Microsoft begins work on the Xbox 720

profitius

About time. Theres plenty of things developers can't do with current generation consoles and they're also 5 years old now.

There has long been speculation about when Microsoft is going to release the next-gen Xbox (and Sony the PS4).

But it seems that in the case of MS, the Xbox 720, as many have dubbed it, may actually be sketched out on a drawing board somewhere.

Yesterday, CVG spotted Microsoft job listings for a number of positions, including a Hardware Verification Engineer and a VLSI Graphics Architect to work on a potential Xbox 360 successor.

Here’s the description (on LinkedIn) for the Hardware Engineer: “Do you have a passion for leading edge technology? Are you fascinated by the video game industry and Xbox 360? Come join a dynamic engineering team and play a key role in the development and verification of the Xbox and future platforms.”

“We are looking for an experienced Senior Hardware Design/Verification Engineer. You will be responsible for the design verification and qualification of the Xbox console at the component, motherboard, and system levels.”

Of course, this is just the start of the process, and the Xbox 720 could be a long way off yet.

Microsoft has treated the release of Kinect as more than a shot-in-the-arm for the current Xbox, and built the launch up almost as if it was a new console itself. It’s their hope that the motion controller will keep the X360 fresh for a few years yet, and we’d expect the next-gen consoles won’t be arriving for another three or maybe four years.

Kinect has certainly got off to a good enough start. It shifted 8 million units in its first three months, 3 million more than Microsoft’s target. That’s the numbers shipped to retailers, mind, although analysts estimate over 6 million of those have been sold on to consumers.

http://www.techwatch.co.uk/2011/03/08/microsoft-begins-work-on-the-xbox-720/

ShadowHearth

Is it 5 years allready?! I only get a kic of it now!!! I bet it will be anather 2-3 years untill we will see specs and partly working model....

smk89

profitius wrote: »

About time. Theres plenty of things developers can't do with current generation consoles and they're also 5 years old now.

Do you think that spending an extra ~€500 is going to improve anything other than visuals? They're pretty good already and plateauing to be honest. Good gaming is more than looks.

But hey onwards and upwards. Excelsior!!

ShadowHearth

I dont know.. I am pc gamer, so I played alot of pc versions ofoust popular game. When I was ordering bc2, I expected it to be.... Really **** looking, but I was nicely surprised. It was really decent! More power is okay ofc, but I bet they can have atleast 2-3 years with this xbox.

A bit off topic, but killzone 3 only now using full power of ps3. So xbox would not be far away of it.

profitius

smk89 wrote: »

Do you think that spending an extra ~€500 is going to improve anything other than visuals? They're pretty good already and plateauing to be honest. Good gaming is more than looks.

But hey onwards and upwards. Excelsior!!

Its not just visuals. Its game play too. Developers could be able to do more things and I'd expect new types of games to be developed. For instance grand theft auto on the next generation console would have more people with much better AI, maybe some animals introduced, the cars would be more realistic when getting damaged etc, better physics and higher frame rate and it would look fantastic too.

Personally I think 5 years is enough for a console. The main reason they might be holding off for another few years is because of next generation computer chips. I know some are in development like the memristor chip and a few others.

Syferus

Not 'about time', not even close.

A grand total of zero developers publishers relish or even want another reset of tech and a huge addition to the already spiraling development costs on home consoles. Move and Kinnect highlight how similar the console manufacturers' mindsets are.

The longer this generation lasts the better it is for everyone, unless developer bankruptcy is your thing.

Nollog

Syferus wrote: »

A grand total of zero developers publishers relish or even want another reset of tech and a huge addition to the already spiraling development costs on home consoles.

Not 'about time', not even close.

Then why do EA, THQ and Activision keep saying they need a new console?
New hardware means everyone wants to buy their games again.

Syferus

/\/ollog wrote: »

Then why do EA, THQ and Activision keep saying they need a new console?
New hardware means everyone wants to buy their games again.

No. A new console decreases your audience from 40 million units to a couple million. Excitement has never bested the raw ecnomics of the huge increase in cost invovled in developing for a new console. It took a good few cycles before either HD system was a completely viable entity for a third party. The prevailing sense in the industry, admidst a recession and multiple closures and mergers, is one of conservationism.

Sticky_Fingers

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Is it 5 years allready?! I only get a kic of it now!!! I bet it will be anather 2-3 years untill we will see specs and partly working model....

