minimalist running Saucony Kinvara v Nike free 3.0

jimmypnufc

Hi
I was wondering if anyone out there has had experience with both the Saucony Kinvara and Nike free 3.0. After a long succession of injuries i have been running reasonably successfully with the nike free 3.0 for the last couple of months allbeit over short distances. Even though I have found them an excellent shoe for forcing me to change my running gait i have found them quite tough on my lower legs. I feel as though i might need something that has a slightly more "shoe-like" feel to it for when i begin to up my distance but still want to continue running in the minimalist ethos. I have heard great things about the saucony kinvara and was wondering if any running buffs have tried both
cheers
James

mloc123

I like Nike lunar-racer as an every day shoe. 200g each for a size 10, they are a lightweight racer but have enough support for running in every day. Have you tried Nike free run? Its what they call the free 5.0 these days, meant to have a little more support than the 3.0

cwgatling

I have both of them in the shoe rotation at the moment. I'd say the Kinvara is what you are after. The sole feels thicker and it has more mid foot support. The upper is great on the Kinvara. I got mine in Amphibian King in Bray - super shop.

Personally I prefer the 3.0, but then I don't have any issues with the lower legs. The edition before this current one is my all-time favourite shoe. You could also try the Free Run +, which is a step above the 3.0.

cwgatling

^ Got there before me :cool: I might have a look at that Lunar Racer myself.

menoscemo

I have read a few reviews that have described the lunar racer as a much more minimalist shoe that the Nike Free's. The 'free' bit is a bit of a marketing gimmick.

I have the Lunar Racers myself. They wouldn't last me much longer than a half marathon as my gait gets a bit wonky as I tire though I know of others that run ultras in them.

Most racing flats and cross country spikes (you can by them without the spikes) are pretty minimalist.

jimmypnufc

thanks for all the feedback...think i'll take the plunge with a pair of kinvaras...anyone any advice on how they fit-had to send my nike frees back and reorder a full size up...

Oafley Jones

menoscemo wrote: »

I have read a few reviews that have described the lunar racer as a much more minimalist shoe that the Nike Free's. The 'free' bit is a bit of a marketing gimmick.

I have the Lunar Racers myself. They wouldn't last me much longer than a half marathon as my gait gets a bit wonky as I tire though I know of others that run ultras in them.

Most racing flats and cross country spikes (you can by them without the spikes) are pretty minimalist.

The lunar Racers are like boots in comparison to the 3.0s. They're not much more than socks, the Free + are a far more substantial shoe though.

menoscemo

Oafley Jones wrote: »

The lunar Racers are like boots in comparison to the 3.0s.

Are you confusing Lunar Racers with Lunar Glides?

T runner

cwgatling wrote: »

I have both of them in the shoe rotation at the moment. I'd say the Kinvara is what you are after. The sole feels thicker and it has more mid foot support. The upper is great on the Kinvara. I got mine in Amphibian King in Bray - super shop.

Personally I prefer the 3.0, but then I don't have any issues with the lower legs. The edition before this current one is my all-time favourite shoe. You could also try the Free Run +, which is a step above the 3.0.

Very interested in the triangular lugs on the outsole of the Kinvara. They are for weight control but would the grip be good?

Im looking for a racer for a race with road and mountain.

RacoonQueen

T runner wrote: »

Very interested in the triangular lugs on the outsole of the Kinvara. They are for weight control but would the grip be good?

Im looking for a racer for a race with road and mountain.

I've worn the Kinvaras on a damp track and there was one or two minor slips. Not sure how good the grip would be on the hills.

@Jimmy - the kinvara's are a snug fit but I haven't had any problems from getting the same size as my normal road shoes. Was worried when I first tried them on but they've turned out ok.

cwgatling

Trunner, I had a look there and they are the best-gripped of all my shoes (Free 3, Run Plus, Mizuno Wave Musha, Asics DS Racer) in that those lugs stick out a fair bit from the sole in the forefoot. I don't do any mountain running, but I've worn them on trails and never had a bother. If you're in Dublin and want to take them for a spin, be my guest.

In terms of sizing, I'm a 10 in the Kinvara, 9.5 in the Nikes and 9 in everything else! To be honest, I could probably use a 10 in the Free 3.0's too, but I got them online and couldn't be bothered sending them back.

jimmypnufc

thanks again for the info

Oafley Jones

menoscemo wrote: »

Are you confusing Lunar Racers with Lunar Glides?

