How To Get To Crotty's Lake

STIG83

For a place ive heard so much about, i have no idea where exactly it is!! All i know its up in the mountain somewhere, so where do i go to get there? Hopefully i get to do this and Coumshingaun again (was there in 1999, was bought up there from school for Junior Cert Geography) That was impressive from what i remember.

dayshah

Its a bit north of Coumshingaun, but you'd be better off getting a map. I think the Discover Series 75 has it (or maybe its 76).

Guramoogah

Crotty's Lake and Crotty's Cave are on private land and are not accessible to the public. The owner of the land, Bernard Cullinane, has sealed off his land and has promised to sue trespassers. There was an item in last Saturday's (5th March) Irish Times about walking around Coumshingaun and the views from Fauscoum and Crotty's Rock. They also printed a map showing the access route.

STIG83

Guramoogah wrote: »

Crotty's Lake and Crotty's Cave are on private land and are not accessible to the public. The owner of the land, Bernard Cullinane, has sealed off his land and has promised to sue trespassers. There was an item in last Saturday's (5th March) Irish Times about walking around Coumshingaun and the views from Fauscoum and Crotty's Rock. They also printed a map showing the access route.

That's disappointing to hear, is the landowner able to do that? Should it not be open for tourists?

Any link to the Irish Times?

mike65

old Crottys Lake thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=51754225

Guramoogah

STIG83 wrote:

Any link to the Irish Times?

I can't find the article on the Irish Times website. Here's a scan of the route, though:

STIG83

Looks like Crotty's lake is a no go if that farmer has blocked people off entering his land from what i saw on that old thread

crottys lake

To answer an earlier thread, the owner is perfectly entitled to close access to the lake and there is no hope of a change of heart until the impasse between him and the 2 local councils is resolved. As everyone knows Crottys Lake could be one of the drivers of the tourism revenue streams in Waterford and its typical of what happens in Waterford.

Jonybgud

Would you care to enlighten us as to what the problem actually is?

crottys lake

As you might have guessed I am actually the owner and a lot of nonsense has been spoken as to the reasons behind this. I will only revisit this subject when there is a public apology from Carrick on Suir Urban District Council to my family and when Waterford County Council actually show that they are serious in their pursuit of a proper tourism srategy led by other stakehoders and myself. In fairness to Dennis MaCarthy, who seems to be progressive in is thinking, there might be a chink of light but it will take a real and very serious gesture before any reopening of my lake and lands will take place. As in any conflict [none of my doing ] ,its the ordinary people that suffer and that disappoints me .

liogairmhordain

as an alternative to coumshingaun or crottys lake i would suggest "lough mohra" which is beautiful, accessible and fully waymarked:
http://tcsinfoland.ireland.ie/content/Multimedia/Attachments/359_53bLOUGHMOHRA.pdf

or else "bay lough" in the knockmealdowns which is a nice easy stroll, also carrigavantry

Psychedelic

crottys lake wrote: »

As you might have guessed I am actually the owner and a lot of nonsense has been spoken as to the reasons behind this. I will only revisit this subject when there is a public apology from Carrick on Suir Urban District Council to my family and when Waterford County Council actually show that they are serious in their pursuit of a proper tourism srategy led by other stakehoders and myself. In fairness to Dennis MaCarthy, who seems to be progressive in is thinking, there might be a chink of light but it will take a real and very serious gesture before any reopening of my lake and lands will take place. As in any conflict [none of my doing ] ,its the ordinary people that suffer and that disappoints me .

What did the councils do to you? What does access to your lake and lands have anything to do with the councils anyway?

dayshah

I've no way of knowing if that is Bernard Cullinane, the genuine owner, posting.

What happened was is that the landowner applied for planning permission for an overblown development that would have totally ruined the scenery.

When this was rejected he decided to ban anyone from having access to the lake.

I think this is very childish behaviour on the part of the landowner.

What sickens me is that through my taxes I'm paying the incomes of farmers in this country, and then they try stop me visiting a lake. I don't think people should be allowed walk through wheat fields, but I don't think farmers should prevent their paymasters from walking through rough ground.

Here is a link to the story.
http://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/local/scenic_lake_closed_to_walkers_in_planning_row_1_2256529

marlin vs

Looks like he's throwing his toy's out of the pram, which is a pity as he should be trying to get people bihind him and not against him.

Psychedelic

Yeah it seems like that alright, "Let me build my (inappropriate) development or I won't allow access to land that I own". I'd say he thought by restricting access that the public would side with him against the Council.

