Immigrant parents claiming citizenship.

MyKeyG

Not sure if this is connected to the Lisbon treaty but I saw on the news recently that Europe have overturned the law that states a parent can not claim Irish citizenship on the basis their child was born here. Can someone remind me of how the original law came about? I seem to recall it was as a result of a national vote or am I dreaming things?

oscarBravo

I thought it was about residency, rather than citizenship?

The judgement will have interesting implications in other EU member states. My Danish brother-in-law lives in Chile with his Chilean wife and their two children - if he decided to move home, she couldn't move with him as she's not an EU citizen. As I read the judgement, that policy is now in conflict with EU law.

caseyann

MyKeyG wrote: »

Not sure if this is connected to the Lisbon treaty but I saw on the news recently that Europe have overturned the law that states a parent can not claim Irish citizenship on the basis their child was born here. Can someone remind me of how the original law came about? I seem to recall it was as a result of a national vote or am I dreaming things?

You are dreaming things

caseyann

oscarBravo wrote: »

I thought it was about residency, rather than citizenship?

The judgement will have interesting implications in other EU member states. My Danish brother-in-law lives in Chile with his Chilean wife and their two children - if he decided to move home, she couldn't move with him as she's not an EU citizen. As I read the judgement, that policy is now in conflict with EU law.

Thats is awful Should be allowed to move with his family back if he wants.

The Orb

Parents could never claim citizenship on the basis of their child's citizenship. The recent ruling means that parents of Irish citizen children, regardless of their own status in the country,must be allowed residence in the country and be given a work permit. A ridiculous judgement and yet another means to circumvent the immigration laws. Needless to say once given a work permit they'll soon be demanding welfare. This applies to every EU country but is more relevant in this country thanks to the thousands of children born in this state to illegally resident parents who targeted this country thanks to the clause in the Anglo Irish agreement stating that every child born on the island, north and south, was entitled to citizenship. The Supreme Court ruled that this did not entitle parents to a right if residency but now the European Court of Justice has said otherwise. It is a total joke. So the lesson is if you are illegally in the state just knock up an Irish citizen or be knocked up by one and hey presto you can stay.

caseyann

The Orb wrote: »

Parents could never claim citizenship on the basis of their child's citizenship. The recent ruling means that parents of Irish citizen children, regardless of their own status in the country,must be allowed residence in the country and be given a work permit. A ridiculous judgement and yet another means to circumvent the immigration laws. Needless to say once given a work permit they'll soon be demanding welfare. This applies to every EU country but is more relevant in this country thanks to the thousands of children born in this state to illegally resident parents who targeted this country thanks to the clause in the Anglo Irish agreement stating that every child born on the island, north and south, was entitled to citizenship. The Supreme Court ruled that this did not entitle parents to a right if residency but now the European Court of Justice has said otherwise. It is a total joke. So the lesson is if you are illegally in the state just knock up an Irish citizen or be knocked up by one and hey presto you can stay.

Yep brings into the area of chancers. Have a baby with an Irish girl or guy and hang around till all settled and then file for divorce take half and win win.

The Orb

caseyann wrote: »

Thats is awful Should be allowed to move with his family back if he wants.

If the children are Danish citizens then the Chilean mother can claim residency and a work permit in Denmark

caseyann

The Orb wrote: »

If the children are Danish citizens then the Chilean mother can claim residency and a work permit in Denmark

But if they arent,which i am assuming oscarBravo is saying she cant.Long line of chasing down another avenue.Awful way to be especially when people show genuine long last relationship.

MyKeyG

oscarBravo wrote: »

I thought it was about residency, rather than citizenship?

The judgement will have interesting implications in other EU member states. My Danish brother-in-law lives in Chile with his Chilean wife and their two children - if he decided to move home, she couldn't move with him as she's not an EU citizen. As I read the judgement, that policy is now in conflict with EU law.

Ah yes residency, I knew it was amended a few years back when they thought refugees were breeding for residency. It's the details of that amendment I was trying to find out but just spotted it here IRISH NATIONALITY AND CITIZENSHIP ACT 2004. It is indeed now in conflict with EU law.

The Orb

caseyann wrote: »

But if they arent,which i am assuming oscarBravo is saying she cant.Long line of chasing down another avenue.Awful way to be especially when people show genuine long last relationship.

The father is Danish, the children are entitled to Danish citizenship. It's perfectly straight forward now.

The Orb

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ah yes residency, I knew it was amended a few years back when they thought refugees were breeding for residency. It's the details of that amendment I was trying to find out but just spotted it here IRISH NATIONALITY AND CITIZENSHIP ACT 2004. It is indeed now in conflict with EU law.

It has nothing to do with that act, it is to do with EU Treaty rights.

caseyann

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ah yes residency, I knew it was amended a few years back when they thought refugees were breeding for residency. It's the details of that amendment I was trying to find out but just spotted it here IRISH NATIONALITY AND CITIZENSHIP ACT 2004. It is indeed now in conflict with EU law.

