Changes in HSE structure and doctor's pay?

DessieMG

With the proposed changes in the HSE by Labour and Fine Gael and talk of capping public sector wages at 200,000 would this mean that consultants and GP's would be hit, does his mean that it would be less financially advantageous to do medicine since it is a very demanding job and requires you to make a lot of sacrifices?

RobFowl

DessieMG wrote: »

With the proposed changes in the HSE by Labour and Fine Gael and talk of capping public sector wages at 200,000 would this mean that consultants and GP's would be hit, does his mean that it would be less financially advantageous to do medicine since it is a very demanding job and requires you to make a lot of sacrifices?

Some consultants would be hit (but a small minority) and GP's would not as they are not paid a salary...

opinion guy

DessieMG wrote: »

With the proposed changes in the HSE by Labour and Fine Gael and talk of capping public sector wages at 200,000 would this mean that consultants and GP's would be hit, does his mean that it would be less financially advantageous to do medicine since it is a very demanding job and requires you to make a lot of sacrifices?

Is financial advantage a reason you are thinking to do medicine ?
Because if so there are other things you can make more money in

spagboll

all the professions are tough going in the medium term tbf

rbrbrb

I hate people who pretend that good finances wasn't an attraction for them to do medicine. Of course it's something people are concerned about when thinking about taking up a career. It shouldn't be the basis of why you choose a career in medicine but it is perfectly ok for people to ask how much they might earn.

imported_guy

rbrbrb wrote: »

I hate people who pretend that good finances wasn't an attraction for them to do medicine. Of course it's something people are concerned about when thinking about taking up a career. It shouldn't be the basis of why you choose a career in medicine but it is perfectly ok for people to ask how much they might earn.

Un político pobre es un pobre político

a politician who is poor, is a poor politican

a doctor who is poor, is a poor doctor :cool:

opinion guy

imported_guy wrote: »

Un político pobre es un pobre político

a politician who is poor, is a poor politican

a doctor who is poor, is a poor doctor :cool:

Not too many of either in this country:D

Bella mamma

RobFowl wrote: »

Some consultants would be hit (but a small minority) and GP's would not as they are not paid a salary...

Isn't the plan to have 'free' GP care by 2016? What'll happen then? A capitation system that is 'capped'? Is that not a salary per se??

Bella mamma

rbrbrb wrote: »

I hate people who pretend that good finances wasn't an attraction for them to do medicine. Of course it's something people are concerned about when thinking about taking up a career. It shouldn't be the basis of why you choose a career in medicine but it is perfectly ok for people to ask how much they might earn.

Agree perfectly ok. On a personal note, never an attraction nor a consideration to this day. Quite happy with the simple life.

RobFowl

Bella mamma wrote: »

Isn't the plan to have 'free' GP care by 2016? What'll happen then? A capitation system that is 'capped'? Is that not a salary per se??

That is the system in the UK and GP's there are not salaried....
Similar in Canada, Austrailia and most countries with "Free" GP care

ttmd

OP

You seem to imply that anything below €200k (+ almost guaranteed employment) is not a high salary? I read recently that earning 70k sterling (€80k) will put you in the top 5% of earners in the UK.

Just because we wont be seeing 'The Fabulous Life of GPs and Consultants' on Mtv anytime soon does not mean these people are badly paid.

ttmd

rbrbrb wrote: »

I hate people who pretend that good finances wasn't an attraction for them to do medicine. Of course it's something people are concerned about when thinking about taking up a career. It shouldn't be the basis of why you choose a career in medicine but it is perfectly ok for people to ask how much they might earn.

+1

I do'nt like when people say its easier to earn a lot of money in other things, its pretty hard to earn a lot money in most things unless you work hard or you are very lucky.

ttmd

Bella mamma wrote: »

Agree perfectly ok. On a personal note, never an attraction nor a consideration to this day. Quite happy with the simple life.

I have doctors in the family who say roughly the same thing.

