A3's & A4's pls read this...and then do it!

morana

http://www.irishcycling.com/publish/news/art_5431.shtml

Great to see this article by Doran. it frustrates me to see guys on the front of the bunch hauling back a break when you have sprinter types sitting on. I am always perplexed by riders who chase a break down only to see Murtagh from lucan sitting there in the middle of the bunch or worse you are up the road and an a3 is on the front of the bunch pulling them along with a few A1's sitting behind them in the line!!!

I would like to start a campaign...Lets ditch the sprinters!!!

Beasty

I was going to suggest any sprinters out there have a right of reply here, but then I realised it's Friday, and they're probably at home, with their feet up, letting someone else do all the work ...

tawfeeredux

Seeing as I can't sprint to save my life, I'm always on for an attack when I'm able. Unfortunately, they usually end up as jumps rather than attacks & i'm hauled back with my legs & lungs in bits:rolleyes:.

One thing I've wondered about since I took up racing is what's the best way for 2 riders attacking to ride. Anytime I've ended up in this scenario, we end up doing short up & overs so it feels like I'm getting hardly any respite at all. Now I take Doran's point about driving hard & hurting to establish the break, but would it not be better for each rider to take, say, at least 30 seconds at the front before moving aside & letting the other guy through?

Idleater

tawfeeredux wrote: »

but would it not be better for each rider to take, say, at least 30 seconds at the front before moving aside & letting the other guy through?

I think this is a good approach. This is what I ended up doing when I got dropped in the club league race. Myself and some Orwell rider ended up doing 30 - 60 second stints while the other rested behind. You can tell when it's time for someone else to take over when the speed begins to drop. Of course hanging on is the inverse problem from establishing a breakaway.

Lumen

tawfeeredux wrote: »

One thing I've wondered about since I took up racing is what's the best way for 2 riders attacking to ride. Anytime I've ended up in this scenario, we end up doing short up & overs so it feels like I'm getting hardly any respite at all. Now I take Doran's point about driving hard & hurting to establish the break, but would it not be better for each rider to take, say, at least 30 seconds at the front before moving aside & letting the other guy through?

The less time you spend side by side the better.

In the A4 races I did last year I only saw one break with two riders succeed. They attacked in the first couple of km, got out of sight then stayed away the whole race. They were probably in the wrong cat.

kennyb3

Idleater wrote: »

I think this is a good approach. This is what I ended up doing when I got dropped in the club league race. Myself and some Orwell rider ended up doing 30 - 60 second stints while the other rested behind. You can tell when it's time for someone else to take over when the speed begins to drop. Of course hanging on is the inverse problem from establishing a breakaway.

Yeah always wondered this myself, myself and velobro got away in the swords league last year (we were prob in wrong category admittedly) after few km's and stayed away. We took turns of up to 2-3 mins at times, basically until one of us was hurting and then took a change. love to know whtas most efficient though.

shaungil

Well as a member of Swords CC we are obliged to chase only if we have a team member in the break.

My own thoughts are that the lower the level the less of "racing"there is. I heard the term bunch engine used where guys just want to chase everything and I kind of understand this as they are getting a work-out. Of course they would be better employed attacking an getting the work-out this way. Someone said to me that only 75% of guys are actually racing any race the rest are just getting around.

From A4 last year I got in a few breaks in combined races and managed to place but was much more difficult in A4 only races. This year am planning on racing and attacking it's much more fun and less stressful than a huge group. We'll have to see how that works out.

RobFowl

shaungil wrote: »

Well as a member of Swords CC we are obliged to chase only if we have a team member in the break.

The old club code......

Seems to apply to club races too btw :rolleyes:

Raam

RobFowl wrote: »

The old club code......

Seems to apply to club races too btw :rolleyes:

Well if I can't win then I sure as hell ain't gonna let you.

bcmf

I amn't really getting it . Are people complaining that sprinters just sit there and wait till the finish when they sprint.

Beasty

I've tidied the thread up a bit more following some of the edits already made by posters - it's an excellent topic, but we should focus on the underlying principles and not specific individuals

Thanks

Beasty

Morty78

I think alot of the A4 and A3's, don't won't to be in a break because it too hard and can't suffer enough, or just dont have the legs, this then leads to everyone chasing down everthing and poping up for the sprint at the end and trying ther luck. I raced Navan and at the end people fought there way up for the finish and then just stopped 400m before the line!!! and when I went up the road most other riders in the break didn't or couldn't work.

kennyb3

bcmf wrote: »

I amn't really getting it . Are people complaining that sprinters just sit there and wait till the finish when they sprint.