Breeding for residencey is a bit harsh of a word to use.

The Orb wrote: »

The father is Danish, the children are entitled to Danish citizenship. It's perfectly straight forward now.

Ah i see thanks.

The Orb

caseyann wrote: »

Breeding for residencey is a bit harsh of a word to use.



Ah i see thanks.

It may sound harsh or coarse but illegal immigrants and asylum seekers (not refugees) WERE breeding for residency, they saw a loophole to be exploited and exploit it they did. Financially it is costing the state very dearly. And now it's going to get worse.

caseyann

The Orb wrote: »

It may sound harsh or coarse but illegal immigrants and asylum seekers (not refugees) WERE breeding for residency, they saw a loophole to be exploited and exploit it they did. Financially it is costing the state very dearly. And now it's going to get worse.

Of course i know that.
How will it get worse now?

MyKeyG

The Orb wrote: »

It has nothing to do with that act, it is to do with EU Treaty rights.

Yes but how do those rights affect the act?

The Orb

caseyann wrote: »

Of course i know that.
How will it get worse now?

Now that the state is obliged to give work permits to these parents it's only a matter if time before they start demanding social welfare if they can't find work. The majority of those granted residency under McDowell's IBC scheme are now entirely welfare dependent, costing the state hundreds of millions of euro each year. No wonder the country is banjaxed.

MyKeyG

caseyann wrote: »

Breeding for residencey is a bit harsh of a word to use.

I thought that at the time but IMO I found it the most fitting term.

The Orb

MyKeyG wrote: »

Yes but how do those rights affect the act?

Read the Zambrano judgement, citizen children must be allowed exercise their EU Treaty rights which now entails having their parents, on whom they depend, with them. The non-citizen parents must be facilitated in supporting their children. I don't have the text in front if me. It is an astonishingly stupid judgement and will have serious repercussions throughout the EU. The only way around thus is to amend the relevant article.

donkey balls

That aul bint rosemary&residents against racism was on news talk and wanted those parents mainly from Nigeria brought back to Ireland at the tax payers expense,How f**king unreal is that we have Irish&EU citizens that worked here finding them selves either working for a lot less or on the dole through no fault of there own trying to scrap by and that moran plus the imigrant counsel wanting us to pay for flights.

MyKeyG

The Orb wrote: »

Read the Zambrano judgement, citizen children must be allowed exercise their EU Treaty rights which now entails having their parents, on whom they depend, with them. The non-citizen parents must be facilitated in supporting their children. I don't have the text in front if me. It is an astonishingly stupid judgement and will have serious repercussions throughout the EU. The only way around thus is to amend the relevant article.

Yes I know that, I think that's where our wires were crossed. I'm not talking about EU Treaty as such. I know what the EU Treaty states. What I'm considering is how it affects The Irish Nationality and Citizenship act 2004 which went so far as to state that even a child born here whose parents were foreign nationals could not claim residency. I'm considering it in the sense that is this the first attack by Europe on our right to legislate as I'm sure that act went to vote by the people.

The Orb

MyKeyG wrote: »

Yes I know that, I think that's where our wires were crossed. I'm not talking about EU Treaty as such. I know what the EU Treaty states. What I'm considering is how it affects The Irish Nationality and Citizenship act 2004 which went so far as to state that even a child born here whose parents were foreign nationals could not claim residency. I'm considering it in the sense that is this the first attack by Europe on our right to legislate as I'm sure that act went to vote by the people.

Pure citizenship ius soli (automatic purely by birth in the state) was removed by the referendum in 2003. Zambrano doesn't affect it at all. The Zambrano case is an interpretation of Article 20 as requested by Belgium following an opinion by an advocate general. Zambrano is solely about the rights of the non-eu parents of eu citizen children in the citizen state . The right of residency is not portable eu wide.

southsiderosie

The Orb wrote: »

Parents could never claim citizenship on the basis of their child's citizenship. The recent ruling means that parents of Irish citizen children, regardless of their own status in the country,must be allowed residence in the country and be given a work permit. A ridiculous judgement and yet another means to circumvent the immigration laws. Needless to say once given a work permit they'll soon be demanding welfare. This applies to every EU country but is more relevant in this country thanks to the thousands of children born in this state to illegally resident parents who targeted this country thanks to the clause in the Anglo Irish agreement stating that every child born on the island, north and south, was entitled to citizenship. The Supreme Court ruled that this did not entitle parents to a right if residency but now the European Court of Justice has said otherwise. It is a total joke. So the lesson is if you are illegally in the state just knock up an Irish citizen or be knocked up by one and hey presto you can stay.

Unless I am reading the ruling incorrectly, this would only apply to the parents of children who had citizenship prior to the change in 2004 (since jus soli citizenship was ended). How many people would this ruling actually apply to, since this avenue has essentially been pinched off for the last seven years?

