Ruairi Quinn, Education agus an Ghaeilge.

deise go deo

Ruairi Quinn of Labor is the new Minister for Education.


I think everyone agrees that Irish in the education system needs to be changed, Just maintaining the status quo is not a sustainable option.

Labor's position is that Irish should be kept as a Core subject for the LC. But what is Ruairi's position on this? Has he ever put forward an opinion on this issue?

What reforms do you expect there to be made to how Irish is taught over the comming months and years, and what reforms do you think should be made?

I have E-mailed Him on this question, When (if) he responds I will let you know what his position is.

Einhard

Can he speak the cupla focall? Someone else can add the fadas!!

Killer Pigeon

I wonder how much state resources go to waste because every state document has to be translated into a language that is only spoken daily by 30,000 people. Of those 30,000 people, every single one of them has a sufficient knowledge of English to the extent that they don't actually need the Irish versions of state documents in order to understand what's trying to be communicated.

In relation to Irish as a subject for the LC, why is it that a language that is only spoken by 30,000 people a compulsory subject, yet languages such as French, German or Spanish, that are spoken by millions of people and could be far more beneficial in the long run for students, not compulsory subjects. If there is sufficient evident, which there invariably is, that a majority of students will never use the Irish language after the LC then it should be made an optional subject. Instead of wasting students' time with such an archaic language it would prove far more useful if students had the opinion to take up a subject that suits their abilities or a second European language, etc.. that will prove far more useful in the future.

If a student has genuine interest in learning the Irish language then of course he/she should be free and not denied the right to learn that language and sit it as an optional subject for the LC.

Simple logic really. Don't let others suffer so that you can spearhead your own idealism; an idealism that is clouded by some vague form of "national pride".

I say this is as fluent Irish speaker.

I hope that Rory Quinn has the same thoughts on the matter as I do.

Lockstep

In the Fine Gael/Labour agreed program for government, it was decided to reform the way Irish was taught; the main one I remember being that 50% of the total marks will go on oral Irish.

Einhard

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I wonder how much state resources go to waste because every state document has to be translated into a language that is only spoken daily by 30,000 people. Of those 30,000 people, every single one of them has a sufficient knowledge of English to the extent that they don't actually need the Irish versions of state documents in order to understand what's trying to be communicated.

In relation to Irish as a subject for the LC, why is it that a language that is only spoken by 30,000 people a compulsory subject, yet a languages such as French, German or Spanish which are spoken by millions of people, and that could be far more beneficial in the long run for a student, not compulsory. If there is sufficient evident, which there invariably is, that a majority of students will never use the Irish language after the LC then it should be made non-compulsory. Instead of wasting students' time with such an archaic language it would prove far more useful if student had the opinion to take up a subject that suits their abilities or a second European language, etc.. which will prove far more useful in the future.

If a student had genuine interest in learning the Irish language then of course they should be free to learn the language and sit it as an optional subject for the LC.

Simple logic really - not pointless "national pride", that gets you nowhere and in honesty is an utter waste of resources. Don't let others suffer so that you can spearhead your own pathetic idealism.

I say this is a fluent Irish speaker.

I hope that Rory Quinn has the same thoughts on the matter as I do.

What's Irish for "can of worms"?!:D

mikemac

More emphasis on oral/aural and less on poetry might be a start

And this will probably be done

Killer Pigeon

Einhard wrote: »

What's Irish for "can of worms"?!:D

Canna péiste.

*Fingers crossed that I have all my gramadach right*

deise go deo

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I wonder how much state resources go to waste because every state document has to be translated into a language that is only spoken daily by 30,000 people.

Where have you gotten your Information from? As far as I can tell it is wrong on both counts, There are around 70,000 daily speakers of Irish and not every government document has to be translated into Irish.

Of those 30,000 people, every single one of them has a sufficient knowledge of English to the extent that they don't actually need the Irish versions of state documents in order to understand what's trying to be communicated.

What is the justification for forcing someone to use English? Surely Irish people should have access to a service in their native Language? Weather that native language be Irish or English?

In relation to Irish as a subject for the LC, why is it that a language that is only spoken by 30,000 people a compulsory subject, yet languages such as French, German or Spanish, which are spoken by millions of people and could be far more beneficial in the long run for students, not compulsory subjects.

70,000 Daily speakers, quite a bit more are able to speak Irish but don't have the opportunity to.

None of those languages are spoken by millions of people in this country. How would those languages be far more beneficial in the long run? Under what criteria are they more Beneficial?

