Kenny rows with Sarkozy !

mustang01

Isnt it a breath of fresh air to see a strong Taoiseach representing us over in Europe and takeing no **** form dat french muppett Sarkozy trying to take away our low corporate tax rate.

We would be in such a better situation today had Kenny and Noonan been da ones dat went over to negotiate a fair and proper bailout unlike da previous clowns of Cowen and Lenahan who just bent over da table and let demselves be ridden stupid !

Lets hope its a sign of things to come where da people we elect actually stand up and fight for us !

oppenheimer1

mustang01 wrote: »

Isnt it a breath of fresh air to see a strong Taoiseach representing us over in Europe and takeing no **** form dat french muppett Sarkozy trying to take away our low corporate tax rate.

We would be in such a better situation today had Kenny and Noonan been da ones dat went over to negotiate a fair and proper bailout unlike da previous clowns of Cowen and Lenahan who just bent over da table and let demselves be ridden stupid !

Lets hope its a sign of things to come where da people we elect actually stand up and fight for us !

I doubt it. The bailout package was negotiated through a set of rules devised by the EU and IMF. But it is heartening to see the new administration fighting for the Irish corner though at some stage compromise will have to be made.

dixiefly

I agree with you.

Amazing how, over on politics.ie, a FF poster opens a thread criticising him for "arguing with our paymasters" .........not mentioning why they are our paymasters in the first place!

http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/155668-enda-rowing-our-paymasters.html

Bullseye1

We should lower CTR and encourage more American investors.

mustang01

ha , love to see the reaction den Bullseye but think we be takeing da piss altogether !

dont agree with u der Oppen, absolutely raped we wer coz of da muppetts n da last government ! we held a lota negotiation power back den just like we do now coz dey b ****less ireland decide to do anything dat would cause da whole euro system to collapse !

was only just before da election dat Cowen and Lenihan wer sayn absolutely no change could be done with the bailout deal but a few weeks later with new government ders already an interest rate change planned ! says everything !

mike65

r u txtn?

20Cent

Just shows how much FF put party before country. A rate reduction and stronger negotiations were possible but FF preferred to say it wasn't rather than admit they got a bad deal.
Fair play to Enda it was always said he is good behind the scenes and not a performer for the media. Hope this is true.

Laois_Man

I'm not a FF apologist, they got NO vote from me 2 weeks ago. But this so called "renegotiation" was always on the cards. It's not something that has been mentioned only since Wednesday when Enda became boss or since election day. So no exaggerated praise please!

galwayrush

Laois_Man wrote: »

I'm not a FF apologist, they got NO vote from me 2 weeks ago. But this so called "renegotiation" was always on the cards. It's not something that has been mentioned only since Wednesday when Enda became boss or since election day. So no exaggerated praise please!

Lenehin said on more than a few occasions that any renegotiation of the bailout was impossible.:rolleyes:

johngalway

Laois_Man wrote: »

But this so called "renegotiation" was always on the cards.

Oh. No. It. Wasn't.

Lendahand kept on saying, again and again, that it was impossible to renegotiate the deal and FG were making false promises to the Irish people.

The spoofer.

Scofflaw

mustang01 wrote: »

ha , love to see the reaction den Bullseye but think we be takeing da piss altogether !

dont agree with u der Oppen, absolutely raped we wer coz of da muppetts n da last government ! we held a lota negotiation power back den just like we do now coz dey b ****less ireland decide to do anything dat would cause da whole euro system to collapse !

was only just before da election dat Cowen and Lenihan wer sayn absolutely no change could be done with the bailout deal but a few weeks later with new government ders already an interest rate change planned ! says everything !

English, mofo - speak it or GTFO.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Amtmann

More on this here.

P. Breathnach

Sometimes the facts spoil a good rant:
1. The row was not about our bailout terms, but a proposal to adopt a Common Corporate Tax Base, a matter that is largely technical, but which some people regard as the thin end of a wedge which might erode out tax independence [See http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0311/euro-business.html].
2. Cowen also rowed with Sarkozy on the same matter [See http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0205/1224289077668.html].
3. Everybody rows with Sarkozy: he's a feisty little bugger, and annoying as hell.

aftermn

I didn't vote for Inda, but if he is arguing with that muppet Sarkozy, well maybe I was wrong.
Go to it boy, your getting bigger by the hour.