No sarcasm intended, but count yourself lucky if money worries or stable employment are not considerations - they would be attractions if you didnt have them.

tallaght01

One thing that has always amazed me as a doctor is how many people have an opinion on my salary yet very few have 1) any idea of what our salaries actually are, beyond the balls they read in the papers and 2) anything other than a muted opinion on what needs to be done to earn good money as a doctor (especially as a NCHD).

Bella mamma

ttmd wrote: »

I have doctors in the family who say roughly the same thing.

No sarcasm intended, but count yourself lucky if money worries or stable employment are not considerations - they would be attractions if you didnt have them.

I never said stable employment wasn't a consideration thank you very much. You don't know whether I live from month to month or not. And don't assume I'd be attracted to any job by money 'cos you're way off the mark on that one. Way off.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

In all due respect the OP was implying that the pay at the top end of the profession is somehow insufficient.

I don't think they were, actually.

It's certainly less financially "advantageous" if their wages are cut, when the consultants can earn twice as much by leaving the public sector.

That's all they said.

GPs won't be affected.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't think they were, actually.

It's certainly less financially "advantageous" if their wages are cut, when the consultants can earn twice as much by leaving the public sector.

That's all they said.

GPs won't be affected.

I deleted that post because the tone was a bit ratty and apologies for that.

stimpson

tallaght01 wrote: »

One thing that has always amazed me as a doctor is how many people have an opinion on my salary yet very few have 1) any idea of what our salaries actually are, beyond the balls they read in the papers

perhaps they can do a quick calculation in the waiting room. 6 x 10 minute appointments x 3 hours a day less expenses. An easier way is to see if they are driving a 3 series or a 5 series.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

I deleted that post because the tone was a bit ratty and apologies for that.

Mate, you've gotta embrace the rage, or you'll go nuts :P

ttmd

Bella mamma wrote: »

I never said stable employment wasn't a consideration thank you very much. You don't know whether I live from month to month or not. And don't assume I'd be attracted to any job by money 'cos you're way off the mark on that one. Way off.

I just found your initial statement a bit flippant Bella. While money should be not be an overriding motivation for choosing any career, I do not think its good to be ambivalent about it either.

I have a brother who leaving architecture because he cant sustain himself, and any doc I know is at least sheltered from these sort of worries.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't think they were, actually.

It's certainly less financially "advantageous" if their wages are cut, when the consultants can earn twice as much by leaving the public sector.

I think you are contradicting yourself when say is less financially advantageous to do medicine then. If you want the best money just go to the private sector and any cuts in the public sector is irrelevant.

I did find a implicit tone in the post that salaries below €200k were not enough to motivate people into medicine and it was not a job worth doing because of this?

imported_guy

stimpson wrote: »

perhaps they can do a quick calculation in the waiting room. 6 x 10 minute appointments x 3 hours a day less expenses. An easier way is to see if they are driving a 3 series or a 5 series.

a 3 series or a 5 series?

what are these peasant wagons you sepak of?

dont you know every doctor drives a bently?.... unless they actually prefer driving a rolls royce.... i actually dont like driving atall, if i was a doctor i'd.........









































.........now wheres my chauffeur :rolleyes:.... i've patients to see.... oh here he comes :rolleyes:

and on a more serious note ttmd, if you dont know how to make money in a profession other than medicine, you wont make money in medicine, and OP, if a doctor wants to make money instead of help people, he wouldnt be working for the government, take your pick, money vs self satisfaction.

Bella mamma

ttmd wrote: »

I just found your initial statement a bit flippant Bella. While money should be not be an overriding motivation for choosing any career, I do not think its good to be ambivalent about it either.

I have a brother who leaving architecture because he cant sustain himself, and any doc I know is at least sheltered from these sort of worries.

Flippant? Ambivalent?

So you're using these words to describe my motivation in life not being €€€. Ever heard of family, health, career satisfaction, work colleagues, qualify of life...........???

