US and Brits to be trained by worlds best !

Utrinque Paratus

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/defence-forces-to-train-us-and-uk-bomb-teams-2586389.html


The Defence Forces is to train American and British bomb disposal teams to deal with the threat from Taliban booby traps in Afghanistan.

And teams from other countries are arriving here in the coming months to learn techniques from the Army's Ordnance Corps, which is seen as having the most experienced and professional bomb disposal skills in the world.


...............Skills exchange vists are normal, the worlds most experienced claim is BS, and pretty insulting to those out there doing it in Afghanistan for real, people like this guy.


http://www.army.mod.uk/news/21733.aspx


When Warrant Officer Class 2 Karl Ley, aged 29, of 11 Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps, was disarming bombs and facing death on a daily basis, little did he know his courage and dedication, defusing more bombs than anyone in history, would earn him one of the highest bravery awards.

Karl, aged 29 and who hails from Sheffield, has defused 139 bombs, an amazing feat which has earned him the George Medal for conspicuous gallantry. Many of those bombs he defused without the use of a protective bomb suit or robot, often deploying on foot with only what he could carry in his rucksack.

Utrinque Paratus

I dont know how its claimed the Irish army leads the way in anti IED techniques ?

As far as I know Irish army infantry units have no counter IED capability on vehicles and armour.

http://www.economist.com/node/15582147

Discovering IEDs, however, is not enough; they must then be neutralised. Robots can move them and place explosives to blow them up. But many robots are too big and heavy to be carried by soldiers on foot. QinetiQ, a British firm which makes the widely used Talon robot (pictured above), has a new lightweight back-packable version called Dragon Runner. It costs more than $150,000.
An alternative is to zap an IED with a laser. The Laser Avenger, which is being developed by Boeing, is a vehicle-mounted system that can slowly heat explosive material from several hundred metres. This can eventually cause a bomb to explode, but with less than half of its usual force.


BAE Systems, a British defence firm, is devising an alternative. It uses a vehicle-mounted camera, object-recognition software and satellite positioning to create detailed 3-D maps of roads, pinpointing features such as pot-holes. When vehicles subsequently pass along the same road the system can spot any new features, such as a rubbish heap or anything else that might hide a bomb. James Baker of BAE, who is working on the project, says defeating IEDs is now the operational priority for Britain’s defence ministry.

Many explosives are made of volatile compounds that readily release particles into the air. Equipment that can sniff these vapours could help find bombs. Lynntech, a company based in Texas, is working on a hand-held sniffer which is expected to cost about $20,000 when it is ready in about three years. It uses a small spectrometer to bounce infrared light off particles in the sample. By analysing the wavelengths of the reflected light it can identify specific chemicals. The company plans to fit these sniffers on airborne drones, too

Raging_Ninja

The army has lots of experience with bombs and IEDs from the Troubles.

The army bomb disposal team is still called out a couple of hundred times a year to deal with real and suspected devices, as well as ordnance left over from both world wars.

And as the Independent's article points out, we have a team of 7 bomb disposal experts in Kabul analyzing IEDs for ISAF.

Is it impossible that we can have a good bomb disposal unit?

Edit: Also, from the article:

The ISAF counter-IED programme was largely developed by Irish ordnance officers who have had continuous experience in dealing with improvised bombs throughout the Troubles in the North as well as in Lebanon.

Many of the techniques used by the Taliban and before that the insurgents in Iraq are directly evolved from IRA bomb makers who shared their techniques with the Hezbollah in Lebanon who, in turn, passed them on to their masters in Iran.

The Iranians are known to have passed on much of the technology of improvised bombs and their use to the Taliban

Now I know the Independent is a tabloid rag, but still its like you only looked at the first couple of paragraphs and went on a rant about how useless the Irish defense forces are and how everyone else is better, just like in the Jadotville thread.

Wicklowrider

Utrinque Paratus, we get it.