STIG83

I thought the land on a mountain or around it is common land, so if a group of people turn up to cross it to get to the lake, the landowner is gonna sue them and call the Guards to arrest them?
I think the Guards have better things to be doing than worrying bout people trespassing to get to a well known Waterford landmark.

crottys lake

Crotty's Lake and my land around it is private, hence that's why I say trespassers will be sued. When a meaningful approach is made to me , then, and only then, will I contemplate any future access to my lands. So, in the meantime , get over it and point some of your anger at the power's that be. They have ruined it for you all.

munster_mafia

Better be making sure you never leave a gate open or a hole in a ditch, cant stop them otherwise.

By the looks of this thread your doing yourself no favours, grow up and let people in.

marlin vs

crottys lake wrote: »

Crotty's Lake and my land around it is private, hence that's why I say trespassers will be sued. When a meaningful approach is made to me , then, and only then, will I contemplate any future access to my lands. So, in the meantime , get over it and point some of your anger at the power's that be. They have ruined it for you all.

Did you ever hear the saying,"there is pleasure in sharing"and "good will to all men" come on let the people in,wouldn't it be nice to have people saying nice thing's about you when you'r gone.Have a happy Easter.

STIG83

crottys lake wrote: »

Crotty's Lake and my land around it is private, hence that's why I say trespassers will be sued. When a meaningful approach is made to me , then, and only then, will I contemplate any future access to my lands. So, in the meantime , get over it and point some of your anger at the power's that be. They have ruined it for you all.

Just because you and the Council are at loggerheads why do other people have to suffer? I think you should let by gones be by gones and open up the access.

Psychedelic

crottys lake wrote: »

Crotty's Lake and my land around it is private, hence that's why I say trespassers will be sued. When a meaningful approach is made to me , then, and only then, will I contemplate any future access to my lands. So, in the meantime , get over it and point some of your anger at the power's that be. They have ruined it for you all.

You have ruined it. You control access to the lake, not the council.

crottys lake

The only reason I commented on this site is to inform all tourists of the situation. As I say I will consider new proposals when they are put to me. I would advise that anymore disparaging remarks like in some earlier posts will only exacerbate the situation.

dayshah

crottys lake wrote: »

Crotty's Lake and my land around it is private, hence that's why I say trespassers will be sued. When a meaningful approach is made to me , then, and only then, will I contemplate any future access to my lands. So, in the meantime , get over it and point some of your anger at the power's that be. They have ruined it for you all.

And how much money are you getting in handouts from the government?

Why should we financially support scrounger farmers like this one who won't allow access to rough ground?

The majority of farmers are decent people who work hard, and I don't think people should be allowed walk around wheat fields and so on. But I've zero respect for someone who is perfectly willing to take hand-outs from the public, but wont allow the public access to rough ground.

crottys lake

It just goes to show the type of idiotic and moronic comments that appear on websites. Let me briefly enlighten the likes of that Stig83, Pshchedelic, Munster Mafia and the equally stupid Dayshah, I have never been awarded any hand outs from the Government nor are any of you idiots paying taxes for my benefit, in actual fact I employ people and our company have an established business providing public service for the local communities since 1964 and to further educate the aforementioned clowns its I who have given handouts to the likes of you and the Govt. in the shape of 280,000 gallons of water every day since 1962 to Carrick on Suir and its surrounds.

Sully

crottys lake wrote: »

It just goes to show the type of idiotic and moronic comments that appear on websites. Let me briefly enlighten the likes of that Stig83, Pshchedelic, Munster Mafia and the equally stupid Dayshah, I have never been awarded any hand outs from the Government nor are any of you idiots paying taxes for my benefit, in actual fact I employ people and our company have an established business providing public service for the local communities since 1964 and to further educate the aforementioned clowns its I who have given handouts to the likes of you and the Govt. in the shape of 280,000 gallons of water every day since 1962 to Carrick on Suir and its surrounds.

Mod Note

"Idiotic moronic comments" you accuse the posters, yet you come on here and start dishing out a bit of personal abuse in your post? :S

Banned - 7 days for personal abuse. This site has guidelines that apply sitewide and personal abuse happens to be one. You got an email on sign up about our Terms & Conditions, read them and the forum charter before posting on this site again please.

Thanks.

STIG83

I went up to Coumshingaun Lake today, i noticed alot of people up there, even saw a German reg car parked near me.
Im sure alot of people coming to visit Waterford go to these scenic places(Mahon Falls car park would be full up on a Sunday) or people going for a Sunday stroll but its not good for tourism if places like Crotty's Lake are blocked, anyone coming to Waterford and they get a booklet on attractions, AFAIK Crotty's Lake is still in some of the booklets but when anyone goes to Crotty's Lake they are in for a shock to see it blocked off with no trespassing signs.
It sickens me that the landowner can do this, that lake was there well before him and will be there when he and anyone else is gone, just because he didnt get his way with the Council why should the public suffer?

munster_mafia

And I taught I was just offering some friendly advice!

dayshah

Here is an up to date article from the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/2011/0305/Pg058.html

I really think any payments to farmers should be contingent upon access to land.

