Compulsory driving lessons

E39MSport

Just heard on Radio 1 that in the near future before you sit the driving test you need to have taken 12 driving lessons !

Welcome but it's going to be a problem for a lot of people.

EDIT: See here
http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/Essential_Driver_Training.pdf
This is a different story and it a lot more structured than 12 arbitrary lessons so I've snipped out some of my comments.

Guy:Incognito

They seem to manage just fine, and have done for a long time in many other civilised countries.

The test should be harder and a decent minimum of hours should have to be logged in different conditions with properly certified instructors.

keithclancy

E39MSport wrote: »

Just heard on Radio 1 that in the near future before you sit the driving test you need to have taken 12 driving lessons !

What a load of old crap.

I never took a lesson and passed first time at 19. I wouldn't have had the money to pay for lessons anyway. The lessons would cost more than a car these days !

That's going to be a problem for a lot of people.

12 lessons at 1 hour per lesson at 30 euros per hour is 360 euros, plus if you pay in advance you get a discount.

What kind of car would you get + insurance, motor tax and maintenence would you get for 360 euros ... the car would have to be free or something.

MagicSean

I took twelve lessons with three different instructors and passed first time at 18.

Twixster

I think the 12 lessons is a good idea
.
I did my test 10 years ago and at the time did only 6 lessons in a quick space of time, I managed to pass but honestly I could not drive that well at all.
I had learned how to drive the test route and that was all, when I went out on my own in other conditions and different roads I did some pretty stupid things and am grateful that nothing happened to me.

My brother then took me out some more and I got more confident (even though I had the full license!) and I got better as time went on but I should not have passed.

E39MSport

keithclancy wrote: »

12 lessons at 1 hour per lesson at 30 euros per hour is 360 euros, plus if you pay in advance you get a discount.

What kind of car would you get + insurance, motor tax and maintenence would you get for 360 euros ... the car would have to be free or something.

I didn't mention running costs.

The car would clearly have to come in at under 360 by your calculations. Perhaps you could go look at the bangernomics thread.

Guy:Incognito

Anyway, a race to the botom to get people on the roads as quickly and cheaply as possible like it has been for years is a bad idea and need schanging.

The changes with the learner permits and the like was a decent start, till everyone realised it wasnt being enforced then carried on as usual. A major crackdown is needed.

maximoose

I'd agree with this, and the 6 month wait to apply for your test should be dropped.

Atomic Pineapple

Something like this but mixed with 2/3 different instructors is a good idea.

The test also needs an overhaul, passing it is not exactly a sign of being a good or safe driver.

Henry Ford III

Compulsory training is already a reality for new motorbike riders. No harm imho, but can be expensive.

keithclancy

E39MSport wrote: »

I didn't mention running costs.

The car would clearly have to come in at under 360 by your calculations. Perhaps you could go look at the bangernomics thread.

Running costs are the costs of having a car, buying the car can be the 'cheap' part.

I don't see how you can think its a bad idea when 360 euros is the total cost of getting the license that will do them for the rest of their life driving.

coylemj

E39MSport wrote: »

Just heard on Radio 1 that in the near future before you sit the driving test you need to have taken 12 driving lessons !

What a load of old crap.

I never took a lesson and passed first time at 19. I wouldn't have had the money to pay for lessons anyway. The lessons would cost more than a car these days !

That's going to be a problem for a lot of people.

This has been signalled for several years now, I don't know what point you're making. Once they started the process of certifying driving instructors to be approved it was obvious that it was part of the process leading to mandatory lessons for learner drivers.

Of course you could also put on your cynic's hat and say that it was the result of effective lobbying by vested interests, the same as the way tyres have to have the 'E' mark in order to pass the NCT, the implication being that the Japanese drive cars with unsafe tyres. The motor industry also tried a similar stunt several years ago in an attempt to completely block Japanese imports by claiming that because Japanese car seat belts didn't have an 'E' mark that they weren't safe to be used in Ireland. General derision closed down that one but they succeeded with the tyres.

