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6 O'Clock news this evening

  • 15-03-2011 9:18pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭


    The 6 o'clock tv news today had a piece on Saorview - and the reporter stated during it that "it's free to air but customers will have to buy a set top box"

    No mention at all was made of some current tv's being able to receive the channels? Why would this be?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2011/0315/media-2925013.html#


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    Vested interest methinks with a certain brand starting with a W?
    :D Did you all notice a particular brand of a set top box during the news report? Maybe they just forgot or are a bit confused or clueless perhaps?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Sloppy/lazy reporting. Worse that this sort of misinformation is coming direct from RTÉ.

    Did it not occur to her to read the Saorview FAQ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    Apogee wrote: »
    Sloppy/lazy reporting. Worse that this sort of misinformation is coming direct from RTÉ.

    Did it not occur to her to read the Saorview FAQ?
    I could write a cliche blond joke but I shall refrain from doing so. I agree. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭podgeandrodge


    actually, yer man from Saorview itself in the report only mentioned the set top boxes as well..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    actually, yer man from Saorview itself in the report only mentioned the set top boxes as well..
    I noticed that too. I wonder why also? Conspiracy theorists reading this anywhere? :)


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  • Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,172 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    It was mentioned on Morning Ireland today too, though I didn't hear much of it.


  • Subscribers Posts: 16,714 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    I think people are reading too much in to it, the report was the first such one and was aimed at giving people the basic requirements. A box is the cheapest/easiest way for anyone with an older TV currently receiving analogue off air to get saorview instead.

    The last thing you want is for people to get any kind of impression that everyone will need a new TV.

    The box in the report looked to have a saorview logo, the only one that does, so not much option which one to show at the moment?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭podgeandrodge


    copacetic wrote: »
    the report was the first such one and was aimed at giving people the basic requirements. A box is the cheapest/easiest way for anyone with an older TV currently receiving analogue off air to get saorview instead.

    The last thing you want is for people to get any kind of impression that everyone will need a new TV.

    But the result of reporting like that will give a lot of people that currently have a perfectly good tv for receiving saorview the impression that they need a box.

    If you are going to do a report on it give the full information.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    FREETV wrote: »
    I noticed that too. I wonder why also? Conspiracy theorists reading this anywhere? :)
    Yes I'm reading.
    But then again there hasnt been much question thrown that way here either. Mantra on forum seems to be "Saorview certified" but no question as to why oh why is the world renouned and instantly known brand for quality and reliability:rolleyes: Walker the only certified brand for stb and TV - surely not because they are the only importer/manufacturer for the last 2 years since the specs were published who could afford to outlay the cost for certification in the hope of jumping in to a comfortable market where same brand probably wouldnt get a look in otherwise or dare I suggest....

    In the stores, they aren't trying to push overpriced 100 stbs when you could get a full TV for not much more yet they get first and only mention on RTE.
    No mention how if you bought your TV recently it should already be saorview compatible even if not certified.

    600,000 is only the tip of the number of TVs that will become monitors after ASO. €60,000,000 worth of stbs anyone? You couldnt even get 60 PKs for that.


    As ever this is Ireland and stones should not be turned for fear of who you might find under them.

    I blame Zworykin, or Farnsworth, or Baird, or Belin, or Sawyer, or Carey or....;)

    /crawls back under rock


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭ULMarc


    Yup. It should be made more obvious that the kit needed to receive DTT has been common place for years. Though funneling people down one reliable stream is probably the safest option.

    I think educating people about other things rather than the receiver is more important. Things such as UHF arial setups, cabling and the like. This will mitigate most of the problems of people being taken advantage of. It should be shown that, for the majority, receiving DTT is a simple and feasible process.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    If they screw up the info campaign there is a chance people will end up going for a SKY sub thinking thats a simple one stop solution, which it is of course unless you yearn for RTE News Now and digital Aretel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    mike65 wrote: »
    If they screw up the info campaign there is a chance people will end up going for a SKY sub thinking thats a simple one stop solution, which it is of course unless you yearn for RTE News Now and digital Aretel.
    or if properly informed (and equipped) you can get 7 Irish and about 50 UK channels entirely sub free.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭tlaavtech


    actually, yer man from Saorview itself in the report only mentioned the set top boxes as well..

    ATM, the only certified Saorview equipment is an STB - No need for conspiracy theories about Walker. This is the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) phase of the campaign. Start throwing in MHEG5 compatibility and people will stop listening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    YEs, there is also certified Walker TVs.

    The Info campaign must not talk about MPEG4, MHEG5 etc. There are TV/DVD combos that advertise MPEG4. Nothing to do with TV reception. PC file playback.

    Almost no compatible TV mentions MHEG5 in shop adverts. All "Freeview" stuff does MHEG5 and most "Freeview" doesn't work (esp. set-box). But all "Freeview HD" does "work" including MHEG5.

