why don't the people rebel?

davoxx

seeing as all the rebelling going on in the world ...

why don't americans/ great britons rebel against the system?
when their government went into an illegal war, nobody rebelled.
when the banking crisis happened and nobody was jailed, nobody rebelled.

is there a false belief that justice will happen by them or do the believe that there is no reason to rebel?

or is it all the material wealth that we have that keeps us in line?

when is enough enough?

speaking on the irish pov, i thought people did not rebel because of the election. but now since we have fg and labour effectively (in my opinion) being the new ff, with little change and crippling the public with private debt, i am baffled as to why we are not storming onto o'connell street demanding justice.


just thought i'd ask?

(maybe i should say my rebelling is peaceful protests - not violence)

PatricaMcKay

davoxx wrote: »

speaking on the irish pov, i thought people did not rebel because of the election. but now since we have fg and labour effectively (in my opinion) being the new ff, with little change and crippling the public with private debt, i am baffled as to why we are not storming onto o'connell street demanding justice.


just thought i'd ask?

If are going to rebel you have to be ready to make the ultimate sacrifice and also have an idea of what you want to put in the system's place.

davoxx

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

If are going to rebel you have to be ready to make the ultimate sacrifice and also have an idea of what you want to put in the system's place.

what is the ultimate sacrifice? do you mean one's life?

Aka Ishur

I am slightly baffled at the thought of someone thinking that the level of Irish 'suffering' warrants being put on the same level as peoples who suffer under a dictatorship, where political murder, 'disappearances', punishment beatings, and torture are used as a weapon. These people haven't had a choice as to who leads them for over 40 years, if ever in some states. Irish, UK and US citizens have that choice between local, national, and EU elections every few years. A vast majority of this country chose the government we have now. If you don't agree with the results you can campaign for a seat in 5 years time. Thats freedom.

wingsof daun

Many question is it worth making this sacrifice. Many think they simply must live my the rule of their religion, for example, say their prayers, and they are proud of what they are achieveing, and are confident their soul will be saved so they see no need to make great sacrifice for their country. Of course, there are many atheists in modern Ireland, but they seem to just trust the powers that be to keep them fed and provide them with a decent standard of living.

PatricaMcKay

davoxx wrote: »

what is the ultimate sacrifice? do you mean one's life?

Yes.

omen80

Because we live in a democratic country where we have it pretty good to be fair.....compared to Libya for example.
It probably takes quite a bit to get most people out onto the streets. Although, I do recall hearing about a few protests over the last year alone......it's only really when there is trouble at them that they make the news.

Einhard

davoxx wrote: »

seeing as all the rebelling going on in the world ...

why don't americans/ great britons rebel against the system?
when their government went into an illegal war, nobody rebelled.
when the banking crisis happened and nobody was jailed, nobody rebelled.

is there a false belief that justice will happen by them or do the believe that there is no reason to rebel?

or is it all the material wealth that we have that keeps us in line?

when is enough enough?

speaking on the irish pov, i thought people did not rebel because of the election. but now since we have fg and labour effectively (in my opinion) being the new ff, with little change and crippling the public with private debt, i am baffled as to why we are not storming onto o'connell street demanding justice.


just thought i'd ask?

(maybe i should say my rebelling is peaceful protests - not violence)

Because most people aren't fascists, and as non-fascists tend to accept the will of the people as expressed through the ballot box. Even when they disagree with the outcome. Pretty simple really.

You're not a fascist are you?

jimmycrackcorm

[QUOTE=davoxx;71253401
speaking on the irish pov, i thought people did not rebel because of the election. but now since we have fg and labour effectively (in my opinion) being the new ff, with little change and crippling the public with private debt, i am baffled as to why we are not storming onto o'connell street demanding justice.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps because people know how lucky they have it - If we wanted to refuse the crippling debt then we'd have to cut back social welfare and public services payments to affordable levels so as not to bother.

PatricaMcKay

Einhard wrote: »

Because most people aren't fascists, and as non-fascists tend to accept the will of the people as expressed through the ballot box. Even when they disagree with the outcome. Pretty simple really.