You don't rate the PDF. Cool. Stick to reading brit versions of star,sun and telegraph and you'll be fine.

BTW - re your user name, how'd your para service go?

Utrinque Paratus

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Utrinque Paratus, we get it.

You don't rate the PDF. Cool. Stick to reading brit versions of star,sun and telegraph and you'll be fine.

BTW - re your user name, how'd your para service go?

I dont rate them as the worlds most experienced and professional counter IED unit, do you ?

Raging_Ninja

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

Good and worlds best are very different claims.

I dont rate them as the worlds most experienced and professional counter IED unit, do you ?

Not many armies in the world have 40+ continuous years of experience with IEDs.

Utrinque Paratus

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Not many armies in the world have 40+ continuous years of experience with IEDs.

98% of IEDs in Ireland were in the north. The British dealt with them.


IED experience, yes, but no expereince in Iraq where the IED came of age.


I dont dispute they are a professional and highly skilled unit.

But "worlds most experienced and professional" claims are total bs.

delta720

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

98% of IEDs in Ireland were in the north. The British dealt with them.

That's a very interesting statistic, I'd love to read the article you referenced it from.

Utrinque Paratus

delta720 wrote: »

That's a very interesting statistic, I'd love to read the article you referenced it from.

A fraction were in the republic, it was most likely nearer to 99% in the north. I was being generous.


This is a list of bombings that took place during (and were linked to) the Northern Ireland "Troubles". It includes bombings that took place in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Great Britain from 1969 up to the present day. There were at least 10,000 bomb attacks during the conflict (1969–1998).[1]


List of major bombings during troubles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles

delta720

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

A fraction were in the republic, it was most likely nearer to 99% in the north. I was being generous.


List of major bombings during troubles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles

They're bombs that exploded, I'd be inclined to think that the majority of bomb disposal in the South was on discovered ordinance as opposed to planted bombs. I get your point though, and also that article is ridiculous, but it just shows bad journalism where as you seem to have taken personal insult at the DFs being given any praise over the BA or US Army.

It would be very interesting to see the level of DFs EOD during the Troubles, all I remember is the odd bomb scare in Dundalk when I was a kid.

Utrinque Paratus

quote but it just shows bad journalism where as you seem to have taken personal insult at the DFs being given any praise over the BA or US Army.


I just dont like Bs claims, thats all.

Steyr

Wicklowrider wrote: »

BTW - re your user name, how'd your para service go?

Utrinque Paratus you seem to have posted to a few replies here but dodged the above, care to explain?

R.Dub.Fusilier

there is no point in trying to reason with U.P. at all . he has a bee in his bonnet with the Irish DF and all the facts in the world wont change his mind. the Irish DF have an experienced bomb squad which has been proven with dealing with terrorist treats and bombs while on UN duties . wikpedia dont have all the facts and is as reliable as the sun newspaper.end of story.

Manic Moran

Regardless of what the independent says, I find it very hard to believe that the irish EOD team is as up to speed on modern bombs as the US teams. IEDs have been evolving rapidly for the last decade, and what was faced in Northern Ireland is not the same as what is faced today. Also, the Irish Times did a 'by name' rundown on the Irish contingent a year or two ago, only one or two were in the counter IED department.

Not to say that there aren't fundamental principles which are common throughout all bombs, and I'm sure that both the Irish EOD teams have been reading the reports and that they have some knowledge worth learning, but on an overall basis, I'd rather have a US route clearance team on my route than an Irish one.

NTM

Rawhead

I think it is us wrapping ourselves in the green flag on this occasion. How in the name of God can we have anything close to the experience of the UK and US forces over the last 10 years.
The DF lads are no doubt good and gained experience during the troubles but with the advancements in IED technology they are years behind at this stage.

We are fond of slagging the brits about claiming the "worlds greatest title" at everything but we are not averse at it ourselves. It's like claiming the Rangers are the worlds most elite SF unit (which regularly happens in the press). They are a good unit who are well trained and well equipped but the reality is they cannot be compared to the UK, US ,Israelis.