Does anyone know if anyone tested the legality of the closure? I know in a recent case of Lissadell House the public had right of way due to long standing access. I think the Co Council should take a case, or at least investigate the issue.

STIG83

dayshah wrote: »

Here is an up to date article from the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/2011/0305/Pg058.html

I really think any payments to farmers should be contingent upon access to land.

Does anyone know if anyone tested the legality of the closure? I know in a recent case of Lissadell House the public had right of way due to long standing access. I think the Co Council should take a case, or at least investigate the issue.

I was wondering that myself, just because Cullinane put up a No Trespassing sign, that mightnt mean anything without getting legal advice

dayshah

STIG83 wrote: »

I was wondering that myself, just because Cullinane put up a No Trespassing sign, that mightnt mean anything without getting legal advice

I'm no lawyer. However he is threatening to sue people. But you can only sue people for damages. I can't see what damage is caused by people going for a walk on rough ground which is a long distance from a family home.

I'd understand if there was problems with littering, or some sort of liability issue, or if it was right beside someone's private residence. However it is 100% clear that Bernard Cullinane closed in retaliation for planning permission being denied.

He says he never received a handout. Doesn't he realise that the horse breeding industry (his job) is hugely dependent on subsidies from the taxpayer? He expects to receive handouts for his hobby, but denies people who's hobby is to see a part of Waterford's heritage.

STIG83

dayshah wrote: »

I'm no lawyer. However he is threatening to sue people. But you can only sue people for damages. I can't see what damage is caused by people going for a walk on rough ground which is a long distance from a family home.

I'd understand if there was problems with littering, or some sort of liability issue, or if it was right beside someone's private residence. However it is 100% clear that Bernard Cullinane closed in retaliation for planning permission being denied.

He says he never received a handout. Doesn't he realise that the horse breeding industry (his job) is hugely dependent on subsidies from the taxpayer? He expects to receive handouts for his hobby, but denies people who's hobby is to see a part of Waterford's heritage.

That exactly it, taking his anger or bitterness(whatever you call it) out on the public, i was gonna PM you Dayshah but i seem to cannot

Sully

Trespassing is illegal. You can be prosecuted for it.

Private property, he doesn't have to give access. The case was different to what we have here. He has every right to block access afaik - just like they do with the Metal Man. Council probably should be a bit more co-operative with him for the public and tourist benefit. Within reason.

dayshah

Sully wrote: »

Trespassing is illegal. You can be prosecuted for it.

Private property, he doesn't have to give access. The case was different to what we have here. He has every right to block access afaik - just like they do with the Metal Man. Council probably should be a bit more co-operative with him for the public and tourist benefit. Within reason.

Yes, but rights of way can exist due to 'tradition'. For example if for 30 years you allow your neighbour cross your back garden as a short-cut then I think due to 'adverse possession' they can have a legal right to a right of way. But of course I'm not a lawyer.

There are already schemes to compensate farmers for access to land. If there is public access it is inevitable that some fences will be damaged and so on, so that's why there are schemes to cover this. But this case is purely a retaliation because he wasn't given planning permission. It was one of those boom time developments totally out of character with the area.

I think people should be allowed go to the Metal Man too, but I think an important difference is that the farmer in Tramore has cows and so on around the metal man. So people going there would be interacting with the cows and so on. Its all a working farm. However Crotty's lake is rough ground.

byhookorbycrook

Rights of way only exisit where gates have been traditionally open for 7 yrs,we were always told. When the people of the "big house" in Stradbally lived in Woodhouse, the entrance gate to the cove was closed twice a year to maintain their private status.

dayshah

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Rights of way only exisit where gates have been traditionally open for 7 yrs,we were always told. When the people of the "big house" in Stradbally lived in Woodhouse, the entrance gate to the cove was closed twice a year to maintain their private status.

Its a good few years since I was up by Crotty's Lake. But as far as I can remember there was no fencing around the lake separating it from the rest of the mountain. Ie, you could walk from Coumshingaun to Crotty's lake without crossing a fence. It wasn't easily accessible, but that's what mountaineering is all about.

So I suppose it must have been open from the mountain side for a long time.

Mountainsandh

I think the man has a point, an eco friendly development in that area would create employment and encourage tourism, two very badly needed commodities.

There is a lot of begrudgery for people who are likely to make a few bobs out of an enterprise, whatever that is. It is a pity. The authorities should be working with people who have such projects, not against them... and the public too.

The only means of pressure the man has are the land and the lake, glad for once somebody has the guts to take a stand.

I'm not Irish, and before anyone suggests I "go home if I don't like it here" (has happened), I have been living here 15 years and I do love Ireland and the Irish... but this "no way" mentality pains me to witness.