Nope...





As I said, the free 3.0s are like socks in comparison.

mloc123

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Nope...

[IMAGE]

[IMAGE]

As I said, the free 3.0s are like socks in comparison.

lunar racer 1 is much nicer than racer 2 IMO, bought a pair last week in the US. Guy in the shop said that Nike have started making them again after the less than positive reception of the 2.

menoscemo

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Nope...

As I said, the free 3.0s are like socks in comparison.

Fair enough. For me the Lunar racers a re like socks and certainly weigh no more than a slipper!! It's a bit unfair to say they are like wearing a boot. Anyways, you have got me intested in the Nike Free 3.0s, anywhere in ireland that stocks them?

TFBubendorfer

mloc123 wrote: »

lunar racer 1 is much nicer than racer 2 IMO, bought a pair last week in the US. Guy in the shop said that Nike have started making them again after the less than positive reception of the 2.

I agree fully. I love the racer 1 and think they really screwed up big time with the racer 2.

Incidentally, I've heard the rumours of the original design being resurrected as well. great stuff, my last pair of the original racers is on the way out.

RacoonQueen

When I was buying the Kinvara's I was mulling between them and the free. I chose the kinvara's because I'm in love with Saucony..

jb-ski

hi,
i'm looking for advice.

when is one ready for a 'minimalist' shoe? I normally wear Saucony neutral shoes, and am curious to try out the Kinvara's.

i'm running Connemara so would need to have new shoes broken in soon, so need to buy shoes asap.
Should i stick to Pro Grid's or something for now, and experiment later in year, (Berlin is main target for 2011).

I've done over 500 miles this year, injury free (1780miles 2010) so i don't want to cause difficulties for myself, by introducing something new just for the sake of it.

any ideas?


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055838513

Just discovered this thread and am 1. embarrassed by my lack of variety in running shoe collection & 2. embarrassed by my lack of knowledge of the 50 zillion types of runners for different things!

RacoonQueen

I'd wait till after Connemara before considering wearing the kinvara's for long distances. They are very light and slipper like completely different from your average saucony shoe. You could get them now and use them for your shorter runs, don't think you'd have built up to whatever distance you're doing in Conn in them.

Woundedknee.

jb-ski wrote: »

hi,
i'm looking for advice.



I've done over 500 miles this year, injury free (1780miles 2010) so i don't want to cause difficulties for myself, by introducing something new just for the sake of it.

any ideas?

Are you looking to fix something that isn't broke? I'd say stick with what you have and maybe try a racing flat for racing.

jb-ski

@RQ, i think that's good advice. probably not a good time for experimenting.

@WK, as usual i'm looking for any alternative to improve without traing harder (better):)

finlma

As someone who has always been told they pronate I decided recently to switch from supported runners to minimalist runners. I bought a pair of Kinvara only a few weeks ago and found I had them broken in after only a week. I'm doing all my runs in them, including a long run every week, and I've found them to be great. I've never run in Nike Free so can't compare but I can definitely recommend the Kinvara.

PaulieC

finlma wrote: »

As someone who has always been told they pronate I decided recently to switch from supported runners to minimalist runners. I bought a pair of Kinvara only a few weeks ago and found I had them broken in after only a week. I'm doing all my runs in them, including a long run every week, and I've found them to be great. I've never run in Nike Free so can't compare but I can definitely recommend the Kinvara.

Did you change your style when you changed to flatter shoes ? i.e. change from heel first strike to midfoot ?

finlma

cambo_gueno wrote: »

Did you change your style when you changed to flatter shoes ? i.e. change from heel first strike to midfoot ?

Before changing shoes I was making an effort to become a forefoot runner and it seems to happen naturally in the Kinvara. I had stiff calves at first but that went and any shin pain that I suffered from previously is gone too.

finlma

finlma wrote: »

Before changing shoes I was making an effort to become a forefoot runner and it seems to happen naturally in the Kinvara. I had stiff calves at first but that went and any shin pain that I suffered from previously is gone too.

I wonder how durable these sort of shoes - lunaracer and kinvara are - anybody who has used them until end-of-life care to comment on how many miles they get versus conventional shoes? would the fact that they have less cushioning to start with mean that soon there is inadequate cushioning?

jimmypnufc

I bought my nike free 3.0@s off the nike website...about a week for delivery but definately go a whole size bigger than your everyday footwear

finlma

glasso wrote: »

would the fact that they have less cushioning to start with mean that soon there is inadequate cushioning?

