Interventionist God

Desert Rose · 22-03-2011 5:23pm

How would you explain Mark 4:35-41 where it says Jesus rebuked the wind in the storm?

PDN · 22-03-2011 6:10pm

Desert Rose wrote: »

How would you explain Mark 4:35-41 where it says Jesus rebuked the wind in the storm?

Jesus commanded the wind to cease and it ceased. I'm not sure what there is to explain?

Desert Rose · 22-03-2011 6:14pm

I am just curious to know why the word "rebuked" is used... God didn't cause the storm (or natural disasters).

PDN · 22-03-2011 6:19pm

Desert Rose wrote: »

I am just curious to know why the word "rebuked" is used... God didn't cause the storm (or natural disasters).

Ah, I see.

The word 'rebuke' is, in the Greek, epitimao. It means that you rebuke someone in the sense that you tell them to stop whatever it is that they are doing.

Jesus told the wind to stop what it was doing (ie blowing).

Desert Rose · 22-03-2011 6:40pm

PDN wrote: »

Ah, I see.

The word 'rebuke' is, in the Greek, epitimao. It means that you rebuke someone in the sense that you tell them to stop whatever it is that they are doing.

Jesus told the wind to stop what it was doing (ie blowing).

It makes more sense to translate it as telling sth to stop(and giving emphasis to it) rather than showing strong disapproval of sth and then telling it to stop.

himnextdoor · 22-03-2011 8:28pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

The curse was not local floods. It may refer here to the global Flood, or to the special curse after the Fall - so no extra curse to come, despite continuing wickedness.

So no more divine retribution?

All judgement to be saved until the last day?

himnextdoor · 26-03-2011 6:15am

Since Jesus atoned for our sins, how can there be divine judgement in the form of 'natural' disasters?

PDN · 26-03-2011 7:34am

himnextdoor wrote: »

Since Jesus atoned for our sins, how can there be divine judgement in the form of 'natural' disasters?

While I don't believe that natural disasters are judgements, that would not be a contradiction per se.

Jesus atoned for our sins on the Cross, but that forgiveness must be appropriated by faith. If you refuse to put your faith in Jesus and accept the free offer of forgiveness then you still face judgement.

himnextdoor · 26-03-2011 1:25pm

PDN wrote: »

While I don't believe that natural disasters are judgements, that would not be a contradiction per se.

Jesus atoned for our sins on the Cross, but that forgiveness must be appropriated by faith. If you refuse to put your faith in Jesus and accept the free offer of forgiveness then you still face judgement.

I thought that there was not going to be a tally kept of sins and that sin would be expunged from the record then when we are 'called' that we will be seperated into 'sheep and goats'.

I thought that even people who have been dead for a long time are still waiting to be judged.

PDN · 26-03-2011 1:40pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

I thought that there was not going to be a tally kept of sins and that sin would be expunged from the record then when we are 'called' that we will be seperated into 'sheep and goats'

If you have received the Gospel and accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour then absolutely, sin is expunged from the record. But if you reject Him then the record remains intact and you will be judged according to your works.

wolfsbane · 29-03-2011 8:58pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

So no more divine retribution?

All judgement to be saved until the last day?

No. Just no special, on-going curse like at the beginning. God does intervene - all the time, to bring all things to accomplish His goals. No one dies, not even a sparrow, without His say-so. We are never just victims of chance.

But God intervenes in judgement too: He killed Herod for his sin at Caesarea; He killed Christians for their sins at Corinth. The example given of national punishment in the OT still stands - God does not allow the world to get as wicked as it wants, but puts a stop when the His limit is reached.

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Acts 12:21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

wolfsbane · 29-03-2011 9:04pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

Since Jesus atoned for our sins, how can there be divine judgement in the form of 'natural' disasters?

Just to add to PDN:
Our forgiveness did not mean we were translated to the eternal state now. We still live with the consequences of the Fall - sickness and death come to all. Only in eternity will the full redemption be made effective.

And judgements are part of a sinful world.

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Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

himnextdoor · 29-03-2011 11:38pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

No. Just no special, on-going curse like at the beginning. God does intervene - all the time, to bring all things to accomplish His goals. No one dies, not even a sparrow, without His say-so. We are never just victims of chance.

But God intervenes in judgement too: He killed Herod for his sin at Caesarea; He killed Christians for their sins at Corinth. The example given of national punishment in the OT still stands - God does not allow the world to get as wicked as it wants, but puts a stop when the His limit is reached.

So, Jesus atoned for the sins of those Christians at Corinth but God judged them by their sins anyway?

PDN · 29-03-2011 11:43pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

So, Jesus atoned for the sins of those Christians at Corinth but God judged them by their sins anyway?

I think you're confusing two separate issues. Jesus died to save us from the eternal consequences of our sins, but they still have consequences in this life.