Going by MS previous form and the RROD fiasco I'd say they would consider good enough to ship.

Lets just hope they actually spend the time and effort making sure the bloody thing works this time instead of halfassing in an attempt to get one over on Sony and the PS4.

profitius

Syferus wrote: »

No. A new console decreases your audience from 40 million units to a couple million. The pervaileny sense in the industry, admidst a recession and multiple closures and mergers, is one of conservationism.

Its not like they'll suddenly stop making games for the current generation. They'll continue on as normal and start making next gen games too. All consoles starting off have a smaller base of owners but they eventually grow. As the xbox 360 profits start to dry up it'll be because people are buying for thier xbox 720. A no lose situation for developers really.

However, there are some compelling arguments as to why Microsoft should be considering an upgrade. "There are developers out there who are keen to get their teeth into new hardware," says Ingham. "There was an interesting quote from Cevat Yerli, the boss of Crytek, who said that the console market has remained static for so long that the high-end PCs are effectively a generation ahead in terms of hardware. So it's little wonder that some teams are getting slightly restless. The in-house studios, especially, are probably thinking, 'we're sick of the same old hardware, we want something new'."

Developer pester power should not be overlooked here. It's crucial to the console manufacturers to have the best studios onside, and the best studios tend to be the ones with incredibly bright, ambitious coders who want to try themselves against bleeding edge hardware. Sony famously toured the world's most talented development houses in 1994 taking its PlayStation demos with it – the company knew it had to get the dev community interested before even thinking about consumers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2011/mar/09/wii2-xbox720-console-rumours

Syferus

profitius wrote: »

Its not like they'll suddenly stop making games for the current generation. They'll continue on as normal and start making next gen games too. All consoles starting off have a smaller base of owners but they eventually grow. As the xbox 360 profits start to dry up it'll be because people are buying for thier xbox 720. A no lose situation for developers really.

A huge outlay by a manufacturer and a developer (who'll has to start development on the first few cycles games long before a console is released and a known success) is hardly no lose. In theory that idea has always been attractive but the records of how most consoles were supported by major players after its successor was release doesn't make for pretty reading.

Crytek are hardly a good source for level-headed commentary on technology or within-means development, I should add. They're heavily vested in bleeding edge technology and they're far from being in a good financial position.

The ultimate point is, as the first article says, the next generation is about three or four years off, and for very good reason.

Retr0gamer

Far too early to move at the moment imo.

New stupidly expensive console and developers and shops hiking game prices back up to 80 euros doesn't sound much fun to me.

Fnz

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Far too early to move at the moment imo.

... but hardly too early to plan.

DARK-KNIGHT

after spending a fortune on a new slim 250 then buying stand alone kinect 150 and the 50 odd games i have with tritton headset 200 euro fightstick 170 euro and they talk about a new console???

i say F U C K you ms if you do it this early im buying a gaming pc once and for all i swear

profitius

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

after spending a fortune on a new slim 250 then buying stand alone kinect 150 and the 50 odd games i have with tritton headset 200 euro fightstick 170 euro and they talk about a new console???

i say F U C K you ms if you do it this early im buying a gaming pc once and for all i swear

Nobody is forcing people to stop playing their xbox.

krudler

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

after spending a fortune on a new slim 250 then buying stand alone kinect 150 and the 50 odd games i have with tritton headset 200 euro fightstick 170 euro and they talk about a new console???

i say F U C K you ms if you do it this early im buying a gaming pc once and for all i swear

but then you'd have to upgrade it every few years anyway, I doubt a pc built 5 years ago will run Crysis 2 at full spec, consoles will play anything thats made for them.

2-3 years more is plenty of time to still push the tech with current consoles, look at the PS2, the best games visually, God Of War 2, GT4, DMC3, MGS3 etc etc only came out in 2005 onwards, that was 5 years after the consoles launch and they were only pushing it to its limits then.
Nobody complained when the PS3 came out 6 years after the PS2, which came about 6 years after the PS1. The original xbox came out in what, 2001? 360 in 2005, and whatever the new one is called in 2013? thats plenty of time between them to be fair.

Fnz

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

i say F U C K you ms if you do it this early im buying a gaming pc once and for all i swear

Not to dissuade you from 'going PC', but MS usually profit from that too.