I think the whole point is that the amount of cushioning is minimal. Its basically recreating running barefoot but with a little protection for the foot.

I'll come back in a few months and let you know what condition they're in.

So far though I much prefer them to anything I've run in before.

TFBubendorfer

glasso wrote: »

I wonder how durable these sort of shoes - lunaracer and kinvara are - anybody who has used them until end-of-life care to comment on how many miles they get versus conventional shoes? would the fact that they have less cushioning to start with mean that soon there is inadequate cushioning?

I put 600 miles on my previous pair of lunaracers.

The upper got a cut on one shoe well before that, but it did not stop me from wearing them.

My present pair has about 350 miles on them now. Weirdly enough, one of them just developed the same fault as the previous pair in the same position. I'm still going to wear them for my next marathon, though.

pablo t

T runner wrote: »

Very interested in the triangular lugs on the outsole of the Kinvara. They are for weight control but would the grip be good?

Im looking for a racer for a race with road and mountain.

try the inov 8 f-lite 230s t runner. very low profile heel, extremely flexible sole and light too. i do 90% of my mileage in them and they are fine for the road and provide a reasonable grip off road. you might want a little more grip for very muddy conditions.
I'll be wearing them on saturday for the Wicklow Way Ultra and would imagine that they will be perfect for the underfoot conditions of that race. Road shoes would be fine for that course anyway

Heres a link for them

T runner

pablo t wrote: »

try the inov 8 f-lite 230s t runner. very low profile heel, extremely flexible sole and light too. i do 90% of my mileage in them and they are fine for the road and provide a reasonable grip off road. you might want a little more grip for very muddy conditions.
I'll be wearing them on saturday for the Wicklow Way Ultra and would imagine that they will be perfect for the underfoot conditions of that race. Road shoes would be fine for that course anyway

Heres a link for them

Hi Pablo,

Thanks for that. I will consider them for a dry day. Unfortunately this descent is steep grass so they may not have the lenght of lug to cut into the grass and stop slippage on a wetter day.


Im looking at the Saucony Peregrine for a wet day option, which is in the same range as the Kinvara. 258 grams and grip looks agressive. Dont know how they'll run on the road though.

Might get a apir of th f-lites anyway. good pair to have for summer running
Thanks again

T Runner

PaulieC

Where does one buy these minimal shoes ? The normal shops like elverys, runways etc. don't seem to have them. The only things I have seen is the VFFs in 53 Degrees north and the Merrel Trail Glove in Schuh. I'm not sure about either of these though

finlma

The specialist running shops stock them. There are a few in the Dublin area or 1 in Galway. Probably more but I'm not aware of them.

PaulieC

Thanks!
Final question: when you changed to the more flat shoes did you find forefoot running easier? I've been doing it now for about 4 weeks, over the sore calves, but I find that I spend too much time thinking about not heel-striking. I think it's because of the huge heels in my asics

finlma

cambo_gueno wrote: »

Thanks!
Final question: when you changed to the more flat shoes did you find forefoot running easier? I've been doing it now for about 4 weeks, over the sore calves, but I find that I spend too much time thinking about not heel-striking. I think it's because of the huge heels in my asics

I was the exact same. I was trying to strike with the forefoot when running in Asics and my calves were getting stiff after even short runs. Since switching to the Kinvara the forefoot strike has come more naturally and the calf stiffness slowly eased. The trick is to start off slowly. Only do short runs until your legs adjust. It will take a good few weeks.

PaulieC

yeah, I've been building it up very slowly. Started off doing 2 miles in three short runs. Then a mile 3/4 times a week, then 2 miles 3/4 times a week etc. I did 4 miles last night, calves were fine, but I had numb toes in both feet, blisters on my right sole and sore on the top of my right foot. All of this I attribute to the asics. Ever since I got them they've been nothing but trouble. I went back to my old (old) Nikes last week and they were great, no problems at all, except for they were in bits, heels flapping and coming off. I just this morning got a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves, so I'm gonna try them out. I did a couple of miles a few weeks ago in extremely flat shoes and they were fine, so the merrels should work, hopefully.

