Mike Phillips Try against Ireland/What do we think of Wales' personal linesman?

Daniel S

Your opinion?

"Is it the same ball?"

"Course it is, it'll give us a free try!"

Redsock

As a ref myselfi am loathe to criticise anyone from the reffn fraternity but peter allen is the worst ref I have ever seen at the professional level and I always suspected his knowledge of the laws was suspect now I am certain.

lusaka

I have to say that as dissapointing as the try being given was, we were in that situation because Sexton does not have the bottle for it. what a shocker of a kick.

Of course everyone can have a bad kick but then when he had the chance to draw level with a SIMPLE kick he missed it.

International players should be able to show consistency yet he he completely lacks it. There was no shift in momentum as BOD and Kidney says...Wales didnt play any better after they got the try. we were poor all round but I think that sexton was the biggest factor in our loss.

Im not bashing him. I hope that he can show his skills week in week out for Ireland but at the moment he cant.

phog

Do we need another thread on the game?

Daniel S

phog wrote: »

Do we need another thread on the game?

On the linesman, don't need another thread on one of the worst games (minus the last 30 seconds) in a good while.

andyman

lusaka wrote: »

I have to say that as dissapointing as the try being given was, we were in that situation because Sexton does not have the bottle for it. what a shocker of a kick.

Of course everyone can have a bad kick but then when he had the chance to draw level with a SIMPLE kick he missed it.

International players should be able to show consistency yet he he completely lacks it. There was no shift in momentum as BOD and Kidney says...Wales didnt play any better after they got the try. we were poor all round but I think that sexton was the biggest factor in our loss.

Im not bashing him. I hope that he can show his skills week in week out for Ireland but at the moment he cant.

This isn't the O'Gara V Sexton thread. And to respond, O'Gara was poor as well today.

Poor call by the TJ, but it's not the reason we lost. There are a number of other reasons for it.

Daniel S

andyman wrote: »

This isn't the O'Gara V Sexton thread. And to respond, O'Gara was poor as well today.

Poor call by the TJ, but it's not the reason we lost. There are a number of other reasons for it.

No, I think that was pretty much the reason we lost, if they didn't get it (or sexton got the penalty) we'd have won.

Wagon

I don't blame the linesman because he might have missed where the original ball went. We're only human.

I DO blame him on making a call on something that he couldn't be certain on. When the ref asked him if it was the same ball, he should have said "im not certain, we should use the video ref". I mean, that's what he's fúcking there for isn't it? But for him to just say "yes its the same ball" without being certain...that's what ruins games.

I'm pissed off with rugby refs in general these days. There are a few who should be shown the door.

lusaka

lusaka wrote: »

International players should be able to show consistency yet he he completely lacks it.

Just to call you up on this, what say you of the consistency of BOD during the 6N? D'Arcy? David Wallace? Luke Fitzgerald? DOC?

All of these are Lions, and are all clearly International Standard, yet not one of them has been consistent in any regard throughout the six nations.

Scapegoat hunting will always hurt a team, and especially when people have preconceptions about the players they are analysing.

Attributing the loss to one player's actions or inactions is testamount to madness. There was 80 minutes of gametime with 15 players on the pitch, that's 1200 "man minutes" of rugby, of which only Keith Earls, SOB and Bowe did pretty much the right thing in every one of theirs.

By all means criticise players, but look at a team openly, at all our weaknesses, instead of focussing your hurt and anger on one player, who completely and utterly does not deserve the weight of the team on their shoulders. Rugby is a team game, and time and time again we've seen teams beat "better" groups of players.

If you want to win as a team, you have to be a team, share wins as a team, and losses as a team. Looking at each player in a vacuum is next to useless in analysing a team game.

f1dan

Redsock wrote: »

As a ref myselfi am loathe to criticise anyone from the reffn fraternity but peter allen is the worst ref I have ever seen at the professional level and I always suspected his knowledge of the laws was suspect now I am certain.

Worse than James Jones?

Also, the ref can't really be blamed because he made the correct decision based on the information he had

andyman

andyman wrote: »

This isn't the O'Gara V Sexton thread. And to respond, O'Gara was poor as well today.

Poor call by the TJ, but it's not the reason we lost. There are a number of other reasons for it.

Well said, result is quite fair really, no one can have any gripe with that.

phog

RoverJames wrote: »

Well said, result is quite fair really, no one can have any gripe with that.