    Unfortunately given the small range of Models today the ONLY thing the Official Campaign can mention is Saorview certified compatibility.

    The retailers told in 2008 to inform shoppers about DTT and label TVs correctly. The NSA, CAI and ASAI needs to take action.

    If Retailers properly label stock and stop importing incompatible obsolete "dumped" product there is no problem.


    See http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/for-retailers/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Apogee


    tlaavtech wrote: »
    ATM, the only certified Saorview equipment is an STB - No need for conspiracy theories about Walker. This is the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) phase of the campaign. Start throwing in MHEG5 compatibility and people will stop listening.

    Leaving aside the conspiracy theories, the KISS approach is fine as long as it's accurate. Her report gives the misleading impression that everyone will have to buy a STB.

    So instead of saying "Viewers will have to buy a STB ...", she could have said "Most viewers will have to buy a STB ..." or "Viewers with older TVs will have to buy a STB ...".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭tlaavtech


    Apogee wrote: »
    Leaving aside the conspiracy theories, the KISS approach is fine as long as it's accurate. Her report gives the misleading impression that everyone will have to buy a STB.

    So instead of saying "Viewers will have to buy a STB ...", she could have said "Most viewers will have to buy a STB ..." or "Viewers with older TVs will have to buy a STB ...".

    True, but that does rely on the reporter having a genuine knowledge of the topic :P

    I think that Saorview have to be seen to promote the "Saorview Approved" hardware to keep credibility, but there are approved TV's which was not mentioned in the report according to the quotes above. I'm not saying that the report was completely accurate, but I think they were right to err on the side of simplicity rather than confuse things - we'll let the staff in the shops do that.

    Will someone remember exactly what was said in the report? Not likely. The aim of a report like that is to make people go to the web-site or the local shop where the proper options will be outlined. Get people thinking about DSO - that's the real thrust of the report.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Once RTE confirm that RTE HD will not be offered on SKY that will galvanise the market :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭AstralTV


    for a first major report on 'Saorview', it was fine, no need to baffle people more than they already are about saorview, and there is only one certified receiver at present,

    also I think the people out there who own a MPEG4 TV and an aerial will be allready be aware of the sevice (autotune),

    besides 'Tommy & PJ's ' drip feed of info will keep us right,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Apogee


    tlaavtech wrote: »
    Will someone remember exactly what was said in the report? Not likely. The aim of a report like that is to make people go to the web-site or the local shop where the proper options will be outlined. Get people thinking about DSO - that's the real thrust of the report.

    If she had done her job properly, she could have easily maintained the thrust of the report while remaining accurate and not relaying misinformation to the public.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    I hate to say this but........ had the ROI gone for MPeg 2 transmissions (rather than MPeg 4), cheap UK Freeview boxes would have been readily available.

    I assume by late 2012 cheap SD Saorview boxes will be on sale in the ROI ?????????????????????

    Otherwise, the whole DSO in the ROI is going to be a complete balls up.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    I assume by late 2012 cheap SD Saorview boxes will be on sale in the ROI ?????????????????????

    There will be no SD Saorview boxes. Since RTÉ2 will transmit in HD/upscaled HD from the start, SD boxes (either MPEG2 or MPEG4) would be pointless.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    .... besides which, in 2012, we would be talking about why did we not go for HD, and why did we go for all this old, obsoltete, system. How much would it cost then to upgrade to MPEG 4? We do not need DVB-T2 as we have a lot of spare capcity on the muxes we have for the public mux, and we could have four commercial muxes if we could only find someone rich enough to bankroll it.

    We have the possibility of having 4 HD channels for the current analogue channels and 10 SD channels on the two Pub muxes. We need no more.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    Apogee wrote: »
    There will be no SD Saorview boxes. Since RTÉ2 will transmit in HD/upscaled HD from the start, SD boxes (either MPEG2 or MPEG4) would be pointless.

    Yep, that's going to be a problem then.

    Will there be cheap HD Saorview boxes on sale in the ROI in late 2012 ?

    I would imagine there are still lots of:

    (a) 4:3 and 16:9 CRT TVs still floating about in the ROI.

    (b) SD LCD or Plasma TVs floating around the ROI (HD ready TVs have olnly been around for a few years).

    So for a lot of ROI viewers, RTE in HD will be pointless, from a viewing experience.

    In a time of deep recession in the ROI, asking peoiple to fork out 100 euros plus (and maybe a lot more if they have more than one TV) will surely not go down well with the veiwing public in the ROI.

    This could be a complete and utter balls up.

    At least in the UK, we have cheap SD Freeview boxes on sale for less than 30 quid


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭sesswhat


    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    Yep, that's going to be a problem then.

    Will there be cheap HD Saorview boxes on sale in the ROI in late 2012 ?

    I would imagine there are still lots of:

    (a) 4:3 and 16:9 CRT TVs still floating about in the ROI.

