Incorrect time on fixed charge speeding letter from the Gardai - Does it matter?

rickyjb

So I received in the post a fixed charge offence for speeding letter (for anyone who read this post yes, it arrived!) and on reading it my girlfriend raised an interesting point.

The time that it was alleged the offence ocurred at is incorrect. I was stopped just before 8 in the evening but the time on the letter clearly states that it was 07:52 hrs, with the hrs part being vital here in my mind as it means that they are using the 24 hour time format, so it's 7:52 in the morning.

If I can prove that I wasn't on the road at that time can I get out of it, or does the fact that I gave all my details at the side of the road mean that the incorrect time doesn't matter?

I was also thinking that it might have implications for the calibration of the speed gun, I know they have to be calibrated regularly and if it's not documented as being calibrated at this time does that help me?

Finally, even if I do have a case what would I need to do, let it go to court and then hire a solicitor?

meercat

you could write a letter to the superintendent outlining the problem
he may re-issue a penalty notice though
it doesnt take away from the fact you were speeding though
might get away on a technicality
good luck

mickdw

If you have any way of showing that the offence actually occured in the evening, then best to just let it go to court and get it thrown out. Yes you were speeding, but people must be accountable if they cannot do their job correctly.

rickyjb

I'm not disputing the fact that I was speeding but hey, I was late for the ferry:o

Getting away on a technicality is pretty much what I was hoping for but I wouldn't like to risk going to court and ending up with 4 points instead.

Has anyone gotten a case thrown out on a similar technicality?

Atlantic Dawn

I'd query it, at the end of the day you are admitting to an offence at a certain time of the day which is incorrect and thus if you were to say be accused of a murder or other serious crime at the correct time you would have no alibi to be on that road where you actually were . The Garda being unable to fill in a speeding ticket correctly is an education issue at Templemore, nothing to do with you.

meercat

rickyjb wrote: »

I'm not disputing the fact that I was speeding but hey, I was late for the ferry:o

Getting away on a technicality is pretty much what I was hoping for but I wouldn't like to risk going to court and ending up with 4 points instead.

Has anyone gotten a case thrown out on a similar technicality?

wife was stopped by traffic corps for speeding
she received a penalty notice but the garda forgot to fill the actual speed in the allocated box
she was prepared to pay the fixed penalty notice and wrote to the superintendent to alert him of the error on the notice
he replied politely stating the penalty notice had been withdrawn and she should mind her speed in future

it is worth a try

RachaelVO

I wouldn't go to court with it, they could take a very dim view of you trying to take the p1ss and get off! Depends on the mood the judge will be in, not summit I'd like to test!

Just point it out to the superintendent and see what happens, there is a chance it'll be voided! If not, just pay it you could risk more going to court!

Our man in Havana

I would tough it out and call their bluff.

firefly08

It might be worth having a solicitor there, to tell the judge that you were elsewhere at that time, rather than doing it yourself, which might be regarded as cheeky (although it shouldn't). I can't see how you wouldn't get away with it; you've been accused of doing something at a certain time and place; if you weren't there at that time, and you can prove it, then that should be the end of that.

I don't know if I'd contact the Guards, they might just cancel it and send another one with the correct time!

coylemj

Your query would be more appropriate in the Legal forum rather than asking the petrolheads here.

If the actual time of the incident is not material to the alleged offence and you ignore the fixed penalty notice and it goes to a summons, the judge will simply alter the time (if it's stated) on the summons and you will have to answer the charge, he is allowed to do this under the District Court Rules.

What I mean by the time being 'material' is that if the speed limit you allegedly broke applies for all 24 hours of the day, then the actual time isn't an essential ingredient in the offence. If the speed limit only applied for part of the day then the time of the offence would be material and you (but more likely your solicitor) might have a case for telling the judge that to alter the time on the summons would represent a significant change and beyond his jurisdiction.

If it's a 24 hour speed limit I'd pay the penalty and take the points.

Our man in Havana

coylemj wrote: »

Your query would be more appropriate in the Legal forum rather than asking the petrolheads here.

If the actual time of the incident is not material to the alleged offence and you ignore the fixed penalty notice and it goes to a summons, the judge will simply alter the time (if it's stated) on the summons and you will have to answer the charge, he is allowed to do this under the District Court Rules.

What I mean by the time being 'material' is that if the speed limit you allegedly broke applies for all 24 hours of the day, then the actual time isn't an essential ingredient in the offence. If the speed limit only applied for part of the day then the time of the offence would be material and you (but more likely your solicitor) might have a case for telling the judge that to alter the time on the summons would represent a significant change and beyond his jurisdiction.

If it's a 24 hour speed limit I'd pay the penalty and take the points.

What speed limit isn't 24 hours?

coylemj

Our man in Havana wrote: »

What speed limit isn't 24 hours?

I'm not aware of any. I was using the hypothesis of a time-based speed limit to illustrate the fact that if the time isn't an essential part of the offence in the OP's case, a judge would not throw out a prosecution just because the time is wrong, he will just change the time on the summons and tell him that the case is going ahead.

rickyjb

I might try the legal forum so and see what they have to say. I'll say I'll just send a letter to the superintendent and see what happens though, seems to be the least riskiest thing to do.

I'm not sure everyone in the motors fourm are just petrolheads though...

Gael23

I think if you challenge it, you will win. Lots of these cases get thrown out of court on minor technicalities.

1916

Garda can just ask the Judge to amend the time on the summons, as always in court, it can go either way on the day

coylemj

ryanf1 wrote: »

I think if you challenge it, you will win. Lots of these cases get thrown out of court on minor technicalities.

