Poll: The "T" word

deirdre_dub

I was thinking about Johnny's latest post in the trans resources, and what is said there about the word "tranny".

My personal feeling is that that word is always offensive. Why? Because when I come across an idiot on the street who wants to offend me, they usually use that word, hence I conclude it is meant to be offensive.

When I use that word on myself, I am being self-deprecating. When I use it on my trans friends, I am being gently offensive to them in the same way as I would be if I called them a boll*x.

However, I find that it has a particular sting when I hear it being used by a cis person against me. When a trans person uses that word against me, I know that they are not using it in the same way as an idiot on the street would use it. However, when a cis person uses it, I don't know if they are being gently offensive (as above) or if they are trying to emulate one of the street idiots I've come across.

What do others think?

Freiheit

Tranny sounds pleb and monosyllabic. I don't object to other t words though such as transgender and transsexual.

It's important to note the way in which it's used though. I never like it, but most people won't intend to cause offence and if they don't I won't be offended. However I still won't like it.

Links234

yeah, it's always offensive, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it either.

it's like when someone in after hours said it, I replied with something tongue in cheek like "hey, that's OUR word! you don't get to use it!"

wonderfulname

I'd never deem it acceptable, then again I wouldn't have a clue, I always saw it as a derogatory term though.

I guess its being "reclaimed" in the same way as queer is?

Links234

wonderfulname wrote: »

I guess its being "reclaimed" in the same way as queer is?

Nah, most trans people wouldn't touch it in my experience

wonderfulname

That's what I figured, must stop running off to t'interweb to satisfy my curiosity...

Meesared

Links234 wrote: »

Nah, most trans people wouldn't touch it in my experience

I know of a few who have!

Maguined

Words are tools and as such they are not inherently offensive or inoffensive, it comes purely from the intention of the person communicating.

Just as guns are not inherently good/evil but as tools can be used to achieve either.

Words express emotions, they have none themselves.

Freiheit

The Tranny Haven Club and website are run by trans people isn't it? so clearly some are happy to use it. But I myself think it sounds illiterate.

Azure_sky

It depends on the context and the intent of the user. I have no problem with another TS using it in a joking way, or indeed a good cis friend. I'd rather strangers didn't use, though I am aware that many don't realise that it's often used in a derogatory sense and as a means of insult. Also it doesn't differentiate between transsexual and transvestite, causing more misconceptions and confusion. Better off without it really.

deirdre_dub

Maguined wrote: »

Just as guns are not inherently good/evil but as tools can be used to achieve either.

Well, I'd rather use the analogy of a speeding bullet rather than a gun. And, whereas a speeding bullet can, indeed, be used for good, unfortunately, being someone whose majority experience of speeding bullets has been bad, unless I know the shooter very well, or unless the shooter is someone I know to have had a similar experience of speeding bullets, I can never tell when its intention is good.

Words express emotions, they have none themselves.

Well, that word, in my experience, has mostly had the intention of expressing a "fsck you" type of emotion, which (intentionally, I believe) engenders emotion in me.

Freiheit wrote: »

The Tranny Haven Club and website are run by trans people isn't it? so clearly some are happy to use it. But I myself think it sounds illiterate.

I see T.H. as an example of using the word in a self-deprecating "let's not take ourselves too seriously" way. Still technically offensive, but "acceptably" so.

Personally I always refer to it as "T.H." or "the club".

baby and crumble

Azure_Sky wrote:

It depends on the context and the intent of the user. I have no problem with another TS using it in a joking way, or indeed a good cis friend. I'd rather strangers didn't use, though I am aware that many don't realise that it's often used in a derogatory sense and as a means of insult.

So what if someone who is cisgendered and has a close friend whom they slag off in a nice way by using 'tranny' used it with you some night when you're all out? Is it offensive then?

Azure_sky

If we're all good friends and slag each other off equally in a good natured way then to be honest I wouldn't find that offensive.

hare05

I don't like it at all, it sounds crass and unappealing no matter who uses it.

Maguined

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Well, I'd rather use the analogy of a speeding bullet rather than a gun. And, whereas a speeding bullet can, indeed, be used for good, unfortunately, being someone whose majority experience of speeding bullets has been bad, unless I know the shooter very well, or unless the shooter is someone I know to have had a similar experience of speeding bullets, I can never tell when its intention is good.

Well, that word, in my experience, has mostly had the intention of expressing a "fsck you" type of emotion, which (intentionally, I believe) engenders emotion in me.

But that is true of all language, you have to judge what everyone says to you whether it is meant with humour, serious offense, anger, snide, benign etc not specifically to this one word.

Even the controversial N word is frequently used in america between african americans themselves, it can be used to insult or it can be used in friendly banter, the word itself is not inherently offensive or humorous but it is how it is applied and expressed that determines the meaning communicated.

Links234

Maguined wrote: »

But that is true of all language, you have to judge what everyone says to you whether it is meant with humour, serious offense, anger, snide, benign etc not specifically to this one word.