What a loada crap. "Sheltered" indeed.

imported_guy

Bella mamma wrote: »

Flippant? Ambivalent?

So you're using these words to describe my motivation in life not being €€€. Ever heard of family, health, career satisfaction, work colleagues, qualify of life...........???

What a loada crap. "Sheltered" indeed.

grass is always greener on the other side

ttmd

Bella mamma wrote: »

Flippant? Ambivalent?

So you're using these words to describe my motivation in life not being €€€. Ever heard of family, health, career satisfaction, work colleagues, qualify of life...........???

What a loada crap. "Sheltered" indeed.

I can see you are getting irritated but I do not see why you do not see my post as a valid criticism.

I do not advocate greed, but you say money is not a consideration?

You talk about family and its very important. But many people are unable to start families, send their children to good schools, and soon enough to universities without a job that pays well.

My brother would probably like to start a family but not being able to support it would crush him.

I have a cousins in America who are getting crippled by sending their kids through college. And yes that is the States for you, but things might be very different here in a decade.

imported_guy

ttmd wrote: »

I can see you are getting irritated but I do not see why you do not see my post as a valid criticism.

I do not advocate greed, by you said money is not a consideration?

You talk about family and its very important. But many people are unable to start families, send their children to good schools, and soon enough to universities without a well paying job.

My brother would probably like to start a family but not being able to support them would crush him.

I have a cousins in America who are getting crippled by sending their kids through college. And yes that is the States for you, but things might be very different here in a decade.

criticizing people's pay is real mature, it shows jealousy, and makes people look pathetic, i actually really think the media looks like a big huge idiot when they criticize bankers, politicans etc

"brian cowen is the highest paid head of government" bla bla bla, he doesnt even earn pocket change compared to some people, and that goes the same for bankers with huge pensions.

everyone has the ability to earn absurd ammount of money, if you're going to criticize what some one with a noble profession earns, shame on you.


FYI

people in america pay 1/4 as much tax as us, and in some areas the cost of living is 1/10th, learn how economics/publically funded edumacation works bro.

sam34

stimpson and others, this is not a forum for taking pot-shots at doctors about their earnings.

any further such posts will be deleted and the poster will be banned.

no further warnings.

RobFowl

stimpson wrote: »

perhaps they can do a quick calculation in the waiting room. 6 x 10 minute appointments x 3 hours a day less expenses. An easier way is to see if they are driving a 3 series or a 5 series.

I'm a GP a we provide 15 minute appointments !
3 hours of appointments (12 in total) in the morning and again in the afternoon. 1-2 hours after of phone calls, checking results, paperwork and management issues.
Throw in the odd housecall and it averages a 9-10 hour day (longest recently was 0900 to 0100 the next morning but that involved an on-call shift).
I drive a very nice Volvo (2004 though) and live in a nice house in an estate (not extravagant but I love it). Am of an age where we got half time for overtime as an NCHD and nothing after 32 hours overtime.
Set up my own practice and generally that means about 2 years with no net income.
GP's are certainly not poor but not overly rich these days either.
If you want to calculate income it's roughly 30-40% of turnover and a lot of the work (like phone calls) is unpaid.
It's a great career but is hard work.
Hospital medicine tends to pay better but means much longer stints as NCHD's.

Bella mamma

imported_guy wrote: »

grass is always greener on the other side

Hilarious! I wrote that as my last line but deleted it in case it might add fuel to the fire!!

RobFowl - PM me anytime you wanna trade in that 'very nice (2004) Volvo' for a 2002 Astra. You might need your sat nav to get to my 3-bed semi, or just follow the helicopters of a Saturday night!

FYI
Lived in California for 6 years. Happy to discuss the American University system on the Edu forum anytime. Quick. I'll go get the popcorn........this should be good! :cool:

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

I think you are contradicting yourself when say is less financially advantageous to do medicine then. If you want the best money just go to the private sector and any cuts in the public sector is irrelevant.

I did find a implicit tone in the post that salaries below €200k were not enough to motivate people into medicine and it was not a job worth doing because of this?

