If Pope Benedict was to visit Ireland next year

branie

Would Knock be on the agenda?

Donatello

Dublin and Armagh definitely. The Pope might well go to Knock. It is a Eucharistic apparition after all and the venue can host large crowds, so why not?

alex73

Hot off the press. I believe vatican will issue statement in coming days that the pope will be Here for the Eucharistic congress next year. What this space.

Onesimus

Knock would be on the agenda but I'm confident that when his holiness gets there and see that they put Our Lord's tabernacle to the side ( when he should be the center of the Church behind the alter ) there will be questions asked. I do believe a huge clean out of bad theologians and the whole of Ireland itself is on the agenda at the moment and this visit will aid it and speed it up.

Onesimus

gigino

Onesimus wrote: »

Knock would be on the agenda but I'm confident that when his holiness gets there ....

Lets hope the Irish Catholic church can find someone to stand beside him who is scandal free ....the last time a Pope was in the west of Ireland ( 1979 ) the two main Catholic Clergy beside him at the alter were later found to have fathered secret children. I suppose that was the least of the scandals / cover-ups which were exposed in the meantime. As a catholic I do not mind if he comes or not but I would say there would be a certain amount of opposition to him coming.

Onesimus

gigino wrote: »

Lets hope the Irish Catholic church can find someone to stand beside him who is scandal free ....the last time the Pope was in the west of Ireland the two main Catholic Clergy beside him at the alter were later found to have fathered secret children. I suppose that was the least of the scandals / cover-ups which were exposed in the meantime.

Thanks for your post gigino. Could you perhaps post links to proof of what you say? Fathered in secret? you mean they had sexual relations with a woman whilst ordained or before they entered the priesthood?

I never knew that. Strange stuff. Yeah I'm with you there but scandals and betrayal of those who share Christ's table we will always have right up until the end. The kiss of Judas it seems is one that has lasted for many centuries and the spirit of Judas is one ever present in the Church.

Onesimus

gigino wrote: »

Lets hope the Irish Catholic church can find someone to stand beside him who is scandal free ....the last time a Pope was in the west of Ireland ( 1979 ) the two main Catholic Clergy beside him at the alter were later found to have fathered secret children. I suppose that was the least of the scandals / cover-ups which were exposed in the meantime. As a catholic I do not mind if he comes or not but I would say there would be a certain amount of opposition to him coming.

''If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.'' ( John:15:18 )

and of course Christ tells us that: ''If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you:'' ( John:15:20 )

Opposition in every country His Holiness visits will always show opposition. From St.Peter the first Bishop/Pope of Rome who was martyred right to the present day the Pope is always shown opposition of some sort.

Asry

The Pope?! During the Eucharistic Congress? But I've just registered to volunteer for that!! Oh my God!!

gigino

Onesimus wrote: »

Thanks for your post gigino. Could you perhaps post links to proof of what you say? Fathered in secret? you mean they had sexual relations with a woman whilst ordained or before they entered the priesthood?

Yes, the 2 main men were.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/scannal/Casey.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-secret-life-of-michael-cleary-entertainer-radio-show-host-father-of-two-and-priest-401971.html

Festus

Perhaps it could be viewed as a reminder of how Christ died with a sinner either side of Him.

keano_afc

Festus wrote: »

Perhaps it could be viewed as a reminder of how Christ died with a sinner either side of Him.

I really, really hope you're not comparing Ratzinger to Christ. :mad:

Festus

keano_afc wrote: »

I really, really hope you're not comparing Ratzinger to Christ. :mad:

I really really hope you are not that ignorant and have merely made a mistake in your understanding of the timeline.

If I recall correctly Ratzinger was not there.

keano_afc

Festus wrote: »

I really really hope you are not that ignorant and have merely made a mistake in your understanding of the timeline.

If I recall correctly Ratzinger was not there.

My mistake, must have been Wojtyla who he was referring to. Still dont like your comparision though.

Asry

I'm not sure about Blessed Pope John Paul II. He did a great many beautiful and good things. But I always hear whispers that he did bad things too, or his stance on certain issues was too extreme or something.

I'm trying to remember the small rumours I heard, but I can't I just have a general 'wrong' feeling about him.

ANYWAY. Do you think Benedict XVI would come to my house? ....Definitely not. Imagine that though.