    (b) SD LCD or Plasma TVs floating around the ROI (HD ready TVs have olnly been arounds a few years).

    So for a lot of ROI viewers, RTE in HD will be pointless, from a viewing experience.

    In a time of deep recession in the ROI, asking peoiple to fork out 100 euros plus (and maybe a lot more if they have more than one TV) will surely not go down well with the veiwing public in the ROI.

    This could be a complete and utter balls up.

    At least in the UK, we have cheap SD Freeview boxes on sale for less than 30 quid

    By the end of next year, I expect the supermarkets to have a selection of Freeeview HD boxes at similar prices. I've already seen a Freeview HD box in ASDA for £50. Unlike Freesat, Freeview HD will have the numbers to bring the prices down quickly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Following a small kerfuffle in 1921, Ireland != UK.

    That boat has sailed. The standard is DVB-T MPEG4.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    Y

    At least in the UK, we have cheap SD Freeview boxes on sale for less than 30 quid

    It's called product dumping. Those are obsolete. People should now only buy an "Freeview HD" box in UK. Under £45 already!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    watty wrote: »
    It's called product dumping. Those are obsolete. People should now only buy an "Freeview HD" box in UK. Under £45 already!

    There are of course many people in the UK who neither want, nor would benfit from having a Freeview HD box (I've yet to see them for sale at £45) i.e. viewers who have SD TVs, CRT or otherwise.

    Likewise in the ROI. Personally, I think people are being a little optomoistic in imagining there will be Saorview compatable HD boxes for sale in the ROI at 50 Euros late 2012. Nor do we know which UK Freeview boxes have or have not compatability issues with Saorview.

    The whole thing's a dog's dinner in my opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    watty wrote: »
    YEs, there is also certified Walker TVs.

    Samsung and Sony seem to have some Saorview certtified TV's now too while Triax have STB's

    No Saorview certified DVD recorders though. Indeed going by the Saorview website they seem remarkably reluctant to admit that such things even exist :rolleyes:

    According to Wikipedia. Poland, Hungary Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are now using MPEG4 (not sure about MHEG5) for all DTT transmissions. Do DVD recorders sold in these countries have MPEG4 tuners ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    There are of course many people in the UK who neither want, nor would benfit from having a Freeview HD box (I've yet to see them for sale at £45) i.e. viewers who have SD TVs, CRT or otherwise.

    Krystel DVBT2 Freeview HD receiver on Amazon and ebay made by Vestel for £44.98.

    SD is dead, HD is the future. Time to move on


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  • Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,172 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    If Retailers properly label stock and stop importing incompatible obsolete "dumped" product there is no problem.

    If that were the case, all retailers would only have Walker TV's in stock, since these are the only ones certified.

    The upcoming Sony and Samsung 2011 range will be certified too of course (still should've had 2010 range certed IMO), but these aren't on the market yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    byte wrote: »
    If that were the case, all retailers would only have Walker TV's in stock, since these are the only ones certified.

    I think the EU comission might have something to say about that ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Tesco still selling tv's not fit for purpose-saw them with a 40 inch on special offer yesterday with freeview plastered all over the boxes.
    A lot of confusion amongst Joe Public regarding Saorview and half baked news articles won't help plus,believe it or not a lot of people don't care about saorview compatibility,it's the idea of getting a cheap telly that appeals to them.
    Unless a proper public information campaign is launched soon this public apathy will continue.It's all well and good having a website dedicated to the service but what's the point if people don't even know what to look for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 403 ✭✭holidaysong


    A lot more tweets on twitter showing up when you search for 'Saorview' in the last couple of days.

    Going to be so much rubbish being spouted in the next few weeks.

    This is just the calm before the storm but a couple of tweets I've seen so far:

    "The compulsory "Saorview" digital upgrade costs €100. Classic Irish misnomer."

    "Not a hope of Saorview ever taking off the way they'll want it to. Half the country will end up having both a Saorview and Freeview "


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Early adopters will always pay more-the launch of freeview in the UK was the same but now you can buy stb's in any supermarket for buttons.But all people saw from the news was that it's gona cost €100 to get RTE.Lack of knowledge will turn into "do not want" until the info is sorted out sharpish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    byte wrote: »
    If that were the case, all retailers would only have Walker TV's in stock, since these are the only ones certified.

    The upcoming Sony and Samsung 2011 range will be certified too of course (still should've had 2010 range certed IMO), but these aren't on the market yet.

    There are plenty of sets that work without the obsolete models being dumped here that don't work at all.

    At the very least there is NO excuse for the TOTAL LACK of proper labelling since 2008 of sets that don't work at all!

    Why are major chains refusing to stock "Freeview HD" TVs and Boxes here, yet selling basic "Freeview" DVD recorders and "Freeview" only with no MPEG4?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,969 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    According to Wikipedia. Poland, Hungary Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are now using MPEG4 (not sure about MHEG5) for all DTT transmissions. Do DVD recorders sold in these countries have MPEG4 tuners ?