Even the controversial N word is frequently used in america between african americans themselves, it can be used to insult or it can be used in friendly banter, the word itself is not inherently offensive or humorous but it is how it is applied and expressed that determines the meaning communicated.

Sure there's examples of offensive language being used in certain contexts where it's deemed acceptable, but those are the exceptions, and that doesn't mean the language itself isn't offensive. Like, a bunch of lads in the pub might call each other all kinds of things during the course of a night on the lash, one lad might call another a stupid ****ing cocksucker, and this is acceptable when there's an understanding, but that understanding is the exception. If the same man calls someone else he doesn't know a stupid ****ing cocksucker, there's only going to be one interpretation because the actual meaning of those words are entirely negative.

Words and language carry meanings, that's a large part of how we communicate. If I ask for pistachio ice cream, it doesn't matter how much I intended or meant to ask for rum & raisin, it'll be taken that I wanted pistachio. Just like it'll be taken that if you say something offensive, it'll be taken that way.

I would say that yes, "the N word" IS inherently offensive, but that there are exceptions.

But lets move onto the word tranny, and why this is offensive. It's almost always used to insult, so the meaning the word has is insulting to begin with. But as well as that, the word also has pornographic connotations. If you google the word "Tranny", the results will be overwhelming porn sites. The top 10 results are all pornography, bar the wikipedia entry on the word, where it describes tranny as a pejorative towards transgender people (and also slang for transmission). Now if you google "transgender" the results are support sites, news articles and such. There's a clear distinction in the meaning behind the two words. But that's what tranny means, it's an insult and it's a pornographic term.

Do I personally find it offensive? Yes, most absolutely. It's not something I would ever appreciate being called, no matter what the context and no matter what the intentions of the person who says it, even if they don't think it's offensive, and even if they're transgender themselves, I don't ever want to be called that word.

But like I said, I'm not gonna get bent out of shape if it happens either, I'll be understanding if someone doesn't realize it's offensive, explain that I don't like it and politely ask them not to use it.

deirdre_dub

Maguined wrote: »

But that is true of all language, you have to judge what everyone says to you whether it is meant with humour, serious offense, anger, snide, benign etc not specifically to this one word.

Why is it my responsibility to figure out what the other person meant? Why isn't it their responsibility to choose their words with due caution?

I'm not a mind-reader. I can only go by what I hear.

Even the controversial N word is frequently used in america between african americans themselves, it can be used to insult or it can be used in friendly banter, the word itself is not inherently offensive or humorous but it is how it is applied and expressed that determines the meaning communicated.

There is IMO a world of difference between someone within group X using an offensive word against another member of group X, and someone outside group X using that exact same word against someone within group X.

In ther former case, because the person using the word is being self-deprecating (due to using an offensive word to describe a group that they themselves are a member of), the use of the word contains a lot less sting than in the latter case.

Maguined

Links234 wrote: »

Sure there's examples of offensive language being used in certain contexts where it's deemed acceptable, but those are the exceptions, and that doesn't mean the language itself isn't offensive. Like, a bunch of lads in the pub might call each other all kinds of things during the course of a night on the lash, one lad might call another a stupid ****ing cocksucker, and this is acceptable when there's an understanding, but that understanding is the exception. If the same man calls someone else he doesn't know a stupid ****ing cocksucker, there's only going to be one interpretation because the actual meaning of those words are entirely negative.

Words and language carry meanings, that's a large part of how we communicate. If I ask for pistachio ice cream, it doesn't matter how much I intended or meant to ask for rum & raisin, it'll be taken that I wanted pistachio. Just like it'll be taken that if you say something offensive, it'll be taken that way.

So if it comes down to context then surely the word itself is not inherently offensive but the context in which it is used?

I have been called "insulting" words by a total stranger but in the context I viewed it as just banter and humour as that is how it is was intended so took no offense.

Similarly you could take seemingly "positive" words such as "good girl" but if someone says them in a patronizing context it is not the words themselves that are the issue but the fact they were used patronizing tone and emotion.

I would still be of the belief that words themselves are not inherently good/bad but the context of their use and the intentions of the person using them would determine this.

Links234 wrote: »

But lets move onto the word tranny, and why this is offensive. It's almost always used to insult, so the meaning the word has is insulting to begin with. But as well as that, the word also has pornographic connotations. If you google the word "Tranny", the results will be overwhelming porn sites. The top 10 results are all pornography, bar the wikipedia entry on the word, where it describes tranny as a pejorative towards transgender people (and also slang for transmission). Now if you google "transgender" the results are support sites, news articles and such. There's a clear distinction in the meaning behind the two words. But that's what tranny means, it's an insult and it's a pornographic term.

Is that not circular logic though? rather than looking at the context of how the word might be used in individual circumstances you are assuming it is automatically offensive because it can and has been used in offensive context previously.

If you google the word "breasts" on the internet you will also be inundated with pornography yet I would not automatically consider the word to be pornographic because of this, it is all about the context as the same word used on a women's health magazine talking about screening for cancer is completely different than it being in a playboy magazine.