Seriously though, politics, being what it is, do we really stand a chance?

Hopefully enough of the rest of Europe knows that failure for us means the end of Europe as an entity. It leaves them all as small fry in a pool of predators. But how much is this worth?

Kristopherus

Would love to see Sarky take on Ghadaffi on his own:) But of course that won't happen.:)

The Raven.

I would love to have heard that argument. Is there a clip of it anywhere?

evercloserunion

dixiefly wrote: »

I agree with you.

Amazing how, over on politics.ie, a FF poster opens a thread criticising him for "arguing with our paymasters" .........not mentioning why they are our paymasters in the first place!

http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/155668-enda-rowing-our-paymasters.html

Someone saying something stupid on P.ie?

Sorry, I just don't believe you.

Laois_Man

johngalway wrote: »

Oh. No. It. Wasn't.

Lendahand kept on saying, again and again, that it was impossible to renegotiate the deal and FG were making false promises to the Irish people.

The spoofer.

Yes it was. Lenihan was negotiating the interest rate cut in mid January and 2 weeks BEFORE the election, Ollie Rehn said the interest rate could be cut

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1021631.shtml

you're confusing renegotiation of the deal with cutting the interest. Not the same thing!

Denerick

KENNY: Lower the interest rate.

SARKOSY: Raise your corporation tax.

KENNY: Ah for feck sake Sarkosy.

MEDIA: KENNY HAS STRONG WORDS WITH SARKOSY. FINALLY WE HAVE A STRONG TAOISEACH.

Ahem...

johngalway

Laois_Man wrote: »

Yes it was. Lenihan was negotiating the interest rate cut in mid January and 2 weeks BEFORE the election, Ollie Rehn said the interest rate could be cut

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1021631.shtml

you're confusing renegotiation of the deal with cutting the interest. Not the same thing!

February.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0210/breaking11.html

Boskowski

mike65 wrote: »

r u txtn?

No I think he's a dadaist.

Laois_Man

johngalway wrote: »

February.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0210/breaking11.html

january

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/eurozone-economy.85l/

still confusing it

dan_d

Denerick wrote: »

KENNY: Lower the interest rate.

SARKOSY: Raise your corporation tax.

KENNY: Ah for feck sake Sarkosy.

Setting aside the smart comments, interesting to see how this will work out.The EU must have copped on to the fact they can use this as leverage.

I will watch with interest.

ei.sdraob

Kristopherus wrote: »

Would love to see Sarky take on Ghadaffi on his own:) But of course that won't happen.:)

Berlusconi tried that one :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se79NO4ODP0

notice how Gadaffi wipes his hand afterwards :P

HarryPotter41

galwayrush wrote: »

Lenehin said on more than a few occasions that any renegotiation of the bailout was impossible.:rolleyes:

There has been no renegotiation either, the Europeans have made soundings that there could be a change but it is in a wider context due to ongoing problems with Greece and Ireland with other probles for Spain and Portugal in the wings. Europe will decide what they want to do and we can shake our rattles all we want and they won't care

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Laois_Man wrote: »

you're confusing renegotiation of the deal with cutting the interest. Not the same thing!

I'm afraid I don't quite get the distinction you are drawing here. Is your point that the interest rate might be cut, but (say) any other commitments to put capital into the banks and stick to a particular level of budget deficit would remain?

Just to be clear, I'm coming at this from the perspective of doubt over whether we can repay this level of debt, even if repaid at a rate of 0% interest. Its not as if the money is being used for anything that will produce any financial return.

InchicoreDude

I dont think that Ireland should have to raise their corporation tax.

However, I do believe that the corporation tax hides an underlying problem in our education system. There is a myth in Ireland that our education system is one of the best in the world. It is not. Let me give you an example, When I did an engineering course, it was not possible for me to go to Europe on an exchange program. The reason: The level of Maths taught at European universities was higher than in Ireland. I looked at some exam papers for American universities and compared them to my exam papers here in Ireland, Again the level was a higher standard in America. I am sure there are many examples of this throughout our education system.

The point I am making is that wouldnt it be better for multi-nationals to locate here based on the quality of our graduates rather than low corporation tax. Ireland already has a huge advantage over European countries in that we are an English speaking country. So just getting our graduates on par with European countries, we should still possess an advantage over them. It bugs me that I saw no initative over the last few years to put Ireland in a strong position to raise the corporation tax and not lose any competitiveness. Maybe I am wrong and secondary school students nowadays are far brighter than I goven them credit for.