    Add to that list Norway, Sweden, Denmark, France, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc.

    The UK and Ireland are the only European countries using MHEG-5, the rest use MHP.

    This is a link to the Norwegian RiksTV website, certified products webpage - http://www.rikstv.no/Produkter2/Mottaksutstyr/Alle-godkjente-HD-mottakere2/ . Norway DTT launched with DVB-T/MPEG-4 in Sept 2007.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Technically a DVD recorder with MPEG4 tuner is pointless without transcoding. You need BD recorder anyway for HD.

    DVDs that have MPEG4 and worse HD, are not strict DVD video. They are DVD stored files.

    The point is that such recorders will only work via SCART after 2012. It make more sense to either buy HDD set-box that's almost compatible ("freeview HD" PVR), or a "Freeview HD" PVR with BD recorder/player.

    But people are NOT being warned and allowed to make informed decision. The same Chains are selling such "Freeview HD" products in N.I., which doesn't get HD till end 2012, yet refuse to sell them here, where while not certified, they do actually work, yet they sell the "Freeview" stuff without warning, most of which doesn't work.

    Also note the packaging! The "Freeview" labels are often NOT printed on the card box, but stuck on separate labels. Is it SO hard to stick proper labels for Ireland with spec being out since Feb 2008?

    I'm not arguing that only Certified or Compatible products should be sold. I'm arguing that since LATE 2008 at latest, EVERY product with a Tuner should have been labelled correctly. As was requested by Government in March 2008!


  • Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,172 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    watty wrote: »
    There are plenty of sets that work without the obsolete models being dumped here that don't work at all.

    At the very least there is NO excuse for the TOTAL LACK of proper labelling since 2008 of sets that don't work at all!

    Why are major chains refusing to stock "Freeview HD" TVs and Boxes here, yet selling basic "Freeview" DVD recorders and "Freeview" only with no MPEG4?
    I dunno about major chains, but I'd think that many independants are now pretty savvy on what's needed now, and reluctant of any backlash from selling incompatible hardware. I'd doubt they can afford not to be aware!

    There are, of course, many brand names that now work with Saorview (unofficially, like Sony, Samsung, LG), but only Walker are currently certified (until the new breeds of Samsung and Sony hit the market).

    Anyway...
    Any word on Panasonic in this regard?

    To date, I don't know of any DVD/HDD recorders available on the Irish market capable of MPEG4/MHEG5.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    tlaavtech wrote: »
    ATM, the only certified Saorview equipment is an STB - No need for conspiracy theories about Walker.
    Simply incorrect and uninformed. As watty said Walker also import and distribute a range of Saorview certified TVs.
    Whether they paid for certification on each indvididual receiver seems unlikely for such a small company.
    Equally are the big manufacturers with such large and ever changing ranges all that bothered with certification when they are currently quite happpily selling wihout it and their only competition on the certification market is a relative unknown. Could every significant model change imply a recertification requirement? Certification seems to be an afterthought for most of the big manufacturers
    And depite the difference in Irish vs UK analog sets, certification was never necessary to get one that worked in the past. Does it have genuine merit or is it another license label the consumer ends up paying for?
    Convince me.
    tlaavtech wrote: »
    This is the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) phase of the campaign.
    Are you aware there is any particular information/marketing strategy being adopted?
    I sometimes wonder if people get their "clever" acronyms muddled. Perhaps someone is hoping that People are simply stupid (PASS) or PEBSAT (Problem exists between sofa and TV) and will gratefully and unnecessarily throw their bailout destined euros on overpriced underspecced stbs just to continue receiving the "free" licenced service they have availed of without interuption for 50 years.

    In the past twenty years how many people went in to a retailer and said can I have a 625 line 60 Hz PAL I compatible TV please - that level of complexity is simply anoraksic. Intentionally overly-complex solutions to simple tasks are just simply ridiculous.
    tlaavtech wrote: »
    Start throwing in MHEG5 compatibility and people will stop listening.
    And rightly so. For the majority of people it remains a somewhat overstated gimmick they can happily survive (as they do already) without unless some bright spark decides to render viewing of the basic service functionally impossible without it.
    I and many more currently quite happily ignore pressing the sky red button to view behind the scenes footage of the x-factor also rans.
    Why would it suddenly become indispensable to me just coz it's RTE innit. Just because it is new doesnt imply it is clever.
    For the new big screen living room TV experience fine, but for the far greater number of bedroom and kitchen units - unnecessary complexity just pleading to revenue strapped marketing execs - use me abuse me.