DARK-KNIGHT

krudler wrote: »

but then you'd have to upgrade it every few years anyway, I doubt a pc built 5 years ago will run Crysis 2 at full spec, consoles will play anything thats made for them.

2-3 years more is plenty of time to still push the tech with current consoles, look at the PS2, the best games visually, God Of War 2, GT4, DMC3, MGS3 etc etc only came out in 2005 onwards, that was 5 years after the consoles launch and they were only pushing it to its limits then.
Nobody complained when the PS3 came out 6 years after the PS2, which came about 6 years after the PS1. The original xbox came out in what, 2001? 360 in 2005, and whatever the new one is called in 2013? thats plenty of time between them to be fair.

But ps2 was limited when ps3 was released? The xbox has plenty left to go IMO maybe I'm wrong or the heartache of my beloved 360 being obsolete hurts me like a bitch lol it's too soon ms I have about 11 games to get through first lol

DARK-KNIGHT

I just think ms owe us over rrod and quick releasing the 360 surely they won't make same mistakes???

Fnz

krudler wrote: »

but then you'd have to upgrade it every few years anyway, I doubt a pc built 5 years ago will run Crysis 2 at full spec, consoles will play anything thats made for them.

That's a specious comparison, and leads to:

- the graphical fidelity argument
- pricing of the full gaming setup
- Cost of content and cross-generational compatibility
- open vs. closed system

Tea_Bag

i for one welcome next gen consoles. most games coming out on the PC are ports from the 360/PS3, and dont even use a quarter of the brute power of my PC.
a better xbox will mean better quality ports for PC gamers.

btw, i play on a 360 and PC regurarly. i also have a PS3 that hasnt been turned on in months.

Magill

Tea_Bag wrote: »

i for one welcome next gen consoles. most games coming out on the PC are ports from the 360/PS3, and dont even use a quarter of the brute power of my PC.
a better xbox will mean better quality ports for PC gamers.

btw, i play on a 360 and PC regurarly. i also have a PS3 that hasnt been turned on in months.

The thing is... developers arent really pushing the current gen to their limits, so its not really down to the lack of power on the consoles. Maybe developers are just being lazy or more than likely PC hardware is just too far ahead.


Also 3/4 years is a long time, so it dont think it'll be too soon to be bring out a new gen of consoles.

ShadowHearth

profitius wrote: »

Its not like they'll suddenly stop making games for the current generation. They'll continue on as normal and start making next gen games too. All consoles starting off have a smaller base of owners but they eventually grow. As the xbox 360 profits start to dry up it'll be because people are buying for thier xbox 720. A no lose situation for developers really.

As soon as mew console will be out, you can forget about games for 360 etc. It happened to original xbox and ps2. All just jumped on new hardware. Itvwill be same story, and I wount blame them.... What is better? Making games for future console which will have a life spam of anather 6 years? Or make games on platform which is outdated.

Trust me, as soon as new generation will come out, you, me, all boards.ie all Ireland, Europe etc, will forget about 360.

Magill

ShadowHearth wrote: »

As soon as mew console will be out, you can forget about games for 360 etc. It happened to original xbox and ps2. All just jumped on new hardware. Itvwill be same story, and I wount blame them.... What is better? Making games for future console which will have a life spam of anather 6 years? Or make games on platform which is outdated.

Trust me, as soon as new generation will come out, you, me, all boards.ie all Ireland, Europe etc, will forget about 360.

Not true at all.... the PS2 was still having games released on it years after PS3 release, same with the PS1 -> PS2. Not everyone can afford a 600 pound console on release...

cython

Just so people are aware, there is an earlier thread over in the xbox forum dealing with much the same subject. I know they are in different forums at the moment, but maybe a merge is in order?

richymcdermott

Knowing Sony they will stick to there ten year plan , this topic has been brought up before and they said there gonna stick with the ps3 and still bring new titles to the platform. i cant see why the wii would bring out a new console when its selling well already, and for xbox theyll prob make a jump early like the did with the 360 though in fairness i dont see the point , better graphics thats it really. they wanna stick bringing new core games to the community than sending them indie games and kinetic stuff

ghostchant

In the past the console cycle was like clockwork, you could bet your house on a new generation every X years. I think the plateau we've hit is a great thing for everyone - the longer console lifespan means that:

- developers can use the skill-sets they've built up working on the consoles for a few more years with the chance of a reasonable sales return

- customers get more value for money out of their large initial investment in the consoles

- customers will actually be able to find the games that come out for the console at this point (normally when the best games get released, mainly due to the first point above), since they're not relegated to single copies sitting on shelves on gamestop etc, surrounded by xbox1080/PS9 etc launch titles (which, due to the launch-window rush and the lack of dev experience, won't actually look significantly better than the last gen and will likely play worse)

amacachi

ghostchant wrote: »

In the past the console cycle was like clockwork, you could bet your house on a new generation every X years. I think the plateau we've hit is a great thing for everyone - the longer console lifespan means that:

Was it? One thing I've noticed reading back is a lot of overlap and some very short and very long gaps depending on manufacturer. Or are you just talking about the 2 previous generations? :pac:

ghostchant

Of course there's always been overlap of generations. The ps2 is still in production for instance, so that generation isn't over technically. I'm not paying attention to that though, the way I personally think of it is that when a new 'gen' is launched, the one before it comes to a grinding halt, at least in terms of media coverage and shelf space. Remembering back to when the PS1 was released, I recall that I could no longer find anything in (multiformat) games magazines about the SNES, MD etc. (I read games magazines the generation before but I was a bit too young to notice the switch from 'old to new' in that case, or I was just blinded by excitement about the SNES.)

Walk into a game shop now and try to find the new ps2 releases, or look at the already rapidly diminishing shelf space the DS has as the 3DS cogs start to turn

ranopano

It's no coincidence that launch titles are terrible or boring games.

It takes a long time for developers to come to grips with a new console. OK, it took longer with the PS3 because of Sony messing about, but it still takes time.

So with a new console, the cost of making a game goes up. Developers take less risks and bang out Call of Duty Modern Warfare 38, Need for Speed Shift Unleashed Fast Car Game 84. And they might look a little prettier but so what?

The guy who said the next GTA would have a lot of extra stuff like animals and realistic damage on a next generation console, yeah it might. But if the PS4 came out, you'd see a new GTA game, cause it's guaranteed sales. You wouldn't see Rockstar taking a chance like with RDR and now L.A. Noire. It's only well into a console lifespan that thing's like that happen. Yeah it was 5-6 years from the PS1 to the PS2, but that doesn't mean it always has to be the same lifespan. The cycle will and should keep getting bigger.


A 10 year cycle makes sense to everyone. It was different with the PS1-PS2 and Xbox-Xbox 360 jump. Except for insanely realistic graphics developers can do nearly everything they can think of with this generation. So costs go down, more risks, better games. And don't forget the well established and incredible multiplayer networks set up for the current generation.

a better xbox will mean better quality ports for PC gamers.

I can see your point. But it will mean games with better graphics, and less of them. Not better games. I can relate to what you mean, you've got a deadly PC and you want amazing looking demanding games on it, but you're in the minority at the moment.

Magill wrote: »

Not true at all.... the PS2 was still having games released on it years after PS3 release, same with the PS1 -> PS2. Not everyone can afford a 600 pound console on release...

Well they release a new generation with the thinking that enough people can. Sony and Microsoft aren't on some crusade to further games technology. PS2 games still came out after the PS3, but they were ****ty PS2 ports or kids games weren't they?

TheDoc

I don't think you will see this for the next 5-8 years, easily.

There is alot of big plans for Kinect and the current generation hsa plenty of life left in it.

Not expecting anything for the next few years.

richymcdermott

ranopano wrote: »

It's no coincidence that launch titles are terrible or boring games.

It takes a long time for developers to come to grips with a new console. OK, it took longer with the PS3 because of Sony messing about, but it still takes time.

So with a new console, the cost of making a game goes up. Developers take less risks and bang out Call of Duty Modern Warfare 38, Need for Speed Shift Unleashed Fast Car Game 84. And they might look a little prettier but so what?

The guy who said the next GTA would have a lot of extra stuff like animals and realistic damage on a next generation console, yeah it might. But if the PS4 came out, you'd see a new GTA game, cause it's guaranteed sales. You wouldn't see Rockstar taking a chance like with RDR and now L.A. Noire. It's only well into a console lifespan that thing's like that happen. Yeah it was 5-6 years from the PS1 to the PS2, but that doesn't mean it always has to be the same lifespan. The cycle will and should keep getting bigger.