Okay, what percentage of the population of the 26 counties actually votes? And of those who do vote how many vote for those they see as the best of the worst as opposed to wholely agreeing with? How much does the media and very wealthy financial backers determine the results of the elections? If the will of the people is so perfectly expressed why do so many people feel utterly powerless in Ireland?

Wolfe Tone

OP, there has been decades of rebellion in the north

Einhard

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Okay, what percentage of the population of the 26 counties actually votes? And of those who do vote how many vote for those they see as the best of the worst as opposed to wholely agreeing with? How much does the media and very wealthy financial backers determine the results of the elections? If the will of the people is so perfectly expressed why do so many people feel utterly powerless in Ireland?

I'm not stating that the will of citizens is perfectly expressed; that hasn't been possible since 5th century Athens. However, the electorate had clear choices in the last election. They could have voted for those advocating a renunciation of the bailout, ala SF and the ULA, but they didn't. They could have chosen a FG majority but they didn't. To suggest, after a general election in which people made a decision, that that decision should be forcibly overturned is fascist in my opinion. It advocates the violent overthrow of the democratic will.

Also, it doesn't matter how many of the electorate actually vote, so long as everyone has the chance to vote. One can't choose not to exercise one's mandate, and then turn around and claim that the result isn't democratic because of it! For what it's worth though, slightly over 70% of the electorate voted, which is high in historical terms.

BKtje

davoxx wrote: »

what is the ultimate sacrifice? do you mean one's life?

I would of thought that the ultimate sacrifice would be the loss of ones friends and family and being willing to accept that as a possibility.

It's very easy to give up one's life for a cause (well relatively) but much harder to accept that because of your actions that your friends and loved ones may pay a price as well.

Comparing the suffering of the people in Ireland and the suffering of the people in the middle east is ludicrous in my opinion.

davoxx

see they way i saw it was that people 'think' that they have choice - take america ... do the people actually vote for their president? if not why not? is yes, then why did bush win?

we have a fake sense of justice in the courts, how many times has the court done something immoral, but not illegal? and how many times does the law not protect the vulnerable ie the poor? was the courts original goal to prevent rich people killing each other over disputes.

is it really a fair choice when the options are not wanted by the person?

and regarding ultimate sacrifice - i thought that that would be the future generations freedom and happiness? or the planet (in the sense all life)? one's own life just seems a bit selfish to me.

they are just random points ... but i do understand peoples motivation will be different.

from my own pov - i know a lot more people are getting depressed and feeling so powerless, suicide is on the increase (or maybe we just hear about it more), people are leaving ireland because they don't think things will change.

and i'm not comparing the suffering of any two groups of people, as that's relative ... i'm just asking when do people say enough is enough? how far in the corner do the people have to be to rebel?

also when does protesting become rebelling?

metrovelvet

The unemployment rates arent high enough yet. When you have a nation full of poverty and anger and alot of time on their hands, due to not having jobs you will see an uprising, that is if they havent emigrated first.

davoxx

metrovelvet wrote: »

The unemployment rates arent high enough yet. When you have a nation full of poverty and anger and alot of time on their hands, due to not having jobs you will see an uprising, that is if they havent emigrated first.

so is it all the material wealth that we have that keeps us in line.

i might emigrated so

ilovesleep

I cannot believe how there isn't mass protests to demand justice and a fair ireland. People responsible for getting us here would include:
FF
Bankers
The financial regulator
Developers
The people (some on boards would argue this, I would argue against it because at the end of the day its not the citizens responsiblity to run the country and keep a healthy economy). Our ex government were put in a job to do a job and they failed and tried to pass the buck to the nation as if it was our responsibity to do their jobs. It was the Bertie Ahern government that ruined Ireland. And then it was the Brian Cowen government that made it worse - selling us to the banks.

So anyone please tell me why is it only the people of this country paying the price?

We see FF politicians with fat pensions. Bankers received bonuses.The ex fianancial regulator retired with a fat pension.Developers bailed out.The people wheather or not bought a property, voted ff - sent all the bills.

Why are people happy with this?

omen80

davoxx wrote: »

see they way i saw it was that people 'think' that they have choice - take america ... do the people actually vote for their president? if not why not? is yes, then why did bush win?

I could be wrong here but I think Bush got in because he topped the majority of the 50 states, even though technically he didn't get the most votes from the population as a whole? There could be more people living in New York for example over Texas.....