The established driving instruction schools didn't like the way one-man driving instructors were operating in the larger towns, now they've effectively shut them down. Now we can sit back and wait for the sting where someone from a newspaper or RTE hands over a large amount of cash and gets a fake certification saying that they've done the required amount of lessons when they haven't.

jester77

E39MSport wrote: »

Just heard on Radio 1 that in the near future before you sit the driving test you need to have taken 12 driving lessons !

What a load of old crap.

I never took a lesson and passed first time at 19. I wouldn't have had the money to pay for lessons anyway. The lessons would cost more than a car these days !

That's going to be a problem for a lot of people.

It's not crap, it's the total opposite. It's absolutely moronic that anyone is allowed control a vehicle with no training, it's a danger to both themselves and everyone else on the road.

I did my driving test in Germany a long while back. Cost over €2000 at the time for the classes, courses and driving. Would probably cost more now a days. All the young Germans there had jobs to help finance their course. I had to do day time driving, night time driving, city driving, suburb driving, motorway driving and the skills that go along with it. Each of the sessions required a minimum number of hours. I also had to do an eye test, a full days first aid course with exam at the end and a 3 nights every week in a class room learning about the rules of the road, how a car works and what to do in different scenarios. Only once the theory class is complete and passed can you take the driving test. At no time are you allowed to be in a vehicle on your own without an instructor, so if you fail the test you walk home!

unkel

I'm not in favour of a minimum number of compulsory lessons. That said, the test should be more severe and there should be NO DRIVING at all (except in a dual control vehicle with a qualified instructor) until someone has their full license

The number of single vehicle accidents where typically a young inexperienced and incompetent driver and some friends are killed is appalling in this country.

Gophur

E39MSport wrote: »

Just heard on Radio 1 that in the near future before you sit the driving test you need to have taken 12 driving lessons !

What a load of old crap.

I never took a lesson and passed first time at 19. I wouldn't have had the money to pay for lessons anyway. The lessons would cost more than a car these days !

That's going to be a problem for a lot of people.

So, because you passed without taking lessons, nobody should be obliged to take lessons?

Strange, strange logic.

(The fact you passed your test doesn't make you a good or safe driver)

jmx009

When is this rule going to be effective from?

I am on my provisional (within the first 6 months). I intend to apply for the test as soon as my 6 months are over (June). Does anyone know if i will have to take the 12 driving leasons before i appear for the test?

bladespin

Good god, how can a test you can pass without any lessons be considered a test at all?

Applies for new licenses from April 4th AFAIK.

Gophur

jmx009 wrote: »

When is this rule going to be effective from?

I am on my provisional (within the first 6 months). I intend to apply for the test as soon as my 6 months are over (June). Does anyone know if i will have to take the 12 driving leasons before i appear for the test?

What lessons are you taking?

How many?

In what/whose car?

E39MSport

Gophur wrote: »

So, because you passed without taking lessons, nobody should be obliged to take lessons?

Strange, strange logic.

(The fact you passed your test doesn't make you a good or safe driver)

Strange inference. That's your logic not mine.

Imposing 12 lessons on a learner driver won't necessarily make them a good or safe driver either. It's arbitrary at best and can be money spent for nothing. It still allows for someone who has never driven a car before to get on the road.

I don't think people should be given a licence in the first place without proving that they are capable behind a wheel. Then there is the chicken and egg scenario.

The German approach sounds like a good way to do things although the cost would be very prohibitive here.

I'm all for making our roads a better and safer place but this bodge will get us nowhere imo. The system needs an overhaul and not patching.

stevenmu

jmx009 wrote: »

When is this rule going to be effective from?

I am on my provisional (within the first 6 months). I intend to apply for the test as soon as my 6 months are over (June). Does anyone know if i will have to take the 12 driving leasons before i appear for the test?

I think it comes into effect for people who get their first learner permit after 1st April (I might have the date wrong but it won't apply to anyone who already has their first permit)

edit: I see someone else already mentioned 4th April.

