is now.

As a point of note, in the 2007 6N EOS started 19 different players, this year Kidney started 20.



There is no point listing a XV that Kidney could introduce "if sweeping changes were needed" because he's never going to introduce sweeping changes. I've never understood why people think Kidney has been so much more successful then EOS at building a squad. They're really quite similar (I don't mean this in entirely a bad way either, I think EOS was a good coach).

gosplan

trackguy wrote: »

I firmly believe that Ireland are better placed for this WC than they were for 2007.

There are very few positions there aren't two decent options for. If Kidney uses them, that's a massive plus for us.

Cpt_Blackbeard

gosplan wrote: »

There are very few positions there aren't two decent options for. If Kidney uses them, that's a massive plus for us.

Thats the problem...

WeeBushy

jacothelad wrote: »

It is not strictly true to saythat we have no competiton at 12 & 13. McFadden, O'Malley and Spence have been good to sensational at times this year. Luke Marshall is going to be a real star. Macken is also up there. There are others at the province's academies that are just as exciting. if BOD and Darcy were injured I'd not lose any sleep if McFadden and O'Malley or Spence were flung in at the deep end against most opposition. I'd go so far as to say we've never had it so good at least in prospect in the centres.

Yeah I agree, we do have players who could challenge, but Kidney hasn't given anyone bar BOD, D'Arcy and Wallace a change. Should have made that a bit clearer. I really wish McFadden had been given a game there, and I hope one of Earls/Bowe/Fitzgerald are given a full game at 13 against England and/or France in the warm up matches.

I wouldn't, however, be happy chucking O'Malley/Spence in there untested in the WC. The WC isn't the place for experimentation, we should have all eventualities (within reason) tested before we go.

I agree though, the future is bright.

stephen_n

For all the talk of building a squad we end up with a starting 15 on Saturday and when it came to the 60 minute mark I couldn't see anyone coming off the bench Apart from ROG and Cullen, maybe Stringer that wasn't going to weaken the team. As for it being a settled 15 I don't think so, Kearney, Ferris, TOL and Fla will all be in the starting 15 if fit, there is no use pretending that Kidney won't select that way. If anything this 6N proved more than ever form is completely irrelevant to selection. Yes we have a bigger pool of players to choose from than 2007 but they won't be used.

I do think however that what we saw on Saturday has been coming for a while and hopefully will be the way we play going forward, if not quite with that level of intensity. I have strong doubts remaining about Gafney but hope to be proven wrong on them!

big toenails

I must say that I was pessimistic about kidney's indecision for no.10 for the last couple of years but what would I know about rugby. Sexton was very impressive on Saturday. I am very for happy and hopeful with this team going into the WC. The reality is we should have won the GS this year.

Ulstermello

trackguy wrote: »

Those incidents wouldn't worry me either. However, I am worried about the lineout. Gone are the days where we are wrecking the opposition's lineout.

POC and DOC have been great around the park in the last few games but they haven't made much of an impact on oppositions' lineouts in a long time.

This used to be a strength - what's gone wrong?

Just on this - i think Kidney's brought in a more conservative defensive system - with less speculative attempts at stealing balls and interceptions and more focus on keeping a solid line. and to be fair it worked brilliantly this tournament - once we were set I couldn't see anyone getting past us.

If it wasn't for the illegal welsh lineout and an uncharacteristic missed tackle from Darce we could be celebrating another grand slam.

However I'm not sure i would say the same against NZ who can crash, crash, crash, offload, crash with such power that it is very very hard to keep them out!

Sin a bhfuil

WeeBushy wrote: »

Yeah I agree, we do have players who could challenge, but Kidney hasn't given anyone bar BOD, D'Arcy and Wallace a change. Should have made that a bit clearer. I really wish McFadden had been given a game there, and I hope one of Earls/Bowe/Fitzgerald are given a full game at 13 against England and/or France in the warm up matches.

I wouldn't, however, be happy chucking O'Malley/Spence in there untested in the WC. The WC isn't the place for experimentation, we should have all eventualities (within reason) tested before we go.

I agree though, the future is bright.

Young players are going to do best when they are brought into a confident and settled team - not when the most experienced players are looking for form. Its a pity there isn't another game next week when McFaddan could be given another go maybe in the centre.

Out of the backs (9-15) who started against England, only 3 were at the last RWC (and with Kearney & Fitzgerald to come back, that is a fair bit of change).

At least Earls will be back playing 13 for Munster and maybe McFaddan will get some time at 12 for Leinster.

Let the Ulster youngsters get a bit more experience at club level before thinking of bringing them into such key positions in the centre for Ireland as their decision making could cost us (like letting Munster get the bonus point win by scoring another try because they kept playing the ball when the time was up in the Magners - there is a bit of a learning curve still there).

Third_Echelon

Overall, it was a very frustrating 6N, which needed a win against England so it wasn't all doom and gloom. The stupid penalties that were constantly conceded where incredibly frustrating. They killed us, especially against France...

My own personal opinion pre-6N, was that this was a perfect chance to blood new players at test rugby level. The likes of McFadden, Toner, Cronin, Duffy, Ruddock etc. These guys are the future (possibly) and having caps under the belt going into a world cup would have been priceless for them. The dropping of McFadden out of the squad completely in some cases, in particular in favour of Wallace, I just didn't get! What was Kidney thinking? The only reason that Ross and O'Brien for example got game time and turned out to be our shining stars was because of injury to regulars!

Kidney's substitutions at times as well were all over the shop as well. Why take O'Gara off after 50 or 60 mins against Wales when he was playing well? Just silly things like that are quite annoying. He seemed to be making subs at times just for the sake of it...

The England game for most people will paper over a lot of cracks, but there are still a lot of questions that need to be asked of this management. I guess we will have to wait and see what the world cup warm up games bring.

profitius

One thing you can say about Kidney is that his teams usually perform when the big tournaments come around. He'll get the best out of them in the world cup because of his ability to do so. Unlike EOS who was poor at man management.

A happy camp is vital during world cups and we've seen in the past how unhappiness can be a disaster for teams. Ireland under EOS were examples where players just didn't perform. South Africa in 2003 and theres also examples in soccer world cups.

Running before we can walk.

We have a few games left to play before this thread is meaningful.

One game vs England and the difference in attitude in this thread is completely and utterly different.

Lets see some consistent games before we make our minds up

profitius

Deleted User wrote: »

One game vs England and the difference in attitude in this thread is completely and utterly different.

Lets see some consistent games before we make our minds up

Thats true about the attitude.

I disagree about the consistency. I hear plenty of pundits talking about it too but for me they got better in every match apart from the Welsh match. So it was an upward curve.

Against Italy they were the better team and deserved to win although the Italians had a good late fightback. Against France they scored 3 tries to 1 and with a different ref could have won. Against Scotland they should have won by 20pts+. Against Wales they played bad but still could have won (I thought the ref in the Welsh match was fair besides his big mistake). Against England is all came together.

Australia took time to implement their new style of play and Robbie Deans was on the verge of being sacked. For me Ireland are leaving it late to change their style but better late than never.

Podge_irl

profitius wrote: »

Australia took time to implement their new style of play and Robbie Deans was on the verge of being sacked. For me Ireland are leaving it late to change their style but better late than never.

I think it's fairly impossible to know at this stage how we're set. We really needed one more game to see. England could be a one-off or it could be the start of things working.

I feel that Ireland went into their shells far too much against Scotland and Wales, and reverted to a completely out-dated gameplan. Whether it was design or the team panicking I dunno, but it was worrying. The key will be making sure that they don't do that again and continue forward with the kind of game they played against England.