The same applies here, our government will be decided by the majority of seats they win from 166.......not by the amount of votes they get from the 26 counties in total.

COYW

Aka Ishur wrote: »

I am slightly baffled at the thought of someone thinking that the level of Irish 'suffering' warrants being put on the same level as peoples who suffer under a dictatorship, where political murder, 'disappearances', punishment beatings, and torture are used as a weapon.

Totally. Some Irish people have really lost the plot. I have come across a few people, in my everyday life, mentioning that the cost of re-financing the banks here will exceed that of re-building Japan. You just get the feeling that they think we are worse off than the Japanese people by the way they say it.

Taking the countries debt into account, Ireland is still a very very good place to live. I travel a lot for work and when you see more of the world, you realize how lucky we are here. We don't have a clue about real poverty or hardship. People here consider not being able to afford to go on holidays as a sign of poverty!!

metrovelvet

omen80 wrote: »

I could be wrong here but I think Bush got in because he topped the majority of the 50 states, even though technically he didn't get the most votes from the population as a whole? There could be more people living in New York for example over Texas.....

The same applies here, our government will be decided by the majority of seats they win from 166.......not by the amount of votes they get from the 26 counties in total.

Its also because the US has a two party system.

When you have for example a multi party system, one party might get the most votes, but then add up the voters who DIDNT vote for that party and it might out number it but that party will still win the election.

shadowcomplex

This could do it

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/03/09/keep-an-eye-on-your-savings-you-can-be-sure-the-state-is

ilovesleep

Aka Ishur wrote: »

I am slightly baffled at the thought of someone thinking that the level of Irish 'suffering' warrants being put on the same level as peoples who suffer under a dictatorship, where political murder, 'disappearances', punishment beatings, and torture are used as a weapon. These people haven't had a choice as to who leads them for over 40 years, if ever in some states. Irish, UK and US citizens have that choice between local, national, and EU elections every few years. A vast majority of this country chose the government we have now. If you don't agree with the results you can campaign for a seat in 5 years time. Thats freedom.

To dismiss our problems because there are other problems in the world is sheer stupidity. We were sold to the banks. To roll around in such abuse is like saying: EXPLOIT ME MORE

This nation was exploited twice: 1)from the catholic church, 2) from the ff maggot government. There is nothing to stop another organisation from exploiting us in the future

davoxx

COYW wrote: »

Totally. Some Irish people have really lost the plot. I have come across a few people, in my everyday life, mentioning that the cost of re-financing the banks here will exceed that of re-building Japan. You just get the feeling that they think we are worse off than the Japanese people by the way they say it.

Taking the countries debt into account, Ireland is still a very very good place to live. I travel a lot for work and when you see more of the world, you realize how lucky we are here. We don't have a clue about real poverty or hardship. People here consider not being able to afford to go on holidays as a sign of poverty!!

the tsunami was nobody's fault (i hope) but once they build back up the country, they'll do fine. so i'd say that is irrelevant.

metrovelvet

COYW wrote: »

Totally. Some Irish people have really lost the plot. I have come across a few people, in my everyday life, mentioning that the cost of re-financing the banks here will exceed that of re-building Japan. You just get the feeling that they think we are worse off than the Japanese people by the way they say it.

Taking the countries debt into account, Ireland is still a very very good place to live. I travel a lot for work and when you see more of the world, you realize how lucky we are here. We don't have a clue about real poverty or hardship. People here consider not being able to afford to go on holidays as a sign of poverty!!

The Irish don't have a clue about real poverty? Are you kidding me?

Everytime I drive on a country road in the west I can imagine the emaciated bodies of the famine walking and dying on them.

Have you ever read anything about the Dublin tenements?

mufcboy1999

people in dublin should take a look outside dublin the country is nothing like the capital, dublin is a real European city while the rest of us get fu*k all.

irish dont rebel because we are too soft and lazy as a nation end of.

we are a mini america.

old hippy

metrovelvet wrote: »

The Irish don't have a clue about real poverty? Are you kidding me?

Everytime I drive on a country road in the west I can imagine the emaciated bodies of the famine walking and dying on them.

Have you ever read anything about the Dublin tenements?