I know a guy who committed murder and then subsequently came to faith in Christ. He understood that he must still face the consequences of his actions so, even though he knew he was now saved and forgiven, he went to the police, confessed, and spent a long time in the clink.

clever_name · 30-03-2011 12:05am

PDN wrote: »

If you have received the Gospel and accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour then absolutely, sin is expunged from the record. But if you reject Him then the record remains intact and you will be judged according to your works.

What would happen to those who do not have the option to accept Christ?

I'm just curious about people who live in areas where other religions are dominant and Christ might never be mentioned, if someone has never heard of Christ then they can neither reject or believe in him.

If they lived a good life and believed in a god would that be enough?

himnextdoor · 30-03-2011 4:33am

PDN wrote: »

I think you're confusing two separate issues. Jesus died to save us from the eternal consequences of our sins, but they still have consequences in this life.

I think I must be confused alright.

So, God won't punish us for our sins when we die but can and does so while we live?

Which seems to suggest that God considers sleeping with prostitutes a worse sin than genocide or peadophilia.

PDN wrote: »

I know a guy who committed murder and then subsequently came to faith in Christ. He understood that he must still face the consequences of his actions so, even though he knew he was now saved and forgiven, he went to the police, confessed, and spent a long time in the clink.

I knew someone who had an accident that should have killed him. He was in a coma for ages but recovered and lived another ten years or so. Before the accident he was what I would describe as a 'bad man' and had he died in the accident then I'm sure that he would have gone to hell, if it exists.

However, after he recovered he was a changed man and he became of good service to his community. By the time he died he had, in my opinion, earned a place in heaven, if it exists.

Why didn't the Christians at Corinth get that same opportunity for change?

(Rhetorical question; noone knows.)

PDN · 30-03-2011 6:58am

clever_name wrote: »

What would happen to those who do not have the option to accept Christ?

I'm just curious about people who live in areas where other religions are dominant and Christ might never be mentioned, if someone has never heard of Christ then they can neither reject or believe in him.

If they lived a good life and believed in a god would that be enough?

We've covered this many times in other threads in this forum, so I'm very loath to go down that rabbit trail as it invariably pulls us off topic.

The short answer is that we don't know for sure, as the Bible says very little on that subject. All we can do is trust God to be both just and merciful.

If you want to discuss it in more detail then please start a new thread or resurrect one of the old ones rather than pulling this one off topic. Thanks!

PDN · 30-03-2011 7:13am

himnextdoor wrote: »

I think I must be confused alright.

So, God won't punish us for our sins when we die but can and does so while we live?

Which seems to suggest that God considers sleeping with prostitutes a worse sin than genocide or peadophilia.

The Bible undoubtedly speaks of occasions where people do receive judgements from God in this life, but generally we see that these acts of temporal judgement are rare and inconsistent. For example, King Herod may be struck down because of his pride, yet the majority of rulers who are even more proud and arrogant get to die peacefully in their beds.

So the judgement after death is where people really receive what they deserve. (Except. of course, those who have been saved by grace who receive a totally undeserved salvation).

Generally the rare punishments from God we see in this life appear to fall into two categories:
1) An example to warn others away from such behaviour.
2) An act of mercy towards God's covenant people (Jews in the OT, Christians in the NT) to lead them back to a godly lifestyle. God disciplines those whom He loves.

However, after he recovered he was a changed man and he became of good service to his community. By the time he died he had, in my opinion, earned a place in heaven, if it exists.

That might be your opinion, but it is irrelevant on a Christianity Forum or to this discussion, since no-one earns a place in heaven.

Why didn't the Christians at Corinth get that same opportunity for change?

We all get opportunities for change. Some get more than others. The key is to take the opportunities we have.

himnextdoor · 30-03-2011 3:14pm

PDN wrote: »

The Bible undoubtedly speaks of occasions where people do receive judgements from God in this life, but generally we see that these acts of temporal judgement are rare and inconsistent. For example, King Herod may be struck down because of his pride, yet the majority of rulers who are even more proud and arrogant get to die peacefully in their beds.

So the judgement after death is where people really receive what they deserve. (Except. of course, those who have been saved by grace who receive a totally undeserved salvation).

Do I detect just a touch of resentment?

PDN wrote: »

Generally the rare punishments from God we see in this life appear to fall into two categories:
1) An example to warn others away from such behaviour.
2) An act of mercy towards God's covenant people (Jews in the OT, Christians in the NT) to lead them back to a godly lifestyle. God disciplines those whom He loves.

???

Can you point to any modern (post-Christian) examples?

PDN wrote: »

That might be your opinion, but it is irrelevant on a Christianity Forum or to this discussion, since no-one earns a place in heaven.

Not relevant?

I relate an anecdote that may indicate to some that God intervenes in order to provide an opportunity for repentance and it's not relevant? Then you indicate that noone attains heaven on merit; that good works do not 'earn' salvation.

And yet:

PDN wrote: »

I know a guy who committed murder and then subsequently came to faith in Christ. He understood that he must still face the consequences of his actions so, even though he knew he was now saved and forgiven, he went to the police, confessed, and spent a long time in the clink.

Relevance?

