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    #32
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    There is actually; most video games tend to be competitive or even combative - First Person Shooters being a case in points. As such they become a simulation of primitive hunting behaviour that males engaged in for millennia before the Neolithic Revolution.

    Instead video games geared towards women are under represented in the market. However the success of games such as the Sims have increased female participation as they are better geared towards them.

    Of course you are right to say that society has also shaped the way we view video games too, but I thought it important to highlight that there is an evolutionary aspect to it too.

    Hate to break it to you but I know a ridiculous amount of girls who would much rather have a MW2 session than play Sims. They're basically the only genre I play.

    Evolutionary aspects only go so far, we're well able to think past defined gender roles at this stage and realize that people are people, regardless of gender. We're all our own person with our own likes and our own dislikes that aren't defined by our gender, and summarizing us all like that is pointless and inherently restrictive.

    Give it 20 years and just as many girls will be into FPS as males, I'd nearly guarantee it. The numbers are already fairly big despite videogames being branded and advertised as 'male' activities from the outset. There's really no such thing as 'male' or 'female' activities. Just things that some people like and others don't.


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    #33
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    My point is that there's no reason why a woman should be more interested in shoes and a man more interested in video games. The reason they are is because that's the way society expects them to be - stereotypes impose upon people which in turn reinforces those stereotypes.
    Chicken or the egg
    And besides, it is more serious than you let on. If whole swathes of women "aren't interested" in science or engineering owing to never being exposed to it as children (or even having it subconsciously reinforced that it's a man's realm of interest), then we as a people are losing out on a huge number of potential advancements that those women would contribute to.
    Non Scientific roles are still valuable to society, you are painting a picture of women being a dead wait up until emancipation which simply isn't true. Society is perfectly fine when only a minority chooses to be involved in Science because as you say those who aren't involved in Science will still gain the benefits of Science.
    Consider the car. Tinkering with cars is a man's pursuit, and yet the human race as a whole benefits from cars. Nearly all breakthroughs in the internal combustion engine have been made by men because it is men who do the thinking on the matter, and yet it is not only men who drive or benefit from it. An entire gender is essentially being prevented from contributing because it isn't viewed as a woman's place. I'm not saying those women are desperate to help but being turned away, but even as children they would know that it's not "their place". That it's a realm of interest of boys, not girls, and they should look elsewhere. In order to fit in, they might want to look elsewhere.
    An entire gender is not being prevented from contributing, there are women engineers you know. Those who choose not to be engineers are doing so out of their own free will.
    I'm not saying those women are desperate to help but being turned away,
    So you agree they aren't being prevented then?
    but even as children they would know that it's not "their place". That it's a realm of interest of boys, not girls, and they should look elsewhere. In order to fit in, they might want to look elsewhere.
    So someone not interested in cars doesn't get involved in the fixing or manufacturing of cars. We should give shít why exactly? I don't really care what their reasons are for not being interested in cars, we all follow gender cues and we always will. They have survived this long for a reason, they didn't happen by accident. Those who fit outside of their gender roles are free to do so and are not prevented so I really don't see it as a problem.

    They are obviously doing something they have become interested in(for whatever reason). I don't see why we should try and manipulate the interests of women, how about they make up their own minds which you seem think they're incapable of doing. You basically want to manipulate women into Science for no other reason then you thinking having a 50/50 split in everything is somehow necessary.


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    #34
    PrincessLola
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭PrincessLola


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Lots of my female friends are fashion concious, like shoes, matching handbags etc. They work in areas like teaching, biology, chemistry. They aren't beat down stereotypes. They are strong independent women, who just happen to like 'girly' things. Some of my female friends prefer video games and action movies and dress 'tomboyish', while coming from identical backgrounds to the more 'girly' girls. I don't think it's a case of the 'girly' ones simply conforming to stereotype. They just happen to like what they like. Woe betide anyone who should criticise them for choosing to like what they like I'll tell you that.

    Yes. The women who sneer at 'girly' things are only reinforcing the notion that traditional masculinity>traditional femininity.
    There is nothing inferior about liking the colour pink or shopping or fashion. It does not make you stupid or a doormat.
    It reminds me of this quote from tv tropes:

    "...while most reasonable people see women and men as equals, few (if any) dare to claim that femininity is masculinity's equal." —Julia Serano


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    #35
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you but I know a ridiculous amount of girls who would much rather have a MW2 session than play Sims. They're basically the only genre I play.
    That doesn't really disprove what he said though. Still by far the most popular games amongst women are things like "The Sims", "Nintendogs" and Farmville all pretty much non-competitive.
    Evolutionary aspects only go so far, we're well able to think past defined gender roles at this stage and realize that people are people, regardless of gender. We're all our own person with our own likes and our own dislikes that aren't defined by our gender, and summarizing us all like that is pointless and inherently restrictive.
    People interest are very clearly influenced by their gender. It's not really possible to dispute this. Your interests are also influenced by your social class, location and age.