    For most purchases I reckon the following questions should sufice if confirmed.
    Can it receive all the new Irish HD digital channels?
    Has it got the connections I need?
    Does it do that programme guide, teletext, MHEGGY you know what I mean thing?
    Walter? soarview? no what's the best price you will do on the Sony/Samsung/LG/

    Really loving:rolleyes: the (digiflippin) RTE NL brochure about receiving DT.
    8 pages 7 of which devoted to aerials.:eek:
    How informative:rolleyes: Wonder if they will produce an aerial guide with 7 pages on DTT?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    In the past twenty years how many people went in to a retailer and said can I have a 625 line 60 Hz PAL I compatible TV please -

    Only Brazil used that spec I think, PAL N = 60Hz. PAL I = 50Hz

    In the past there were fewer UK chains selling incompatible UK TVs (ones with no VHF) and more local TV shops (mostly gone in Cities).

    There are HUGELY more variations with Digital than with Analogue. A Certification scheme is needed, especially since it's obvious the Major retailers (All UK chains + Harvey Norman also Foreign) are deliberately not labelling incompatible stock since 2008, ignoring Government direction and mis-informing the Public (The dishonest MPEG2 TV campaign).

    MHEG5 isn't as optional as Teletext, nor just a Teletext replacement.
    HE-AAC isn't optional.

    There are a lot more nuances to get right with Digtial than Analogue. All "Freeview HD" sets (TVs and set-box) do more or less "work", far better than "generic" DVB-T MPEG4 HD stuff, but vary in total compatibility in some details.

    Many totally unsuitable Set-boxes that don't actually work, sold in Ireland as Saorview or Irish Digital Compatible that turn out to not actually work http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/the-black-list/

    Look at different issues with some Philips and Panasonic models with DVB-T, MPEG4, HD and MHEG5. Many Panasonic models definitely NOT compatible, even though MPEG4, MHEG5 and HD!

    Also NO-ONE can say a box or TV is Saorview compatible without certification. They risk legal action.

    No-one can claim a TV or Box is fully 100% Irish Digital Compatible (and won't have problems next year or whenever even if it seems to do all in the shop today) unless it meets the Saorview Spec. But without 3rd part test how do you know?

    If you sell a TV or set-box or recorder as "fully 100% Irish Digital Compatible" today and it turns out that it is not in three years time, you as the seller are 100% liable for Damages under the "Sale of Goods" act. The Manufacturer isn't involved, unless you the Retailer can prove the Manufacturer misled you, then you have sue in civil case. No "Sale of Goods" act protection for Retailers for purchasers from Wholesale or Direct from manufacturer.

    Saorview Certification protects the Retailer.

    In volumes of TVs sold (maybe over 150,000 a year) the certification costs while too high (due to choice of Teracom) are not impossible. It's possible the short term demand (next 2 years) for set-box conversions could 500,000. After 2013 the main demand will be for PVRs only, not "dumb" tuner only set boxes. Next year there will be more "home cinema" and standalone PVRs that have dual tuners, Hard Drive, Ethernet and BD recorder to back up content and play CD/DVD/BluRay disks. There are a few "Freesat HD" and "Freeview HD" models (which "work" here, but no-one sells them here), though these are expensive.

    I don't expect to ever see a sensible properly compatible Freesat HD + Saorview Combo PVR. The market will be too small once Saorsat is available.


    I believe most of the delay was scepticism that Ireland really is finally launching a service. Those are big lists from Samsung and Sony.
    http://www.saortv.info/2011/03/16/information-live/


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭tlaavtech


    wil wrote: »
    Simply incorrect and uninformed. As watty said Walker also import and distribute a range of Saorview certified TVs.
    Whether they paid for certification on each indvididual receiver seems unlikely for such a small company.

    Agreed - I forgot about the dreadful looking 19" LDC/DVD combo.
    And depite the difference in Irish vs UK analog sets, certification was never necessary to get one that worked in the past. Does it have genuine merit or is it another license label the consumer ends up paying for?
    Convince me.

    Ask someone who bought a Picnic box, or anyone who bought a Freeview compatible TV in Tesco thinking it would work here. People who just want to watch telly want to know that the box (STB or TV) they bring home will work. RTENL and the helpline telephone people want to be able to say "It isn't Saorview certified, so it's not our fault that you can't get teletext"

    The market here is messed up enouigh at the moment, think how bad it would be if there was no certification. Digital Chaos. Not having a certification system would be unforgivable.
    In the past twenty years how many people went in to a retailer and said can I have a 625 line 60 Hz PAL I compatible TV please - that level of complexity is simply anoraksic. Intentionally overly-complex solutions to simple tasks are just simply ridiculous.

    That's the point I was making. Instead of asking for a TV with all the proper specs, you ask for a certified one. Simples.
    I and many more currently quite happily ignore pressing the sky red button to view behind the scenes footage of the x-factor also rans.

    I'm alright Jack. The rang of red button services (from the BBC) is so diverse, that everone will likely watch it at some stage. From Proms concert to sport to world news events. The stuff under the red button is niche - that's why it's on the red button. But that doesn't mean no one ever watches.