Maguined

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Why is it my responsibility to figure out what the other person meant? Why isn't it their responsibility to choose their words with due caution?

I'm not a mind-reader. I can only go by what I hear.

It is not a question of responsibility and mind reading. When someone says any sentence to you, you have to interpret it as you see fit based upon the words chosen, the body language of the person and the tone of their voice. In a work enviroment someone can say the same thing twice but with different meanings "Is that project done yet?" said in a calm relaxed purely inquiring tone of voice is completely different than "is that project done yet?" said in an angry impatient, rude and aggressive tone of voice despite it being the exact same words.

So I never take offensive at what words are used but by the tone of voice and expression being used to deliver them.

deirdre_dub wrote: »

There is IMO a world of difference between someone within group X using an offensive word against another member of group X, and someone outside group X using that exact same word against someone within group X.

In ther former case, because the person using the word is being self-deprecating (due to using an offensive word to describe a group that they themselves are a member of), the use of the word contains a lot less sting than in the latter case.

So it is not what is said but who says it? would that not be racist/sexist/etc discrimination?

twinQuins

Certain words have negative connotations and while you may not intend it as an insult that is how they are meant to be used and how they will be taken up because they are rarely used outside of that context.

If I call someone a prick they're going to get angry at me, even if I insist it's not meant to offend precisely because the word is primarily used as an insult.
I know what you're saying, Maguined but the fact remains that some words have negative connotations that cannot be seperated from the word and it's up to the person speaking to gauge their audience and know whether, given that, it's likely to be construed as an insult.

Links234

Maguined wrote: »

So if it comes down to context then surely the word itself is not inherently offensive but the context in which it is used?

I have been called "insulting" words by a total stranger but in the context I viewed it as just banter and humour as that is how it is was intended so took no offense.

Similarly you could take seemingly "positive" words such as "good girl" but if someone says them in a patronizing context it is not the words themselves that are the issue but the fact they were used patronizing tone and emotion.

I would still be of the belief that words themselves are not inherently good/bad but the context of their use and the intentions of the person using them would determine this.

Sure, a lot of communication is non-verbal, and as you point out in your other post, tone of voice and body language play a part in the meanings we wish to convey. But that doesn't contravene the fact there are words that carry very serious meanings above and beyond whatever you are trying to say. And just because there are exceptions and acceptable contexts, does not mean for a second that such words are acceptable in general.

For example, I've heard some women (in a joking context) refer to each other as whores. Should we impart from this that the word whore is an acceptable word to use to describe women because it was used in a particular context, where there was an understanding between the women? Or do we understand that this is a word that has a serious meaning, will almost exclusively be used as an insult and have those connotations for those who hear the word, and know that it is generally unacceptable?

Maguined wrote: »

Is that not circular logic though? rather than looking at the context of how the word might be used in individual circumstances you are assuming it is automatically offensive because it can and has been used in offensive context previously.

If you google the word "breasts" on the internet you will also be inundated with pornography yet I would not automatically consider the word to be pornographic because of this, it is all about the context as the same word used on a women's health magazine talking about screening for cancer is completely different than it being in a playboy magazine.

I did google the word breasts, and the results were a mix of health sites and news articles, and I was not inundated with pornography as you suggest, so that is completely incomparable. But on the other hand, search results for the word "tranny" and the results you'll get will be overwhelming pornographic, because that's exactly what the word is and the connotations it has, it's overwhelmingly a pornographic term. But go on, google the two words and compare the top 10 results for each for yourself.

And you are wrong. I am looking at the term in individual circumstances, but you know what? Very, very rarely have I ever seen it being used in circumstances where it's a positive thing, outside of pornography it's almost exclusively used as a term of abuse. And all those individual circumstances add up and impart exactly what is meant in a cultural context by that word, and it is certainly not good. It is a vile, degrading and insulting word. And it's a bit rich for you to tell transgender people (you know, the people this word is aimed at and used to abuse) to look at the context of how the word is used, when we know the context, and we know it a lot more personally than you would.

I'll leave you with this, which touches upon what we're talking about here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p68-k_fiiaQ

diddlybit

Links234 wrote: »

And it's a bit rich for you to tell transgender people (you know, the people this word is aimed at and used to abuse) to look at the context of how the word is used, when we know the context, and we know it a lot more personally than you would.

Bravo.

Azure_sky

Freiheit wrote: »

The Tranny Haven Club and website are run by trans people isn't it? so clearly some are happy to use it. But I myself think it sounds illiterate.

I've never been to Tranny Haven/Gemini club but from what I gather (and I could be totally wrong here) it's primarily catered towards transvestites and chasers, rather than transsexuals and their long term partners. Their website seems to bear testament to this.

One word I absolutely hate is shemale. It's not just that it's associated with porn, it just has a really vile ring to it. It comes off as extremely dehumanising. Ladyboy and Trap I dislike less, though I still don't condone their use.