Thanks again!

thirstywork2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=842vdGd4q9s

good video on the kinvara

RacoonQueen

If you're in Dublin base2race and cyclesuperstore both stock kinvaras.

what price are they going for in said Dublin shops (the Kinvaras)?

violator13

newtons are also worth a look at.

digger2d2

glasso wrote: »

what price are they going for in said Dublin shops (the Kinvaras)?

€110 ish.....

PaulieC

After getting my new merrell trail gloves on Tuesday, I was eager to try them out. Despite having some pain on the top of my right foot from Monday, I went out just to run a mile, to see if the flat shoes were any use.
I felt great whilst running, really light and easy, with a straight back and very little up and down movement. It felt especially good not having to concentrate on NOT landing on my heel in big thick soles, which is what I was doing before. Really, I got into stride almost immediately and did 5 miles and it felt like 500 metres, so easy was it...
Hopefully I'll continure to run that easy

violator13

do the nike free run run small sizing?

cwgatling

Yeah, I go a 1/2 size up with them.

ollietrex

@cambo_gueno Good to hear about he merrell trail gloves, just ordered a pair.

Been running in vibram five finger on the grass for the last while and want something a bit more on the road.

PaulieC

The merrells aren't much more. I think the sole is just 4mm with a 1mm plate at the forefoot. I'd transition slowly to the road in them. I've been getting sore tendons in my feet when I go longer than 6 or 7 miles. They are wonderfully light and airy though. I tried a lend of saucony peregrines (trail version of the kinvara)last night and I could really feel the extra weight. The cushioning was nice though after the complete lack of padding in the merrells

ollietrex

Yep, not looking for much more.

Found after heal striking for such a long time moving to a minimalist shoe and running to learn again has made running so much more fun.

LionelNashe

cambo_gueno wrote: »

After getting my new merrell trail gloves on Tuesday, I was eager to try them out. Despite having some pain on the top of my right foot from Monday, I went out just to run a mile, to see if the flat shoes were any use.

ollietrex wrote: »

@cambo_gueno Good to hear about he merrell trail gloves, just ordered a pair.

Been running in vibram five finger on the grass for the last while and want something a bit more on the road.

Hey folks, How are the Merrell shoes now that you have had them a couple of weeks? A colleague sent me the link below and I think that when I replace my shoes next I will go for something minimalist

http://www.merrell.com/US/en/BarefootConnection

Dotcomdolly

I tired on a pair of Saucony Kinvara in A.K today, they felt great, but a 5 was too big & didn't want to make the commitment of them ordering in the 4.5 for me.

I also tried on a pair of minimalist Mizuno ones , can't remember the name what they were bright red and gaudy as hell....

I took a chance instead & ordered a pair of Nike Lunar Racer on mandmdirect for only €34! :eek: in the same size as my Pegasus, sure if they don't suit it wasn't an expensive mistake and I can use them on my lifting days in the gym.

violator13

Dotcomdolly wrote: »

I tired on a pair of Saucony Kinvara in A.K today, they felt great, but a 5 was too big & didn't want to make the commitment of them ordering in the 4.5 for me.

I also tried on a pair of minimalist Mizuno ones , can't remember the name what they were bright red and gaudy as hell....

I took a chance instead & ordered a pair of Nike Lunar Racer on mandmdirect for only €34! :eek: in the same size as my Pegasus, sure if they don't suit it wasn't an expensive mistake and I can use them on my lifting days in the gym.

good choice great racing shoe and training shoe.Can wear them everyday too.

Dotcomdolly

Dotcomdolly wrote: »

I tired on a pair of Saucony Kinvara in A.K today, they felt great, but a 5 was too big & didn't want to make the commitment of them ordering in the 4.5 for me.

I also tried on a pair of minimalist Mizuno ones , can't remember the name what they were bright red and gaudy as hell....

I took a chance instead & ordered a pair of Nike Lunar Racer on mandmdirect for only €34! :eek: in the same size as my Pegasus, sure if they don't suit it wasn't an expensive mistake and I can use them on my lifting days in the gym.

bargain - wish they were selling men's ones for that price - about €100 here in the shops....

Dotcomdolly

glasso wrote: »

bargain - wish they were selling men's ones for that price - about €100 here in the shops....

I also heard in A.K that they are very hard to get, out of stock everywhere.
These are the ones I got