Also I want to add in this post that this whole 'Catholic forum' and 'Catholic mod' thing is ridiculous. Why want one? Why need a Catholic mod? Our mods are great. The forum is working fine - I mean, there's no persecution, so what the hell is the problem? Also though if this is to continue, I hereby nominate myself as the Catholic mod. That would be *hilariously awesome*. Mostly hilarious. Until I renounce my inclusion in the Church and get the hell out of that party. The end.

Festus

keano_afc wrote: »

My mistake, must have been Wojtyla who he was referring to. Still dont like your comparision though.

Well, I don't care much for your tone. Or your prejudice.

I made an observation. If the Pope had died there and then it might be called a comparison. He didn't so it's not. Not the way I see it anyway.

That he had sinners by his side is nothing more than par for all called to the priesthood. In case you have forgotten, we are all sinners in one way or another, Popes, Bishops and priests included.

Lady Chuckles

Could the Pope be coming to Ireland?? When?

keano_afc

Festus wrote: »

Well, I don't care much for your tone. Or your prejudice.

I made an observation. If the Pope had died there and then it might be called a comparison. He didn't so it's not. Not the way I see it anyway.

That he had sinners by his side is nothing more than par for all called to the priesthood. In case you have forgotten, we are all sinners in one way or another, Popes, Bishops and priests included.

Good to hear this from a Catholic. My experience giving the gospel to RC's would usually involve a conversation about the status of the pope. Not all would agree with you.

JimiTime

Onesimus wrote: »

''If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.'' ( John:15:18 )

and of course Christ tells us that: ''If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you:'' ( John:15:20 )

Opposition in every country His Holiness visits will always show opposition. From St.Peter the first Bishop/Pope of Rome who was martyred right to the present day the Pope is always shown opposition of some sort.

I really hope you consider this, but when you use the scriptures you did in relation to protests of a papal visits, please be mindful. Christ told us these things in relation to being hated on account of him etc. Protests to a Papal visit here would be on account of the perpetration and alleged cover up of a most disgusting crime on many children by RC hierarchy. So rather than it being on account of Christ that such protests will occur, it is on account of its own goings on.

Bastardisations of such scripture could also be used by the Phelps clan. 'People hate us, but look what Jesus says about it in John 15'. The stand out issue with people hating Christ and putting him to death, is that Christ is blameless, righteous and upright. THAT is the context. If you are associated with molesting children, then it is on THAT account that people will hate you, not on account of Christ. Just like Phelps is loathed due to him being hateful, nothing to do with professing Christianity.

Festus

keano_afc wrote: »

Good to hear this from a Catholic. My experience giving the gospel to RC's would usually involve a conversation about the status of the pope. Not all would agree with you.

Giving the gospel to RC's. Interesting concept that. Perhaps worthy of a thread of its own. Giving the gospel to those without whom you would have no source Bible to plagiarise. Who'd have thought

I already have the gospel but allow me to give you something.

smokingman

I wonder if a visit to Foynes will be on his agenda....or several other places for that matter.

Festus

smokingman wrote: »

I wonder if a visit to Foynes will be on his agenda....or several other places for that matter.

Probably. I heard he loves flying boats.

gigino

Festus wrote: »

That he had sinners by his side is nothing more than par for all called to the priesthood. In case you have forgotten, we are all sinners in one way or another, Popes, Bishops and priests included.

I thought the Pope was infallibe ? If 32 years ago someone had said the people on each side of the Pope in Galway were sexual sinners, as later exposed / proven, would you have agreed then ?

Festus wrote: »

Probably. I heard he loves flying boats.

Talking about flying, better keep that to a minimum ; last time the Pope was here, in '79, 3 or 4 people were killed in a small plane who were going specifically to see him. I know people are always killed everywehere the Pope goes, but better to try to keep the numbers down.

lmaopml

branie wrote: »

Would Knock be on the agenda?

It's a possibility I guess...

Manach

OT: but re:flying, from a book on Risk and statistical analysis, it seems that post 9/11 there was a major spike on RTAs due to fears over flying - even though flying on average safer than the roads.

This is interesting about the Pope's visit, wondering if he would also do a book-signing tour given he has so many currently published .

gigino

Manach wrote: »

This is interesting about the Pope's visit, wondering if he would also do a book-signing tour given he has so many currently published

Maybe he could do a few book signings at selected schools, magdalene laundries, industrial school, orphanages etc where abuses too place ? And bring some of the 90 billion fortune of the Vatican as compensation ?