If we are going to get pissed off at other country's making unfounded claims about themselves we have to be mature enough to do the same when it happens here.

krissovo

What I suspect is happening rather than full on training is they are performing up to date theater briefings and orientation to new arrivals freeing up the British and US assets in the main combat areas. I also suspect that are working with non EOD search troops in basic search principles and running awareness programs.

xflyer

There is absolutely no need for the attitude UT. It's a newspaper article to be taken with a pinch of salt. Clearly you have a bee in your bonnet about the Irish defence forces. Yeah, yeah we all know they're not the best in the world. But you seem to object when they get any kind of praise at all. The Jadotville thread being an example. What exactly is your problem with that? Presumably you also get testy when the British or some other army gets undue praise for their exploits or is just us Irish?

The fact is, bomb disposal teams are coming here to exchange knowledge and techniques. To the benefit of both sides. Not only that they are experienced and good at what they do. Not the most experienced and maybe not the best in the world but they have something to offer no doubt.

If you don't like poor journalism then write to the Independant and complain instead of using their zealousness to beat up on the defence forces again.

One of things I hate on this boards generally is the attitude of some Irish, usually those with still clinging to the old IRA mentality, where they they cannot stand the British getting any praise at all and object to any pride their people take in the armed forces.

Here we have the reverse of that and it's even less defensible.

Rawhead

xflyer wrote: »

There is absolutely no need for the attitude UT. It's a newspaper article to be taken with a pinch of salt. Clearly you have a bee in your bonnet about the Irish defence forces. Yeah, yeah we all know they're not the best in the world. But you seem to object when they get any kind of praise at all. The Jadotville thread being an example. What exactly is your problem with that? Presumably you also get testy when the British or some other army gets undue praise for their exploits or is just us Irish?

The fact is, bomb disposal teams are coming here to exchange knowledge and techniques. To the benefit of both sides. Not only that they are experienced and good at what they do. Not the most experienced and maybe not the best in the world but they have something to offer no doubt.

If you don't like poor journalism then write to the Independant and complain instead of using their zealousness to beat up on the defence forces again.

One of things I hate on this boards generally is the attitude of some Irish, usually those with still clinging to the old IRA mentality, where they they cannot stand the British getting any praise at all and object to any pride their people take in the armed forces.

Here we have the reverse of that and it's even less defensible.

What was wrong with an article stating "Irish troops have used their many years of experience to help train coalition troops in Afghanistan", that would have been just as eye catching and it would have been accurate.

You can say its self hating paddys all you want but its a rag paper, a sh1te journalist and an untrue headline. I have the utmost respect for our country and our DF but just cause the OP might have an ulterior motive to his post doesn't mean he's telling untruths.

We have a small defence force who do a excellent job with a small budget and an indifferent public, but we are not the worlds best at anything.

BigDuffman

I've always wondered what papers that boardsies actually read..every paper tends to get garnished with the same "Rag" title (I agree with the sun & star). Do we all read the FT?

Back on topic. Everyone seems to have a bee in their bonnet on both sides of argument. I am not member of the EOD. Closest thing I've seen to an IED is a black cat at halloween so I do not feel qualified to make any concise statements (so sweeping generalizations for all).

I do not see how the Irish EOD can have nearly as much experience as the US / BA teams. Not debating the professional nature of all involved, but the counterparts are over in Afghan and Iraq and deal with stuff that goes boom on a regular basis in the middle of a warzone.

The Irish EOD get 100s of call outs a year. Many of which are elaborate hoaxes, like the one this morning, there has also been an increase of scumbags trying to kill each other too. Irregardless of this, they do a fantastic job as I'm sure every incident has the same lead up as if it were the real deal. Balls of steel on those boys.

I reckon down to bad reporting, a case of a skills exchange with the others being hosted by ourselves. As opposed to Irish EOD "showing them how its done.