We may not have deserved a win but there is no way in hell they deserved their 7 points from their try.

tolosenc

lusaka wrote: »

I have to say that as dissapointing as the try being given was, we were in that situation because Sexton does not have the bottle for it. what a shocker of a kick.

O'Gara kicked a crossfield kick to Bowe out on the full in the first half. Only difference was that he was inside the 22 (ie he effed up much closer to his own line). O'Gara, therefore, also doesn't have the bottle.

Stupid stuff, and as said above, stop trying to turn this into a ROG vs Sexy debate.

The only reason that try happened is because the Irish weren't (and quite rightly so) expecting a quick throw. The TJ was a joke. It had to be a TMO call.

muincav

Like a lot of others here, having played the game the "TRY" was not in the spirit of the way I was taught to play Rugby, but it was in the spirit of the way Wales have allways played the game...I.E.- win even if it means cheating!
I think the linesman and the rest of the officials in the game today should take a long hard look at their performance.There should be an official apology from them and from Wales for knowingly accepting the try in an unsportsman like fashion.
Terrible game, but a terrible way to lose a game but an even more terrible way to win! Not sour grapes, just the truth...:mad:

BBDBB

if it were at all possible NEITHER side deserved to win, it was a dreadful game and both sides looked blunt in attack

however back OT

whilst the TJ made the wrong call, anyone who has played the game, knows that sort of thing happens, what was totally unprofessional was the way we reacted when the ball was hoofed out, we switched off.

copacetic

BBDBB wrote: »

if it were at all possible NEITHER side deserved to win, it was a dreadful game and both sides looked blunt in attack

however back OT

whilst the TJ made the wrong call, anyone who has played the game, knows that sort of thing happens, what was totally unprofessional was the way we reacted when the ball was hoofed out, we switched off.

Don't agree with that at all, the ball went directly into the crowd, as you say 'hoofed out'. Every player knew that meant no quick lineout could happen.

Someone pointed out earlier it's the equivalent of a quick tap and go when the ref has already pointed to the posts. It's not unprofessional at all.

BBDBB

copacetic wrote: »

Don't agree with that at all, the ball went directly into the crowd, as you say 'hoofed out'. Every player knew that meant no quick lineout could happen.

Someone pointed out earlier it's the equivalent of a quick tap and go when the ref has already pointed to the posts. It's not unprofessional at all.

sorry, but I disagree, virtually every ball that gets kicked into touch gets the same reaction in the professional era, the look and action to see if its "on" for a quick lineout, the professional reaction to that is to chase up the kick and "prevent" the quick lineout. That is a discipline, a good habit to get into, why switch off from good habits? thats not teh professional thing to do

lusaka

andyman wrote: »

This isn't the O'Gara V Sexton thread. And to respond, O'Gara was poor as well today.

Poor call by the TJ, but it's not the reason we lost. There are a number of other reasons for it.

Did I mention O'Gara once??? No

davidpfitz

BBDBB wrote: »

sorry, but I disagree, virtually every ball that gets kicked into touch gets the same reaction in the professional era, the look and action to see if its "on" for a quick lineout, the professional reaction to that is to chase up the kick and "prevent" the quick lineout. That is a discipline, a good habit to get into, why switch off from good habits? thats not teh professional thing to do

I agree - we weren't 'on'. But all the same, 19.2.d was clearly not adhered to and as such it should not have been a try. Welsh fault? Not - of course not. Linesman's fault - yes ... it's his job to know the rules. He should be dropped a level or two and have to prove his worth to officiate at this level again.

brianthebard

BBDBB wrote: »

sorry, but I disagree, virtually every ball that gets kicked into touch gets the same reaction in the professional era, the look and action to see if its "on" for a quick lineout, the professional reaction to that is to chase up the kick and "prevent" the quick lineout. That is a discipline, a good habit to get into, why switch off from good habits? thats not teh professional thing to do

I think this is a good point about chasing up the game, Ireland were amazingly lax in that regard, jogging from one side of the pitch to the other, jogging back down the pitch after wales kicked the ball into our half, seriously slow to attempt to stop wales, giving wales the chance to pass the ball at least two times every time before tackling, and painfully, painfully slow in chasing up Irish kicks - there was at least one time when hook or someone else fell at the 22 completely missing the catch, that was a potential try but no one had ran and hook had enough time to get up, chase the ball, pick it up, compose himself and make the kick before any irish player appeared on screen.

RuggieBear

Just going to edit the thread title slightly...Can this thread just be about the discussion of this particular incident please.