    Give it 20 years and just as many girls will be into FPS as males, I'd nearly guarantee it. The numbers are already fairly big despite videogames being branded and advertised as 'male' activities from the outset. There's really no such thing as 'male' or 'female' activities. Just things that some people like and others don't.
    Even if in 20's FPS games have an even gender split there will always be activities more favored by men and those more favored by women. If golf courses suddenly got filled up with women then the men would simply find something else to do.


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    #36
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    liah wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you but I know a ridiculous amount of girls who would much rather have a MW2 session than play Sims. They're basically the only genre I play.
    Commercially you would be the exception to the rule though.


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    #37
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    People interest are very clearly influenced by their gender. It's not really possible to dispute this. Your interests are also influenced by your social class, location and age.

    I'd argue that the majority of distinct gender roles are due to subconscious social conditioning rather than legitimately having anything to do with your possession of a penis or vagina.

    This is becoming more and more clear in our society, as the gender role lines are blurring far more openly than they have in quite some time. It's not at all uncommon to hear of a guy who loves clothes and a girl who loves sports. Would've been a bit odd a century ago, though. But times change, as do gender roles.

    Kinda like how up until the '50s or so (don't quote me on the decade), blue was for girls and pink was for boys. Or the Amazons of however long ago.

    Saying "well x's love of x is because she's a girl" is stupid when there's another guy who feels the same way. Everyone's individual and we're smart enough to realize that gender roles don't matter anymore and to think outside of them.

    You seem to think that the world as it is now is the world as it always was, that or its largely patriarchal past has no impact on what's going on now, and that it will never be any different. I would have to disagree on each.

    But I'm not going to bother with further argument with you.


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    #38
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Commercially you would be the exception to the rule though.

    My point is that these exceptions are becoming more and more common due to a general acceptance of the idea that everyone is an individual and not governed by their genitalia.


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    #39
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    liah wrote: »
    My point is that these exceptions are becoming more and more common due to a general acceptance of the idea that everyone is an individual and not governed by their genitalia.
    I don't disagree with you - please read my first post in this thread.


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    #40
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I don't disagree with you - please read my first post in this thread.

    Fair enough, must've missed it.


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    #41
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Interestingly, I've notied that toy shops no longer label things as 'boys toys (GI Joe, transformers etc.)' and 'girls toys (barbie, my Little Pony etc.)'. Step in the right direction I'd say. But at the same time I don't think we'll ever get a 50/50 split of boys or girls playing with GI Joe/Barbie. I'd say in time we'll be done with 'gender roles' to an extent, but people shouldn't interprate every last little thing not being divided directly down the middle as gender inequality or our upbringing system has somehow failed. I'd imagine things will continue to even out somewhat, but there will never be an equal amount of female builders or male midwifes.


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    #42
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    I'd argue that the majority of distinct gender roles are due to subconscious social conditioning rather than legitimately having anything to do with your possession of a penis or vagina.
    If they don't have anything to do with my gender than how are they gender roles?:confused:

    Subconscious social conditioning is decided in part by my gender. Young boys mimic mostly mimic men and young girls mostly mimic women.
    This is becoming more and more clear in our society, as the gender role lines are blurring far more openly than they have in quite some time. It's not at all uncommon to hear of a guy who loves clothes and a girl who loves sports. Would've been a bit odd a century ago, though. But times change, as do gender roles.
    I don't think it would have been that odd a century ago but yes maybe 20 years ago. Taste was more of a class thing before mass production. Gender based interests regularly change but that doesn't change the fact there are always interests that are more associated with a certain gender. Genders are equal but they will always be different and their tastes will reflect this.
    Saying "well x's love of x is because she's a girl" is stupid when there's another guy who feels the same way. Everyone's individual and we're smart enough to realize that gender roles don't matter anymore and to think outside of them.
    Why is ignoring gender roles seen as a smart thing to do? Do you honestly believe humans have no reason for following gender roles and it just came about and stuck around even though it didn't serve a purpose. That would be pretty strange thing to happen if it didn't serve purpose. I don't why you want to ignore gender differences so badly.
    You seem to think that the world as it is now is the world as it always was, that or its largely patriarchal past has no impact on what's going on now, and that it will never be any different. I would have to disagree on each.
    Our gender roles will change but we will always have gender roles.