The Orb

southsiderosie wrote: »

Unless I am reading the ruling incorrectly, this would only apply to the parents of children who had citizenship prior to the change in 2004 (since jus soli citizenship was ended). How many people would this ruling actually apply to, since this avenue has essentially been pinched off for the last seven years?

No, it applies to the parent of any Irish citizen child, so if an illegal immigrant or failed asylum seeker has a child with an Irish citizen then voila, here's your residency and work permit. Watch the birth rate soar by the end of the year!

southsiderosie

The Orb wrote: »

No, it applies to the parent of any Irish citizen child, so if an illegal immigrant or failed asylum seeker has a child with an Irish citizen then voila, here's your residency and work permit. Watch the birth rate soar by the end of the year!

But birthright citizenship ended in 2004. Again, is there any sense of the scale here? I am not saying that people won't try to take advantage, but a lot of these issues were closed off with the 2004 citizenship change, so this legislation is effectively grandfathering in an unknown number of people.

MyKeyG

The Orb wrote: »

Pure citizenship ius soli (automatic purely by birth in the state) was removed by the referendum in 2003. Zambrano doesn't affect it at all. The Zambrano case is an interpretation of Article 20 as requested by Belgium following an opinion by an advocate general. Zambrano is solely about the rights of the non-eu parents of eu citizen children in the citizen state . The right of residency is not portable eu wide.

Right, gotcha. Cheers.

The Orb

southsiderosie wrote: »

But birthright citizenship ended in 2004. Again, is there any sense of the scale here? I am not saying that people won't try to take advantage, but a lot of these issues were closed off with the 2004 citizenship change, so this legislation is effectively grandfathering in an unknown number of people.

A lot were closed off, but if somebody illegally in the state now has a child WITH AN IRISH CITIZEN they will have to be given residency and a work permit.

oscarBravo

The Orb wrote: »

If the children are Danish citizens then the Chilean mother can claim residency and a work permit in Denmark

The children are Danish citizens, and their Chilean mother can't claim residency in Denmark. That's the law as it currently stands in Denmark, and it looks like it will have to change now.

It seems that you feel she shouldn't be allowed to live in Denmark with her children. Why is that?

RandomName2

MyKeyG wrote: »

Not sure if this is connected to the Lisbon treaty but I saw on the news recently that Europe have overturned the law that states a parent can not claim Irish citizenship on the basis their child was born here. Can someone remind me of how the original law came about? I seem to recall it was as a result of a national vote or am I dreaming things?

Yes - as far as I can see it has to do with the Lisbon Treaty.

As the EU Courts gain more control over our laws with successive EU constitutional amending treaties, so much more of this sort of thing we are likely to see.

Although this doesn't technically affect our citizenship laws, for what's its worth it gives ipso facto citizenship by granting open ended residency to any woman (and her partner) who gives birth in this country.

southsiderosie

The Orb wrote: »

A lot were closed off, but if somebody illegally in the state now has a child WITH AN IRISH CITIZEN they will have to be given residency and a work permit.

Yes and I am saying what are the numbers for that? I don't think this ruling will apply to that many people given that the jus soli loophole was closed seven years ago, and regardless of that, the rules for Ireland have always been that a child was entitled to citizenship through their parent or grandparent.

I guess there are two different issues here. One is the "anchor baby" question (to use a somewhat perjorative term), when neither of the parents are Irish citizens - this loophole was closed, and this rulign is simply a grandfathering mechanism. The other issue is having a baby with an Irish citizen, and having the right to stay through the jus sanguinis citizenship status of that child. From a family law perspective, the EU ruling makes sense, as to do otherwise would potentially deny the child access to one of its parents (if one parent took the child back to the home country in order to be able to support it or was deported without the child).

The main difference between EU courts and national legislative processes is that the EU courts use a human rights perspective to deal with these kinds of issues, and international norms are very clear in this regard (hence why family reunification rules are common in most Western democracies). While the concerns about future fraud are debatable, the EU court's ruling is very consistent with Western legal norms shaping both immigration and family law.

The Orb

oscarBravo wrote: »

The children are Danish citizens, and their Chilean mother can't claim residency in Denmark. That's the law as it currently stands in Denmark, and it looks like it will have to change now.

It seems that you feel she shouldn't be allowed to live in Denmark with her children. Why is that?

I don't feel that at all and I'm offended that you would suggest it. I don't know the Danish citizenship laws, I am assuming that the children will be Danish citizens, I was merely stating a fact, as I see it, in line with the new judgement.

View

RandomName2 wrote: »

Yes - as far as I can see it has to do with the Lisbon Treaty.

It has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty. Try reading the judgment in the case.

The Zambrano kids are EU citizens - thanks to a provision of Belgian law. As EU citizens they have certain rights - those cannot be impinged on by a member state (i.e. Belgium) just because they prove inconvenient.