I dont think Ireland should raise it's corporation tax tomorrow as Europe wants. But I do think Ireland should look at putting in place a strategy for raising corporation tax in the future but the workforce are so strong and talented here that this tax raise will have little influence on whether companies decide to stay here or move elsewhere.

Back on topic, Kenny impressed me. But how foolish was it of Sarkozy to take on a newly elected taoiseach? Kenny really had to choice but to be strong in his viewpoint. If he hadnt been, How would that been portrayed in Ireland?

jmayo

mustang01 wrote: »

Isnt it a breath of fresh air to see a strong Taoiseach representing us over in Europe and takeing no **** form dat french muppett Sarkozy trying to take away our low corporate tax rate.

We would be in such a better situation today had Kenny and Noonan been da ones dat went over to negotiate a fair and proper bailout unlike da previous clowns of Cowen and Lenahan who just bent over da table and let demselves be ridden stupid !

Correction they let US be ridden stupid. :mad:

Kristopherus wrote: »

Would love to see Sarky take on Ghadaffi on his own:) But of course that won't happen.:)

He might if the Brits or Americans were willing to come in to rescue him.
Besides he would be more interested selling him spares for the old Mirages.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Berlusconi tried that one :P
...
notice how Gadaffi wipes his hand afterwards :P

Ah come on would you blame him on that one ?

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

There has been no renegotiation either, the Europeans have made soundings that there could be a change but it is in a wider context due to ongoing problems with Greece and Ireland with other probles for Spain and Portugal in the wings. Europe will decide what they want to do and we can shake our rattles all we want and they won't care

They will care if the government start making noises about default.

Remember biffo made one comment in Japan or somewhere in Far East and the Euro took a hit in the markets.
All it would take is Enda or someone close to finance portfolio to drop the D word as something that might be better for our countries long term viability and you would Merkel on the phone quick smart.
After Merkels election, I think it might be time to put a shot across their bows.
She won't react publicly prior to those elections.

Also drop into any interviews about harmonisation of taxes that there woudl also have to be harmonisation of pensions.

galwayrush

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

There has been no renegotiation either, the Europeans have made soundings that there could be a change but it is in a wider context due to ongoing problems with Greece and Ireland with other probles for Spain and Portugal in the wings. Europe will decide what they want to do and we can shake our rattles all we want and they won't care

We can cause serious problems for the future of the euro, we can't afford Europe's terms for the bailout so Europe better change it's stance because they now might realise we won't care about them if their cure hurts too much.

HarryPotter41

galwayrush wrote: »

We can cause serious problems for the future of the euro, we can't afford Europe's terms for the bailout so Europe better change it's stance because they now might realise we won't care about them if their cure hurts too much.

They also have the card that if we default we will have nowhere to go to seek any other finances to run the show while the ship steadies. Just turns it into one long dance with nowhere to go.

galwayrush

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

They also have the card that if we default we will have nowhere to go to seek any other finances to run the show while the ship steadies. Just turns it into one long dance with nowhere to go.

The way i see it is,
We can't afford to default.
We can't afford to pay the debt.
So, i think either way, as things stand , it's only a matter of time before we're totally screwed, so something has to change

dan_d

We keep our corporation tax where it is.

We leave the bailout deal sit for the moment - and go back to it at maybe 6 monthly intervals.

They've renegotiated Greece's deal to 7 years. And they're getting increasingly jittery about Portugal, Spain, and to an extent, Belgium.
Realistically, this deal has barely been in place 3 months. Let it pan out another few months, see how much more action the Gov is prepared to take to rein in spending, see how the other countries do - whether or not they need to be bailed out too - and then revisit it. There's no point going in guns blazing at this point in time, and then hailing it a disaster when nothing changes. In the long run for the EU, it's a hell of a lot better for us to be paying them back, be it with reduced interest or a longer term, than it is for us to hold up our hands and say we can't afford it.Especially if they've had to bail other countries out. But equally, we can't expect them to dance to our tune after a short time period and few token efforts that haven't achieved much towards their requirements.