Links234 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p68-k_fiiaQ

Yes, she's always worth listening to.

bodice ripper

I don't know if I have ever heard "tranny" used out loud other than to discuss porn, and to be fair it wasn't anything other than appreciative of said porn.

It isn't something I would say, its unpleasant. I feel the same way about dyke, fagg0t, queer, fag-hag, and gay as a noun.

deirdre_dub

Maguined wrote: »

So I never take offensive at what words are used but by the tone of voice and expression being used to deliver them.

OK - I think I hear what you are saying.

However, being a human being, when I hear the "T" word, I cannot but be transported back into my mind to some ugly experiences I've had on the street where that word was used in a deliberate attempt to hurt me.

Also, it seems to me that we need a set of words whose purpose is always to express displeasure at someone. My experiences with the "T" word tells me that it serves just that purpose - it seems to me that its purpose is to express gross displeasure at my gender identity, and hence at who I am as a human being.

Let me give what I hope is an appropriate analogy. You say you never get offended at words, but rather at the tone of voice used to deliver them. So if I were to call you a "fscking dipsh1t whore" in a friendly tone of voice, you wouldn't get offended. Fair enough - I understand that. However, would you ever use those exact same words in exactly the same tone of voice against a close female friend? Can you at least accept that because of her gender, and because of your use of the word "whore", the same words used in the same tone of voice will almost certainly always make those words a lot more difficult for her to swallow?

So it is not what is said but who says it? would that not be racist/sexist/etc discrimination?

No - it is context. It is just that context that you are arguing that I should employ when I hear the word.

As I said, when I hear that word, I am transported in my mind back to some quite ugly experiences. The good news, from my point of view, is that if the person who is using the word is also transported back to similar experiences, then their use of word, whereas it still has an expression of displeasure, it also has a tone of camaraderie between us vis-a-vis shared ugly experiences on the street. That camaraderie is absent when the person using the word has never had those ugly experiences, and hence their use of the word has a lot more sting.

deirdre_dub

Maguined wrote: »

So if it comes down to context then surely the word itself is not inherently offensive but the context in which it is used?

Exactly.

The context in which the "T" word is used is one which is degrading to trans people. There are very very very few exceptions. Almost all of those exceptions are where the "T" word is used by trans people, in which case its impact is lessened by the shared experience camaraderie that I mentioned in my previous post.

When you use a word, you also need to be aware of its contextual meaning to the other person.

It goes back to my previous question - why is the context of the word my responsibility? Why isn't the context of the word the responsibility of the person using the word? Why is it that I am required to go "this word is almost always used to hurt me - it is almost always used to de-humanise me - is this one of those very very very rare exceptions"? Surely there is responsibility on you to realise that the word is, indeed, almost always used to hurt and de-humanise me? Yes, it would be better if such words didn't exist, but they do. And they exist, and will continue to exist, for as long as transphobia exists, because transphobic asshats need such words.

Granted I realise that many people aren't (initially) aware of that context. However, now that you are aware of that context, can I respectfully suggest that you never use that word?!

deirdre_dub

This might also be worth a read -

A day in the life of an angry transsexual

I don't think it's fair to say that people who are ridiculed for being who and what they are don't have the right to say "you may not use such-and-such a word to describe me, because that word is used and needed by the people who ridicule me, and hence it hurts".

I'm not going to make an exception for you because you are a nice person. If you are, indeed, a nice person, can you not make an exception for me and just not use that word when there are so many others you could use? Again - why is it that I am the one who needs to make an exception around a word with you, and not you who should make an exception around a word with me?

Louisevb

Let's put the word Trannie or Tranny in context.
Eight years ago trannie and it's connotations were acceptable, that was why I used it to set up the http://www.tranniehaven.com/Tranniehavenmainpage.html website following on from the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishtrannie/join

Latterly some people mostly in the States decided that "trannie" was offensive or not politically correct and a few people here decided for whatever reason to agree, I suspect without thinking too much about it. I find this a bit silly to be honest. If it's used in a derogatory manner preceded by an expletive, then maybe but to use the word on it's own is quite acceptable. If someone started using f""king transgender would that make it any less acceptable? By allowing people to bully society into changing terms in my view is ridiculous. People should chill more and forget about terminology.

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

If it's used in a derogatory manner preceded by an expletive, then maybe but to use the word on it's own is quite acceptable. If someone started using f""king transgender would that make it any less acceptable?

The point is that no-one uses the phrase "fscking transgender". The only word I've ever heard on the street used to attack me is the word in question.

Latterly some people mostly in the States decided that "trannie" was offensive or not politically correct and a few people here decided for whatever reason to agree, I suspect without thinking too much about it.

It only takes a fraction of a second of thought to conclude that when a word is consistently used to try and offend you, then that word is meant to be offensive. As for whether the transphobes imported that word from the States as an offensive word is something I cannot comment on.

By allowing people to bully society into changing terms in my view is ridiculous.

I think, Louise, you will find that it is I who is being bullied. I am being bullied into allowing so-called polite society address me in the same way as transphobes do.