Festus

gigino wrote: »

I thought the Pope was infallibe ? If 32 years ago someone had said the people on each side of the Pope in Galway were sexual sinners, as later exposed / proven, would you have agreed then ?

Rather than think perhaps you should look up papal infallibility and see what it means. It's been discussed here many times.

gigino wrote: »

Talking about flying, better keep that to a minimum ; last time the Pope was here, in '79, 3 or 4 people were killed in a small plane who were going specifically to see him. I know people are always killed everywehere the Pope goes, but better to try to keep the numbers down.

Four. The Pilot, two of his children and his sister-in-law.
People are killed everywhere all the time - not the Popes fault.

lmaopml

branie wrote: »

Would Knock be on the agenda?

Then again, who knows..

Tough one to call really.

Asry

gigino wrote: »

I thought the Pope was infallibe ? If 32 years ago someone had said the people on each side of the Pope in Galway were sexual sinners, as later exposed / proven, would you have agreed then ?


Talking about flying, better keep that to a minimum ; last time the Pope was here, in '79, 3 or 4 people were killed in a small plane who were going specifically to see him. I know people are always killed everywehere the Pope goes, but better to try to keep the numbers down.

Aw man, this level of hilarious inanity is good for my morning morale

gigino

Asry wrote: »

Aw man, this level of hilarious inanity is good for my morning morale

I am glad something keeps you happy, but personally I find it sad when I hear or think of anyone / a family of 4 killed in an accident, especially on the way to a religous service.

charlemont

gigino wrote: »

Maybe he could do a few book signings at selected schools, magdalene laundries, industrial school, orphanages etc where abuses too place ? And bring some of the 90 billion fortune of the Vatican as compensation ?

Exactly, If he doesn't address these issues than his visit is pointless..

lmaopml

branie wrote: »

Would Knock be on the agenda?

Will you be going to see him branie? I'm looking forward to the visit myself - hoping that I'll get a decent seat , and looking forward to hearing him say mass and speak to us. I was in Rome just before JPII passed away, literally a couple of weeks, at the time we didn't take the opportunity to hear mass, we had other business that day - I was always sorry

noel farrell

where ever he visits i for one wont be there . i have a very bad memory of the last pope to visit knock. i am christian nd my wife is rc we had sick child at the time my wife wanted to bring her to be blessed . it was a very wet day most of us camped all night and were soaking . pope came very late flew through his at best a ritual . after a short time he was in the air something about helicopter and fog coming in . no pope drive round as we could not get into church there was only over all blessing. next day it came out big farce bishop casey had kept him late in galway i know i should forgive . but i was over the moon when he was caught out for what he was . my wife has never been to rc church since only for family events . how ever it has not effected my faith i attend church every week and any meeting i can make . my daughter had an operation it went very well thanks to a great surgeon mr white dublin he has gone to his reward now rip. she now has children of her own .god bless rant over

Asry

gigino wrote: »

I know people are always killed everywehere the Pope goes, but better to try to keep the numbers down.

I was referring to this, you jackass :rolleyes:

branie

lmaopml wrote: »

Will you be going to see him branie? I'm looking forward to the visit myself - hoping that I'll get a decent seat , and looking forward to hearing him say mass and speak to us. I was in Rome just before JPII passed away, literally a couple of weeks, at the time we didn't take the opportunity to hear mass, we had other business that day - I was always sorry

Hopefully I will

gigino

Asry wrote: »

I was referring to this, you jackass :rolleyes:

First, it is not polite to call anyone a jackass.
Second, I was referring to the fact that in every country Pope John Paul visited, people were killed going to see him. In Ireland 4 people died doing just that. You wrote "Aw man, this level of hilarious inanity is good for my morning morale". Personally, I think the death of anyone is sad, especially anyone travelling to a religous occassion. Most people who travelled / travel to see the Pope are good people - maybe a bit misguided, but good people. Not jackasses either.