I reckon....hasten slowly on this one.Our new Government isn't even in the door a week.Learn patience, and remember that saying - keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Scofflaw

dan_d wrote: »

We keep our corporation tax where it is.

We leave the bailout deal sit for the moment - and go back to it at maybe 6 monthly intervals.

They've renegotiated Greece's deal to 7 years. And they're getting increasingly jittery about Portugal, Spain, and to an extent, Belgium.
Realistically, this deal has barely been in place 3 months. Let it pan out another few months, see how much more action the Gov is prepared to take to rein in spending, see how the other countries do - whether or not they need to be bailed out too - and then revisit it. There's no point going in guns blazing at this point in time, and then hailing it a disaster when nothing changes. In the long run for the EU, it's a hell of a lot better for us to be paying them back, be it with reduced interest or a longer term, than it is for us to hold up our hands and say we can't afford it.Especially if they've had to bail other countries out. But equally, we can't expect them to dance to our tune after a short time period and few token efforts that haven't achieved much towards their requirements.

I reckon....hasten slowly on this one.Our new Government isn't even in the door a week.Learn patience, and remember that saying - keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

I agree with you about the letting it go a while - renegotiating while the ink is still wet is rarely a runner.

However, it's worth pointing out that the IMF/EU bailout money has relatively little to do with the mounds of debt in our banks. The money that was supposed to go into the banks in February (€8-10bn) was from the NPRF, not from the bailout facility (from which no such amount is even available yet). That means that if what we're talking about is being unable to pay back the IMF/EU bailout money, then we're talking about - very clearly - sovereign default, because barring €15bn available in that facility for the banks on a contingency basis, that loan is for Irish government deficit spending.

The IMF/EU bailout facility for Ireland has nothing to do with the €150bn currently owed by our bailed out banks to the ECB and CBI, or the c. €63bn they still owe in debt securities.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ei.sdraob

It is interesting how Greece gets a further reduction with no strings attached, yet we have to increase corpo rate in return :rolleyes:

dlofnep

Haggling over a packet of crisps to be honest. Seeking a 1% reduction in interest rates while the EU want a more harmonised corporation tax rate, if we are to get the said reduction.

This is not looking out for the interests of the Irish people. We're still going to be riddled with debt, at a level that is completely unsustainable. Default on debt, tell Sarkozy and Merkel to shut up and accept the reality of the situation. We're flat broke, and can't afford to shoulder private debt.

I love how people think Enda is doing Ireland a favour by rejecting any proposals to harmonize our corporation tax. It was never on the cards anyway.

Rubik.

While France's statutory corporate tax rate is 33%, it has an effective corporate tax rate of 19% due to generous credits and reductions built in to the system. This is all about Sarkosy facing into an election with an approval rating of around 30%. He's a spoofer.

Soldie

dlofnep wrote: »

Haggling over a packet of crisps to be honest. Seeking a 1% reduction in interest rates while the EU want a more harmonised corporation tax rate, if we are to get the said reduction.

This is not looking out for the interests of the Irish people. We're still going to be riddled with debt, at a level that is completely unsustainable. Default on debt, tell Sarkozy and Merkel to shut up and accept the reality of the situation. We're flat broke, and can't afford to shoulder private debt.

I love how people think Enda is doing Ireland a favour by rejecting any proposals to harmonize our corporation tax. It was never on the cards anyway.

How do you suppose we fund the deficit if we default?

ei.sdraob

Soldie wrote: »

How do you suppose we fund the deficit if we default?

SF want to go and borrow some more when we do so, since we cant have cuts :rolleyes:

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

How do you suppose we fund the deficit if we default?

Return to the markets with a sustainable level of debt. That is the key requirement of re-entering the markets. If our debt levels are unsustainable, nothing else matters. I am advocating a default of non-sovereign debt, not sovereign debt.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

Return to the markets with a sustainable level of debt. That is the key requirement of re-entering the markets. If our debt levels are unsustainable, nothing else matters. I am advocating a default of non-sovereign debt, not sovereign debt.

But SF dont want to cut welfare and public expenditure (if anything the plan is to increase it)

Soldie

dlofnep wrote: »

Return to the markets with a sustainable level of debt. That is the key requirement of re-entering the markets. If our debt levels are unsustainable, nothing else matters. I am advocating a default of non-sovereign debt, not sovereign debt.