People should chill more and forget about terminology.

People should chill about what exactly - bullying? As for terminology - terminology can be used to oppress (take the "D" in "GID" as an example).

Louisevb

deirdre_dub wrote: »

The point is that no-one uses the phrase "fscking transgender". The only word I've ever heard on the street used to attack me is the word in question.
It only takes a fraction of a second of thought to conclude that when a word is consistently used to try and offend you, then that word is meant to be offensive. As for whether the transphobes imported that word from the States as an offensive word is something I cannot comment on.
I think, Louise, you will find that it is I who is being bullied. I am being bullied into allowing so-called polite society address me in the same way as transphobes do.
People should chill about what exactly - bullying? As for terminology - terminology can be used to oppress (take the "D" in "GID" as an example).

My point here is why was this word not seen as offensive some years ago but is seen as offensive now? This is society that has decided to make the word trannie "offensive". Society also decided that the word "******" is now offensive to black people.. with respect to those who are coloured here. The English language is a living language and if we take offense at certain words which were at one time perfectly acceptable for no good reason, at the whim of people who use language as a means of abuse then this will go on ad infinitum. It's up to people who are trans to educate the wider population on their preferred terms, but not to take a once perfectly acceptable term and for no reason demonise it. By doing that you allow the bullies to win. Being sensitive about the use of language is fine but sometimes we can be too sensitive

Endymion

Links234 wrote: »

yeah, it's always offensive, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it either.

There's no such thing as a term which is always offensive.

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

My point here is why was this word not seen as offensive some years ago but is seen as offensive now?

I've never known a period of time that that word wasn't offensive. Even before I identified as trans myself, I kinda knew that that word wasn't really a good one to use.

Society also decided that the word "******" is now offensive to black people.

Incorrect. That word isn't now offensive to coloured people - it always was. What has changed is that the rest of society is now aware of that offense. What has also changed is that most of society now believes that coloured people are worthy of respect, including the respect of not having offensive words used against them.

Being sensitive about the use of language is fine but sometimes we can be too sensitive

... and sometimes society can be not sensitive enough. :rolleyes:

Links234

Louisevb wrote: »

Latterly some people mostly in the States decided that "trannie" was offensive or not politically correct and a few people here decided for whatever reason to agree, I suspect without thinking too much about it.

yeah, I guess I never really thought about it at all



Tranny, shemale, ladyboy, trap, he-she, they're all very disgusting words and I think I have very good reason to find them offensive.

deirdre_dub

Endymion wrote: »

There's no such thing as a term which is always offensive.

So there is no word someone could use to convey displeasure at you?

SugarHigh

deirdre_dub wrote: »

So there is no word someone could use to convey displeasure at you?

That's not what you quoted.

Even cúnt can be used in a non-offensive way so I'd have to agree with endymon.

SugarHigh

Links234 wrote: »

yeah, I guess I never really thought about it at all

http://i.imgur.com/MXMvR.jpg

Tranny, shemale, ladyboy, trap, he-she, they're all very disgusting words and I think I have very good reason to find them offensive.

So if porn sites started using the term trans-gendered would that then become offensive?

I think you have to look at the sentiment of how it is used.

I don't see why Tranny is offensive just because how it is commonly used. Saying "You Tranny bitch" is obviously offensive but switching it to "You trans-gendered bitch" doesn't make it any less offensive.

So I don't see why " X person is a tranny" should be more offensive than "X person is trans-gendered".

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

Even cúnt can be used in a non-offensive way

I'm struggling to think of a way in which that word could be used such that it leaves the recipient feeling better, or even the same.

So if porn sites started using the term trans-gendered would that then become offensive?

If porn sites used the term transgendered to refer to people like me reduced to sexual objects, then yes.

I think you have to look at the sentiment of how it is used.

SO DO YOU!!!

I think Links had made it abundantly clear the sentiment that most often surrounds the use of the T-word.

I don't see why Tranny is offensive just because how it is commonly used. Saying "You Tranny bitch" is obviously offensive but switching it to "You trans-gendered bitch" doesn't make it any less offensive.

Saying "you transgendered-slut bitch" is more offensive than saying "you transgendered bitch".

So I don't see why " X person is a tranny" should be more offensive than "X person is trans-gendered".

You don't see how it is more offensive to call someone a prostitute?!

Louisevb

Links,
Because a word is used in terms of porn or the word escort is used, does it make it more difficult for natal women not to be seen as sex objects, or to offend them, any more than those who are transgendered? Natal women pose for page 3, do porn movies, strip off in mainstream movies, go to Templebar half naked on a Saturday night...Transgendered women of my acquaintance do exactly the same, get chatted up, get drunk , have a good time..I see no issue here apart from over sensitivity, trying to be pc, and following the herd, with respect.

Take the word Ladyboy. There are countries in the far east where Ladyboy is not seen as offensive at all. I was in town a few weeks ago and the singer included the word in a song because my Filipino friend and I were introduced to the guy earlier that evening. We weren't offended.. That is just one example.