If there is sufficient evident, which there invariably is, that a majority of students will never use the Irish language after the LC then it should be made an optional subject. Instead of wasting students' time with such an archaic language it would prove far more useful if students had the opinion to take up a subject that suits their abilities or a second European language, etc.. which will prove far more useful in the future.

From the evidence that I have seen, learning a second language is always beneficial, language learning is very important in terms of a child's cognitive development, Learning Irish cannot be a waste of time on that basis alone.

What is it exactly that make Irish 'Archaic'? What is it specifically that makes it 'Archaic'? It is a living language, and is used in all forms of modern media. So what is it that makes it archaic?

If a student had genuine interest in learning the Irish language then of course they should be free to learn the language and sit it as an optional subject for the LC.

Simple logic really - not pointless "national pride", that gets you nowhere and in honesty is an utter waste of resources. Don't let others suffer so that you can spearhead your own pathetic idealism.

I say this is a fluent Irish speaker.

I hope that Rory Quinn has the same thoughts on the matter as I do.

This thread is not about idealism or 'national pride' I don't see any evidence of anyone suffering on account of the Irish language, your waffle on this count seams wholly out of place in my opinion.

This thread is about Irish in the education system, the reforms you expect to be made and the reforms that you think should be made, please don't use it as a platform for an uninformed rant against the language.

Sand

Deise, perhaps you might explain by what measurement or standard you consider investment in Irish as a language to be worthwhile. I doubt you will be convinced by people measuring Irish language investment by standards you consider unimportant.

Killer Pigeon

deise go deo wrote: »

Where have you gotten your Information from? As far as I can tell it is wrong on both counts, There are around 70,000 daily speakers of Irish and not every government document has to be translated into Irish.

What is the justification for forcing someone to use English? Surely Irish people should have access to a service in their native Language? Weather that native language be Irish or English?

You're not forcing someone to use the English version, you're simply adhering to logistics. A simple argument would be, why should I be forced to use public transport in a city if I have a car; simple, it makes more sense, it cuts time, it would be better for everyone and it would cost less.

By the constitution every piece of government legislation must provided in both national languages; English and Irish. Yet the state has already gone beyond it's constitutional bounds in this regard; every state document, every state website and state pamphlet I've come across were in both English and Irish. You need professional translators to translate all this literature from English to Irish. This costs money!

deise go deo wrote: »

70,000 Daily speakers, quite a bit more are able to speak Irish but don't have the opportunity to.

None of those languages are spoken by millions of people in this country. How would those languages be far more beneficial in the long run? Under what criteria are they more Beneficial?

For communication skills... Look at the Danes, they have a very good knowledge of other European languages and it has been nothing but beneficial for them. They can communicate with other Europeans with ease. If we want to do business, work, etc.. abroad then learning multiple popular European or even Asian languages would be a major bonus.

I apologise for my figure on the amount of people who speak Irish daily but 70,000 is still quite a low number of people compared to 4 million people who speak English daily here. Those 70,000 you mention still have a very good understanding of the English language. To deny this would be farcical.

deise go deo wrote: »

From the evidence that I have seen, learning a second language is always beneficial, language learning is very important in terms of a child's cognitive development, Learning Irish cannot be a waste of time on that basis alone.

What is it exactly that make Irish 'Archaic'? What is it specifically that makes it 'Archaic'? It is a living language, and is used in all forms of modern media. So what is it that makes it archaic?

I'm not going to deny that learning a second or third language is beneficial but at least let the student have the opportunity to pick what languages they want to learn.

Irish is indeed an archaic language. Latin would be spoken more around the globe in Latin masses and in the Vatican combined.

deise go deo wrote: »

This thread is not about idealism or 'national pride' I don't see any evidence of anyone suffering on account of the Irish language, your waffle on this count seams wholly out of place in my opinion.

This thread is about Irish in the education system, the reforms you expect to be made and the reforms that you think should be made, please don't use it as a platform for an uninformed rant against the language.

Yes, I apologies for that, but you responded with an rant of equal veracity.

Cakes.

In relation to the OP's original question, I believe the way Irish is taught has to be drastically reformed.

I believe there should be a mandatory oral exam for the Junior Cert and learning poetry ans stories should be done away with completely.

I also believe that the way Irish is taught in primary schools should be changed too. Instead of giving pupils tests on how to spell 6 or 5 or whatever amount of words per week should be stopped.