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    #43
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    My point is that these exceptions are becoming more and more common due to a general acceptance of the idea that everyone is an individual and not governed by their genitalia.
    I don't see how being affected by gender roles makes you less of an individual. Every single persons interests is affected by their gender. Interests don't just form out of no where they have to be influenced by something such as gender,wealth and family. If you were a male born in Liberia do you really think you would be anything like you are now?


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    #44
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    I don't see how being affected by gender roles makes you less of an individual. Every single persons interests is affected by their gender. Interests don't just form out of no where they have to be influenced by something such as gender,wealth and family. If you were a male born in Liberia do you really think you would be anything like you are now?

    No one's denying that people's interests are influenced by their gender. Of course they are; this very thread proves that.

    What some of us are arguing is that, ideally, gender would have very little influence on what people can or cannot enjoy. Seriously, I have far more in common with a girl who happens to like video games, fantasy fiction, lazing about and eating too much than I would a man who goes drinking every Friday, spends a fortune on his appearance and watches action films.


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    #45
    Snowie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,048 ✭✭✭✭Snowie


    PrincessLola wrote: »
    What would be the female equivalent of men loving toys and video games?
    Seriously, I want to know..

    The wii its like an infectous deasese then they never get played :pac:
    Giselle wrote: »
    Shoes and handbags?

    No I dont think thats the case I know plenty of women who online game..
    Count Duckula wrote: »
    Why is buying shoes the female equivalent of men playing video games? I'd say the equivalent in women would be... playing video games.

    Or do some people believe that women are inherently more interested in the bits of dead animal that they strap to their feet?

    I liek dead animals on my feet they look pretty :pac:
    Galvasean wrote: »
    Lots of my female friends are fashion concious, like shoes, matching handbags etc. They work in areas like teaching, biology, chemistry. They aren't beat down stereotypes. They are strong independent women, who just happen to like 'girly' things. Some of my female friends prefer video games and action movies and dress 'tomboyish', while coming from identical backgrounds to the more 'girly' girls. I don't think it's a case of the 'girly' ones simply conforming to stereotype. They just happen to like what they like. Woe betide anyone who should criticise them for choosing to like what they like I'll tell you that.

    Over the years ive spent a lot of money on computer games .... Ive spent a lot on my senakers I dont mean in the sums of 80 euros I bye tough to find limited addtion ones that no one else has and thats why i buy them

    I like exspenive things, i liek to know Im the only one with the kicks on my feet and if i saw some one with them on I'd be pissed..... I dont think you have to be "female" in order to want to look good.. If you wanna dress bad that's fine but to just aim that
    at just women is highly sexist.

    At the end of the day there are to types of men ones that a like to look good know they look good and those who are happy to dress in soem god awfull fasion and think they look good.


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    #46
    Maguined
    Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    No one's denying that people's interests are influenced by their gender. Of course they are; this very thread proves that.

    What some of us are arguing is that, ideally, gender would have very little influence on what people can or cannot enjoy. Seriously, I have far more in common with a girl who happens to like video games, fantasy fiction, lazing about and eating too much than I would a man who goes drinking every Friday, spends a fortune on his appearance and watches action films.

    Yes but nothing is stopping people from enjoying things outside their "normal" gender guidelines. You could argue social pressure but dealing with social pressure is part of being an individual. Any girl can enjoy a computer game and if she gets some stick about it from people that is something she can just brush off just as a man being really into fashion might get stick from his mates he can also equally brush it off.


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    #47
    boobar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    There are some with the opinion that there comes an age when one is too old to play video games.

    Have a look at this thread...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055918876

    Some good observations made.


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    #48
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Get the state of the beard on that journo...he looks like Jimmy Carr with facial pubes. Never trust a man who sports facial hard and/or has a cleverly folded hanky in his suit pocket.

    I'm 41, I still play games when I get the chance. Lots of guys I know and work with who are the same age and older do the same.

    Even John Hamm (plays Donald Draper in Mad Men) confessed to being an Angry Birds addict recently.


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    #49
    boobar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Get the state of the beard on that journo...he looks like Jimmy Carr with facial pubes. Never trust a man who sports facial hard and/or has a cleverly folded hanky in his suit pocket.

    I'm 41, I still play games when I get the chance. Lots of guys I know and work with who are the same age and older do the same.

    Even John Hamm (plays Donald Draper in Mad Men) confessed to being an Angry Birds addict recently.


    I'm 40 later this year. Going to put the PS3 on the gift list....if it's good enough for Don Draper, it'll be good enough for me.


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