Unfortunately, and I don't like saying this, and I have no wish to offend people, there are people who are transgendered who go out of their way to attract attention, in their dress, behaviour, etc.There are also those who make no effort to dress for the time of day or the establishment that they are in. For some it's a question of needing some help with makeup, (or no makeup as the case maybe.) of improving body language etc. and there may be no one available to advise, I understand that.

What I am saying is that TENI or someone else should be advising transgendered people especially in the early stages, then maybe people wouldn't get any verbal abuse and being called a Tranny wouldn't necessarily be an issue? I don't want to fit people into stereotypes and I'm trying to pick my words carefully as there are those who wish to be viewed as gender neutral as well

Links234

SugarHigh wrote: »

So if porn sites started using the term trans-gendered would that then become offensive?

I think you have to look at the sentiment of how it is used.

I don't see why Tranny is offensive just because how it is commonly used. Saying "You Tranny bitch" is obviously offensive but switching it to "You trans-gendered bitch" doesn't make it any less offensive.

So I don't see why " X person is a tranny" should be more offensive than "X person is trans-gendered".

Yes, if the word transgender took on as many negative connotations as tranny and stopped being used as it is today, it would become offensive. That's kinda how language works, meanings can change over time, and take on offensive connotations. The word spastic is offensive today, the spastic society changed it's name to scope, but it wasn't always offensive it was a medical term that through usage became of a term of abuse. How about you go right ahead and call people with cerebral palsy spastics and tell them it's not offensive?

F*ggot wasn't always a term of abuse either.



And yes, I am looking at the sentiment of how it is used. You, apparently, are not.

Louisevb wrote: »

Links,
Because a word is used in terms of porn or the word escort is used, does it make it more difficult for natal women not to be seen as sex objects, or to offend them, any more than those who are transgendered? Natal women pose for page 3, do porn movies, strip off in mainstream movies, go to Templebar half naked on a Saturday night...Transgendered women of my acquaintance do exactly the same, get chatted up, get drunk , have a good time..I see no issue here apart from over sensitivity, trying to be pc, and following the herd, with respect.

Take the word Ladyboy. There are countries in the far east where Ladyboy is not seen as offensive at all. I was in town a few weeks ago and the singer included the word in a song because my Filipino friend and I were introduced to the guy earlier that evening. We weren't offended.. That is just one example.

Unfortunately, and I don't like saying this, and I have no wish to offend people, there are people who are transgendered who go out of their way to attract attention, in their dress, behaviour, etc.There are also those who make no effort to dress for the time of day or the establishment that they are in. For some it's a question of needing some help with makeup, (or no makeup as the case maybe.) of improving body language etc. and there may be no one available to advise, I understand that.

What I am saying is that TENI or someone else should be advising transgendered people especially in the early stages, then maybe people wouldn't get any verbal abuse and being called a Tranny wouldn't necessarily be an issue? I don't want to fit people into stereotypes and I'm trying to pick my words carefully as there are those who wish to be viewed as gender neutral as well

So people who are abused in public and called tranny are bringing it on themselves? Wow.

Victim blaming is one of the most repugnant attitudes that exists in the world today, and it infuriates me. It's the kind of thinking that says that the bullying a kid might receive is their own fault, and excuses the bully of wrong doing. Or when someone says a rape victim brought it on because of how she was dressed. And the amount of hatred against transgender people that gets excused with this line of thinking, that the person who just got beaten because they're transgender should've expected it because of their "lifestyle"...

But go on, tell me I'm just being oversensitive again, how I'm just following "the herd" and trying to be PC. :rolleyes: or just don't bother.

I have nothing else to say to you.

Louisevb

Links
With the greatest of respect, I do not wish to upset you. I've been involved in the social and support side of the transgendered community for a number of years. I'm stating what I've seen happening within the wider transgendered community in that time, and offering some ideas on how to counteract that.
Your comparison with a rape victim, bullying kids etc. are totally different matters. I'm not saying I condone people being abused, because of their mode of dress. I'm trying to be constructive. The reality is that any group that dresses outside society "norms" no matter who they are do draw attention to themselves. I'm not into "blaming the victims" as you say,or anyone else. I'm calling it as I see it. That is why I suggested that TENI or some other setup could with good effect perhaps initiate some help in style/colour/deportment advice. At the moment all the advice is directed towards those who have pretty much decided who and where they are...those who are starting out to experiment with clothes and their gender look etc. do need some help.

The more "normality" we can bring to being transgendered in whatever form, the more the public will accept those they see and the word "trannie" as being seen as abusive, will become irrelevant. Idealistic perhaps, but there are wider issues. If you have any idea of my back ground you will realise that I'm trying to challenge and be constructive.