I believe there should be more of an emphasis on speaking Irish in schools.

I believe more Gaelscoils should be established in towns outside the Gaeltacht. More Irish speaking secondary schools should also be established.

I believe all primary schools should teach two subjects through Irish. This should be the same subject in every school so students know where they are when they join up in secondary schools. This other subjects should also be taught through Irish in Secondary Schools.

All schools who mainly use English should have an Irish stream where students who choose to can do the Junior and Leaving cert exams in Irish.

I also believe that more areas should use Irish as it's main language. These ''new Gaeltachts'' should be set up in large towns and people should be encouraged to use the language.

Irish is our native language. Many men and women died so that we could have the right to learn and speak it.

deise go deo

feelingstressed wrote: »

More emphasis on oral/aural and less on poetry might be a start

And this will probably be done

From my own point of view, it is very welcome that the whole making Irish optional plan has been shelved for the time being.

Weather or not you believe that Irish should be made optional, reform of the curriculum must happen first.


I think that there are several reforms that should happen.

-How Primary School teachers are taught should be reformed, the standard of Irish that primary school teachers have can vary widely, and unfortunately it is all too easy for someone with a poor standard of Irish to end up in a classroom trying to teach it. Hardly surprising then when they are successful.

The best proposal to address this I have heard is that Primary school teachers should be taught through Irish for part of their course. This would mean that their standard of Irish would be improved while not taking time away from other aspects of their course.

-The Second Level course should be restructured away from heavy literature and be based around the spoken word. I would suggest that it should be split into two subjects. Irish Language being based on Irish as a Living spoken Language that everyone would do, and Irish Literature would be a second optional subject that would teach Literature, prose, essay writing etc for people who want to continue with Irish as part of their collage course and their careers.

-Gaelscoileanna/Gaelchoileasteanna should be fully supported.

As part of the census, people should be able to indicate if they would like to send their kids to an all Irish school, The info collected from this should then be used to plan the provision of All Irish education in the future based on demand. Where there are enough people to justify an All Irish school, one should be provided.

deise go deo

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

You're not forcing someone to use the English version, you're simply adhering to logistics. A simple argument would be, why should I be forced to use public transport in a city if I have a car; simple, it makes more sense, it cuts time, it would be better for everyone and it would cost less.

If someone wants to use Irish as the language they live their lives through, and a service is provided through English only then they are forced to use English, their choice is not respected.
(Though this really is off topic)

By the constitution every piece of government legislation must provided in both national languages; English and Irish. Yet the state has already gone beyond it's constitutional bounds in this regard; every state document, every state website and state pamphlet I've come across were in both English and Irish. You need professional translators to translate all this literature from English to Irish. This costs money!

The Official Languages act clearly sets out what must be provided in Both Languages, It is not every state document.

For communication skills... Look at the Danes, they have a very good knowledge of other European languages and it has been nothing but beneficial for them. They can communicate with other Europeans with ease. If we want to do business, work, etc.. abroad then learning multiple popular European or even Asian languages would be a major bonus.

I don't disagree, The benefits of second language learning go well beyond that however. I would argue that the European best practice of Mother tongue +2 system should be implemented here(with Irish being one of the +2)

I apologise for my figure on the amount of people who speak Irish daily but 70,000 is still quite a low number of people compared to 4 million people who speak English daily here. Those 70,000 you mention still have a very good understanding of the English language. To deny this would be farcical.

I have never denyed that, But there are two other things you need to realise, Those 70,000 are the ammount of people who do use Irish as their daily language of communication, not the amount who can. The amount who can is much higher, they don't mostly because they live in English speaking communities so using Irish as their daily language is not an option, though in more recent years, with the growth of the Gaelscoil movement, the amount of families using Irish as the language of the home outside the Gaeltacht has grown.

It is wrong to force someone who chooses to use Irish to use English. People have a right to choose what language they want to live their lives through. To provide services through one of the official languages only would be to deny people the right to choose which language they want to use.

I'm not going to deny that learning a second or third language is beneficial but at least let the student have the opportunity to pick what languages they want to learn.

A Choice of two is not much better than a choice of one, especially when the two languages they can 'choose' from are closely related anyway. I have seen nothing to suggest that choice is in any way necessary or beneficial to success when learning any subject, languages included.(which is a good thing because if it was then JC students would be Fu**ed)

Irish is indeed an archaic language. Latin would be spoken more around the globe in Latin masses and in the Vatican combined.