A) The cut in salaries is relevant to the substantial portion of hospital docs who don't do private work. I wouldn't do private work, and I think the vast majority (if not all) the regular doctor posters on here are public-only. A lot of doctors are not comfortable with treating patients based on their ability to pay. Robfowl, as a GP, will have private patients, but I remember him posting here ages ago about the high number of "bad debts", most of whom are not pursued for their debts (sorry if it wasn't robfowl, but it was a GP on here). So, for someone like me, who will never do private work, medicine is certainly less "financially advantageous".

I think you're seeing an implication in the OP because you want to. I cannot see how anyone could interpret the OP as saying that being a consultant is "not a job worth doing" because of the money.

irishh_bob

RobFowl wrote: »

I'm a GP a we provide 15 minute appointments !
3 hours of appointments (12 in total) in the morning and again in the afternoon. 1-2 hours after of phone calls, checking results, paperwork and management issues.
Throw in the odd housecall and it averages a 9-10 hour day (longest recently was 0900 to 0100 the next morning but that involved an on-call shift).
I drive a very nice Volvo (2004 though) and live in a nice house in an estate (not extravagant but I love it). Am of an age where we got half time for overtime as an NCHD and nothing after 32 hours overtime.
Set up my own practice and generally that means about 2 years with no net income.
GP's are certainly not poor but not overly rich these days either.
If you want to calculate income it's roughly 30-40% of turnover and a lot of the work (like phone calls) is unpaid.
It's a great career but is hard work.
Hospital medicine tends to pay better but means much longer stints as NCHD's.

GP,s and consultants in ireland are the second wealthiest in the world after the usa according to recent reports , enough with this false modesty crap about doctors incomes in this country , by international standards , medics in ireland are extremley wealthy

both GP,s and consultants operate in closed shops and are among the most sheltered ( if not thee most sheltered ) sectors of the economy

tallaght01

irishh_bob wrote: »

GP,s and consultants in ireland are the second wealthiest in the world after the usa according to recent reports , enough with this false modesty crap about doctors incomes in this country , by international standards , medics in ireland are extremley wealthy

both GP,s and consultants operate in closed shops and are among the most sheltered ( if not thee most sheltered ) sectors of the economy

Dr Galen

Irishh_bob

Either you make point without resorting to taking pot shots or you simply don't post here. I've seen enough of your posting style across several fora to know what you are about. It won't be tolerated here. End of.

You are more than welcome here if you want to discuss in a rational and constructive manner. You make the choice, otherwise it will be made for you.

Cheers

DrG

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

A) The cut in salaries is relevant to the substantial portion of hospital docs who don't do private work. I wouldn't do private work, and I think the vast majority (if not all) the regular doctor posters on here are public-only. A lot of doctors are not comfortable with treating patients based on their ability to pay. Robfowl, as a GP, will have private patients, but I remember him posting here ages ago about the high number of "bad debts", most of whom are not pursued for their debts (sorry if it wasn't robfowl, but it was a GP on here). So, for someone like me, who will never do private work, medicine is certainly less "financially advantageous".

I think you're seeing an implication in the OP because you want to. I cannot see how anyone could interpret the OP as saying that being a consultant is "not a job worth doing" because of the money.

My argument would be that it is still financially advantageous to do medicine in the current day and age. 'Less' financially advantageous atm - I suppose.

But over the long term it does appear to be one of the very best careers for financial security.

Some points:

1) Most westernised countries will have ageing populations in the future and demand for healthcare will increase. Doctors seemed to be spared headcount reductions that we see in a lot of other industries -I thought Obamas speech about section in a factory needed 2 people rather 20 nowadays was telling.

2) Its advantageous because its a counter cyclical profession, not so much boom and bust.

3) Its usually easier for medics to find work abroad when conditions are tough at home.