Utrinque Paratus

Steyr wrote: »

Utrinque Paratus you seem to have posted to a few replies here but dodged the above, care to explain?

Very well thankyou.

7 Para RHA.F "Sphinx" Battery.

What would you care to know ?

Utrinque Paratus

Manic Moran wrote: »

Regardless of what the independent says, I find it very hard to believe that the irish EOD team is as up to speed on modern bombs as the US teams. IEDs have been evolving rapidly for the last decade, and what was faced in Northern Ireland is not the same as what is faced today. Also, the Irish Times did a 'by name' rundown on the Irish contingent a year or two ago, only one or two were in the counter IED department.

Not to say that there aren't fundamental principles which are common throughout all bombs, and I'm sure that both the Irish EOD teams have been reading the reports and that they have some knowledge worth learning, but on an overall basis, I'd rather have a US route clearance team on my route than an Irish one.

NTM

This is my point, but according to those who claim to be in the defence force on boards like Irish, military on line, they are the most experienced in the world.

I dont dispute they are professional and good at what they do but claiming more experience then the Brits and Yanks is ridiculous.


Where does their experience of dealing with multi-chain IEDs come from?

They were not in Iraq. Nor the Lebannon for yrs.

I suspect they are holding an international C-IED conference like the one the Irish attended in London last yr, this becomes, "defence forces training Yanks and Brits", and another BS myth is created.

Rawhead

BigDuffman wrote: »

I've always wondered what papers that boardsies actually read..every paper tends to get garnished with the same "Rag" title (I agree with the sun & star). Do we all read the FT?

The Daily Sport.

Its commitment to fair, in-depth coverage of world affairs and an ever changing geopolitical middle east leave it in a class of its own. At this very moment its fearless reporters are imbedded on the front line of numerous conflicts and its legendary dedication to getting at the truth no matter what the cost has seen it receive countless Pulitzers.

My definition of a "rag" newspaper is any publication that would have Eoghan Harris within an asses roar of it.

PatsytheNazi

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/defence-forces-to-train-us-and-uk-bomb-teams-2586389.html


The Defence Forces is to train American and British bomb disposal teams to deal with the threat from Taliban booby traps in Afghanistan.

And teams from other countries are arriving here in the coming months to learn techniques from the Army's Ordnance Corps, which is seen as having the most experienced and professional bomb disposal skills in the world.


...............Skills exchange vists are normal, the worlds most experienced claim is BS, and pretty insulting to those out there doing it in Afghanistan for real, people like this guy.


http://www.army.mod.uk/news/21733.aspx


When Warrant Officer Class 2 Karl Ley, aged 29, of 11 Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps, was disarming bombs and facing death on a daily basis, little did he know his courage and dedication, defusing more bombs than anyone in history, would earn him one of the highest bravery awards.

Karl, aged 29 and who hails from Sheffield, has defused 139 bombs, an amazing feat which has earned him the George Medal for conspicuous gallantry. Many of those bombs he defused without the use of a protective bomb suit or robot, often deploying on foot with only what he could carry in his rucksack.

I see the article is by Jim Cusack of Sir Tony's comic the Irish Independent. The guy's a bigger fantascist that even Paul Williams. Since the Americans and co. are diffusing IED's by the day, I don't think they'd need us.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

This is my point, but according to those who claim to be in the defence force on boards like Irish, military on line, they are the most experienced in the world.

I dont dispute they are professional and good at what they do but claiming more experience then the Brits and Yanks is ridiculous.


Where does their experience of dealing with multi-chain IEDs come from?

They were not in Iraq. Nor the Lebannon for yrs.