A 10 year cycle makes sense to everyone. It was different with the PS1-PS2 and Xbox-Xbox 360 jump. Except for insanely realistic graphics developers can do nearly everything they can think of with this generation. So costs go down, more risks, better games. And don't forget the well established and incredible multiplayer networks set up for the current generation.


I can see your point. But it will mean games with better graphics, and less of them. Not better games. I can relate to what you mean, you've got a deadly PC and you want amazing looking demanding games on it, but you're in the minority at the moment.


Well they release a new generation with the thinking that enough people can. Sony and Microsoft aren't on some crusade to further games technology. PS2 games still came out after the PS3, but they were ****ty PS2 ports or kids games weren't they?

Actually dude Sony weren't suppose to release their console till 2007 but because Microsoft release there's in 2005 they couldn't give them a 2 year head start, that's why you seen games like resistance that was originally suppose to be a ps2 title having come over to the ps3 with no polish.

Meesared

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think you will see this for the next 5-8 years, easily.

There is alot of big plans for Kinect and the current generation hsa plenty of life left in it.

Not expecting anything for the next few years.

Maybe not quite that long of a timeframe but yeah your right that its a few years off at the very least (2014 at the very earliest IMO)

Nollog

Syferus wrote: »

No. A new console decreases your audience from 40 million units to a couple million. Excitement has never bested the raw ecnomics of the huge increase in cost invovled in developing for a new console. It took a good few cycles before either HD system was a completely viable entity for a third party. The prevailing sense in the industry, admidst a recession and multiple closures and mergers, is one of conservationism.

Then why do they want to commit commercial suicide?

profitius

ShadowHearth wrote: »

As soon as mew console will be out, you can forget about games for 360 etc. It happened to original xbox and ps2. All just jumped on new hardware. Itvwill be same story, and I wount blame them.... What is better? Making games for future console which will have a life spam of anather 6 years? Or make games on platform which is outdated.

Trust me, as soon as new generation will come out, you, me, all boards.ie all Ireland, Europe etc, will forget about 360.

They won't forget about the PS3/360 because theres so many units sold and that means money to be made. The PS2 is still selling.

Its only natural for peoples attention to turn to the latest technology. CD's replaced tapes, windows 95 was replaced as was the floppy disc etc.

Notorioux

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think you will see this for the next 5-8 years, easily.

There is alot of big plans for Kinect and the current generation hsa plenty of life left in it.

Not expecting anything for the next few years.

+1 to this

TrustedApple

I still think theres a long time left in both the ps3 and xbox with a good size hd have int hit 200 euros yet so i still see maybe 2 to 3 years left in both

With the ps3 now having 3d games is there a need to upgrade this to the ps4 yet when sony lost there balls on the ps3. Sony are going to try and break even on the ps3 before the ps4 will come out but with all the updates on both there is no need for a upgrade just yet

But with the kinect on the xbox has added a few more years to the xbox and the games are still looking good to this day so why update ?

smk89

samapple789 wrote: »

I still think theres a long time left in both the ps3 and xbox with a good size hd have int hit 200 euros yet so i still see maybe 2 to 3 years left in both

With the ps3 now having 3d games is there a need to upgrade this to the ps4 yet when sony lost there balls on the ps3. Sony are going to try and break even on the ps3 before the ps4 will come out but with all the updates on both there is no need for a upgrade just yet

But with the kinect on the xbox has added a few more years to the xbox and the games are still looking good to this day so why update ?

They do have a few years left in them. But developing a new console takes alot of time and money.
If they start today it will only be ready in 3-4 years. A bit like kinect, it was probably originally designed in 2007-2008 when the wii was effectly raping the competition.

That_Guy

Careful planning for next gen consoles should happen right now but with Kinect having just been released I think it would be foolish to launch anything especially if these peripherals are designed to increase the longevity of the current crop of consoles.

The only thing I can see Microsoft tapping into is the 3D aspect of gaming as the PS3 can support that already.

Over the years, there will most likely be an influx in the sales of 3D TV's so planning around that might be the smart thing to do.

As it stands, I'm quite happy with both my Xbox/PS3. They do everything I want and more. I wouldn't expect any next gen consoles to be launched for another say 4 or 5 years.