4) You can pretty sure wherever you are medics salaries will be much higher than the average workers wherever you are

I know people who are who are changing careers at the moment due to poor pay and or conditions who got enough points to do med in their LC. A part of the reason they were put off the career is I feel that some medics may overemphasize the stresses of their career RELATIVE to other sectors, and downplay the advantages of the career. I believe some of these people were put off doing med for some of these reasons.

I realise the conditions of NCHD sound absolutely s**t, and do not think I would begrudge a medic whatever they earn or do not earn.

But I do think it is disingenuous to downplay that medicine appears to be one the most financially stable careers available. It can lead students to make a career choice that might not be in their long term best interest.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

Robfowl, as a GP, will have private patients, but I remember him posting here ages ago about the high number of "bad debts", most of whom are not pursued for their debts (sorry if it wasn't robfowl, but it was a GP on here)

This is simply a financial control issue and it is part of running any small business. Maybe you are implying that it is more difficult in medicine because these people are quite sick and genuinely cannot afford to pay, but otherwise it is a problem plenty of other businesses face.

irishh_bob

ttmd wrote: »

This is simply a financial control issue and it is part of running any small business. Maybe you are implying that it is more difficult in medicine because these people are quite sick and genuinely cannot afford to pay, but otherwise it is a problem plenty of other businesses face.

plus thier are not too many business,s which operate in a completley sheltered sector like GP,s do , never heard of thier being a cap on the number of hardware stores or car dealers which can open for business , have also never hear of hardware store owners agreeing with their counterparts in the next town over , not to steal each others customers

a cut above the rest as they say

oops , i forgot , the lower orders are not allowed speak their mind when it comes to thier medical betters , pulls down pants in advance

Dr Galen

Irishh_bob

Banned for six months from both Health Science Forums, I think we all know why.

I'm seriously relaxed when it comes to modding any forum around this site, but arguing back in thread is a serious no-no.

When your ban is up, if you wish to post here I suggest that you change your posting style to fit the ethos of the forum. If not, I cannot see this ending well.

Cheers

DrG

dissed doc

irishh_bob wrote: »

GP,s and consultants in ireland are the second wealthiest in the world after the usa according to recent reports , enough with this false modesty crap about doctors incomes in this country , by international standards , medics in ireland are extremley wealthy

both GP,s and consultants operate in closed shops and are among the most sheltered ( if not thee most sheltered ) sectors of the economy

Eh no, it's pretty much a wide open shop actually and any specialist in the EU can work here tomorrow if they pay the medical council (that's run by a majority of non-doctors FYI) around €600.

As you can see, there are literally thousands queuing up to leave their ****ty work conditions and low pay for the bright shining lights of the HSE.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

My argument would be that it is still financially advantageous to do medicine in the current day and age. 'Less' financially advantageous atm - I suppose.

But over the long term it does appear to be one of the very best careers for financial security.

Some points:

1) Most westernised countries will have ageing populations in the future and demand for healthcare will increase. Doctors seemed to be spared headcount reductions that we see in a lot of other industries -I thought Obamas speech about section in a factory needed 2 people rather 20 nowadays was telling.

2) Its advantageous because its a counter cyclical profession, not so much boom and bust.

3) Its usually easier for medics to find work abroad when conditions are tough at home.

4) You can pretty sure wherever you are medics salaries will be much higher than the average workers wherever you are

I know people who are who are changing careers at the moment due to poor pay and or conditions who got enough points to do med in their LC. A part of the reason they were put off the career is I feel that some medics may overemphasize the stresses of their career RELATIVE to other sectors, and downplay the advantages of the career. I believe some of these people were put off doing med for some of these reasons.

I realise the conditions of NCHD sound absolutely s**t, and do not think I would begrudge a medic whatever they earn or do not earn.

But I do think it is disingenuous to downplay that medicine appears to be one the most financially stable careers available. It can lead students to make a career choice that might not be in their long term best interest.

Your post is essentially correct, albeit a little naive. Though, they're not the points that were being argued. If people want a career that has reasonable job security, while having to get a new job every 6 months, and reasonable pay, then go for it.