No think its more about lads not making breaks, chasing down breaks and so on, on behalf of the group when they ve no sprint themselves. Bit mad unless they are working for a teammate who can sprint or they can sprint themselves

spokeydokey

It's the fellas that brand themselves as sprinters in order to justify not doing a tap that p*** me off! Even though ya never see them getting a result because they're always 'boxed in' or 'it wasn't a pure sprint':pac:

Chips Lovell

Relax. This is not a hate thread.

Caroline_ie

There is nothing wrong in sprinting for the finish. isn't that what cav does? It's a very valid winning strategy... ( Mmm sounding like Charlie Sheen just there )

Lumen

What I find bizarre is the idea that there is "work" to be done at all. The only "work" to be done is bringing the suffering. If you're not attempting to dole out some pain you may as well just mooch along.

I guess everyone has to get to the finish line one way or another without it turning into a trackstanding competition, but it's not some sort of Guiness World Record attempt to see how fast 100 people on bikes can move in 15km circles.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

What I find bizarre is the idea that there is "work" to be done at all. The only "work" to be done is bringing the suffering. If you're not attempting to dole out some pain you may as well just mooch along.

I guess everyone has to get to the finish line one way or another without it turning into a trackstanding competition, but it's not some sort of Guiness World Record attempt to see how fast 100 people on bikes can move in 15km circles.

I think there's two things at play here. One is the notion that if a break is let go away, then they don't have a chance of winning themselves. On a very basic level it is correct, but tactically naive. You either get into the break yourself or bridge across. Pulling the entire bunch up to the break is probably the worst approach, unless you're working for someone else.

The second is that people seem to think its 'wrong' to go slow in a race.

morana

you have to play to your strengths and if you are fast in the final 100m then that is the tactic I would use, sit in, conserve energy and then gallop. Sure I done this on many occasions! But the point is when there is a few guys there who are much quicker than anybody else then whats the point in dragging the group along or not trying to get up the road away from them?


its not a slagging off sprinters who can climb and TT thread far from it its a get up the road and put the pressure on the rest of the group thread!!!

Esroh

Its it not that most guys start in club Leagues where the name of the game for the
1st group stay away for as long as possible= we will work together
All other groups we have to close the handicap= we will work together until we do and then sort ourselves out.

You put the same lads into A4 race.do not take %s to seriously
10 % wannt to go in a break and will attempt to.
40% just close the gaps as thats what they know
40% are hanging in
10% are sprinters and sit in letting the 40% above keep things together.

And how many of you can say that you have a club plan when going into an A4/ A3 race where you actually decide who is going to go in breaks and who is the team sprinter.
I can probably say I have not seen much reference in Race Reports to how any Boardsie worked for his Clubmate.
I know within my own club I is 99% more important than Team:D

Lumen

Esroh wrote: »

I can probably say I have not seen much reference in Race Reports to how any Boardsie worked for his Clubmate.

The first rule...

morana

Esroh wrote: »

Its it not that most guys start in club Leagues where the name of the game for the
1st group stay away for as long as possible= we will work together
All other groups we have to close the handicap= we will work together until we do and then sort ourselves out.

You put the same lads into A4 race.do not take %s to seriously
10 % wannt to go in a break and will attempt to.
40% just close the gaps as thats what they know
40% are hanging in
10% are sprinters and sit in letting the 40% above keep things together.

And how many of you can say that you have a club plan when going into an A4/ A3 race where you actually decide who is going to go in breaks and who is the team sprinter.
I can probably say I have not seen much reference in Race Reports to how any Boardsie worked for his Clubmate.
I know within my own club I is 99% more important than Team:D

Well the ravens do for one! that is when we can get enough to the races. We would always have a plan of what we have to do to maximize our chances of a result.

its easier in a smaller group whereas if you are with a big club there is so many in the group its very hard to organise but still its possible to do!

shaungil

We've tried to put a plan for every race depending on numbers. Logic above makes sense for A4 but surely A3 are a bit more sazzy.

7 digs on Saturday nothing stuck. I tried I tried.

Raam

Whatever about the propensity of A3 to chase a break like a randy teenage boy chases skirt, the fact that A1/A2 were chasing A3 may have lent to the lack of breakaway success on Saturday.

The Crunch

shaungil wrote: »

We've tried to put a plan for every race depending on numbers. Logic above makes sense for A4 but surely A3 are a bit more sazzy.

7 digs on Saturday nothing stuck. I tried I tried.

Fair play Shaun, you deserved a prize. You were never off the front.

Raam

http://www.irishcycling.com/publish/news/art_5434.shtml

Dear irishcycling.com

I read with great interest the words of wisdom from Paddy Doran in his recent article "IMPROVE YOUR WINNING TACTICS".