On what basis do you say it will get thrown out? It is a technicality but lots of people march into court expecting to get off because of this type of mistake only to watch in dismay as the judge alters the wording of the summons and say that the case will go ahead.

Our man in Havana

The secret is to stay quiet until the Garda has read the wrong evidence into the record.

mik_da_man

I've seen a few similar ones going through court and it's risky taking it that far.
They way I see it is:

Option 1 - make the Guards aware of the error. IMO they will re-issue the notice with the correct time. €80 and 2 points

Option 2 - Take it to court yourself. If you defend yourself it totally depends on the judge. I've seen similar ones being struck out. if you loose you will have 4 points and will have to take a day/half day off work to attend.

Option 3 - Get a solictor, get proof you were not there at that time. better chance of getting off, but not 100% and you may end up with 4 points and a bill.

I think if it was me I'd take option 1, presuming you have no points already, 2 makes no difference to insurance and it's only €80 Vs taking time off / Solictor bill

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

The judge can most certainly allow amendment of the time if requested in Court to do so.

Anyway you were speeding. Pay up and get over it. You were caught; big deal. Maybe you'll slow down the next time.

dharn

there is a time limit within which a summons can be reissiued so if you write to the super by registered letter just as summons is about to expire i think it is 28 days, explaining your case i dont think they will be able to prosecute you it worked for me where the incorrect speed was put on the summons i was accused of doing 50k in a 50 k area so did as outlined above and never heard from them again let us know how you got on

kevin101

Maybe it was an error by the person entering the data from the ticket the Garda wrote. For example if the Garda wrote 19.52 and sent the ticket off to be proscessed then if the person who entered it onto the computer got it wrong and put in 7.52 then I think the ticket would stand. If it went to court the Garda would read the evidence from his notebook stating he stopped you at 19.52 then 4 points for you and a fine. Pay the ticket I reckon.

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

On what basis do you say it will get thrown out? It is a technicality but lots of people march into court expecting to get off because of this type of mistake only to watch in dismay as the judge alters the wording of the summons and say that the case will go ahead.

I once saw a Garda admit to the judge he may have the incorrect registration number and the judge convicted anyway because the Garda still proved he had been speeding.

Duiske

coylemj wrote: »

On what basis do you say it will get thrown out? It is a technicality but lots of people march into court expecting to get off because of this type of mistake only to watch in dismayin as the judge alters the wording of the summons and say that the case will go ahead.

A judge can only judge a case on the evidence produced to him by the prosecuting Gardai and the defendant. The evidence produced by the Gardai includes the detail's provided in the summons, and the judge has absolutely no remit to "alter" this, or any other, evidence in order to secure a conviction.

1916

Duiske wrote: »

the judge has absolutely no remit to "alter" this, or any other, evidence in order to secure a conviction.

Example

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-to-face-court-over-worn-tyre-in-car-death-incident-1278577.html

rickyjb

Thanks for all the replies, I have to say though I'm enjoying the way I've gotten all the technical legal replies here on the motors forum (complete with a case example, thanks 1916!) while the replies I've received on the legal forum have been of the more "practical" nature, for example

infacteh wrote: »

You were caught, accept it and pay the fine!

Rodin wrote: »

Go for it. Prove you werent on the road at the time
Any chance to get them back

I don't think I'm gona risk going to court and I'm certainly not paying a solicitor so I think I'll contact the Gardai and see what they come back with, maybe slightly hint that I'm aware they've made a mistake and I may be willing to go to court but don't want to waste taxpayer's money. Best case scenario is they'll let me off, worst case is they'll just send me a new letter with the correct time so no real risk involved. Unlikely it will do much good but worth a go I think.

meercat

agree
you need to write to the local superintendent and enclose a copy of your ticket

rickyjb

meercat wrote: »

agree
you need to write to the local superintendent and enclose a copy of your ticket

When you say local superintendent do you think that should be the superintendent in the area where I reside, the area the letter was sent from (Thurles I think) or the area where I was caught speeding? All three are different.

Our man in Havana

the area where I was caught speeding

That one.

meercat

i would imagine the area of the issuing station Thurles

mickdw

What about the genuine case of a person who wasnt happy to pay the fine which places them somewhere they were not but simply wanted the time changed to reflect the correct time.
Surely if solicitor was to up in court and stated that client was happy to pay fine but wanted it altered to true time, this judge would have to listen to this. In this case the judge should only give 2 points. If this option is not available to the judge, he would have to strike it out I would think.

MagicSean

mickdw wrote: »

What about the genuine case of a person who wasnt happy to pay the fine which places them somewhere they were not but simply wanted the time changed to reflect the correct time.
Surely if solicitor was to up in court and stated that client was happy to pay fine but wanted it altered to true time, this judge would have to listen to this. In this case the judge should only give 2 points. If this option is not available to the judge, he would have to strike it out I would think.

They would need to get a new fine issued and get the old one cancelled. It really makes no difference which one you pay though.

mickdw

Judges have been known to give the garda a telling off though and throwing out the case.

It does make a difference in that you are not agreeing to be somewhere you were not.

Our man in Havana

mickdw wrote: »

Judges have been known to give the garda a telling off though and throwing out the case.

It does make a difference in that you are not agreeing to be somewhere you were not.

It is a matter of principle.

yayamark

What was the outcome of that case?

1916 wrote: »

Example

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-to-face-court-over-worn-tyre-in-car-death-incident-1278577.html