If the Pope visits here, no doubt more people will be travelling to heckle him and object to his leadership of the RC church which has covered up so much abuse in Ireland, than to visit him as spiritual leader. Anyway, how could anyone take moral leadership from someone who wore the swastika when millions were being herded in to gas chambers by his fellow countrymen ? I would rather take moral direction from the 2 people on each side of the previous Pope during his visit to the west....Fr. Cleary + Bishop Casey. They were the 2 main men with the pope there. Each it was revealed later had fathered children. At least they had not worn the Swastika, one point in their favour.

Asry

Oh, I know it wasn't very polite. That was my intention.

Second, you're making it sound like the Pope is something from a horror movie, radiating an evil so absolute that people die when trying to travel to see him! Dun dun dun. You might as well throw in a mysterious dead-of-night phonecall there to add to the atmosphere, and cut the lights. It reads like something from Father Ted. Don't tell me that's your actual, logical, light-of-day opinion?

Thirdly, if you know Ireland, people won't bother to go and heckle. They just won't bother to go see him. So I do believe that the people who turn up will be the faithful, with a small minority of dissenters.

Although, throwing the abuse victims into the mix could make it interesting.

And finally, the Pope is Hitler? Confused. They are two different people, you know. I know they're from nearby countries and all but still.

georgieporgy

noel farrell wrote: »

where ever he visits i for one wont be there . i have a very bad memory of the last pope to visit knock. i am christian nd my wife is rc we had sick child at the time my wife wanted to bring her to be blessed . it was a very wet day most of us camped all night and were soaking . pope came very late flew through his at best a ritual . after a short time he was in the air something about helicopter and fog coming in . no pope drive round as we could not get into church there was only over all blessing. next day it came out big farce bishop casey had kept him late in galway i know i should forgive . but i was over the moon when he was caught out for what he was . my wife has never been to rc church since only for family events . how ever it has not effected my faith i attend church every week and any meeting i can make . my daughter had an operation it went very well thanks to a great surgeon mr white dublin he has gone to his reward now rip. she now has children of her own .god bless rant over

Looks like God was pleased with the sacrifice your family made in braving the elements to have your sick daughter blessed by the pope. A blessing from a distance is just as good as a blessing up close, though without the emotional satisfaction of a closer more personal encounter. I'm glad it all worked out well for your daughter.

gigino

Asry wrote: »

And finally, the Pope is Hitler? Confused.

Nobody ever suggested he was. You really are confused. Being a member of the Nazi Youth and wearing the swastika does not make anyone Hitler. Merely a follower of Hitler, as the Pope was. . Hope that explains it to you.

Asry

gigino wrote: »

Nobody ever suggested he was. You really are confused. Being a member of the Nazi Youth and wearing the swastika does not make anyone Hitler. Merely a follower of Hitler, as the Pope was. . Hope that explains it to you.

Your writing skills seem to be very garbled and an obstacle to understanding.

Seeing as you're going to do the whole 'zomg the Pope is a Nazi' rubbish, let me just point you to

a) the fact that membership of the Nazi Youth was a legal requirement of boys of his age in Germany at that time (The Third Reich in Power, Richard J Evans, 2005)

and

b) the following excerpt from an article in USA Today. It cites 2 sources. the first is the memoirs of Benedict XVI himself, and the second is the view of Johannes Tuchel, director of the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin:

He said he tried to avoid Hitler Youth meetings, creating a dilemma. He needed proof of attendance to get a tuition discount, which his father — a retired policeman — badly needed. So he finessed it, according to his book.

"Thank God, there was a math teacher who understood. He was himself a Nazi party member, but an honest man who told me, 'Just go so we have it,'" he recalled. "But when he saw that I simply didn't want to, he said: 'I understand, I'll take care of it.' And so I was free of it."

With so little active resistance to the Nazis, small gestures of defiance were telling, said Johannes Tuchel, director of the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin.

"The color of resistance is not black and white, it's a scale of gray," Tuchel said. "It was not a single decision, not a single choice — you don't just say one day 'I resist.'

"Every day you had to decide if you were going to go with the Nazi system or step aside. To resist is a long-term decision," he added.

Guitar_Monkey

Asry wrote: »

a) the fact that membership of the Nazi Youth was a legal requirement of boys of his age in Germany at that time (The Third Reich in Power, Richard J Evans, 2005)

You beat me to it Asry. Don't think Gigino is too interested in the truth though.

Asry

Guitar_Monkey wrote: »

You beat me to it Asry. Don't think Gigino is too interested in the truth though.