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

Links,
Because a word is used in terms of porn or the word escort is used, does it make it more difficult for natal women not to be seen as sex objects, or to offend them, any more than those who are transgendered? Natal women pose for page 3, do porn movies, strip off in mainstream movies, go to Templebar half naked on a Saturday night...Transgendered women of my acquaintance do exactly the same, get chatted up, get drunk , have a good time..I see no issue here apart from over sensitivity, trying to be pc, and following the herd, with respect.

I do not believe the discussion is about how people choose to live their lives, and I do not believe it is about the morality or merits or otherwise of certain lifestyles - I believe the discussion is about words used to describe a whole swath of the population, some of whom engage in the behaviours you mention above, but most of whom do not.

Take the word Ladyboy. There are countries in the far east where Ladyboy is not seen as offensive at all. I was in town a few weeks ago and the singer included the word in a song because my Filipino friend and I were introduced to the guy earlier that evening. We weren't offended.. That is just one example.

Again, I do not believe that the discussion is about the use of words in the far east, or the use of those words to describe people from the far east, but rather the use of words to describe people at home.

Unfortunately, and I don't like saying this, and I have no wish to offend people, there are people who are transgendered who go out of their way to attract attention, in their dress, behaviour, etc.There are also those who make no effort to dress for the time of day or the establishment that they are in. For some it's a question of needing some help with makeup, (or no makeup as the case maybe.) of improving body language etc. and there may be no one available to advise, I understand that.

I don't know what relevance this has to the discussion.

What I am saying is that TENI or someone else should be advising transgendered people especially in the early stages, then maybe people wouldn't get any verbal abuse and being called a Tranny wouldn't necessarily be an issue? I don't want to fit people into stereotypes and I'm trying to pick my words carefully as there are those who wish to be viewed as gender neutral as well

People do not get verbal abuse because of how they present. They get verbal abuse because they transgress gender boundaries, regardless of how well or otherwise they present. I've had people who have never seen me verbally abuse me.

Louise, I respect your right to not get offended when someone calls you a tranny. Can you respect my right to see that word as Google sees it - a term used to describe a specific subset of transgendered people - a subset that I am not a part of - and a subset which can be used to denigrate me because of other associations with that subset? Or are you telling me that your way of seeing that word is the only way that anyone may ever see that word?!

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

The reality is that any group that dresses outside society "norms" no matter who they are do draw attention to themselves. I'm not into "blaming the victims"

So what you are saying is that people who dress outside of society's norms draw attention to themselves, thereby get called names, thereby becoming victims, and it is not their fault.

I agree completely. When someone gets called a name for any behaviour that doesn't reduce the quality of life of another, it is never their fault - it is always the fault of the person who did the name-calling.

That is why I suggested that TENI or some other setup could with good effect perhaps initiate some help in style/colour/deportment advice.

Why? The problem doesn't lie with the person who doesn't have the particular style/colour/deportment that you would like them to have - it lies with the person who did the name-calling. No - TENI (or some such organisation) needs to address the name-callers.

Granted there are people who want style/colour/deportment advice. But those that don't shouldn't have it forced on them!

Louisevb

deirdre_dub wrote: »

So what you are saying is that people who dress outside of society's norms draw attention to themselves, thereby get called names, thereby becoming victims, and it is not their fault.

I agree completely. When someone gets called a name for any behaviour that doesn't reduce the quality of life of another, it is never their fault - it is always the fault of the person who did the name-calling.
Why? The problem doesn't lie with the person who doesn't have the particular style/colour/deportment that you would like them to have - it lies with the person who did the name-calling. No - TENI (or some such organisation) needs to address the name-callers.

Granted there are people who want style/colour/deportment advice. But those that don't shouldn't have it forced on them!

Deirdre
This is going around in circles. What I'm trying to show is that there are other groups in society who get attention as well as those who are transgendered...Some transgendered people go out of their way to get attention from random strangers on the street or anywhere else. Others get attention because of their way of dressing however unintentional. I am also not condoning abuse of transgendered people because of how they dress. I'm stating what I've seen for the past 12 years, as facts only.

If you are trying to change how society uses the word "trannie" then both the profile of transgendered people needs to be raised to a massively high level compared to the present day. Language is a constantly evolving method of communication and it will take years to get people to see that you feel "trannie" to be offensive. You could start in Dublin right now by asking Panti to stop using the word trannie to describe her drag show performers There are also a lot worse words in my view that could be used, because the word doesn't particularly bother me. I'm coming from a certain angle. BTW trannie or the plural is the most searched term on Google for people looking for information etc. on transgendered people.

The sad fact is also that many transgendered people have to turn to the porn industry or to escorting to fund their transition as most states only see hormones and SRS as their obligation, yet we all know there is a lot more than that to transitioning. There are also those who have to do this work to earn a living because of societies attitudes.

Endymion

deirdre_dub wrote: »

So there is no word someone could use to convey displeasure at you?

No always does not equate to never. I think you're being a little bit conceited in your response to this. It's patently obvious and "offence" is subjected and what one person takes offence to another may not. You've also almost certainly encountered transsexuals who refer to themselves and others a tranny.

deirdre_dub

Endymion wrote: »

No always does not equate to never.