By what measure? For what reason?

What is it that Makes Irish 'Archaic' as opposed to Portuguese for instance?

Godge

For an insight into Ruairi Quinn's views on education, remember he has been a member of the Oireachtas committee on education for the last few years and there are many debates in which he has raised this topic.

See this link for one such debate

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/EDJ/2011/01/13/00004.asp


Of particular interest is this comment:

"Deputy Ruairí Quinn: I wish to ask a specific question. It has been suggested elsewhere that 30% of time in the primary school teaching day or period is devoted to a combination of teaching Irish and faith formation. Is there much control from Marlborough Street in how that time can be reallocated or do the witnesses have a comment?"

From the tone of the rest of the debate, it appears that he is deeply concerned about the amount of time spent on Irish and religion in particular. Not too soon for someone to get exercised about this.

Of all the possible Labour ministers, I would suggest he is closest to the FG position on the abolition of compulsory Irish.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

I don't disagree, The benefits of second language learning go well beyond that however. I would argue that the European best practice of Mother tongue +2 system should be implemented here(with Irish being one of the +2)

Why not stick with Mother Tongue (Irish or English) plus two continental European languages. You can let children choose between Irish or English depending on which is their mother tongue.

Cakes.

I would prefer to learn Irish than English even though I speak English at home.

If Irish is made optional English should also be made optional.

hotmail.com

Cakesofrice wrote: »

I would prefer to learn Irish than English even though I speak English at home.

If Irish is made optional English should also be made optional.

Irish is the only compulsory subject for the leaving cert. English is optional.

Cakes.

No it's not. Maths, English and Irish are compulsory.

hotmail.com

Cakesofrice wrote: »

No it's not. Maths, English and Irish are compulsory.

Nope you're wrong sadly. Irish is legally the only compulsory subject that schools have to provide to the leaving. However, as you know, the vast majority of schools also provide maths and English to the leaving in a compulsory fashion.

I'll get the data to prove it if you don't believe me!

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

Why not stick with Mother Tongue (Irish or English) plus two continental European languages. You can let children choose between Irish or English depending on which is their mother tongue.

Maybe I am misreading this, but it would seem to suggest that only Native Irish speakers should have the option of learning Irish. I think (If I am correct in my interpretation of your post) that that is a ridiculous suggestion.

deise go deo

hotmail.com wrote: »

Nope you're wrong sadly. Irish is legally the only compulsory subject that schools have to provide to the leaving. However, as you know, the vast majority of schools also provide maths and English to the leaving in a compulsory fashion.

I'll get the data to prove it if you don't believe me!

No need, Irish is compulsory by a roundabout method. For the school to get a capitation the student must learn Irish (unless exempt) so the schools make Irish compulsory.

No student has the choice of not doing English or Maths so to call them optional rings false in my opinion as there is no option other than to do them.

All three, Irish, English and Maths are Core leaving Cert Subjects.

hotmail.com

deise go deo wrote: »

No need, Irish is compulsory by a roundabout method. For the school to get a capitation the student must learn Irish (unless exempt) so the schools make Irish compulsory.

No student has the choice of not doing English or Maths so to call them optional rings false in my opinion as there is no option other than to do them.

All three, Irish, English and Maths are Core leaving Cert Subjects.

Core does not mean compulsory. I understand what you're saying, but technically English and maths aren't compulsory, obviously the reality is different.


I actually think that no subject should be compulsory after the junior, maths and English included.

RandomName2

Lockstep wrote: »

In the Fine Gael/Labour agreed program for government, it was decided to reform the way Irish was taught; the main one I remember being that 50% of the total marks will go on oral Irish.

Ah... but in which dialect?

femur61

deise go deo wrote: »

Where have you gotten your Information from? As far as I can tell it is wrong on both counts, There are around 70,000 daily speakers of Irish and not every government document has to be translated into Irish.



From the evidence that I have seen, learning a second language is always beneficial, language learning is very important in terms of a child's cognitive development, Learning Irish cannot be a waste of time on that basis alone.



This thread is about Irish in the education system, the reforms you expect to be made and the reforms that you think should be made, please don't use it as a platform for an uninformed rant against the language.

70,000 people in population of 4 million doesn't justify spending millions on translating documents. We have families, parishes decimated at the moment due to lack of jobs. Couldn't the money wasted teaching Irish be spent on creating jobs to keep these people here. We were told by ourselves we had wonderful education system now an international report says we are 17th in the world in regards to literacy down from 5th in 2001. I have two children dyslexic, and have to fund extra classes for them myself, will that issue be addressed? I know in the UK dyslexic children are not treated like pariahs like they still are here.