E39MSport

bladespin wrote: »

Good god, how can a test you can pass without any lessons be considered a test at all?

Applies for new licenses from April 4th AFAIK.

A test is a test - thats how.

I learned in a car park in my Father's car and I studied the rules. It's not rocket science.

CiniO

E39MSport wrote: »

The German approach sounds like a good way to do things although the cost would be very prohibitive here.

Why?
Even if obtaining a full licence would cost 2000 euros I can't see anything wrong with it.
Cost of motoring is so high in this country, that 2000 euros more or less, wouldn't really change anything.

Beside in almost every domain of your life you have to be trained before you start doing something.
Every kid goes to school. For most jobs you need some sort of qualification which includes training, before you start doing it.

Why then people think, that driving is an exception? That it's something everyone can learn on it's own? And the most sad thing is, that this self learning usually is over on the day when test is passed. No one wants to improve it's skills as driver if one already has a licence.

Driving is one of the most dangerous things most of us do everyday. One single mistake while driving, can kill someone.
Everyone before doing it, should be properly trained.

Proper driver education is most crucial thing.

E39MSport

CiniO wrote: »

Why?
Even if obtaining a full licence would cost 2000 euros I can't see anything wrong with it.
Cost of motoring is so high in this country, that 2000 euros more or less, wouldn't really change anything.

Beside in almost every domain of your life you have to be trained before you start doing something.
Every kid goes to school. For most jobs you need some sort of qualification which includes training, before you start doing it.

Why then people think, that driving is an exception? That it's something everyone can learn on it's own? And the most sad thing is, that this self learning usually is over on the day when test is passed. No one wants to improve it's skills as driver if one already has a licence.

Driving is one of the most dangerous things most of us do everyday. One single mistake while driving, can kill someone.
Everyone before doing it, should be properly trained.

Proper driver education is most crucial thing.

2k wouldn't change anything? Are you serious?

And you can't seriously compare a child going to school with learning to drive.

Have we got a driving school lobby on here today? Perhaps I've missed out on a wonderful opportunity to improve my life skills by not taking lessons.

Is it too late?

edit: I've added a link to first post. It's a differnet story in my eyes now.

ON RADIO 1 at the moment

CiniO

E39MSport wrote: »

2k wouldn't change anything? Are you serious?

And you can't seriously compare going to school with learning to drive.

Have we got a driving school lobby on here today? Perhaps I've missed out on a wonderful opportunity to improve my life skills by not taking lessons.

Is it too late?

edit: you've totally burned your argument btw. Everyone makes mistake even the best prepared people.

ON RADIO 1 at the moment

Yes, but you must admit, that someone properly trained, is much less likely to make mistake, than someone who learned himself and luckily passed the test.

I've seen people here in Ireland with full licence, who had problems with most basic things. I've see once someone who didn't understand why car didn't want to climb up the hill, but she didn't try to reduce gear from 4th to anything lower.
I've seen a person who had problems overtaking a tractor on absolutely empty road.
And many many more... all of them had full licence.

And yes. I don't think the price is high.
During your whole life you are spending probably hundreds of thousands of euros on your cars, taxes, insurance, petrol, repairs, etc.
Comparing to all these, what is couple thousand euro in the beginning to learn driving properly?
Young people are paying over 2000 euros every year for insurance, but they wouldn't want to spend that much to learn to drive.
Come on.

E39MSport

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, but you must admit, that someone properly trained, is much less likely to make mistake, than someone who learned himself and luckily passed the test.

I've seen people here in Ireland with full licence, who had problems with most basic things. I've see once someone who didn't understand why car didn't want to climb up the hill, but she didn't try to reduce gear from 4th to anything lower.
I've seen a person who had problems overtaking a tractor on absolutely empty road.
And many many more... all of them had full licence.

And yes. I don't think the price is high.
During your whole life you are spending probably hundreds of thousands of euros on your cars, taxes, insurance, petrol, repairs, etc.
Comparing to all these, what is couple thousand euro in the beginning to learn driving properly?
Young people are paying over 2000 euros every year for insurance, but they wouldn't want to spend that much to learn to drive.
Come on.