Indeed. But I imagine the poster is referring to the majority of today's people, who up until very recently, never had it so good.

Maybe what we endure is a poverty of ideas; hence the political merry go round that we find ourselves stuck with?

davoxx

old hippy wrote: »

Indeed. But I imagine the poster is referring to the majority of today's people, who up until very recently, never had it so good.

in what why did we have it so good (not trying to disagree) i know we had improvements, but i'd never say we ha it good. we worked hard, paid a lot and did not see a great return - hospitals were always crap, public transport a joke, education was just a money making scheme.

i really see it personally as instead having one flat bald tyre rather than two, sure it's better, but not good.

would that be a fair comment?

metrovelvet

old hippy wrote: »

Indeed. But I imagine the poster is referring to the majority of today's people, who up until very recently, never had it so good.

Maybe what we endure is a poverty of ideas; hence the political merry go round that we find ourselves stuck with?

I think there is a poverty of a sense of rights and entitlements. I notice in this country the concept of rights is very fluid. You have the right to vote if you are living in the country, which is revoked if you leave. You have the right to citizenship if you are born here but only if your parents are also citizens. You have the right to citizenship if you are Northern Irish but you cant vote in the republic because well...the North is only Ireland sometimes...but you can run for election if you want. You have the right to be a father but that right can be taken away for bad behavior...you have the right to return to Ireland but dont ask for any help. The diaspora is not our problem. You have the right to free speech as long as it doesnt offend the wrong people.

There is no sense of standing shoulder to shoulder and facing things together as a country and improving things for the up coming generations and for the nation as a whole.

Spacedog

Who exactly should be rebelling?

The working class, who were screwed over during the boom, through social partnership, high competition for work from over seas. never saw the benefits of the boom time. even in business office work. people were taking home slightly more than minimum wage working desk jobs and in call centres etc.

The upperclass, keep their tax breaks, and are entirely unaffected by the decline. They live a comfortable life and are happy to ride out the ripples in the economy, happy to move elsewhere and retire rather than pay their share (Eg. Bono).

Really the people who should rebel are the middle class people with jobs in middle management, exploit the hard work of others. invest in property to exploit the poor who couldn't afford to buy. those people saw their investment down down the toilet and are the most angry, but ironically they contributed greatly to the underlying cause of the trouble by voting FF into government clearly to protect an overinflated economy based on an unsustainable property market. these people are also used to referring to anyone passionate enough to hold a placard and take part in a peaceful protest, as homeless, dole sponging, hippy scum due to their inherent social autism.

So basically the only people directly affected by the financial crisis (who weren't already being screwed over) haven't the balls to rebel. - stop me if I'm wrong.

ilovesleep

metrovelvet wrote: »

The Irish don't have a clue about real poverty? Are you kidding me?

Everytime I drive on a country road in the west I can imagine the emaciated bodies of the famine walking and dying on them.

Have you ever read anything about the Dublin tenements?

You are very wrong - let me tell you that.
My father left my mother when i and my siblings were young. the family home was caving in at one stage, with no kitchen. It was only within the past 3 to 4 years since we came on our feet that we were all able to chip in money towards doing up the house. We lived there for 20 years before we were able to do that. As teenagers we lived on bread, butter and cheese every day for lunch. To this day cheese makes us sick.

Im sure we weren't the only family that lived in dire circumstances while others were rolling in cash.

To some degree our up bringing was good. We learned the value of money and didn't lose the run of ourselves and have no debts.

Aka Ishur

davoxx wrote: »

in what why did we have it so good (not trying to disagree) i know we had improvements, but i'd never say we ha it good. we worked hard, paid a lot and did not see a great return - hospitals were always crap, public transport a joke, education was just a money making scheme.

i really see it personally as instead having one flat bald tyre rather than two, sure it's better, but not good.

would that be a fair comment?

What are you talking about? How did the Irish not have it good? Pay was astronomical, tax, while not the lowest, was far from the highest in Europe and less than half of what it was. Unemployment was negligible? Denying that we 'had it good' is ridiculous.