SB-08

Quinn is the perfect choice for Education. He has a huge grasp of the best way to spend the money allocated to it from the budget (a huge amount of which isn't being spent - some 100m) especially in relation to the prefab debacle. And as far as the Catholic Church goes and all the land that they are meant to hand over to the state and the overall situation in relation to the clerical abuse there is no-one better to deal with that. His speech in the Dail on the subject was one of the VERY rare occasions when an Irish politician articulates themselves in such a powerful and eloquent manner. He will put up with no crap on that front whereas a FG Education Minister or even someoen less forceful like Rabbitte would not be as suited.

Its great to see someone of Quinn's caliber in Education with his no nonsense approach. When was the last time we had a really good Education minister? We've had to endure Hannifan and Coughlan's incompetence - it's about bloody time we see some quality in this post.

He's on PK now btw.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sleepy

deise go deo wrote: »

This thread is not about idealism or 'national pride' I don't see any evidence of anyone suffering on account of the Irish language

My education suffered as a result of Irish being mandatory. As someone with no interest, or aptitude for it, I was denied the opportunity to do a full 7 subjects for Leaving Certificate and had to instead rely on 6 subjects to gain my college matriculation points while wasting time ensuring I wouldn't fail pass Irish.

Had I been able to drop Irish and study German (as I wished to do) I'd have had an extra subject at higher level that I could have selected my points from and in my professional life, I'd have another language at my disposal.

Thanks for trying to condemn my daughters education to the same fate through pushing for such an out-dated display of nationalism to continue. I'm sure she'll thank you for it in twenty years or so when her grasp of the Modh Coinníollach gets her a job with Microsoft :rolleyes:

LordSutch

Cakesofrice wrote: »

Irish is our native language. Many men and women died so that we could have the right to learn and speak it.

That^ is such a lie myth, I'll say no more, except 'Dydd Gwŷl Dewi Sant hapus'.

Anyway I have already posted an explanation on the Fine Gael policy on the Irish forum, (sorry for posting it again deise go deo), and I can only presume that Ruairi Quinn will have to tow the line (maybe even a watered down version of End's plans)?

Whatever about Ruairi Quinn, I know for a fact that our new Taoiseach loves the Irish language, and as many of you well know "he used to teach it", he passionately wants Irish to thrive in the future, but he also recognises the futility of the failed teaching methods over the last last eighty years. Those of you who are against Fine Gael's plans, please take a step back for just one moment & think about how somebody from Germany, France, Spain, Italy, or Poland might perceive the last eighty years of compulsion! So you guys do irish all your school life, and many of you even pass leaving cert irish, but very few of you can speak it! (scratches head)

Its FAILED, and its FAILED miserably they would say (as Sharon Ní Bheoláin recently said), and it is also fair to say that every single compulsive initiative has failed since compulsion was introduced, and this is where the Fine Gael argument cuts in. > Take the compulsion out of the leaving Cert, while putting in place a structure that will encourage students to want to learn the language, take out the compulsion (which has obviously FAILED) and replace it with a more friendly, progressive, less forceful attitude that will encourage the Irish language to be Loved (& not Loathed).

The Fine Gael proposals are designed to help students aspire to speak the language, to embrace it, to love it (without being threatened with a metaphorical stick). Enda Kenny loves the Irish Language, he has a vision, & he wants to try something that has not been tried before, and I say give Fine Gael a shot at their Irish language revival plans . . .

Otherwise, its another twenty year plan, resulting in the same old, same old cupla focal, resulting in 5% fluency on a country wide basis, with the same old arguments that we have had since mandatory Irish was (wrongly) introduced after the foundation of the State.

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Why would he need to spend time dealing with Gaelgoirs? His party agrees with the Irish language movement on the best way forward for the language. You may see anything to do with Irish as a waste of time, but that is your own prejudice.

We have 440,000 people unemployed, many of whom are desperately in need of education and upskilling. Our universities are undergoing a funding crisis, unable to charge tuition fees on the one hand, and seeing government funding drying up on the other. We have a major grade inflation crisis that has devalued the worth of Irish degrees in the eyes of international employers. We are ranked a dismal 26th out of 34 OECD countries for the performance of 15-year-olds in maths.

In short, Mr Quinn has far bigger issues to be worrying about than this.