I suspect they are holding an international C-IED conference like the one the Irish attended in London last yr, this becomes, "defence forces training Yanks and Brits", and another BS myth is created.

its not your opinion that is the problem. its the way you express your opinion that is the problem. the Irish DF are no longer the "dads army" they used to be in days gone by. you point the blame at the ordinary Irish soldier as if he is writing the article and not the papers or the army brass.

your opinion of the Irish DF is the real BS

Utrinque Paratus

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

its not your opinion that is the problem. its the way you express your opinion that is the problem. the Irish DF are no longer the "dads army" they used to be in days gone by. you point the blame at the ordinary Irish soldier as if he is writing the article and not the papers or the army brass.

your opinion of the Irish DF is the real BS

Lol, deal the issue dont try and create a straw man.

Manic Moran

It's no straw man.

I give people a lot of lattitude on this forum, I strongly dislike strong-handed moderation. However, if you insist on doing nothing but express dislike/disrespect for an armed force as a primary objective, you can expect some sanction in the near future. Ask Patsy.

NTM

Utrinque Paratus

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's no straw man.

I give people a lot of lattitude on this forum, I strongly dislike strong-handed moderation. However, if you insist on doing nothing but express dislike/disrespect for an armed force as a primary objective, you can expect some sanction in the near future. Ask Patsy.

NTM

Can you PM or post the quote where I have shown disrespect ?


I actually Stated the PDFs EOD Unit was professional at with their role.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71263842&postcount=7
Many thanks.

Utrinque Paratus

IngazZagni

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

Can you PM or post the quote where I have shown disrespect ?

I thought you showed disrespect just by reading the sarcastic nature of the thread title.

Also do you have hands on experience with these guys or are you making opinionated points based on your own theories?

Utrinque Paratus

IngazZagni wrote: »

I thought you showed disrespect just by reading the sarcastic nature of the thread title.

Also do you have hands on experience with these guys or are you making opinionated points based on your own theories?

I quoted the claim of the newspaper article.

the whole point of internet discussion sites is debate.

If people only want to hear agreeable opinions and nod inagreement and those who dissent from that get banned thats a poor show.

IngazZagni

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

I quoted the claim of the newspaper article.

the whole point of internet discussion sites is debate.

If people only want to hear agreeable opinions and nod inagreement and those who dissent from that get banned thats a poor show.

The thread title was not a quote, it was a paraphrase and an inaccurate one at that.

And hold your horses with that other nonsense. You asked a question and I answered it and then I asked a question asking you to add legitimacy to your opinion. I just wanted to question it as is what you do in a debate no? No one here is preventing anyone giving their opinions so don't jump to conclusions.

Manic Moran

I quoted the claim of the newspaper article.

I apologise, you generally did. Combined with your contributions over on the Jadotville thread, I, like others, it would appear, took it as being a bit of a go at the DF.

it was a paraphrase and an inaccurate one at that

In fairness, "the Army's Ordnance Corps, which is seen as having the most experienced and professional bomb disposal skills in the world." is pretty close. Of course, 'experienced and professional' does not necessarily mean 'competent', but it's a fairly reasonable inference.

NTM

SamuelFox

In my humble opinion, this story, like so many others, is an example of the DF PR machine at work - not neccessarily the Press Office, but the culture of self praise that is so prevalent in the Defence Forces. I don’t believe for a second that the reporter in question came up with that line himself –that came from the DF, and whether it was a briefing from one of the legions of spokespeople they have, or a reflection of a belief commonly held in the DF it still originated in a black hat somewhere.

I object to “big timing” – military organisations boasting rather than improving themselves. However, I’m also an Irish taxpayer, and a former member of the DF, and that’s why I object more strongly to issues like this. In the Irish context “Big timing” becomes a substitute for self evaluation and improvement. When the DF reads in the press that they are the best in the world at C-IED, or that the ARW is the model for SF, or that the Air Corps will be in harms way in Libya, it means that the status quo will continue and the complacency will never change.

Also, just to head off some criticism that is undoubtedly coming my way - I don’t like this attitude here with some posters where anything less than praise of the DF is written off as having a chip on shoulder or whatever. In my opinion this is an anonymous bulletin board for a reason, and we should play the ball, not the player. If someone makes a comment here, I’ll treat it with the respect it deserves – as a sincerely held opinion, regardless of what I perceive is their motivation. In the same vein, I’d like to see those of us that haven’t the rosy eyed view of the DF given the same respect. Otherwise the debate goes nowhere.