    For Joe Bloggs certification is a must.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The main benefit of certification is the fact that future firmware upgrades will be downloaded off air. It happens now for Freeview sets in the UK. Even the dreaded Picnic box had a download recently. That will not happen with non-certified product.

    In the future, RTE may decide to implement some feature deep in the spec that requires modification for some sets, and that can be sorted by a download over the air. An example could be the Philips radio blip that was sorted by RTE but could have required a firmware upgrade, or the Panasonic G10B fiasco that is still there.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Regarding spec's,there should be no need for RTENL to be awkwardly different
    They've gone the mpeg4 route and theres plenty of merit in that.
    But now they should be looking at what mpeg4 sets are available at the moment and working with what they can handle and not something way off field.

    That would make sense no?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The only difference to about 20 other countries is use of MHEG5 instead of MHP. Which makes sense since it's more advanced, cheaper and on ALL CI+ sets (as well as MHP) and used by Freesat and Freeview.

    South Africa is also using MHEG5, MPEG4 and DVB-T2

    All DVB-T2 sets do DVB-T

    RTE joined Nordig as it's the best Association of DVB-T / DVB-T2 broadcasters/Countries in Europe. The only "Freeview" Member is UK. I doubt RTE would have got a "seat" on that like Ireland has on nordig?

    see http://www.nordig.org/qa_background.htm

    EU mandates all TVs above a certain size have CI, that is to change to CI+, so soon ALL tvs more than about 14" I think (not sure) will have to have MHEG5 in EU.

    MPEG4 is the standard in all of Europe for HD (Cable, Satellite and Terrestrial) and many countries also for SD.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    What we need is the UK to join Nordig.

    There was talk of the UK and Irelad getting together over hardware harmonisation following the MoU. Do not know if anything happened about it.

    A joint certification of Freeview HD sets would help solve all these problems. Adjust the UK D book to be Nordig compatible - it's not far off but enough to be awkward.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    That would make sense (best suggestion you ever made? :) ). It would really amount to clarification and stop idiocies like Panasonic's where they have interpreted the D-Book too literally.

    The changes to EXISTING "freeview HD" would be minor and can be done by the OTA update that all "Freeview HD" must support already.

    It's not RTE that's the problem. But UK chains in Ireland and Importers/Distributors coupled with lack of clarification of compatibility and extra features in the D Book.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Butch Cassidy


    copacetic wrote: »
    I think people are reading too much in to it, the report was the first such one and was aimed at giving people the basic requirements. A box is the cheapest/easiest way for anyone with an older TV currently receiving analogue off air to get saorview instead.

    The last thing you want is for people to get any kind of impression that everyone will need a new TV.

    The box in the report looked to have a saorview logo, the only one that does, so not much option which one to show at the moment?


    As was mentioned the other last thing we want is people forking out €100 a box when they may have a TV capable of recieving Saorview anyway.

    At the least people should be told that their TV may be capable of recieving these channels.
    watty wrote: »
    YEs, there is also certified Walker TVs.

    The Info campaign must not talk about MPEG4, MHEG5 etc. There are TV/DVD combos that advertise MPEG4. Nothing to do with TV reception. PC file playback.

    Almost no compatible TV mentions MHEG5 in shop adverts. All "Freeview" stuff does MHEG5 and most "Freeview" doesn't work (esp. set-box). But all "Freeview HD" does "work" including MHEG5.

    Unfortunately given the small range of Models today the ONLY thing the Official Campaign can mention is Saorview certified compatibility.

    The retailers told in 2008 to inform shoppers about DTT and label TVs correctly. The NSA, CAI and ASAI needs to take action.

    If Retailers properly label stock and stop importing incompatible obsolete "dumped" product there is no problem.


    See http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/for-retailers/


    Is Powercity the best for info? Their little spec cards say if it has MHEG5 and also "Irish DTT compatible". Are you saying they shouldn't be displaying this piece of info on non-Walker TVs?
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Once RTE confirm that RTE HD will not be offered on SKY that will galvanise the market :)

    This is a very good point. However, I am skeptical about the vast majority of people's knowledge of HD. I have experienced many saying "oh look I bought a HDTV now I have HD" when they are not using a HD cable or a HD source. However, it should definitely be made a selling point. You can get HD rugby on BBC but their commentating is crap. GAA in HD should appeal to many. There's a battle here to be had with Sky, they're out in every shopping centre selling HD boxes but are the sales people informing the consumer that they won't be getting RTE in HD?

    This has always been a problem with technology in the sense that not everyone who "consumes" is tech-savvy. New technologies succeed primarily on the basis of convenience not purely because it's a new technology - how many went out and bought flat panel TVs because they were smaller and wall mountable vs. how many bought said TVs because of HD?