Paddy is one of our best coaches, and I was fortunate to have spent a season working with him as a junior on the national squad in the late 80s. Off the foundations and mentoring I received from Paddy I also enjoyed a successful few years as a senior rider. As a rider, I was never naturally gifted, but always rode aggressively with a "make the break or blow up trying" sort of attitude. Which is what prompted me to write in after reading Paddy's article.

Now, as I approach my Vet years, after a few lean years on the bike (and a few not-so-lean years on the waist) I'm back racing at A3 level. While it is great to be back competing and enjoying levels of fitness I haven't had for a few years, I must admit to getting frustrated at the style of racing in the A3 bunch. At times, it can be very negative, with lots of lads not really willing to give a real dig when they try to go clear.

As Paddy says, its more a jump than a break. Then there are lads in the bunch who are very happy to jump onto every rider who jumps over the top. It all makes for quite frustrating racing, and the pace, in my experience, has ended up quite pedestrian. I'm not fit enough yet to ride the A1/A2 races in anything but the sub-40 mile races or handicaps (which I plan on doing to raise my own levels of speed) but I certainly don't see any reason why the A3 and A4 races couldn't be ridden with the same gusto.

Which comes to the main point of my note: how could we build in more aggressive racing into the A3 and A4 races? Apart from the lads really having it in the gut to want to ride hard, one solution could be for promoting clubs to offer a "Most Aggressive Rider" prize at each race. This would go to the person who shows the most persistent efforts off the front.

Personally I would rather see one less prize given out from the standard first 6 or 8,and that prize money being allocated to this award. It would certainly offer an incentive for lads to give a proper dig when they are trying to get away, and to keep trying until the elastic breaks. It would also stretch the race out a lot more, making it easier to pick out numbers on the line in all these bunch sprints we are seeing, and should also reduce the number of crashes.

Food for thought for the promoting clubs. In the meantime, to the lads in the A3 and A4 races, come on, lets be a bit more like Thomas Voeckler or Phillipe Gilbert and less like Mark Cavendish.

Regards

Dave Smyth
Naas Cycling Club

xz

spokeydokey wrote: »

It's the fellas that brand themselves as sprinters in order to justify not doing a tap that p*** me off! Even though ya never see them getting a result because they're always 'boxed in' or 'it wasn't a pure sprint':pac:

The guy that won the A3 race in Navan is an out and out sprinter, he didn't get boxed in, he's also the National Track sprint Champ;)

BTH

Any boardsies doing thrusday in Dunboyne a4 fancy trying to get away early??

A pre-planned group would probably see more success.

Raam

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Any boardsies doing thrusday in Dunboyne a4 fancy trying to get away early??

A pre-planned group would probably see more success.

Well now the whole internet knows.

Idleater

Raam wrote: »

Well now the whole internet knows.

I'm glad I checked back in this thread. This is going to be worse than the cricket matchfixing scandal.

fry wrote:

Man, I thought Ultimate Robot Fighting was real, like pro wrestling, but it turns out it's fixed, like boxing.

Diarmuid

Raam wrote: »

http://www.irishcycling.com/publish/news/art_5434.shtml

Surely one solution is to run the races on slightly harder courses? A few races in Blessington would sort out a lot of guys sitting on

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

Surely one solution is to run the races on slightly harder courses? A few races in Blessington would sort out a lot of guys sitting on

Climber in hilly course suggestion shocker.

poochiem

Lumen wrote: »

Climber in hilly course suggestion shocker.

I wonder do the horses in cheltenham have a similar thread going on horseyboards.ie?

not sane

Regarding the letter on Irish Cycling, am I the only one who now feels that a select few are moaning about nothing. I did agree with morana to a certain extent and I understand it can be frustrating particularly knowing his style of racing. My opinion is that this will sort itself out as the season continues as lads get fitter (myself) and they believe in there own capabilities. If lads want to race a certain way let them i've been around long enough to even see team mates chasing there own so if someone wants to chase all day so be it. Its up to the moaners to try and get away particularly the ones who in there experience, the races have ended up quite pedestrian, this certainly wasn't my impressions from navan and clonard. So lads I remember being a 3rd cat in the early 90's and the racing went through a phase like this, in summary just race your bike the way you want to and not the way someone else wants you to if that makes sense.

Regards

Paul Byrne

morana

ah come on Paul!

moaning....moi....never...

Great to see you back!

ryan_sherlock

xz wrote: »

The guy that won the A3 race in Navan is an out and out sprinter, he didn't get boxed in, he's also the National Track sprint Champ;)

A national champ as in A3?!? Anyone else see a problem here?

ryan_sherlock

What I noticed last year was that a break of strong riders would get away towards the start - grand.

Later in the race, people may try to bridge, then get chased down, chased down and chased down... The people doing the chasing seemed to have no will to actually do a bit of work (other than chasing) that would actually catch the early break - that, I didn't get. Then at the end, they get blown out the back because they are gased from chasing all day.