Hundreds of thousands?

No, I'm not and don't plan to (and I own 4 cars). I have splashed out but not any more. Thats beside the point anyway.

In any event, I said it would be prohibitive as a compulsory cost which still stands.

Turns out its not just 12 boggo lessons anyway so it's a different story.

Guy:Incognito

E39MSport wrote: »

A test is a test - thats how.

.

There are crap tests and good tests. The driving test here is crap and easy. it needs fixing.

E39MSport

It would indeed make sense to change the test given this new EDT approach.

Boskowski

Since the standard of driving overall here is appaling it can only be considered a step in the right direction.

VolvoMan

jester77 wrote: »

I did my driving test in Germany a long while back. Cost over €2000 at the time for the classes, courses and driving. Would probably cost more now a days. All the young Germans there had jobs to help finance their course. I had to do day time driving, night time driving, city driving, suburb driving, motorway driving and the skills that go along with it. Each of the sessions required a minimum number of hours. I also had to do an eye test, a full days first aid course with exam at the end and a 3 nights every week in a class room learning about the rules of the road, how a car works and what to do in different scenarios. Only once the theory class is complete and passed can you take the driving test. At no time are you allowed to be in a vehicle on your own without an instructor, so if you fail the test you walk home!

You wouldn't expect anything better of Germany, a nation of robots.

keithclancy

VolvoMan wrote: »

You wouldn't expect anything better of Germany, a nation of robots.

Yeh .. us Irish are in the pub far too often to have enough time for driving lessons :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

VolvoMan wrote: »

You wouldn't expect anything better of Germany, a nation of robots.

Yeah our system is much better, drive as soon as you like, take a test if you fancy it and if you fail, meh, keep driving. Great system.

billyboy01

Its about time, just thirty years late!

Now will it be enforced, that is the real question?

The standard of motoring here, is just dangerous!

KingIsabella

Same as someone mentioned here...I learned in a car park with my father and had about 3 or 5 lessons before my test. I passed first time but that doesnt make me a good or safe driver in some peoples eyes. And i don't drive now the way i drove for the 45 minutes of my test or the 3 or 4 hours with instructors, but i do know when i need to be careful and use a bit of cop on and when needs be i do use the techniques used in the driving theory test.

The first thing they say to you in your test is drive off in your usual manner......i bet my backside maybe 2% of people can do that and pass!!

As des Bishop said...the irish driving test is the only test that teaches you to drive badly!

Boskowski

VolvoMan wrote: »

You wouldn't expect anything better of Germany, a nation of robots.

Explain to me how this is a bad thing? Not the robot thing, but what was described in the post you replied to obviously...

VolvoMan

Boskowski wrote: »

Explain to me how this is a bad thing? Not the robot thing, but what was described in the post you replied to obviously...

Well the fact that I wonder how anyone in Germany drives at all is enough, having to jump through hoops like that. Two thousand euro is a lot of money for the likes of a student who will more than likely need a car for commuting to college everyday. It is also a huge amount of time you would have to give up and I feel it is unnecessary.

I can't help thinking that people on here are overly smug and self righteous in the fact that they have their licenses and won't be affected by these new rules. If it was me under the new system I don't think I would be able to afford several hundred euro in lessons which are going to do nothing but help to boost the industry that provides them.

maximoose

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

There are crap tests and good tests. The driving test here is crap and easy. it needs fixing.

Out of interest, what would you change?

Guy:Incognito

maximoose wrote: »

Out of interest, what would you change?

make it more invloved, longer and include motorways.

Thats of course inconjunction with a much better (compulsory) learning system

jester77

VolvoMan wrote: »

Well the fact that I wonder how anyone in Germany drives at all is enough, having to jump through hoops like that. Two thousand euro is a lot of money for the likes of a student who will more than likely need a car for commuting to college everyday. It is also a huge amount of time you would have to give up and I feel it is unnecessary.

