Proposal to reduce privilege days rejected

gigino

Proposal to reduce privilege days rejected


http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0321/pay_civil.html


Wonder will it mean the end of the CPA soon rather than later ?

RichardAnd

Privilege days being removed won't reduce the number of PS workers nor will it reduce their wages. The only thing it will do is create 2 (it's two isn't it?) extra working days for each PS worker which, I suppose, means "productivity" will increase.

If the problem was productivity, then that's great, well done lads but the problem is not having enough money to keep our PS as it is no matter how productive it might be. As this has no affect on that, I don't see it making much difference either way.

BostonB

CPA?

Daft decision. How can more working days not be more productive. Though i agree it should be Public sector wide not CS only.

They should move the privilege days to compulsory AL days to those days, when a lot of public serving offices are almost completely quiet. They are just wasting energy being open.

I don't accept that theres enough people to cover other people on leave. Many services have struggling with low resources, for increasing demand. In many cases theres isn't any one to cover leave.

bamboozle

BostonB wrote: »

CPA?

Daft decision. How can more working days not be more productive. Though i agree it should be Public sector wide not CS only.

They should move the privilege days to compulsory AL days to those days, when a lot of public serving offices are almost completely quiet. They are just wasting energy being open.

I don't accept that theres enough people to cover other people on leave. Many services have struggling with low resources, for increasing demand. In many cases theres isn't any one to cover leave.

well for a start are there not a few thousand working in the HR dept in the HSE that could be transferred to other areas of the public & civil service?

sollar

I don't see what the problem is. Public Servants are not over holidayed. They still get less days than other EU countries.

RobbieTheRobber

gigino wrote: »

Proposal to reduce privilege days rejected


http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0321/pay_civil.html


Wonder will it mean the end of the CPA soon rather than later ?

You have said this was rejected, who was it that rejected it?

SBWife

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

You have said this was rejected, who was it that rejected it?

The Civil Service Arbitration Board.

I don't see why our Civil Servants still get days off that were originally put in place in celebration of the King's Birthday and Empire Day. The removal of the days didn't apply to all either. It was only those receiving in excess of 30 days annual leave (yes, that's 6 weeks for those of us in the private sector) that would lose both days. Those with up to 25 days would have both days converted into annual leave days and those with 25 days up to 30 days would have one day converted.

professore

sollar wrote: »

I don't see what the problem is. Public Servants are not over holidayed. They still get less days than other EU countries.

Hmmm another case of quoting other EU countries when it suits your argument. What about comparing salaries & pension entitlements to other EU countries? ATM we should be second from BOTTOM of the league in terms of salaries and benefits for Public Sector workers and government spending in general since our budget deficit is second from bottom - ahead of Greece. This is not Public Sector bashing, merely a statement of fact. There is no money.

BostonB

bamboozle wrote: »

well for a start are there not a few thousand working in the HR dept in the HSE that could be transferred to other areas of the public & civil service?

Probably.

My point really was that cover is a problem. However its solved.

fred252

RichardAnd wrote: »

Privilege days being removed won't reduce the number of PS workers nor will it reduce their wages. The only thing it will do is create 2 (it's two isn't it?) extra working days for each PS worker which, I suppose, means "productivity" will increase.

If the problem was productivity, then that's great, well done lads but the problem is not having enough money to keep our PS as it is no matter how productive it might be. As this has no affect on that, I don't see it making much difference either way.

if the government is intending to cut x-thousand public service jobs won't we need this increased productivity?

RichardAnd

fred252 wrote: »

if the government is intending to cut x-thousand public service jobs won't we need this increased productivity?

A fair point but on privilage days, PS offices are mostly closed and hence, there is no one covering for missing staff. Not the case in all places mind but for many if not most, this is true.

Regardless though, productivity is a minor concern. I'd rather Ireland have a crappy yet cheap PS than an expensive and marginally decent one.

gigino

RichardAnd wrote: »

Regardless though, productivity is a minor concern.

That mindset is part of the problem I see everyday though. People dossing and using every excuse to get a day off.

Productivity and efficiency should be of concern though...if the country is to get out of the mess then the public sector should be more productive and efficient.

Elsewhere people would not be tolerated if they said " productivity is a minor concern ". I remember 28 years ago someone asking a Telecom Eireann person about the reason it took 4 or 6 months to get a fixed phone line installed, and eventually it boiled down to " productivity is a minor concern ".

Sleepy

Don't they realise that rejecting their privelege days being reduced increases the likelihood of a 100% reduction in their working days for many of their members?