No idea why people who get the points for medicine, but don't do the course, and don't work 24 hour shifts for years should get those same conditions, though.

I don't think medics overstate the stresses of their career. I've done LOT of jobs in my time, and I've only done one single 24 hour shift outside medicine, and was very well compensated for it, on top of 4 days off afterwards as a thank you.
Anyway, these are not the issue we're arguing.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

This is simply a financial control issue and it is part of running any small business. Maybe you are implying that it is more difficult in medicine because these people are quite sick and genuinely cannot afford to pay, but otherwise it is a problem plenty of other businesses face.

The point was that plenty of GPs don't go after patients who can't pay. I have tried to screw a lot of companies in my time and they always come looking for their money

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

Your post is essentially correct, albeit a little naive. Though, they're not the points that were being argued. If people want a career that has reasonable job security, while having to get a new job every 6 months, and reasonable pay, then go for it.

I do think its relevant. From a purely financial perspective, its a good thing to do relative to a lot of other things, and therefore, I think, both in absolute and relative terms it is advantageous to do medicine, and my points are related to that.

PS - Less advantageous because of pay cuts? Its could more advantageous if everyone else gets their pay cut by more.

[/QUOTE] No idea why people who get the points for medicine, but don't do the course, and don't work 24 hour shifts for years should get those same conditions, though.[/QUOTE]

Well some people tell them they can get those conditions without the stress in other professions. It does them a disservice, and some of them might chosen to work the long hours if stability is what they value.

[/QUOTE]I don't think medics overstate the stresses of their career. I've done LOT of jobs in my time, and I've only done one single 24 hour shift outside medicine, and was very well compensated for it, on top of 4 days off afterwards as a thank you.
Anyway, these are not the issue we're arguing.[/QUOTE]

The OP did mention mentions the demands of the career in his post so I do think is relevant to talk about the relative levels of stress.

And I do not mean to downplay the professions evident demands, its rather what I genuinely see as a failure to empathise with stresses beyond their own profession.

I am going off on bit of a tangent here, but I arranged dinner to celebrate a personal achievement a few years ago. As my sister, mother, aunt and godfather were all medics, I found the conversation dominated by them complaining about work. I notice this happens a lot with doctors. And yes I know if got other people with the same job got around the same table, they would talk about work, but imo medics are the worst. I remember talking to a consultant friend of my mothers telling me that she does her best to spare her husband this sort of social situation.

I love them all, but I honestly think this sort of dynamic (ie. medics can be incredibly incestuous in who they hang around with) feeds a lack of empathy where they cannot imagine anyone having as stressful a time as them.

I understand long hours, poor conditions and a lack of training places are not to be sniffed at. But conversely being underemployed with your career descending into limbo is stressful, having not enough money is stressful, being stuck in a sinking country because you cant find a decent job to move abroad for is stressful - I could go on. Its appropriate that any prospective student see the advantages of medicine relative to other careers so they can make a more informed choice.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

The point was that plenty of GPs don't go after patients who can't pay. I have tried to screw a lot of companies in my time and they always come looking for their money

I asked my mother (GP) about this this evening and she said they have implemented better controls and she does not consider it a major issue, where it was in the past.

Are you at least sure that the GPs are taking the appropriate action to deal with these issues? If not I can not have more sympathy with them than with any other type of business.

tallaght01

Again, I don't think you're wrong in a lot of what you're saying, but I think you have a very skewed view of how medics think, and very little insight into working conditions. I'm still not sure what point exactly you're making, and how they differ from the points I'm making. Except I get the feeling (and it's just a feeling) that you value financial reward more than I guess most medics do.

With respect to people in the business world, a lot of my friends in this field tell me often how I'm very lucky and I earn more than most and they don't have job security etc etc. And that's fine.