RuggieBear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRp1sYiQQVU

IMO it is not a try but what do i know...

lusaka

Deleted User wrote: »

Just to call you up on this, what say you of the consistency of BOD during the 6N? D'Arcy? David Wallace? Luke Fitzgerald? DOC?

.

First i would say that David Wallace has been one of the only highlights of the 6 nations for Ireland.

The rest havent been great of course but...

As for Luke, his passing has been poor and his attacking hasnt been great either but as a fullback his tackling and positioning has been good. THATS HIS JOB as a fullback

DOC has been off the boil a bit but he is trying to disrupt the lineouts and hit the rucks. THATS HIS JOB as a 2nd row.

BOD has defended well in the centre and, even though it hasnt always worked out this 6 nations he tries to attack in the line when he
can. as a centre THATS HIS JOB.

Sexton has missed important and often easy kicks throughout his young career. just before halftime against france the last day. wales today. At the vital time he has thrown bad passes. from a couple of turnovers against france the last day. threw one behind Darcy today and the ball was turned over. as an outhalf ITS HIS JOB to do these basics right but he simply does not.

I would love for him to be the fantastic player as his potential has shown.
But the standard he shows at the moment just isnt good enough.

Tim Robbins

On the assistant referee - it was a mistake. Refs make mistakes. But you loose games because you make mistakes. It's a bit lame blaming the ref.

If Paddy Wallace had a bit more skill or the welsh covering defense non existent we would have won.

lusaka

tolosenc wrote: »

Stupid stuff, and as said above, stop trying to turn this into a ROG vs Sexy debate.

Again, Did i mention O'Gara???????? No!

You completely misinterpreted what I was asking, I said what do you think of their consistency? None of them have been anything but inconsistent. DOC being phenomenal in game 1, and up and down since. Wallace being completely absent in game one, and again being up and down since.

Earls and SOB hasve been consistently good since we started the 6N, that's about it.

Sexton has thrown 2 bad passes since the 6N started, 2 passes that didn't go to hand. This happens. Sexton has been consistently excellent for Leinster over the last 12/15 months, and I wouldn't have any problem playing an in form Sexton against any side in the world.

With regard to your comment about the standard he is playing at the moment not being good enough, there are 12/13 players in the exact same boat, under performing over the last few weeks. ROG based on today would be worried about Warwick starting if there was a Munster game next weekend. The team is in a rut, and it is affecting players individually as well as as a team.

lusaka

Deleted User wrote: »

You completely misinterpreted what I was asking, I said what do you think of their consistency? None of them have been anything but inconsistent. DOC being phenomenal in game 1, and up and down since. Wallace being completely absent in game one, and again being up and down since.

I didnt misinterpret what you asked. You asked me about their consistency and i said that they have consistently done the basics of their jobs in their respective positions well, without doing other things great.
On the other hand sexton hasnt done the basics of his position well.

RuggieBear

No more about the outhalfs

[Jackass]

It was a terrible decision by the ref & linesman, but it's part of the game. Sometimes they go your way, some times they don't. I don't see the point in dwelling on them. Remember Hickies try that won the game against France in Lansdowne Road (iirc) and he was clearly in touch? These things go around and you win some and lose some.

The real point is that this decision didn't cost us the game. Our inability to put chances away and poor game plan did. Wales were there for the taking and we blew it.

Sexton was poor, O'Gara was very good, but the buck stops with the coaches. They made they game plan, they made the substitution and they picked the team.

Oh, and FYI, re the decision, even if it was the correct ball and it hadn't been touched, the Irish had formed the lineout anyway, so it was too late for a quick throw and still shouldn't have been allowed.

LeeroyJones

This thread is about the legitimacy of the try, and it was not legitimate. Black and white. People can scapegoat players if they want for what they did or did not do, or complain about Ireland's general performance till the cows come home. The fact remains that the linesman made a terrible call which undoubtedly shifted the momentum of the game.

CatFromHue

LeeroyJones wrote: »

This thread is about the legitimacy of the try, and it was not legitimate. Black and white.

The fact remains that the linesman made a terrible call which undoubtedly shifted the momentum of the game.

there really isnt much more to say about it to be honest

Quint2010

[Jackass] wrote: »

It was a terrible decision by the ref & linesman, but it's part of the game. Sometimes they go your way, some times they don't. I don't see the point in dwelling on them. Remember Hickies try that won the game against France in Lansdowne Road (iirc) and he was clearly in touch? These things go around and you win some and lose some.