I'm still struggling to think of a word which is usually used to offend, but which is sometimes used to compliment.

It's patently obvious and "offence" is subjected and what one person takes offence to another may not. You've also almost certainly encountered transsexuals who refer to themselves and others a tranny.

But the post wasn't about their opinion of the word - it was about my opinion. Are you saying that because there are some trans people who don't take offense to the word that that means I have no right to always find it offensive?

Endymion

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I'm still struggling to think of a word which is usually used to offend, but which is sometimes used to compliment.
But the post wasn't about their opinion of the word - it was about my opinion.

A term may neither offend nor complement. Tranny would be an example of a word which some transgendered people feel indifferent towards.

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Are you saying that because there are some trans people who don't take offense to the word that that means I have no right to always find it offensive?

I think you know full well that's not what I'm saying, and I question to need to draw these ridiculous conclusions. The comment was that Tranny is always offensive. I find the term Fag always offensive, however, it is no a term which is always offensive to others, nor is it a term which is always used to cause offence. You've clearly recognised that just because others are ok with a term, you shouldn't have to be. It's the same in reverse.

deirdre_dub

Endymion wrote: »

A term may neither offend nor complement. Tranny would be an example of a word which some transgendered people feel indifferent towards.

Again, it isn't about some transgendered people - it's about the individual people here who are answering my question on their own behalf.

I find the term Fag always offensive, however, it is no a term which is always offensive to others, nor is it a term which is always used to cause offence.

By the sounds of it, it is always causes offence to you.

So, others don't find it offensive. Does that make it acceptable to use the word with you?

You've clearly recognised that just because others are ok with a term, you shouldn't have to be.

And how do you feel about the fact that you "shouldn't have to be" offended at "fag"? Does it make that word easier for you to hear?

It's the same in reverse.

And, as it is with "fag", so it is with the T-word.

deirdre_dub

So, 34 people have answered my poll, and half say that it is "rarely or never offensive".

I'm not sure that there are 34 trans people on this forum. Which leads me to wonder how many cis people have answered my question. Which also leads me to wonder how many cis people have said that they would "rarely or never" find it offensive if someone called them a "tranny".

Any cis people want to comment on that one? Especially if you are a cis person who doesn't find it offensive if someone calls you a "tranny"?

bodice ripper

deirdre_dub wrote: »

So, 34 people have answered my poll, and half say that it is "rarely or never offensive".

I'm not sure that there are 34 trans people on this forum. Which leads me to wonder how many cis people have answered my question. Which also leads me to wonder how many cis people have said that they would "rarely or never" find it offensive if someone called them a "tranny".

Any cis people want to comment on that one? Especially if you are a cis person who doesn't find it offensive if someone calls you a "tranny"?

sure, I'll bite, why not?

I wouldn't want to be called a tranny. I don't like to be called a dyke, a lesbian, fat, a yank, a slapper, an art-fag, greedy, a toff, a thug. But all those terms have been used by people close to me to describe me on countless occasions. And I love these people and they love me.

I am happy to be refered to as a deviant, a bad influnce, low class, a freak, bitter, angry, calculating, and a bitch by the people who hate me.

SugarHigh

Links234 wrote: »

Yes, if the word transgender took on as many negative connotations as tranny and stopped being used as it is today, it would become offensive. That's kinda how language works, meanings can change over time, and take on offensive connotations. The word spastic is offensive today, the spastic society changed it's name to scope, but it wasn't always offensive it was a medical term that through usage became of a term of abuse. How about you go right ahead and call people with cerebral palsy spastics and tell them it's not offensive?

I don't beleive Tranny has the negative connotations you claim. Using tranny to describe a trans-gendered person in porn isn't offensive. There are Trans-gendered people in porn and some people like that so they have to call them something. According to you whatever they call them will be offensive. Is it offensive to gay people to call gay porn gay? What about lesbian porn is that offensive to lesbians? Is Asian offensive to Asians?

F*ggot wasn't always a term of abuse either.

I don't find F*ggot offensive unless it's used as an insult. If a friend said "Hey fag" I wouldn't give two sh1ts.

And yes, I am looking at the sentiment of how it is used. You, apparently, are not.

You are looking at the sentiment in how it is occasionally used and then applying that to all possible usage. Someone who is trying to have a genuine discussion about trans people but might not be familiar with the minefield that is the language associated with that topic is not being offensive if they call trans-gendered people tranny's.

SugarHigh

deirdre_dub wrote: »

So, 34 people have answered my poll, and half say that it is "rarely or never offensive".

I'm not sure that there are 34 trans people on this forum. Which leads me to wonder how many cis people have answered my question. Which also leads me to wonder how many cis people have said that they would "rarely or never" find it offensive if someone called them a "tranny".

Any cis people want to comment on that one? Especially if you are a cis person who doesn't find it offensive if someone calls you a "tranny"?

I'm a cis-person and I voted never or rarely offensive because I don't believe the word can be offensive on it's own. It's completely dependent on usage.