And before everyone jumps in. Yes it was unsustainable, i know this, everyone knows this. To deny that fact that living standards were and for the most part are high and have never been higher is to stick your head in the sand.

davoxx

Aka Ishur wrote: »

What are you talking about? How did the Irish not have it good? Pay was astronomical, tax, while not the lowest, was far from the highest in Europe and less than half of what it was.

pay was not astronomical for me ... i remember it very clearly ... and anytime i got a pay rise, inflation removed most of it.
are you thinking of the pay for the high earners (not just bankers) that went through the roof?

how much did a grad make in 2000 and how much does a grad make (presuming they got a job) now? (i'm really asking as afar as i can tell there is not much difference of the years)

ilovesleep

Poverty is an extreme trap that takes time to come out from. Also many would remember poverty from the 80s recession

Spacedog

With Shannon and the US stopover with regards to the Iraq war. people did rebel. 5 people broke into a hanger in Shannon and decommissioned a fighter et by breaking the nose cone with a lump hammer.

They were branded religious extremest by the Irish media. and subjected to several retrials, several mistrials, under gag orders from the media. one dudge had attended the inauguration of GW Bush and declined to declare it as a possible conflict of interest.

In the end, many years later, they were found not guilty by a jury, under the grounds that they were within their rights as citizens under international human rights law to oppose a war declared illegally.

It was later shown in the wikileaks cables that the US embassy had not been happy with the verdict and considered charging the irish taxpayer, for the cost of the aircraft as to make an example of the jurys decision.

Also in the cables dermot ahearn wryly referred to a search of a suspected CIA rendition plane containing a group of "pro-touring golfers".


_________________________________________________


People have also been rebelling in Mayo regarding aspects of the Shell Corrib Gas project. there is footage of the police beating peaceful protesters, allgeged attacks on protesters, their homes and property, an attempted murder caught on video of a dredging boat attempting to unload rocks and debris directly above the head of a protester in a canoe.


___________________________________________________


I know these examples of rebellion are not what you had in mind. You want a rebellion on your own terms. basically things aren't really that bad... yet. we may have no money, but we have our lives and our health, the land beneath our feet and the sky above out heads. there is no nuclear plant melting down on our doorstep (except Sellafield), no dictators murdering us, we have food air, and water. we have time, if not to work in jobs, to study, create art, music, work in the community.

People rebel when they are at their lowest and need to force change to survive as a people. Ireland is far from that stage despite what you read on boards and see on TV.

Aka Ishur

davoxx wrote: »

pay was not astronomical for me ... i remember it very clearly ... and anytime i got a pay rise, inflation removed most of it.
are you thinking of the pay for the high earners (not just bankers) that went through the roof?

how much did a grad make in 2000 and how much does a grad make (presuming they got a job) now? (i'm really asking as afar as i can tell there is not much difference of the years)

From memory the minimum wage was introduced at £4.10 (lets say 5 euro), this rose to €8.65 (a 73% rise in 10 years), the average industrial wage rose from 25k to 32k, 30% in 10 years. The highest inflation ever got in this country was in and around 5.5% IIRC. Fine if you missed out you missed out. But don't presume everyone else did.


Also for ilovesleep's benefit, poverty in Ireland did drop from 16% to 4% in the years 1994 to 2001. I would be fairly confident it dropped further in the years before the recession, but unfortunately I can't find data to back that up.

Spacedog

Aka Ishur wrote: »

From memory the minimum wage was introduced at £4.10 (lets say 5 euro), this rose to €8.65 (a 73% rise in 10 years), the average industrial wage rose from 25k to 32k, 30% in 10 years. The highest inflation ever got in this country was in and around 5.5% IIRC. Fine if you missed out you missed out. But don't presume everyone else did.

What was the accumulative compound rate of inflation over the 10 period you quoted for the industrial wage?

I'm not saying your numbers are wrong, they are don't make sense to me as they are on different scales.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

OP, there has been decades of rebellion in the north

Been plenty of resistance too.

Jonny7

davoxx wrote: »

seeing as all the rebelling going on in the world ...

why don't americans/ great britons rebel against the system?

We do, we have protests, but our standard of living is amongst the highest in the world - its not Egypt

when their government went into an illegal war, nobody rebelled.

Yes they did, between 1 and 2 million people marched in London, thats an astronomical amount for a lazy apathetic nation

In Dublin, almost 100,000 marched, incredible considering we are the same

when the banking crisis happened and nobody was jailed, nobody rebelled.