I think its laughable that you think that one issues should be ignored because you dont likeit, I suppose Meningitis should be ignored by the Health service because Cancer is 'a far bigger issue'
There are many issues in the Education system that need to be dealt with, this thread is on one of them.

Bottle_of_Smoke

LordSutch wrote: »

That^ is such a lie myth, I'll say no more, except 'Dydd Gwŷl Dewi Sant hapus'.

Anyway I have already posted an explanation on the Fine Gael policy on the Irish forum, so here it is again (sorry in advance deise go deo)

Whatever about Ruairi Quinn, I know for a fact that Enda Kenny loves the Irish language, and as many of you well know "he used to teach it", he passionately wants Irish to thrive in the future, but he also recognises the futility of the failed teaching methods over the last last eighty years. Those of you who are against Fine Gael's plans, please take a step back for just one moment & think about how somebody from Germany, France, Spain, Italy, or Poland might perceive the last eighty years of compulsion!
So you guys do irish all your school life, and many of you even pass leaving cert irish, but very few of you can speak it! (scratches head)

Its FAILED, and its FAILED miserably they would say (as Sharon Ní Bheoláin recently said), and it is also fair to say that every single compulsive initiative has failed since compulsion was introduced, and this is where the Fine Gael argument cuts in. > Take the compulsion out of the leaving Cert, while putting in place a structure that will encourage students to want to learn the language, take out the compulsion (which has obviously FAILED) and replace it with a more friendly, progressive, less forceful attitude that will encourage the Irish language to be Loved (& not Loathed).

The Fine Gael proposals are designed to help students aspire to speak the language, to embrace it, to love it (without being threatened with a metaphorical stick). Enda Kenny loves the Irish Language, he has a vision, & he wants to try something that has not been tried before, and I say give Fine Gael a shot at their Irish language revival plans . . .

Otherwise, its another twenty year plan, resulting in the same old, same old cupla focal, resulting in 5% fluency on a country wide basis, with the same old arguments that we have had since mandatory Irish was (wrongly) introduced after the foundation of the State.

What you have to realise is most people who want it kept compulsory feel guilty because they themselves cannot speak Irish.

You would think they would just learn Irish, but the reality is they're too lazy for that, so they take the easy option and just demand someone else do it.

Insisting the kids do it is their way of feeling like they're proper patriotic gaels.

Another element is the anti-Englishness prevalent in this country, they don't care so much that Irish is spoken, it is just that they feel if Irish is optional it is an attack on the status of Irish as the first language.

Its utterly pathetic and embarrassing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

alan85

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I wonder how much state resources go to waste because every state document has to be translated into a language that is only spoken daily by 30,000 people. Of those 30,000 people, every single one of them has a sufficient knowledge of English to the extent that they don't actually need the Irish versions of state documents in order to understand what's trying to be communicated.

In relation to Irish as a subject for the LC, why is it that a language that is only spoken by 30,000 people a compulsory subject, yet languages such as French, German or Spanish, that are spoken by millions of people and could be far more beneficial in the long run for students, not compulsory subjects. If there is sufficient evident, which there invariably is, that a majority of students will never use the Irish language after the LC then it should be made an optional subject. Instead of wasting students' time with such an archaic language it would prove far more useful if students had the opinion to take up a subject that suits their abilities or a second European language, etc.. that will prove far more useful in the future.

If a student has genuine interest in learning the Irish language then of course he/she should be free and not denied the right to learn that language and sit it as an optional subject for the LC.

Simple logic really. Don't let others suffer so that you can spearhead your own idealism; an idealism that is clouded by some vague form of "national pride".

I say this is a fluent Irish speaker.

I hope that Rory Quinn has the same thoughts on the matter as I do.

Why don't you ask the Welsh or indeed the Scots and any other nation that have a marginal language? http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml This article shows benefits(including higher IQ) outweigh disadvantages. It isn't all about money. Your mindset is the exact type of rot that has this country in it's perilous position. A country is not a business(although responsible finances are important). When I have children they will be brought up with Irish out of not only pride but also the clear advantage intellectually and educationally it will give them.

I speak as someone that went throught the system and came out not being able to speak Irish. I am pro-reform but would not like to see it made non-compulsory. I think it's a shame there are no free Irish classes in Dublin and major cities where one could go to learn Irish. I'm sure there are many parents out there that would like to be able to help their children with their Irish homework and don't have the resources. I'm sure there must be some correlation between child and parent and how the child performs in certain subjects.