    As a side note you can of course also get free HD channels in the form of ITV/STVHD and BBC HD free via freesat. This information should be made available imo.
    tlaavtech wrote: »
    True, but that does rely on the reporter having a genuine knowledge of the topic :P

    I think that Saorview have to be seen to promote the "Saorview Approved" hardware to keep credibility, but there are approved TV's which was not mentioned in the report according to the quotes above. I'm not saying that the report was completely accurate, but I think they were right to err on the side of simplicity rather than confuse things - we'll let the staff in the shops do that.

    Will someone remember exactly what was said in the report? Not likely. The aim of a report like that is to make people go to the web-site or the local shop where the proper options will be outlined. Get people thinking about DSO - that's the real thrust of the report.


    I do agree that "Saorview certified" is a must but why are MPEG4 compatible TVs not getting certified? Is Saorview too small to organise this? Are the retailers/distributors/manufacturers not interested? A combo of the above?
    watty wrote: »
    Only Brazil used that spec I think, PAL N = 60Hz. PAL I = 50Hz

    In the past there were fewer UK chains selling incompatible UK TVs (ones with no VHF) and more local TV shops (mostly gone in Cities).

    There are HUGELY more variations with Digital than with Analogue. A Certification scheme is needed, especially since it's obvious the Major retailers (All UK chains + Harvey Norman also Foreign) are deliberately not labelling incompatible stock since 2008, ignoring Government direction and mis-informing the Public (The dishonest MPEG2 TV campaign).

    MHEG5 isn't as optional as Teletext, nor just a Teletext replacement.
    HE-AAC isn't optional.

    There are a lot more nuances to get right with Digtial than Analogue. All "Freeview HD" sets (TVs and set-box) do more or less "work", far better than "generic" DVB-T MPEG4 HD stuff, but vary in total compatibility in some details.

    Many totally unsuitable Set-boxes that don't actually work, sold in Ireland as Saorview or Irish Digital Compatible that turn out to not actually work http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/the-black-list/

    Look at different issues with some Philips and Panasonic models with DVB-T, MPEG4, HD and MHEG5. Many Panasonic models definitely NOT compatible, even though MPEG4, MHEG5 and HD!

    Also NO-ONE can say a box or TV is Saorview compatible without certification. They risk legal action.

    No-one can claim a TV or Box is fully 100% Irish Digital Compatible (and won't have problems next year or whenever even if it seems to do all in the shop today) unless it meets the Saorview Spec. But without 3rd part test how do you know?

    If you sell a TV or set-box or recorder as "fully 100% Irish Digital Compatible" today and it turns out that it is not in three years time, you as the seller are 100% liable for Damages under the "Sale of Goods" act. The Manufacturer isn't involved, unless you the Retailer can prove the Manufacturer misled you, then you have sue in civil case. No "Sale of Goods" act protection for Retailers for purchasers from Wholesale or Direct from manufacturer.

    Saorview Certification protects the Retailer.

    With regards to the Sale of Goods act (one of the best pieces of legislation of its type in recent decades) people are treated like stupid morons. Warranties offered that are not needed. Look at the scandal that happened with the current generation of video games consoles. The internet has shown people were ripped off sold goods that did not last and many have been duped into dealing with a manufacturer and paying for a repair when they are legally covered by the Act.

    I don't expect to ever see a sensible properly compatible Freesat HD + Saorview Combo PVR. The market will be too small once Saorsat is available.

    The market is everyone currently paying for their + box. It makes little or no sense imo for someone to pay Sky or UPC a monthly bill when the majority of the channels they watch they could be watching for free - unless of course they really want all them channels with loads of adsplaying reruns, the useless movie channels, the kids channels or the documentary channels. If people were properly informed they would make the rational efficient decision ie. to ditch PayTV and use only Soarview + Freesat.

    What happened to the idea competition was a good thing and produced the best results etc? If people believe in competition combined box should be out to compete with Murdoch/UPC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    As was mentioned the other last thing we want is people forking out €100 a box when they may have a TV capable of recieving Saorview anyway.

    At the least people should be told that their TV may be capable of recieving these channels.
    If people already have a TV all they have to do is do a "Digital Scan". Over 90%, probably in reality more decent coverage than Analogue.

    But not than many existing TVs. I'd say 2% to 10%, or much less than 1/3rd of TVs bought in last two years. The proportion would have been higher if the public had been informed as requested, but not enforced by Government, in March 2008.

    There has been a deliberate policy to shift as much obsolete product in Ireland. Some models in major UK stores here obsolete over 2 years.

    All Freeview TVs (even if Full HD) are obsolescent since December 2009 with launch of "Freeview HD" in UK. Savvey UK folk will only buy "Freeview HD" gear now, even if they are in an area that doesn't get "HD" till end 2012. All "Freeview HD" gear works with "Freeview" and better with "Saorview" than Generic stuff without MHEG5. It all does MPEG4, DVB-T (as well as DVB-T2) and MHEG5. The incompatibilities when they do exist are minor.