Capitalism has its benefits and it has its drawbacks.. this is one of the drawbacks.. its not perfect.

is there a false belief that justice will happen by them or do the believe that there is no reason to rebel?

Apathy, we live in very high standards.

when is enough enough?

When you take a visit to Congo and then realise how much you have to be thankful for

speaking on the irish pov, i thought people did not rebel because of the election. but now since we have fg and labour effectively (in my opinion) being the new ff, with little change and crippling the public with private debt, i am baffled as to why we are not storming onto o'connell street demanding justice.

Apathy and high standard of living.

Have a look at North Korea, its such a controlled vicious society, that they don't even have the option to protest, they don't even know what is going on in the world. Their entire lives from birth to death are dedicated to essentially keeping one man and his family in absolute wealth and luxury.

Lame Lantern

We should rebel against our constitution and system of democracy in order to finally establish a constitution and system of democracy.

Aka Ishur

Spacedog wrote: »

What was the accumulative compound rate of inflation over the 10 period you quoted for the industrial wage?

I'm not saying your numbers are wrong, they are don't make sense to me as they are on different scales.

I don't understand your question. A compound rate as I understand it is accumulative, and the numbers are not on different scales. Minimum wage rose 73% while average industrial wage rose approx 30%.

davoxx

Aka Ishur wrote: »

From memory the minimum wage was introduced at £4.10 (lets say 5 euro), this rose to €8.65 (a 73% rise in 10 years), the average industrial wage rose from 25k to 32k, 30% in 10 years. The highest inflation ever got in this country was in and around 5.5% IIRC. Fine if you missed out you missed out. But don't presume everyone else did.

i don't presume that everybody missed out .. obviously a lot of builders/bankers/etc made a lot.

min wage at €5 relates to a cinema ticket price of €4 (i think) while €8.65 relates to €8.50 ticket price .... i think those figures are close

so sure if you were making 50k and that went to 100k, you were better off, but if you were on 25k and went ot 32k you were as poor as you were before.

Aka Ishur

davoxx wrote: »

i don't presume that everybody missed out .. obviously a lot of builders/bankers/etc made a lot.

min wage at €5 relates to a cinema ticket price of €4 (i think) while €8.65 relates to €8.50 ticket price .... i think those figures are close

so sure if you were making 50k and that went to 100k, you were better off, but if you were on 25k and went ot 32k you were as poor as you were before.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=CPA05.asp&TableName=Purchasing+Power+by+State+and+Year&StatisticalProduct=DB_CP

As you can see from the link above the price of the basket of goods (a measure of real inflation) rose by 22% between 2001 and 2009 , so no, you were not as 'poor' (how do you call that poor?) as before. You were and are, 10% better off.

(2009 is the last year available, 2010 will see a drop of about 2% in the basket price, leaving you with even more purchasing power.)

digme

Aka Ishur wrote: »

I am slightly baffled at the thought of someone thinking that the level of Irish 'suffering' warrants being put on the same level as peoples who suffer under a dictatorship, where political murder, 'disappearances', punishment beatings, and torture are used as a weapon. These people haven't had a choice as to who leads them for over 40 years, if ever in some states. Irish, UK and US citizens have that choice between local, national, and EU elections every few years. A vast majority of this country chose the government we have now. If you don't agree with the results you can campaign for a seat in 5 years time. Thats freedom.

Democracy is an insult to freedom.

Zubeneschamali

ilovesleep wrote: »

This nation was exploited twice: 1)from the catholic church, 2) from the ff maggot government.

Let's not forget the Celts oppressing the Bronze age folks.

Free the Beaker people!

davoxx

Aka Ishur wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=CPA05.asp&TableName=Purchasing+Power+by+State+and+Year&StatisticalProduct=DB_CP

As you can see from the link above the price of the basket of goods (a measure of real inflation) rose by 22% between 2001 and 2009 , so no, you were not as 'poor' (how do you call that poor?) as before. You were and are, 10% better off.

(2009 is the last year available, 2010 will see a drop of about 2% in the basket price, leaving you with even more purchasing power.)