áth mór!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sleepy

alan85 wrote: »

Why don't you ask the Welsh or indeed the Scots and any other nation that have a marginal language? http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml This article shows benefits(including higher IQ) outweigh disadvantages. It isn't all about money. Your mindset is the exact type of rot that has this country in it's perilous position. A country is not a business(although responsible finances are important). When I have children they will be brought up with Irish out of not only pride but also the clear advantage intellectually and educationally it will give them.

I speak as someone that went throught the system and came out not being able to speak Irish. I am pro-reform but would not like to see it made non-compulsory. I think it's a shame there are no free Irish classes in Dublin and major cities where one could go to learn Irish. I'm sure there are many parents out there that would like to be able to help their children with their Irish homework and don't have the resources. I'm sure there must be some correlation between child and parent and how the child performs in certain subjects.

áth mór!

That article is titled "The benefits of bi-lingualism". The educational benefits listed would be true of any two languages and even without the time to research it, I'd be pretty confident in asserting that a bilingual person in posession of two living language is going to reap far greater rewards from those than someone who's second language is a cultural hangover / novelty with little to no commercial application.

This would be particularly true of anyone who's second language is that of a major trading partner or potential trading partner. Spanish, German or Chinese are going to be more beneficial to a job-seeker than Welsh, Irish, Navaho or Klingon.

#15

Hopefully Quinn can get around to sorting out the issue of religious patronage during his time in the education department.

alan85

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Welsh is now widely used in education, with 20% of all pupils in Wales being taught at Welsh-medium schools.[34] All Welsh universities teach some courses in Welsh (most notably Bangor University and Aberystwyth University), but are primarily English language. Under the National Curriculum, schoolchildren in Wales must study Welsh up to the age of 16 and many choose to continue with it in their A levels and college years. All Local Education Authorities in Wales have schools providing bilingual or Welsh-medium education.[35] The remainder study Welsh as a second language in English-medium schools. Specialist teachers of Welsh called Athrawon Bro support the teaching of Welsh in the National Curriculum. Welsh is also taught in adult education classes. The Welsh Assembly Government has recently set up six centres of excellence in the teaching of Welsh for Adults, with centres in North Wales (learncymraeg.org), Mid Wales, South West, Glamorgan, Gwent and Cardiff. The ability to speak Welsh or to have Welsh as a qualification is essential or desirable for certain career choices in Wales, such as teaching or customer service.

20% are through Welsh medium and they support adult learning. Very different system. Although parts of it sound very attractive! I think implementing the support systems for Irish firstly, such as adult classes, would be a necessity for me to support making Irish non-compulsory from J.C. onwards.

Would you support free Irish classes for adults? I have been looking for them and can't find them. Everywhere charges and I don't have the means. I would love to see adult classes being supported...

Bottle_of_Smoke

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What's interesting about the A-levels is they are correctly recognised as preparation for further study and therefore no subject is compulsory.

Our Leaving cert is outdated. Originally intended as being optional, with the Inter/Junior Cert being sufficient for many jobs/trades.

So somewhere along the line ordinary level leaving cert replaced the inter/junior cert's previous role, which in effect makes the leaving cert compulsory.

I'm all for developing writing skills, numeracy and rounded education but this can easily be achieved without making someone do leaving cert english/maths.

Perhaps what's really needed here is to give a stronger status to the junior cert and make the entire leaving cert optional. Can't help but think ours must be a very expensive system for what it produces.

alan85

Sleepy wrote: »

This would be particularly true of anyone who's second language is that of a major trading partner or potential trading partner. Spanish, German or Chinese are going to be more beneficial to a job-seeker than Welsh, Irish, Navaho or Klingon.

Once you have the basic language skills from learning Irish and having learning aids, such as TG4/RG4/Road Signage, around you you are perfectly placed to go on and perform excellently at learning the commercially viable(as you put them) languages. Why would it hinder you? If anything I think it would help. Why has it to be commercially viable for it to be valuable? You could say the same about poetry, Shakespearean plays and many other aspects of the English syllabus. If everything were to come down to commercial viability wouldn't it be such a boring and scary world... This isn't commercially viable... Knock it, scrap it, kill it, etc. etc. It's a poor arguement if you ask me.

@#15 Agreed! Hopefully Ruairí will sort out religious involvement. I understand he's a fan of educate together so fingers crossed.