However, by and large they've haven't done 3 degrees like me, they don't work a patch on the hours I've worked, and they haven't had the responsibility for human life that I've had. My sister is a junior lawyer and doesn't work anything close to the hours I do, and my mate is an accountant and finishes at 5pm each day. I don't think other professions are un-stressful. But I think very few match the working conditions and responsibility of medicine.

People in business make a lot of money when times are good, and don't do so well when they're not. Whereas our salary is reasonably constant. I guess they're the choices you make. The wealthiest people I know are in property and art, and they're self employed. I don't know any rich doctors, and don't know any poor ones either.

I think the problem is lots of kids going into medicine talk about consultant salaries, when maybe 10% will become a consultant. or they talk about GP practice owners' salaries, when I'd imagine most won't get to that stage. I don't think anyone here would ever say we're poor. But most of us aren't rich. I've been a chicken and legged it to Australia, where I live month to month, with no savings.

I also rarely socialise with medics, and don't talk about medicine. In fact, most medics will tell you that one of their biggest social problems is non-medics constantly want to talk to them about their job.

I don't want to get into a massive back and forth about this, because I think you have very specific thoughts on this issue, and with respect, I think they're (slightly) naive and don't reflect reality on a large scale.

I think the last thing I'd say is that most NCHDs wouldn't agree that the job is worth it for the money alone, whereas you're talking about finances in isolation. Salary scales are easy to find, but real information about the job is hard to find. This forum is one of the few places where Irish med students and potential students can get real info on what the job is about. If that involves telling people that medicine is "less financially advantageous" than it used to be, then so be it.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

I asked my mother (GP) about this this evening and she said they have implemented better controls and she does not consider it a major issue, where it was in the past.

Are you at least sure that the GPs are taking the appropriate action to deal with these issues? If not I can not have more sympathy with them than with any other type of business.

What controls are they? Not saying you're lying or anything, I'd just be interested, as bad debts have traditionally been a big issue for people I know in private practice,and would be interested in how they get round it.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

Again, I don't think you're wrong in a lot of what you're saying, but I think you have a very skewed view of how medics think, and very little insight into working conditions. I'm still not sure what point exactly you're making, and how they differ from the points I'm making. Except I get the feeling (and it's just a feeling) that you value financial reward more than I guess most medics do.

With respect to people in the business world, a lot of my friends in this field tell me often how I'm very lucky and I earn more than most and they don't have job security etc etc. And that's fine.

However, by and large they've haven't done 3 degrees like me, they don't work a patch on the hours I've worked, and they haven't had the responsibility for human life that I've had. My sister is a junior lawyer and doesn't work anything close to the hours I do, and my mate is an accountant and finishes at 5pm each day. I don't think other professions are un-stressful. But I think very few match the working conditions and responsibility of medicine.

People in business make a lot of money when times are good, and don't do so well when they're not. Whereas our salary is reasonably constant. I guess they're the choices you make. The wealthiest people I know are in property and art, and they're self employed. I don't know any rich doctors, and don't know any poor ones either.

I think the problem is lots of kids going into medicine talk about consultant salaries, when maybe 10% will become a consultant. or they talk about GP practice owners' salaries, when I'd imagine most won't get to that stage. I don't think anyone here would ever say we're poor. But most of us aren't rich. I've been a chicken and legged it to Australia, where I live month to month, with no savings.

I also rarely socialise with medics, and don't talk about medicine. In fact, most medics will tell you that one of their biggest social problems is non-medics constantly want to talk to them about their job.

I don't want to get into a massive back and forth about this, because I think you have very specific thoughts on this issue, and with respect, I think they're (slightly) naive and don't reflect reality on a large scale.

I think the last thing I'd say is that most NCHDs wouldn't agree that the job is worth it for the money alone, whereas you're talking about finances in isolation. Salary scales are easy to find, but real information about the job is hard to find. This forum is one of the few places where Irish med students and potential students can get real info on what the job is about. If that involves telling people that medicine is "less financially advantageous" than it used to be, then so be it.

Sorry I will try to keep my responses shorter.