I'd be fuming if I was in one of those unions.

RichardAnd

gigino wrote: »

That mindset is part of the problem I see everyday though. People dossing and using every excuse to get a day off.

Productivity and efficiency should be of concern though...if the country is to get out of the mess then the public sector should be more productive and efficient.

Elsewhere people would not be tolerated if they said " productivity is a minor concern ". I remember 28 years ago someone asking a Telecom Eireann person about the reason it took 4 or 6 months to get a fixed phone line installed, and eventually it boiled down to " productivity is a minor concern ".

That's not what I meant. Productivity is a concern but right now, we should be concerned with getting a PS we can afford, never mind how productive. Cost is the primary concern.

femur61

I don't understand are people just being selfish and I mean the PS, there is no money. My husband like many has lost his job therefore he or I don't pay any tax. He can't claim because he was self employed now we have to pay extra school bus fees, house and water tax just so some can get privilage days and god knows what else.

bonzos

This decision once again shows who really runs this country.....to state that an employee show be entitle to time off for something that dates back over 100 years! PS reform my hole!I dont remember seeing Turlogh O Sullivan's name on the ballot sheet??So why the hell is he deciding how my taxes are being spent(wasted)?

SBWife

I don't think most of the PS understand the meaning of the word productivity. It was a red herring during the whole bloody benchmarking disaster that helped get us in this position in the first place. "We'll become more productive if you pay us more" translated to "blah, blah blah pay us more money" in the minds of many. Charlie McCreevey has a lot to answer for if he every comes back from Brussels.

bonzos

This BS of its "only" saving around €4m!!!same story with the state cars...its only a few million!!Has none of these clowns learned this this money does not grown on trees and that when all the "few" millions are added up they become billions!

BostonB

They need to cut services and simplify the ones that need most manpower. Also at how things are done and optimize them. The amount of time wasted because paperwork has to go from A to B to C then back to A again is crazy. But theres a general lack of interest in efficiency IMO. Which was brought home to me with recent hospital visit with a family member.

Hospital 1 allowed the patient to fast at home, rather than take a hospital bed overnight, then come in early to get bloods done before the operation. Had operation, then because it was done early patient recovered enough to be let home the same day. No beds used.

Hospital 2 took the patient in, the day before to fast and get bloods. Didn't do the bloods, even after being reminded, and indeed forget to do them early the next day, so patient had op late, recovered late, thus needed a bed for a second night too.

No ones watching this kinda wastage, and its costing us money.

RichardAnd

Here's one. Does anyone know the reason the PS gets privilege days to begin with? Like where does the rule itself come from?

SBWife

RichardAnd wrote: »

Here's one. Does anyone know the reason the PS gets privilege days to begin with? Like where does the rule itself come from?

They were originally given for the King's Birthday and Empire Day

bonzos

I would love to see Mr Gilmore questioned on his view on this decision.

hmmm

Let me see if I understand this. The first time the Croke Park deal has been tested ends up costing the taxpayer more - we now have to pay overtime & hire agencies to fill in the gaps caused by the 2 days extra holidays every public servant has just received?

GUBU.

Sure if 2 days extra holidays will mean little or no savings or productivity impact, that's a huge statement in itself.

ParkRunner

Even if the 2 days had been taken away it would not satisfy in any way the insatiable appetite to bash the public sector.
The proposal was refused by the independent board because the management side “had not demonstrated significant savings consistent with the transformation that is required”.
Savings will have to be found elsewhere, simple as. I don't see why people need to froth at the mouth over this as millions upon millions is being saved in other areas of the public sector without acknowledgement.

gazzer

hmmm wrote: »

Let me see if I understand this. The first time the Croke Park deal has been tested ends up costing the taxpayer more - we now have to pay overtime & hire agencies to fill in the gaps caused by the 2 days extra holidays every public servant has just received?

GUBU.

Sure if 2 days extra holidays will mean little or no savings or productivity impact, that's a huge statement in itself.

Its not as simple as that. In the Civil Service you get 20 days annual leave a year as a Clerical Officer. If you are a Staff Officer or an Executive Officer you get 21 days leave a year.

These 2 privilege days are on top of that so in fact the leave entitlement for a CO is 22 days and for a SO or EO 23 days. The only difference between privilege days and annual leave days is that the privilege day had to be taken at a certain time period.

Any Civil Service department I have worked in opens on a privilege day. There may not be a full complement of staff in but the department is still open for business. There is no agency staff or overtime paid on those days. In fact you would be hard pressed to find any department paying out overtime at the moment. The last time overtime was offered in my department was 6 years ago.