Think that was BOD

Quint2010

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/9423369.stm

Gatlands thoughts on the decision. Very honest-fair play

Hippo

lusaka wrote: »

I have to say that as dissapointing as the try being given was, we were in that situation because Sexton does not have the bottle for it. what a shocker of a kick.

Of course everyone can have a bad kick but then when he had the chance to draw level with a SIMPLE kick he missed it.

International players should be able to show consistency yet he he completely lacks it. There was no shift in momentum as BOD and Kidney says...Wales didnt play any better after they got the try. we were poor all round but I think that sexton was the biggest factor in our loss.

Im not bashing him. I hope that he can show his skills week in week out for Ireland but at the moment he cant.

FFS! This post sums up EVERYTHING about Rugby on boards.ie. And...you're not even on topic!

duckysauce

RuggieBear wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRp1sYiQQVU

IMO it is not a try but what do i know...

no try- Kappy ask's dopey Scottish dope was it the same BALL ?, Dopey Scottish dope does not understand kaffa! or has a bet on the match! and says yes , you know by the look on the F++kers face he is wrong JAYUS, we were screwed big time and and the linesman ie dopey scot, ruled out the tmo decision , by being definate aggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fishtits

Just to put it to bed, as Gatland also stated, the TMO may only be consulted for a score decision, ie the legality of that "lineout" is not a TMO issue.

The Ref didn't see the incident so asked the TJ/AR who clearly stated it was the same ball... Kaplan is not at fault. Apart from some dubious "advantage over" calls, I thought he had a decent game.

Something tells me that was the last we'll see of Mr Allen anywhere other than a Scottish regional thirds match...

As for the team performance, I wasn't impressed TBH, I don't buy a previous poster's team is all blame the team naivety, the team is as good as its weakest member. I thought Fitzy was very poor, his championship performance in general has the air of someone distracted.

Darce is another that seems quiet by his own high standards, I'd give McFadden a run there.

BOD's a rock.

Heaslip was off colour today, Leamy is still a decent 8.

Leo for O'C is an on going argument, I suspect its the POC/DOC partnership thats keeping him out.

SOB is a major find, Ferris must be worried!

Bowe showed his class again, his line through the Welsh defence gifted BOD's try.

Earls is now searching out ball and I would be very slow to leave him out, he's a try scorer given half a chance, his defence is rock solid also. Check the stats, they're suprising...

Full marks to our tight head, technical assessment, adjustment and results.

Kidney et al have displayed a somewhat erratic bench replacement policy over the last few games, it appears almost as if he's panicking to please the masses... one week no changes (Leo gets 30 seconds) next week all on en masse, this week, Sexy on for Rog on 49mins? WTF? completely unsettled the team. Sorry Deccie, man up and answer this one... properly.

As for England? who knows, there is always added motivation to put one over them, but I suspect its not a happy camp, too many "children" in the squad is diverting management efforts in order to keep the peace rather than get on with the job is my take on it.

anonymous_joe

While the try was not legitimate, I see no point in dwelling on it. Allowing ourselves to do an Arsenal and blame an external factor for our own failings is a dangerous road to go down.

The try was the difference between the two sides, but our failure to capitalise on our own possession in the Welsh 22 was what really cost us this game, not the ref.

Guy:Incognito

It was a fairly simple one for the ref and imo he shouldnt have had to go to the tj at all. Without checking the wording of the law is it not that once it touches a person off the field it cant be taken quickly? Surely the ref saw it going in to the crowd, so whether its the same ball or not is irrelevant? Even if he didnt see it actually touch someone in the crowd how did he think it got back to welsh hads without touching anyone?

Happyhunter

Look lads these things happen. I'm sure many dodgy decisions have gone Irelands way in the past.
Get over it!
In all honesty the better team won. Ireland were very poor and Wales not much better, but they were better.

Tim Robbins

Happyhunter wrote: »

Look lads these things happen. I'm sure many dodgy decisions have gone Irelands way in the past.
Get over it!
In all honesty the better team won. Ireland were very poor and Wales not much better, but they were better.

Exactly. Gamesmanship plays a bigger role in Rugby than any other sport. Every scrum, FrontRows are going to be thinking "can I get away with this?". Every ruck, something similar happens.

A ref has to be make at least 100 major decisions in a game. If they are getting 95 right. They are reffing at the correct level.

Kaplin is a class ref and is up to international standard.

If a ref is consistently not keeping up with the play, is shouting things that don't make sense, not reading the game properly a la Jamie Jones or just on an ego trip - I'd be much more worried.