Look I will agree I cannot hope to have enough perspective on the junior levels of the profession. But I still think you most doctors will have lower level of financial worry, which is a big perk of the profession.

I do not think its good to talk about finances in isolation. But on the contrary I think medics can poo poo the issue a bit too much.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

What controls are they? Not saying you're lying or anything, I'd just be interested, as bad debts have traditionally been a big issue for people I know in private practice,and would be interested in how they get round it.

This is going to sound crude but so be it, and apologies as my initial counterpoint could have been misleading and badly phrased.

They employed a member of staff who previously basically told them them to be more assertive on the issue. Additionally the layout of their new premises directs them to separate exit to the surgery (a checkout so to speak), which is gentle prompt not to leave without paying. She said that her old employer would not survive if they were such pushovers.(she worked in the hospitality sector previously)

I have small suspicion that to some docs, referring to a practice as a 'business' is vulgar.

imported_guy

ttmd wrote: »

Sorry I will try to keep my responses shorter.

Look I will agree I cannot hope to have enough perspective on the junior levels of the profession. But I still think you most doctors will have lower level of financial worry, which is a big perk of the profession.

I do not think its good to talk about finances in isolation. But on the contrary I think medics can poo poo the issue a bit too much.

okay lets look at it this way, go to any medical school, tcd/rcsi in particular where there are alot of arabs/pakistani/indian kids, you'll see them driving beemers/mercs (the students) alot of the people who do medicine are from "better off" socieo economic backgrounds already (lets be clear here, im not saying EVERYONE, but a decent majority), most people who do medicine go into it from private schools (again im not saying everyone), who repeat the LC a few times.... alot of them if they wanted wouldnt have to even do medicine, or even any sort of work, they could just sponge off their inheritence/parents' money, so for alot of people doing medicine, money isnt a factor at all

rbrbrb

ha, 'a lot of them could sponge off their inheritance/parents for the rest of their lives'. I have never heard such a load a crap. I'd say that is a tiny tiny tiny minority. Maybe one in every 400 or even less. Don't talk rubbish please.

ttmd

imported_guy wrote: »

okay lets look at it this way, go to any medical school, tcd/rcsi in particular where there are alot of arabs/pakistani/indian kids, you'll see them driving beemers/mercs (the students) alot of the people who do medicine are from "better off" socieo economic backgrounds already (lets be clear here, im not saying EVERYONE, but a decent majority), most people who do medicine go into it from private schools (again im not saying everyone), who repeat the LC a few times.... alot of them if they wanted wouldnt have to even do medicine, or even any sort of work, they could just sponge off their inheritence/parents' money, so for alot of people doing medicine, money isnt a factor at all

Yup and living off their parents is great for most peoples self confidence.;) I am sure their parents would also be delighted with this arrangement.

imported_guy

rbrbrb wrote: »

ha, 'a lot of them could sponge off their inheritance/parents for the rest of their lives'. I have never heard such a load a crap. I'd say that is a tiny tiny tiny minority. Maybe one in every 400 or even less. Don't talk rubbish please.

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=202&a=748#Fees

Fees
Fees for 2011 are 47,000 Euro per annum.

cool story bro, if you can afford 50 grand a year for tuition, you can afford to sponge off your rents, 50,000 a year is more than alot of NCHDs earn.

besides im just making a point that if you have that much cash flow already, you're not gonna do medicine for money, a point that ttmd doesnt get, money isnt the be all and end all in life

im bowing out of here on a light note

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqJDuZIcQ34

ttmd

imported_guy wrote: »

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=202&a=748#Fees



cool story bro, if you can afford 50 grand a year for tuition, you can afford to sponge off your rents, 50,000 a year is more than alot of NCHDs earn.

besides im just making a point that if you have that much cash flow already, you're not gonna do medicine for money, a point that ttmd doesnt get, money isnt the be all and end all in life

im bowing out of here on a light note

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqJDuZIcQ34

You seem to have an obsession with exorbitant wealth which clouds your judgement of reality.