Oh, cool Glad to know that I'm not alone in being irritated

gigino

Guitar_Monkey wrote: »

Don't think Gigino is too interested in the truth though.

On the contrary, I am extremely interested in the truth I would refer you to an excellent book on the subject, which I read.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Hitler_Youth.html?id=v9xJPe0QchcC

Most young Germans did join. However, accounts I've read say that some other young men did not comply with the law in joining and were not punished. If Ratzinger really did not want to join, he did not have to. A few people avoided the service entirely, but this was illegal and their parents (keep in mind that all people in question were minors) faced a fine of 150 Mark, or prison time if they failed to report their teenage offspring.
You could also be ineligible for the Hitler youth if you did not comply with their standards of moral and honor. Should'nt El Papa have been a conscientous objector to the murder of millions of his fellow countrymen in concentration camps, by the Nazi Party which he joined ?

Next thing is, Father Federico Lombardi, chief spokesman for the Pope, will say ""The Pope was never in the Hitler Youth, never, never, never,''
Oh, he did already say that....except he was caught out, as the Pope
had earlier admitted in numerous interviews that he was in the Nazi youth movement towards the end of the war !!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/5314338/Dont-mention-the-Popes-Hitler-Youth-past-says-the-Vatican.html

And you expect them to tell the truth about child abuse ?

Baggio1

am convinced this trip and congress WONT happen,, Benedict i am convinced will have to leave Rome sometime this year,, leaving the throne free for "the man of dark secrets" to usurp , its going to be veryy tough, but!, the people who cheer at Benedicts exit homosexuals, church haters etc? - they will be among the FIRST to suffer in the coming islamic/communist conquest of europe etc...... so thats my 10cents worth...
Pray for Benedict he is surrounded by danger and traitors as we speak.

Manach

To paraphrase another of Mr. Evan's books "The Third Reich in power", Nazi Germany was a society completed dominated by that Party except for the army and the RCC. How exactly then would a teenage Bavarian boy know of the concentration camps during WWII?

gigino

Do you think no Germans noticed the intimidation of Jews, the Jews fleeing the country even pre-war, the millions of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, handicapped etc rounded up and put like cattle on to freight trains ?
The closure and confinscation of Jewish businesses + assets.

Would you take moral guidance from someone who saw nothing wrong with Nazi Germany , and who refused to be a conscientous objector ? ...when not that far away millions of his fellow countrymen were putting many millions of people in to gas chambers / ovens.

georgieporgy

The purpose of the Holy Father's visit is the 50th International Eucharistic Congress;

Since Pope Benedict XVI announced that the 50th International Eucharistic Congress will be held in Dublin in June 2012, people have been asking "what exactly is a Eucharistic Congress and what is its purpose?"
A Eucharistic Congress is an international gathering of people which aims to:

• promote an awareness of the central place of the Eucharist in the life and mission of the Catholic Church
• help improve our understanding and celebration of the liturgy
• draw attention to the social dimension of the Eucharist.

for further info read here

http://www.iec2012.ie/index.jsp?p=107&n=134

gigino

"Maybe he could do a few book signings at selected schools, magdalene laundries, industrial school, orphanages etc where abuses too place ? And bring some of the 90 billion fortune of the Vatican as compensation ?"

charlemont wrote: »

Exactly, If he doesn't address these issues than his visit is pointless..

There is hope some of those issues will be addressed before then. Last week the UN committee against torture ordered a statutory inquiry in to abuses in some of the Roman Catholic institutions in Ireland, and the institutions last Friday finally agreed to say they will co-operate with the inquiry.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0611/magdalene.html

Maybe if he comes, he will come to plead leniancy for his employees, the accused, in the statutory inquiry ordered by the UN committee against torture ?

n.b. Interesting piece on the Pat Kenny radio show on now, about 200 cases of clerical sexual abuse etc

georgieporgy

it would be nice if threads stayed on topic .

Fanny Cradock

gigino, take you axe-grinding elsewhere.

gigino

The thread title is " If Pope Benedict was to visit Ireland next year".

Surely people are entitled to speculate what he may do - or be called to do - if he were to come here next year ?

Fanny Cradock

Yes, that appears to be the point of the thread.

Of course, if the words "or called to do" are really a clause to give you permission to talk about Nazism etc then, no, it's not the point of the thread.