If we default on the bank debt (whether or not it's even possible to decouple it from sovereign debt at this stage is another story) then our unsustainable debt problem goes away. The idea that at that point we can simply return to the bond markets to borrow from the very people we have just defaulted on is utterly ludicrous. That's not to mention the fact that returning to the bond markets will also increase our debt burden (it's just that we're not borrowing from the big bad EU or IMF). I'm in awe at the suggestion that the EU/IMF bail out is the reason why we cannot return to the bond markets. We wouldn't have needed a bail out at all if it weren't for the fact that we'd been priced out of the bond markets in November and December as a result of the reckless overspending that Sinn Féin wish to return to.

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

But SF dont want to cut welfare and public expenditure (if anything the plan is to increase it)

It wishes to make cuts, like any other party - but not cuts that impact on the most vulnerable in society.

Anonymous1987

There is some confusion here about what Sarkozy is looking for. He is not actually asking Ireland to increase it's corporate tax rate per se, he wants Ireland to participate in a common consolidated tax base.

The difference is that a common consolidated tax base involves harmonising rules such as the consolidated income to each Member State based on the location of factors sales, assets, employment and labour compensation for assessing tax not harmonising the tax rate. It is also worth keeping in mind that there are two considerations in a mind a mandatory and a voluntary system. Under a voluntary system, only companies that would pay a lower total EU tax burden would switch.

The consequences of changing the tax base will possibly see some firms facing lower or higher effective corporate tax rates based on changes to accounting treatment such as depreciation and the location of factors mentioned above. Countries facing lower corporate tax revenue as a result will have to make up the difference elsewhere.

Given that Ireland is likely to lose some tax revenue under such a system it would be counter productive to agree to the CCCTB in return for lowering the interest rate on our loans only to face lower tax revenue with which to repay the interest with. A 1% reduction in the interest rate of the EU portion of the bailout €45bn would generate a saving of €450m which isn't much especially when the lost corporate tax revenue is factored in. For example a loss of 11.5% CT revenue would offset this amount completely based on 2010's annual CT intake.

Spudmonkey

dlofnep wrote: »

It wishes to make cuts, like any other party - but not cuts that impact on the most vulnerable in society.

Vulnerable is a term used very broadly by political parties these days. I'm not sure everyone would have the same definition of it.

sollar

dlofnep wrote: »

It wishes to make cuts, like any other party - but not cuts that impact on the most vulnerable in society.

They want to increase the dole at a time when every working person is seeing their spending power shrivel. Crazy stuff.

MetallicaBass

i agree with you on that one

dlofnep

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Vulnerable is a term used very broadly by political parties these days. I'm not sure everyone would have the same definition of it.

I'd classify someone who has lost their job, and is scraping by as vulnerable. I'd classify old people who die because they can't afford their heating to be vulnerable.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

It wishes to make cuts, like any other party - but not cuts that impact on the most vulnerable in society.

@dlofnep

you can not have it both ways unfortunately


i think we will have no choice but to default (thats where I agree with you) due to the unsustainable debt levels

but i do recognize that the cuts will have to be made one way or another, the gravy train has derailed (thats where we go separate ways)

Spudmonkey

dlofnep wrote: »

I'd classify someone who has lost their job, and is scraping by as vulnerable. I'd classify old people who die because they can't afford their heating to be vulnerable.

And yet they include feckless layabouts who wouldn't work to warm themselves.

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

I'm in awe at the suggestion that the EU/IMF bail out is the reason why we cannot return to the bond markets.

The reason we cannot return to the markets is because we have an unsustainable level of debt. We will not be able to return to the markets in 3/4 years because we will still have an unsustainable level of debt.

This is the shared view of many economists.

dlofnep

Spudmonkey wrote: »

And yet they include feckless layabouts who wouldn't work to warm themselves.

No they don't. Anyone who is in a position to work, avails of a job offer and declines it without a real cause (IE: disability) isn't vulnerable, and that is not who Sinn Féin includes as vulnerable. We're all aware that there is serious welfare fraud in this state - and Sinn Féin would look to combat that to ensure that there is sufficient funding for those who really need it. We all know layabouts exist, who are happy to sit on their hole all day. We need to weed these out and not class everyone who is on welfare as this type of person. It is disgusting and intellectually dishonest.