How did he know he was 'saved and forgiven' if a place in heaven cannot be earned?

PDN wrote: »

We all get opportunities for change. Some get more than others. The key is to take the opportunities we have.

Your God plays favorites? Are we not equal in the eyes of God?

PDN · 30-03-2011 3:28pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

Do I detect just a touch of resentment?

No. Probably better to address the points in a post rather than making personal assumptions about what you imagine you detect.

Can you point to any modern (post-Christian) examples?

Post-Christian? Christians are still here.

One modern example would be an incident I heard of in China where a prison guard was torturing a Christian and taunted the prisoner saying, "If your God is real then why doesn't he stop me torturing you?" A few seconds later he dropped down dead. The other prison guards were remarkably civil to the Christian prisoners after that.

Relevance?

How did he know he was 'saved and forgiven' if a place in heaven cannot be earned?

It's relevant because we are discussing Christian views of judgement both in this life and eternally.

He knew he was 'saved and forgiven' because the New Testament tells us that is the condition of those who have repented and put their faith in Christ.

Your God plays favorites? Are we not equal in the eyes of God?

No, nobody said He plays favourites. But the decisions we make, and that others around us make, mean that we all face vastly different circumstances and opportunities. I certainly don't believe that everybody receives precisely the same amount of opportunities.

himnextdoor · 30-03-2011 3:44pm

PDN wrote: »

One modern example would be an incident I heard of in China where a prison guard was torturing a Christian and taunted the prisoner saying, "If your God is real then why doesn't he stop me torturing you?" A few seconds later he dropped down dead. The other prison guards were remarkably civil to the Christian prisoners after that.

Right so. Case closed.

Boulevardier · 30-03-2011 4:06pm

Surely there is more than one Christian idea about being "saved and forgiven"?

These ideas range from, on the one hand, the views of the great theologian Pelagius, who taught that "original sin" counts for very little against good works and good intentions, and on the other hand, those of Calvin who taught something very like strict predestination, in which desire for forgiveness or salvation counts for nothing if one is not one of the elect.

himnextdoor · 30-03-2011 4:37pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

Surely there is more than one Christian idea about being "saved and forgiven"?

These ideas range from, on the one hand, the views of the great theologian Pelagius, who taught that "original sin" counts for very little against good works and good intentions, and on the other hand, those of Calvin who taught something very like strict predestination, in which desire for forgiveness or salvation counts for nothing if one is not one of the elect.

Yes, it should be regarded as suspicious that there is no concensus especially when you consider that all Christianity is derived from the same rule-book.

It seems incredible that at least about a half of all Christians are wrong and yet the interventionist God does nothing. His message has been corrupted by the leaders of around a billion souls and He does nothing.

Why should anyone believe that God is interventionist? He so obviously and demonstrably is not.

PDN · 30-03-2011 4:52pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

Yes, it should be regarded as suspicious that there is no concensus especially when you consider that all Christianity is derived from the same rule-book.

It would be, if the Bible were a rule-book (which it isn't).

It seems incredible that at least about a half of all Christians are wrong and yet the interventionist God does nothing. His message has been corrupted by the leaders of around a billion souls and He does nothing.

What would like him to do - zap with lightning anyone who chooses to reject His Word?

Why should anyone believe that God is interventionist? He so obviously and demonstrably is not.

Not so. Nobody has demonstrated any such thing.

Fanny Cradock · 30-03-2011 5:16pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

Right so. Case closed.

You asked for and example, you got it. Nobody was trying to close the "case".

himnextdoor · 30-03-2011 5:32pm

PDN wrote: »

It would be, if the Bible were a rule-book (which it isn't).

I'll remember that you said that.

PDN wrote: »

What would like him to do - zap with lightning anyone who chooses to reject His Word?

If Protestant priests are leading people away from salvation by means of perverting Jesus' word, which is the case as far as Catholicism is concerned, then yes! someone should damn well get 'zapped'.

PDN wrote: »

Not so. Nobody has demonstrated any such thing.

Whereas an uncorroborated account of a Christian torture victim's experience is evidence of intervention.

A just and merciful God turns a blind eye to genocide, mass-murder, paedophilia, putting countless mortal souls in jeopardy but reacts violently to prostitution, being Indonesian or Japanese and other such terrible sins?

Either God is not just and merciful or God is non-interventionist. Pick one.

himnextdoor · 30-03-2011 5:37pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You asked for and example, you got it. Nobody was trying to close the "case".

How does that help?

Fanny Cradock · 30-03-2011 5:48pm

How does what help? I'm attempting to put you straight. You asked a question, and you got a answer. Whether you think it was satisfactory or not doesn't mean that you were justified in implying that the provision of an answer was an attempt to close the case.

Fanny Cradock · 30-03-2011 5:49pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

Either God is not just and merciful or God is non-interventionist. Pick one.

Tell me, do you still beat your wife? Yes or no!

himnextdoor · 30-03-2011 5:57pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Tell me, do you still beat your wife? Yes or no!

I discipline her because I love her.

Interventionist God

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