Bottle_of_Smoke

alan85 wrote: »

20% are through Welsh medium and they support adult learning. Very different system. Although parts of it sound very attractive! I think implementing the support systems for Irish firstly, such as adult classes, would be a necessity for me to support making Irish non-compulsory from J.C. onwards.

Would you support free Irish classes for adults? I have been looking for them and can't find them. Everywhere charges and I don't have the means. I would love to see adult classes being supported...

Not free but very cheap - http://www.peoplescollege.ie/courses.html#irishbeg

ELEMENTARY IRISH <<back to top


Lecturer: Aonghus Ó Croídheáin
This course is suitable for those who may have done Irish at school but want to go back to basics. The emphasis will be on oral Irish. By the end of the term students will be able to hold a basic conversation. They will also learn some Irish songs, poetry and seanfhocail. The aim is to re-learn, in an enjoyable way, the rudiments of the Irish language and culture.

This is a 20 week course divided into two terms of 10 weeks each - it will continue in January 2011.

Time: 6.15 -7.45p.m. 10 classes Cost: €50.00

There's also lots of stuff you can do yourself - this link has a load of very basic stuffs from youtube. Though if you spent some time on those you could easily pop into the conradh (irish speaking pub) and get chatting to people.

http://www.irishrepublican.net/forum/showthread.php?56042-15-Basic-Irish-Lessons

alan85

I didn't ask you for the link to something cheap. I am aware of The People's College anyway.

Question: Would you support free adult classes nationwide and other supports as a precursor to non-compulsory L.C. Irish?

It may be a case of reform but not necessarily cheaper. I think at the end of the day you will be stretched to save money from Irish language education. I agree, reform is key. But support that's not there is badly needed and will be fought for if reform is as drastic as suggested by FG.

Bottle_of_Smoke

yeah i would support free lessons.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

alan85

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It is a drastic re-jig of things. If it's non-compulsory for L.C. you are going to have change the selection criteria for public sector and ecuation courses. I'm not saying the effects will necessarily be drastic but it is a drastic re-jig none the less. I think it will have to be done carefully. I would support it if proper supports were put in elsewhere and there was genuine grá for the language at the heart of it.

LordSutch

alan85 wrote: »

It is a drastic re-jig of things. If it's non-compulsory for L.C. you are going to have change the selection criteria for public sector and ecuation courses. I'm not saying the effects will necessarily be drastic but it is a drastic re-jig none the less. I think it will have to be done carefully. I would support it if proper supports were put in elsewhere and there was genuine grá for the language at the heart of it.

Welcome aboard alan85.

KeithAFC

I suppose Meningitis should be ignored by the Health service because Cancer is 'a far bigger issue'

Comparing life threatening diseases to a language which is hardly used in the grand scheme of things is rather silly.

deise go deo

Can people please stop using this thread as a platform for a rant about Irish.


Making Irish optional is not really an Issue, it will not happen before the curriculum is reformed, if it happens at all. This is layed out clearly in the program for government. Even FG were planning on doing it this way before Labor got Education.

This thread is to discuss those reforms. Please try to remember that.

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Whats your point? I am interested in this topic and want to know what his plans are for reforming how the language is taught. Do you have a problem with that?

If the resources (in the form of medical professionals' time) that could be devoted toward treating cancer were being devoted instead to applying homeopathic remedies, then yes, there would be cause for intervention. There are a limited number of hours in the school day. An hour devoted to Irish is an hour not devoted to something else—such as maths, science, or foreign languages, which are vitally important to our future.

So you are claiming that there is no educational benefit to teaching Irish?

It's clear from posts earlier in the thread that Mr Quinn is concerned about how much of students' time is regularly wasted on religion and Irish, to the detriment of the overall educational experience. I'm sure he'll be dealing with the issue in due course.

We shall wait and see about this. The process is clearly layed out in the program for government. Reform of the curriculum first with the possibility of making it optional after. This thread is intended to discuss these reforms, what should happen and what should not.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Should make it optional first, then reform, if its done that way the gaelige board will be a lot more enthusiastic about making it a student friendly subject.

alan85

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm sure there's still other sectors that would need a re-think if it were non-compulsory? Gardaí, do they still have to have compulsory L.C. Irish?

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Should make it optional first, then reform, if its done that way the gaelige board will be a lot more enthusiastic about making it a student friendly subject.

So instead of Reforming it, you would make it optional so that it has to be refomed?

Sounds a little unnecessary as the first step is reform anyway.