BBDBB

decisions go against you in rugby


its a part of the game and it evens itself out over time

of course its disappointing when the refs and TJ get it wrong


but lets be honest, whilst it changed the scoreline, it didnt change the momentum, we looked just as blunt and inneffectual before it as we did after it


suck it up and move on

cheers lads

Tim Robbins

BBDBB wrote: »

decisions go against you in rugby


its a part of the game and it evens itself out over time

of course its disappointing when the refs and TJ get it wrong


but lets be honest, whilst it changed the scoreline, it didnt change the momentum, we looked just as blunt and inneffectual before it as we did after it


suck it up and move on

cheers lads

+1

Wales went on to close the game out. If they didn't get the try they'd be attacking and we'd be trying to close it out.

It would have been a different game.

kenco

BBDBB wrote: »

decisions go against you in rugby


its a part of the game and it evens itself out over time

of course its disappointing when the refs and TJ get it wrong


but lets be honest, whilst it changed the scoreline, it didnt change the momentum, we looked just as blunt and inneffectual before it as we did after it


suck it up and move on

cheers lads

100% here. Dodgy decision for the Welsh no doubts but even with that score we had chances and just didnt take them. As the RTE panel said last night debating the try that wasnt is just distracting from the poor performance against a - lets not forget - very limited Welsh outfit

Guy:Incognito

Happyhunter wrote: »

Look lads these things happen. I'm sure many dodgy decisions have gone Irelands way in the past.
Get over it!
In all honesty the better team won. Ireland were very poor and Wales not much better, but they were better.

Everyone expects the odd few dodgey decisions, but the glaringly obvious stuff is what really gratis and i think a bit of giving out and debate is healthy.

GerM

No use crying and whining about it. We didn't deserve to win. We won a triple crown before when Shaggy put a foot in touch against England in Twickenham that was missed. Swings and roundabouts.

It would be much more pertinent if we questioned as to why we weren't already 10 points clear or couldn't score after that try.

Risteard

Was clearly not a try, but that's rugby you chance your arm and if you get away with it, fantastic, Irish teams have been doing it for years.

But how Allan who's woeful at ML gets to be TJ/Ar at a major international is beyond me. Even the Changlengs can manage the TJ job without any significant **** ups.

yosser hughes

Maybe somebody should create a facebbok page petition type thing?:D Or protest outside the British embassy? Boycott leeks?:D Remember all that stuff over Thierry Henry.:rolleyes:
The TJ was of course wrong by the way,but these things happen.It isn't fair but there you go.:(

thomond2006

Just watched it on iPlayer again. Quality wasn't great because my connection here is awful but from what I can tell Peter Allan sees the ball boy giving the Welsh player on the touchline a new clean ball.

I mean ffs like!

Of course it's no use moaning. Sh1t happens.

BBDBB

Just for clarity - IRB Regulations - Law 19.2

(a) A player may take a quick throw-in without waiting for a lineout to form.
(b) For a quick throw-in, the player may be anywhere outside the field of play between the
place where the ball went into touch and the player’s goal line.
(c) A player must not take a quick throw-in after the lineout has formed. If the player does, the
quick throw-in is disallowed. The same team throws in at the lineout.
(d) For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. A quick throw-in is
not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in and

an opponent who carried it into touch. The same team throws into the lineout.


The ball went into the crowd so was touched by another person other than the lineout taker

The ball used wasnt that original ball as it came from the ballboy

SNAKEDOC

I'm sick of people saying ah well it happened these things happen in sport and there is nothing we can do. but yes there is a whole lot that can be done. I mean lets not go mad but wee don't have to turn the decision around and play a rematch but have it out with the tj and ref sit them down say lads look here you cxcked that right up and cost one team the game. you should have done this you should have done this as per the rules of the game which you both know now for that you won't ref at this level for a year. then an apology from the refs and the welsh captain. I was well upset over the incident and the henry one too but its a game and all games should be played fair how come Ireland always get the **** end of the stick when it comes to these matters yes these things happen but why always to us!

Phonehead

Here is my take - It was quiet obvious the TJ saw that A) It wasn't the original It was touched by the ballboy

Cleary an investigation needs to be carried out to see what this TJ/ or people close to him had to gain if any from this Welsh win Or perhaps he really just doesn't know the rules.

Also the Welsh attitude is as always not in the Spirit of the game.

On the Match, two very poor teams on show today!