I can't help thinking that people on here are overly smug and self righteous in the fact that they have their licenses and won't be affected by these new rules. If it was me under the new system I don't think I would be able to afford several hundred euro in lessons which are going to do nothing but help to boost the industry that provides them.

What hoops? You sign up to a driving course in your locality and that's it. They setup your eye test, organise the first-aid course, they give you lessons a few nights a week, take you out on the driving lessons and also organise and transport you to the theory and practical exam. If you can't afford 2k to learn to drive then there is little chance of you affording a car, insurance, tax, maintenance and petrol every week. And it is not a lot of time, few hours every evening for 2-3 months will cover everything. Small price in the grand scheme of things.

maximoose

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

make it more invloved, longer and include motorways.

Thats of course inconjunction with a much better (compulsory) learning system

Definitely agree on including motorways, the standard of driving on them here is awful and just bloody dangerous.

I dont see the necessity for the reversing around a corner manouevre at all. When I was learning my instructor told me that a very high number of his customers have failed their test on this alone, but in reality how often do you need to reverse around a feckin corner? I've been driving 3 years now and cant think of one example.

Friends from home in Norn Iron couldn't believe when I told them that emergency stop or parallel parking weren't included in the Irish test. Parallel parking meh, don't really see the need for it to be in the test but emergency stop should definitely be in there IMO.

keithclancy

VolvoMan wrote: »

Well the fact that I wonder how anyone in Germany drives at all is enough, having to jump through hoops like that. Two thousand euro is a lot of money for the likes of a student who will more than likely need a car for commuting to college everyday. It is also a huge amount of time you would have to give up and I feel it is unnecessary.

I can't help thinking that people on here are overly smug and self righteous in the fact that they have their licenses and won't be affected by these new rules. If it was me under the new system I don't think I would be able to afford several hundred euro in lessons which are going to do nothing but help to boost the industry that provides them.

If you do the bare minimum in Germany its around 1400 euros, most people end up spending around 2000, the test is quite difficult.

Insurance costs are far lower than Ireland when you pass .. so it's around the same, plus you are a much better quality driver after it.

I think my first insurance quote on a car was around 2600 euros for a 1.4 Opel Astra.

On a bike it was around 1700 pounds (on group 5)

digme

E39MSport wrote: »

Just heard on Radio 1 that in the near future before you sit the driving test you need to have taken 12 driving lessons !

Welcome but it's going to be a problem for a lot of people.

EDIT: See here
http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/Essential_Driver_Training.pdf
This is a different story and it a lot more structured than 12 arbitrary lessons so I've snipped out some of my comments.

It should be a part of the school system at least it's something they can use in the real world.

Boskowski

VolvoMan wrote: »

Well the fact that I wonder how anyone in Germany drives at all is enough, having to jump through hoops like that. Two thousand euro is a lot of money for the likes of a student who will more than likely need a car for commuting to college everyday. It is also a huge amount of time you would have to give up and I feel it is unnecessary.

I can't help thinking that people on here are overly smug and self righteous in the fact that they have their licenses and won't be affected by these new rules. If it was me under the new system I don't think I would be able to afford several hundred euro in lessons which are going to do nothing but help to boost the industry that provides them.

I have to disagree.

What a lot of people fail to see is that a car is a potentially deadly weapon and I think the attitude towards driving expressed is rather careless.

As towards the cost of it, fair enough, I didn't like it myself, it was a rather large amount of money and I had to save up for it, but at the same time it meant that I actually took learning to drive seriously rather than being disparaging about it.

CiniO

keithclancy wrote: »

If you do the bare minimum in Germany its around 1400 euros, most people end up spending around 2000, the test is quite difficult.

Insurance costs are far lower than Ireland when you pass .. so it's around the same, plus you are a much better quality driver after it.

I think my first insurance quote on a car was around 2600 euros for a 1.4 Opel Astra.