(my maths was wrong - had it in reverse)

purchasing power:
35.82 => 47.33 = 32% gain

VS

wages:
25k => 35k = 40% gain
min wage:
5 => 8.65 = 70% gain

so overall a slight gain, not enough to buy a house, hence all the debt ... so i'd say we are worse off that before as we should have seen a greater increase ...

and just 10% better of is not having it good ... i suppose we are not serfs anymore .. so we've never had it better ... but in that light everyone never has had it better and nobody should complain ... ever ...

we are poor in comparison not to just other countries, but among ourselves, the rich get huge pay, the poor are slightly better off ... take the average .... wow everyone is doing great!!

tell me i missing something?

Liam Byrne

Aka Ishur wrote: »

(2009 is the last year available, 2010 will see a drop of about 2% in the basket price, leaving you with even more purchasing power.)

.....assuming that no-one had a pay cut and you don't factor in the rise in oil prices, insurance and the sickening USC.

Aka Ishur

Liam Byrne wrote: »

.....assuming that no-one had a pay cut and you don't factor in the rise in oil prices, insurance and the sickening USC.

The basket of goods does include these afaik, also it doesn't matter if someone took a pay cut. We were talking about the rise in the average industrial wage, the minimum wage and if you want to include the social welfare(which rose what 70%?) you are still seeing a massive rise in each respective groups purchasing power. The only person who gets screwed is the self employed whose business failed which yes I agree is totally wrong and perverse.

http://www.cso.ie/surveysandmethodologies/surveys/prices/documents/introductiontocpi.pdf

Aka Ishur

davoxx wrote: »

purchasing power:
35.82 => 47.33 = 75.68% gain

tell me i missing something?

Yes, it looks like you made up 47.33 and even then your maths are completely wrong. Sorry.

davoxx

Aka Ishur wrote: »

Yes, it looks like you made up 47.33 and even then your maths are completely wrong. Sorry.

yeah i was working in reverse - my bad

but 2008 => 47.33 (i took 2008 as it was the peak as per wages)

but still the increase is not huge - and i'm sure the purchasing power does not accurately represent rent, and other common expenditures ..

Aka Ishur

davoxx wrote: »

but still the increase is not huge - and i'm sure the purchasing power does not accurately represent rent, and other common expenditures ..

Well you may be sure are still wrong. If you simply look at the link i provided you would see that it includes for example:

01 Food and Non-Alcoholic Beverages
02 Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco
03 Clothing and Footwear
04 Housing, Water, Electricity, Gas and Other Fuels
05 Furnishings, Household Equipment and Routine Household Maintenance
06 Health
07 Transport
08 Communications
09 Recreation and Culture
10 Education
11 Restaurants and Hotels
12 Miscellaneous Goods and Service

Was it too much to just read it? Unfollowing this thread. You can't back anything up with anything other than 'i'm sure that' and 'I think..'.

davoxx

Aka Ishur wrote: »

Well you may be sure are still wrong. If you simply look at the link i provided you would see that it includes for example:

01 Food and Non-Alcoholic Beverages
02 Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco
03 Clothing and Footwear
04 Housing, Water, Electricity, Gas and Other Fuels
05 Furnishings, Household Equipment and Routine Household Maintenance
06 Health
07 Transport
08 Communications
09 Recreation and Culture
10 Education
11 Restaurants and Hotels
12 Miscellaneous Goods and Service

Was it too much to just read it? Unfollowing this thread. You can't back anything up with anything other than 'i'm sure that' and 'I think..'.

i'm not wrong ... maybe you should read what i said: " i'm sure the purchasing power does not accurately represent rent"

i never said it does not include rent, i said accurately represent it.

back to the stats .. those figures are averages - how much of purchasing power is rent? 10% 20%? well?? so you're sure that they accurately represent everything ... all figures do right?

BECAUSE that is how the stats work ... do you actually know how they calculate their figures? which set of products? you don't .. neither do i so that is why i say 'i think' tbh if you think we did so great why are we in the situation now?.

i can back up loads .. fact percentage increase in low end pay vs high end pay are not the same. just because we now earn more that previously does not mean we are not poor.. those are the facts.

maybe you should leave this thread and start one saying "everything is great .. we're not poor now .. look figures ... we have loads of money coz we got paid sooo much more than in the past" i'm sure that loads of people agree ..