One of the main reasons that it was decided to amalgamate the privilege days and annual leave days together for Civil Service staff is that CS staff get less annual leave than other members of the public service.

The VAST majority of CS staff are on 23 days a year or less (when you add the 2 days privilege days)

If the privilege days had not been added to annual leave it would have meant that there was an even bigger gap between CS leave entitlement and PS leave entitlement.

Sleepy

And imagine how those of us in the private sector on our 20 days a year feel?

gazzer

Sleepy wrote: »

And imagine how those of us in the private sector on our 20 days a year feel?

There are plenty of people in the private sector on more than 20 days a year leave though. I know that any of my friends who work in the private sector get more leave than me (21 days).

gigino

Sleepy wrote: »

And imagine how those of us in the private sector on our 20 days a year feel?

I know how you feel. My brother in law is self employed + always is moaning nobody ever pays him to take time off. The older, long serving people in the public service get plenty of time off and he often comments on that ( oh, on holidays again ? well for some etc ) . I guess he has a point.

20Cent

An independent arbitration board found that the change would be not give significant savings. There are loads of cuts and savings being made all over the PS these small storms in a tea cup are used to create more division between public and private sector workers.

gigino

20Cent wrote: »

There are loads of cuts and savings being made all over the PS

Did you not see the front page headline in yesterdays Sunday Independent, ( like it or not its Irelands biggest selling broadsheet, and I have no connection to it ). It was about how the public service got a billion of an increase over the past several years. So I do not think the cuts and savings you mention are big enough when government expenditure on the public service is still double what it was ten years ago. I see a lot of money wasted every day. We had not that bad a public service ten years ago.

SBWife

The savings would have been in the region of €5m while it's but a drop in the bucket it's still a savings. You tie together enough small savings and all of a sudden you're getting somewhere.

As for those with smaller annual allowances the rejected proposal would have only taken the two days away from individuals with 30 or more days of annual leave the lowest levels were never going to be effected. The poster with 20 days was always going to have his two days converted to annual leave - so I don't get why he's being so defensive.

BostonB

gigino wrote: »

I know how you feel. My brother in law is self employed + always is moaning nobody ever pays him to take time off. The older, long serving people in the public service get plenty of time off and he often comments on that ( oh, on holidays again ? well for some etc ) . I guess he has a point.

You make a lifestyle choice when picking a job.

Psychedelic

Why do the savings have to be "significant" in order to implement them? Surely any savings that can be made, big or small, should be implemented. €4m was the potential savings figure quoted in the TV3 report - I would hardly call that insignificant.

sollar

I suppose the old adage 'pick your battles wisely' comes to mind here. Those 2 days mean nothing really in the overall scheme of things. Its not as if they are new they are already in place. Hardly worth the fight and a fight there would be.

jimmycrackcorm

gazzer wrote: »

There are plenty of people in the private sector on more than 20 days a year leave though. I know that any of my friends who work in the private sector get more leave than me (21 days).

Only in MNC's and large organizations. Any small or medium business only sticks to the statutory requirement of 20 days and that never increases no matter the length of service. The same businesses are also the ones hardest hit in the recession.

SBWife

sollar wrote: »

I suppose the old adage 'pick your battles wisely' comes to mind here. Those 2 days mean nothing really in the overall scheme of things. Its not as if they are new they are already in place. Hardly worth the fight and a fight there would be.

What part of the word AGREEMENT don't the CS/PS understand?

not yet

femur61 wrote: »

I don't understand are people just being selfish and I mean the PS, there is no money. My husband like many has lost his job therefore he or I don't pay any tax. He can't claim because he was self employed now we have to pay extra school bus fees, house and water tax just so some can get privilage days and god knows what else.

Cop on to yourself would ya....I'm sure your husband make good money in the private sector in the boom years.
so please stop the whinging about some people with 20 years service on 420 euro a week

sollar

SBWife wrote: »

What part of the word AGREEMENT don't the CS/PS understand?

There was no agreement to get rid of those days.

SBWife

not yet wrote: »

20 years service on 420 euro a week

That's BULL

Even the cleaners in the civil service make more than €420 after a few years and it's what a clerical officer starts on. The salary scales are publicly available.

dan_d

Be interested to see what the EU/IMF have to say on this.