On a bike it was around 1700 pounds (on group 5)

In 1999 when I was 17, for obtaining my full licence I had to do 20 hours lessons. It cost me 600 Polish zloty, which at that time was about 100 pounds. For average Polish person it was dear enough, as it was more than monthly minimum salary.
in 2001 when I got my first car, I paid about 300 polish zlotych for my annual insurance, which was about 50 pounds.
There was no road tax or other charges for maintaining the car.
So my licence cost twice as much, as to pay for car for a year.

Here now, young lads pay over 2000 euros insurance per year, and very often up to another 1000 for road tax, which is 3000 annually just to pay car bills.

I can't believe why paying bigger sum for driving lessons should be the problem.
Everyone could leave having a car for year later, but invest money in learning to drive.

L1011

I quite specifically forced my bf through the theory test earlier than he wanted to do it (and got 39/40, he could have done it ages ago and passed ffs) to avoid having to do this; he's already done the standard rural Ireland thing of driving cars around fields and realistically just needs to learn road handling, should be something I can show him and let a pre-test instructor do 2 or 3 hours on. I learned in a similar way, passed my test first time after three lessons.

Also, I'd feel a bit odd being classed as a "Sponsor" (they're taking that use of that term from some catholic ceremony aren't they?) for someone older than me!

However, its a lot better structured than I was expecting when it was announced, I'm very glad that a night lesson is required. It does look like they're training beyond the limits of our current test though, so I'd hope it'll be updated to match.

-Chris-

I'm absolutely amazed that people feel they don't need compulsory lessons.

The failure rate in 2009 was 48%. As far back as I can remember it's been over 40%.

It seems to me that this is black and white proof of the failure of the "ah sure it'll be grand" culture to turn out competent drivers.

-Chris-

If better trained drivers lead to lower numbers, and costs, of claims, it would stand to reason that insurance rates will become more competitive.

CiniO

-Chris- wrote: »

If better trained drivers lead to lower numbers, and costs, of claims, it would stand to reason that insurance rates will become more competitive.

Insurance rates won't become more competent in Ireland until the big cartel with price fixing among insurance companies won't disappear.

questionmark?

keithclancy wrote: »

12 lessons at 1 hour per lesson at 30 euros per hour is 360 euros, plus if you pay in advance you get a discount.

What kind of car would you get + insurance, motor tax and maintenence would you get for 360 euros ... the car would have to be free or something.

A lesson for 30euro??? Try between 40 and 60 quid depending on which part of the country you are in.

bladespin

E39MSport wrote: »

A test is a test - thats how.

I learned in a car park in my Father's car and I studied the rules. It's not rocket science.

That's the very problem, you learned what in a carpark? How to drive round a controlled envrionment without interacting with other cars and drivers, different road, weather conditions, oh yeah, you learned a lot :rolleyes:.

If the past couple of winters has shown us anything it's how poor our testing is, the first sign of snow and our roads ground to a halt.

questionmark? Lessons here (Meath) are currently around the €40 mark singly but you can buy 5 for €150, I've seen similar deals around the country.

E39MSport

bladespin wrote: »

That's the very problem, you learned what in a carpark? How to drive round a controlled envrionment without interacting with other cars and drivers, different road, weather conditions, oh yeah, you learned a lot :rolleyes:.

If the past couple of winters has shown us anything it's how poor our testing is, the first sign of snow and our roads ground to a halt.

questionmark? Lessons here (Meath) are currently around the €40 mark singly but you can buy 5 for €150, I've seen similar deals around the country.

To be fair - my comments were made in the context of 12 arbitrary lessons. I have/had no faith in driving instructors ( I know a few ).

I'm all for this new regime. The test needs to be brought in line however.

As for my own driving ability - I feel that I check all the boxes on page one of the EDT link. Those qualities are not limited to driving. I'm a better driver than most of the muppets on our roads.

Fergus

Is there any exceptions to this required 12 lessons?

What about someone say who has held a license in another country [that doesn't have a transfer agreement with Ireland] for 20+ years, that can drive here on an International Permit for up to 12 months anyway.. that would then apply for a provisional in order to do the Irish test?

And where did the magical number 12 come from?