I'd be surprised if Sony/Microsoft or indeed Nintendo released any new console in that time.

If there is something to be released by Microsoft, it may be a handheld although it is a very tough market to break into with Apple and Nintendo really bossing the market imo.

profitius

Regarding wanting to make a profit on the consoles, does anyone have any figures? I'd be surprised if microsoft were still making a loss on the xbox and I'd say also that they've seen how important it is to get the console out before the next playstation. Yes there were faults but it was still worthwhile for them to do it.

amacachi

profitius wrote: »

Regarding wanting to make a profit on the consoles, does anyone have any figures? I'd be surprised if microsoft were still making a loss on the xbox and I'd say also that they've seen how important it is to get the console out before the next playstation. Yes there were faults but it was still worthwhile for them to do it.

AFAIR MS were always making a profit on the consoles themselves though once marketing etc. were taken into account that would be different.
Sony on the other hand were making a massive loss at first. http://ie.ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746482p1.html I think the cost of each console halved within about a year and within 18 months they were breaking even on component costs at least.

Syferus

/\/ollog wrote: »

Then why do they want to commit commercial suicide?

They don't. Once a generation starts companies put most of their best teams to work on the new consoles that have a longer lifespan going forward, that hardly negates the fact doing so has become very fiscally painful. The level of art assets needed for top tier games now has meant the rules for generational shifts are much changed.

Nollog

Syferus wrote: »

They don't. Once a generation starts companies put most of their best teams to work on the new consoles that have a longer lifespan going forward, that hardly negates the fact doing so has become very fiscally painful. The level of art assets needed for top tier games now has meant the rules for generational shifts are much changed.

So now you're saying it's not bad?

Grumpypants

Im happy with the current generation now, but in 3 years time it will be time for a new console no harm with them starting to look at it seriously.

Syferus

/\/ollog wrote: »

So now you're saying it's not bad?

Pardon?

mcgovern

That_Guy wrote: »

Careful planning for next gen consoles should happen right now but with Kinect having just been released I think it would be foolish to launch anything especially if these peripherals are designed to increase the longevity of the current crop of consoles.

The only thing I can see Microsoft tapping into is the 3D aspect of gaming as the PS3 can support that already.

Over the years, there will most likely be an influx in the sales of 3D TV's so planning around that might be the smart thing to do.

As it stands, I'm quite happy with both my Xbox/PS3. They do everything I want and more. I wouldn't expect any next gen consoles to be launched for another say 4 or 5 years.

I'd be surprised if Sony/Microsoft or indeed Nintendo released any new console in that time.

If there is something to be released by Microsoft, it may be a handheld although it is a very tough market to break into with Apple and Nintendo really bossing the market imo.

The Xbox 360 already supports 3D gaming, same as the PS3, they just aren't pushing it as much, but Black Ops, for example, can be played in 3D on the Xbox 360.
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/37115/Xbox-360-is-fully-3D-capable

titan18

About time imo.As it is,this wouldn't be out until 2013/2014 anyway, and the 360 is already painfully outdated

profitius

I forgot to mention that its rumored that games could be disc free in next gen consoles. No more discs but instead games could be on memory sticks and probably most will be downloadable too. I remember the old sega megadrive with the big chunky cartridges!

DARK-KNIGHT

titan18 wrote: »

About time imo.As it is,this wouldn't be out until 2013/2014 anyway, and the 360 is already painfully outdated

care to say how you think its painfully outdated??? or are u just gonna throw a random comment like that on board here? it would have made sense for you to state why like??

Syferus

profitius wrote: »

I forgot to mention that its rumored that games could be disc free in next gen consoles. No more discs but instead games could be on memory sticks and probably most will be downloadable too. I remember the old sega megadrive with the big chunky cartridges!

The next generation won't be physical media free. Downloads will continue to be progressively pushed harder and harder but in simple terms the online infrastructure is barely there for anyone to download files in the region of 30-50GBs now in the most populous of places and it'll hardly be widespread enough in three years that the publishers could comtemplate cutting out retainers entirely. The proponents of that idea for the next generation are engaging in the most blinkered blue sky thinking imaginable.

krudler

titan18 wrote: »

About time imo.As it is,this wouldn't be out until 2013/2014 anyway, and the 360 is already painfully outdated

wait wait wait

*sits down*

ok....go.