Poccington

SamuelFox wrote: »

In my humble opinion, this story, like so many others, is an example of the DF PR machine at work - not neccessarily the Press Office, but the culture of self praise that is so prevalent in the Defence Forces. I don’t believe for a second that the reporter in question came up with that line himself –that came from the DF, and whether it was a briefing from one of the legions of spokespeople they have, or a reflection of a belief commonly held in the DF it still originated in a black hat somewhere.

I read it as a journo losing the run of themselves, or else being just plain lazy, rather than the DFPO telling porkies.

I don't think any sane member of the DF would make a claim like that. It's blatantly obvious we aren't the worlds best, the best are the ones rocking around A'Stan doing the business.

However, I would say our Ordnance lads are obviously doing something right if we're running International Courses and having members of our Ordnance Corps made Chief C-IED Officer with ISAF.

xflyer

Samuel, if anyone here has a rosy tabloid view of the DF, then I haven't seen it. Those serving or ex members have to have a realistic view. But you cannot have a situation where member constantly take a negative view of their job.

In my opinion the article and one or two others where the DF is painted in glowing terms are merely a reaction and an attempt to copy the British media and American media who support 'our boys' on an ongoing business. It's a little misguided as the Irish army is not at war. But it's harmless enough as long as members of the DF don't believe it either.

It certainly makes a change from usual slagging the Defence Forces get. I tend to think there's a bit of that in the OPs contribution. It really isn't fair to compare the army unfavourably against two of the best and most experienced militaries in the world.

Tenger

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

This is my point, but according to those who claim to be in the defence force on boards like Irish, military on line, they are the most experienced in the world.

I dont dispute they are professional and good at what they do but claiming more experience then the Brits and Yanks is ridiculous.

I see your point but no-one on boards.ie claimed they were "the best in the World". I certainly wouldn't.

The Irish Independent made this claim, and anyone who has read this on more than a handful of times will realise that they are a dressed up tabloid. Their headlines are ludicrous. They usually have a biased opinion in their articles without even trying to disguise it (They also seem to write articles without even a quick reference to wikipedia to check their 'facts)

So why not point your vitriol at the newspaper rather then the DF who were misrepresented by this article.

I would hazard that the DF can and will learn a lot from the cross-pollination with the UK/US forces. On the other hand some of the Irish procedures/checks may well be helpful to the US/UK. Each army does things differently but any professional organisation would not be afraid to copy an efficient/alternative method if it will improve their own capabilites. I'm not claiming that the UK/US will do this as I'm sure their IED procedures have been honed to razor sharpness over the last 8 years.

I read the Irish Times by choice but usually look at the Indo as its always lying around at work. The FT is often good for international geo-political news.

Wicklowrider

SamuelFox wrote: »

“Big timing” becomes a substitute for self evaluation and improvement. When the DF reads in the press that they are the best in the world at C-IED, or that the ARW is the model for SF, or that the Air Corps will be in harms way in Libya, it means that the status quo will continue and the complacency will never change.

Air Corp crew interviewed on Six One news made a BIG point of saying they would ONLY enter Libyan airspace after Diplomatic mission secured permission and they were 100% certain that passengers, diplomats and crew were guaranteed safe passage - clip was replayed several times on T.V and radio. I've googled the story and see no evidence of " Harm's Way" claim? ( what a horrible Fox News type expression btw).

You can self evaluate till the cows come home but in EOD evaluation is on the job, is real time and is either pass or fail. Pass and you keep all your limbs and return to barracks - fail and ..... er, not sure really because I haven't seen Irish EOD fail.

Who claimed ARW were the model for SF? Some faceless internet poster? Some journalist in the business of selling papers?