Small savings they may be, but they're still savings let's face it. There's a whole "reduce public spending in the PS, make the pS more efficient" clause in that agreement. I'd imagine removing the privilege days falls under that heading, no matter how you look at it.

hmmm

gazzer wrote: »

Any Civil Service department I have worked in opens on a privilege day. There may not be a full complement of staff in but the department is still open for business. There is no agency staff or overtime paid on those days. In fact you would be hard pressed to find any department paying out overtime at the moment. The last time overtime was offered in my department was 6 years ago.

So the taxpayer who pays for these days off is getting less services as a result? This compounds this silliness.

If the privilege days had not been added to annual leave it would have meant that there was an even bigger gap between CS leave entitlement and PS leave entitlement.

I really couldn't care less what internecine whataboutery exists amongst those who work for the government, I doubt anyone else in the private sector does either.

RobbieTheRobber

Hold on who exactly appointed the arbitration board?

Am i wrong in thinking privilege days are gone as a result of this decsion?

Is the CPA not to meant streamline the entire PS/CS not to make the smallest section of the PS/Cs split worse off than the rest?

The_Thing

What is an Arbitration Board exactly - is there an equal number of members from both sides and how are they selected?

RobbieTheRobber

hmmm wrote: »

So the taxpayer who pays for these days off is getting less services as a result? This compounds this silliness..

What?
No these privilege days occur on days of low need, much in the same way private sector organisations do not run full staff at all times of the week!

For example the day after stephens days is regularly a day that was used to take this privilege day.

hmmm wrote: »

I really couldn't care less what internecine whataboutery exists amongst those who work for the government, I doubt anyone else in the private sector does either.

Ah you dont care as long as you feel some of those evil bastards in the CS/PS who ruined this country get it eh?

SBWife

The_Thing wrote: »

What is an Arbitration Board exactly - is there an equal number of members from both sides and how are they selected?

All I can find out is that it's headed by the barrister Turlough O'Donnell.

sollar

dan_d wrote: »

Be interested to see what the EU/IMF have to say on this.

They won't care a hoot i'd imagine.

n97 mini

sollar wrote: »

They won't care a hoot i'd imagine.

"Bank time" and now this.

When the Govt can't even get through the simplest of reforms I'd imagine there are people in the IMF that are chomping at the bit to come in here to slash and burn.

sollar

n97 mini wrote: »

"Bank time" and now this.

When the Govt can't even get through the simplest of reforms I'd imagine there are people in the IMF that are chomping at the bit to come in here to slash and burn.

They are simple meaningless reforms that don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. They care more about the bigger stuff like existing staff taking on the work left behind by thousands of retiring staff. And cooperation for 25,000 reductions. This is what matters.

channelsurfer2

Sleepy wrote: »

Don't they realise that rejecting their privelege days being reduced increases the likelihood of a 100% reduction in their working days for many of their members?

I'd be fuming if I was in one of those unions.

i raised the issue with the head of my union and he more or less dismissed the idea that the CPA agreement would fall if we retained our privilige days and said they are taking it to arbitration..the outcome of which was announced today....its the attitude like his that most rank and file members know will get us another paycut....but you have to say that if the senior civil servants in finance couldnt make a case for the economic benifit then they should be fired for pure incompetence for not doing their job correctly

Idbatterim

all this is mickey mouse, whats this meant to save 5 million?!!! LOL! By saying productivity will increase, you are saying you arent working to your potential, go in and tell a private sector employer that! go in and tell them you will work harder for more money! THE IMF surely cant ignore the likes of CPA agreement shambles? Im beginning to wonder if even the IMF are for real, we expected them to come in like lions not lambs!

Hotblack Desiato

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

For example the day after stephens days is regularly a day that was used to take this privilege day.

And most if not all civil service departments used to close on that day.

Last year, they were open - this cost money in heating and lighting offices at a time when demand for their services is zero. They should close the offices on that day, and as well close most of them (except public offices) on the other two working days between Christmas and New Year as well - make the use of annual leave compulsory on those two days and THAT would save money - heating and lighting offices on 3 days at the a**e end of December when the public just assumes these offices will be closed anyway and most people in the private sector (except retail) are tucked up at home eating turkey sandwiches, not forming a company or applying for an export licence.

Interestingly all the coffee shops between the south end of Grafton St and the canal close between 22 Dec and January - because almost all of the private sector office workers in the area are off work... practically everyone at work in that area in the last week of December will be a public servant.

Ah you dont care as long as you feel some of those evil bastards in the CS/PS who ruined this country get it eh?

Same thing as bank time, in reality it will save little or no money but who cares, it's a chance to stick the boot in which is all that matters.