    Is Powercity the best for info? Their little spec cards say if it has MHEG5 and also "Irish DTT compatible". Are you saying they shouldn't be displaying this piece of info on non-Walker TVs?
    They should simply say
    "Works with" or "Compatible With Irish Digital TV". They can't say Saorview unless it's Certified. If it doesn't have MHEG5, it's not compatible as MHEG5 is a mandatory part of spec.
    Most importantly they should clearly identify which are also "Freeview HD" (for Border area users after 2012) and which are NOT compatible.
    see http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/for-retailers/

    MHEG5 is not just Text. It's an Application Engine for Over the Air Applications and data.
    This is a very good point. However, I am skeptical about the vast majority of people's knowledge of HD. I have experienced many saying "oh look I bought a HDTV now I have HD" when they are not using a HD cable or a HD source. However, it should definitely be made a selling point. You can get HD rugby on BBC but their commentating is crap. GAA in HD should appeal to many. There's a battle here to be had with Sky, they're out in every shopping centre selling HD boxes but are the sales people informing the consumer that they won't be getting RTE in HD?

    Sky and UPC will have RTE HD, when Sky want to have it. But it will be "later".


    I do agree that "Saorview certified" is a must but why are MPEG4 compatible TVs not getting certified? Is Saorview too small to organise this? Are the retailers/distributors/manufacturers not interested? A combo of the above?

    It's purely up to Distributors, Manufacturers etc. You have to pay because Teracom is an expensive lab and it's time consuming. They don't just plug in an Aerial and flick through channels. It's very involved and doesn't even use a real aerial or off air transmission.

    Only new models will get certified, that's why most manufacturers have waited till launch or just after launch. Apart from the doubt people had that Launch was real. No-one is going to pay for Certification of Models not actually getting made any more or due to be phased out.


    With regards to the Sale of Goods act (one of the best pieces of legislation of its type in recent decades) people are treated like stupid morons. Warranties offered that are not needed. Look at the scandal that happened with the current generation of video games consoles. The internet has shown people were ripped off sold goods that did not last and many have been duped into dealing with a manufacturer and paying for a repair when they are legally covered by the Act.

    Absolutely... and as for the Rip off of "insurance" that two leading UK retailers urge you to buy. :(

    The market is everyone currently paying for their + box. It makes little or no sense imo for someone to pay Sky or UPC a monthly bill when the majority of the channels they watch they could be watching for free - unless of course they really want all them channels with loads of adsplaying reruns, the useless movie channels, the kids channels or the documentary channels. If people were properly informed they would make the rational efficient decision ie. to ditch PayTV and use only Soarview + Freesat.

    What happened to the idea competition was a good thing and produced the best results etc? If people believe in competition combined box should be out to compete with Murdoch/UPC.

    The doctrine of Competition helping consumer is false. Companies and Consumers are only Rational, not Super Rational. Google "Prisoner's Dilemma" and "Game Theory". Nothing to do with Games or Prisoners.

    You need "regulation" and enforcement of it as well as Competition.

    ASAI, CAI and NSA are pretty useless on Consumer Electronics and Tech claims
    "Mobile Broadband" Doesn't exist, It's Mobile Internet.
    "Digital Aerials" Don't exist
    "Super quality RJ11 Modem cables" at €30. Two Euro Cat3 RJ11 cord no different. There is 100m to 5km of very cheap Cat3 cable between you and exchange.
    "digital" Earphones
    Gold on SCART, yet the wires are not coax for the video and audio. Just a cheap bundle of wires.
    HDMI cables are almost as as cheap to make as USB or Cat5e Network patch cord and 1/5th of cost to make as cheap SCART.
    Gold must be on both halves, plug and socket or the Gold and Irish Damp will cause damage to non-gold parts.
    Fake Warranties and Insurance that are irrelevant.
    Non returnable items, even in Sale can be returned if defective. Even underwear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    MPEG4 is the standard in all of Europe for HD (Cable, Satellite and Terrestrial) and many countries also for SD.

    But not the standard for SD in the U.K. which is the ROI's closest neighbour and trading partner.

    I'll wait with baited breath to see if there cheap HD or SD MPeg 4 Saorview compatable STBs for sale in the ROI at the end of next year.

    Incidently, has anyonew done any market research on how exactly aware the ROI viewing public are with what is and what isn't Saorview compliant, and how they can even receive Saorview ?

    For example, does anyone know what percentage of ROI viewers are actually watching Saorview at present, or indeed, are even aware of it's existence, or what they'll have to do after Nov. next year if they want to continue watching TV ?

    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,445 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The SD only TVS and boxes in UK are now Obsolete as their "Freeview HD" gear does MPEG4 and MPEG2, SD and HD, DVB-T and DVB-T2.

    MPEG2 is a waste and obsolete. You would have half as many channels or twice the Spectrum.

    There has been some not very good research.

    The Information Campaign only started this week, so too soon for more research.


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