Kinda negative racing, but hey, if that's the style, that's the style - figure out down to break it.

xz

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

A national champ as in A3?!? Anyone else see a problem here?

Well theres a big difference with being a national champ over 200 metres and doing an 80 km road race, but in this case it's quite remarkable as he only started cycling within the last 2 years. No he's not an A3 National Champ, he's a TRACK sprint champ

niceonetom

xz wrote: »

Well theres a big difference with being a national champ over 200 metres and doing an 80 km road race, but in this case it's quite remarkable as he only started cycling within the last 2 years. No he's not an A3 National Champ, he's a TRACK sprint champ

That argument might just barely hold water if he hadn't WON THE BLOODY RACE. The only decent thing for him to do is upgrade himself. A3 is not for national champions. We have enough ex-Rás ringers in there as it is.

xz

niceonetom wrote: »

That argument might just barely hold water if he hadn't WON THE BLOODY RACE. The only decent thing for him to do is upgrade himself. A3 is not for national champions. We have enough ex-Rás ringers in there as it is.

He was upgraded pretty sharpish from A4 to A3 last season, I think he wants to go up through the ranks on merit, not by what he thinks his ability is,and as he concentrates mainly on the Track, I think he has every right to remain as he is for the road. You'll all just have to train harder, he only started cycling, as I said, about 2 years ago, and look what he has accomplished, and it's all down to hard work, whilst holding down a full time job and rearing a family. Instead of bemoaning him, try and do as he did and work hard at it.
I understand your point about ringers, but we are talking about someone who has very little experience but has just worked hard at it, I really think he should not be begrudged for that.

niceonetom

It's hardly "begrudgery" to expect people to compete at a level commensurate with their ability.

xz

niceonetom wrote: »

It's hardly "begrudgery" to expect people to compete at a level commensurate with their ability.

Well seeing as he was also placed third in Newbridge, I think he will be getting upgraded pretty soon, so no worries

xz

niceonetom wrote: »

It's hardly "begrudgery" to expect people to compete at a level commensurate with their ability.

You've missed the point, though, he is a relative novice who has worked hard to acheive his ability.
Here I am, defending the honour of a clubmate, and I don't even race, myself.

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

It's hardly "begrudgery" to expect people to compete at a level commensurate with their ability.

Nobody who wins a race is competing at a level commensurate with their ability. If they were, they wouldn't win it.

Unfortunately someone has to win the race.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Nobody who wins a race is competing at a level commensurate with their ability. If they were, they wouldn't win it.

Eh, what are you on about?

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

Eh, what are you on about?

The consequence of winning is being upgraded. You don't suddenly become a better cyclist when you get upgraded. Therefore, if you manage to "compete" OK in the level you are upgraded to (which is usually the case), you must therefore have been previously competing in a level below your capabilities.

Point is, there is no practical way to prove what level is "commensurate" other than implementing a system of upgrades based on results, which is what we have. IIRC there is even a rule about ex-internationals sandbagging in the lower cats.

Riders genuinely moving up through the cats should not be denied a window of glory, but that window should be brief.

shaungil

2 wins and a third palce have you upgraded now (15 pts?) so fiar play to anyone winning a race. no one knows what level they are until they race typically and its nice to get some glory. As Lumen has said before you are always going to be upgraded to you level of competence and then you'll stop winning unless you're Contador et al.

For someone new to the sport they're perfectly entitled to move up through the grades. anyway are we not going off topis somewhat and supposed to be discussing whether people are sheep chasing breaks and not focussing on a bit of racing?

Raam

Thank you for clarifying. So your statement is purely referring to people who are in all but the highest cat?

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

Thank you for clarifying. So your statement is purely referring to people who are in all but the highest cat?

There are only two categories of bicycle racing:

Level 1. Winners are accused of sandbagging.
Level 2. Winners are accused of doping.

The Crunch

Jason finished 2010 on 12 points which, by my reckoning, means he carried six into this year. With his win in Navan and third place on the Curragh, I reckon he got upgraded last Sunday. And good luck to him. He's a novice at road racing but a talented and hard trying one.
I was on his wheel close to the end of an A4 race in Stamullen last year. We both laboured up the last hill but where I breathed a sigh of relief on reaching the top, he powered through the group and led going down the last descent. He then led out the gallop for about 500 metres and hung on to win a hilly race against a load of skinny climbers.
He did something similar last weekend. I was feeling the pinch on the final drag and I suspect he might have been, too, because he had slipped down the bunch a bit but he battled back to the front and showed his power where it counted. The arms in the air may have to celebrate his upgrade!

shaungil

So after a month of racing since this was published what does everyone think regarding the racing in A3 and A4's.

There's been a few breaks and a few sprints from what I've seen.