Co Waterford has a lot to offer, I have my entire French entourage endoctrinated and in love with the county after their numerous visits, and yet, unless people start supporting ideas for development, it is going to stagnate till everything of interest will be destroyed by vandals or disgruntled locals (look at the fairy tree incident).

The man (and I don't know him !) is right : the discontent would be better vented to the authorities, after all, they're the ones holding back the project.

dayshah

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I think the man has a point, an eco friendly development in that area would create employment and encourage tourism, two very badly needed commodities.

It was a €30 million development. That's not exactly an eco-development. If it were to be done in an urban setting I wouldn't object.

I would hate if Ireland destroyed the scenery we are trying to promote, like has happened in Spain and other countries.

Mountainsandh

Actually, the more money involved, the better looking and more eco-friendly the development is likely to be.
Scenery is not going to be destroyed by 40 log cabins and a few extra buildings. If the planning department were doing their job properly, which they might just have to, now, finally, then the designing can obviously
be discussed and debated until a reasonably good looking development is agreed on.

Is that what the man is planning ?
http://www.a-gites.com/vacances-la-plagne-bellecote-IMG1225738818-121210.jpg

If that's the case, I'm with you.

I grew up close to skiing resorts, and have seen many a built up area in the Alps which looked the part and did not destroy the scenery.
One development in the Crotty's lake area does not necessarily mean you are going to be developping Mahon Falls, and the Nire, and other Comeraghs lakes. To the scale of Ireland, one development in this one spot could in fact be marketed as covering the entire Comeragh range.

Irish architects have shown in other places how inventive and sensitive they can be to the environment, this is the occasion to come up with something the area could be proud of, 30 million is a good bit of money to be working with.

Psychedelic

Mountainsandh wrote: »

The man (and I don't know him !) is right : the discontent would be better vented to the authorities, after all, they're the ones holding back the project.

The Council is holding back his development but they are not blocking access to his land. That is the land owner in an attempt to get the public to be angry at the Council, when it is him and only him who is blocking public access. Basically it's "let me build my development or no one is allowed on my land". Sounds a bit petty to me.

After re-reading the article here it looks he may have some genuine cause for complaint against the Council, but again, I don't think this should have anything to do with the public accessing the land.

dayshah

I think we should have a law like in Sweden that allows public access to rough land.

The public are paying the subsidies to the horse industry and agriculture. I think the public should get something back in return.

Mountainsandh

Psychedelic, yes, I do understand that, it is the man blocking access. He is doing it to make a point though, that can be seen as petty, or from where I stand, he is just using what means of pressure he has on the council.
I know several people who got refused planning permission on very unfair terms, and who felt absolutely powerless. I'm sure if any one of them had had a way to pressurise the planning department, they would have used it, and rightly so, in my opinion.

I'm into photography, and since I have started to explore good spots for photo opportunities, I have found that a lot of lovely places were indeed private. Whoever owns those places is lucky, and if they were to open them up to the public I would be very grateful, but if they don't wish to do so, it should be their choice.
As far as I know, this man did not steal the land, or "cunningly" buy it off an unsuspicious farmer, it was in his family. So he was just being nice by letting people enjoy the lake. It seems to me he was thinking the people would side up with him, not against him, and if people were supportive of him, that would indeed be an effective way to get the council to work with him for his project.

Daysha, by your reasoning, a dairy farmer who receives subsidies for his farm would owe something back to the public too ? So what should the farmers give us for free ?
I'll settle for a warm pint of milk a day. :pac:

edit : I really do hope it is reopened to the public some day, and if there is a good access road, and maybe a place to have a cup of tea, so much the better, I can take the grannies out for a lovely day up there. And if there are discreet comfortable cabins on the spot, I'll be sure to recommend them to my French friends and family, eager to explore the Comeraghs and experience the lovely mountains. If you were going on a trip to hike a bit in the Alps, and had a choice between staying in a cabin by a lake up there, or down in the noisy town 10 miles below, what would you choose ?

dayshah

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Daysha, by your reasoning, a dairy farmer who receives subsidies for his farm would owe something back to the public too ? So what should the farmers give us for free ?
I'll settle for a warm pint of milk a day. :pac:

I think I should be allowed walk across the field to see something like the metalman. If people were interfering with the cattle I'd think the farmer should then be allowed keep the area closed until that issue was resolved.

However, there are plenty of farmers who allow access because it doesn't cause any hassle. Farming can be a lonely profession and they are happy if people are friendly to the farmer and talk about the hurling and so on. Others can become fairly contrary in a Bull McCabe sort of way.

Psychedelic

Dayshah, regarding access to the Metalman, I heard last year that access is going to it is going to be allowed in the near future.

dayshah

Psychedelic wrote: »

Dayshah, regarding access to the Metalman, I heard last year that access is going to it is going to be allowed in the near future.

That's good. I think Mr Metalman had something of a case as his field did have cows in it, and is by the side of a cliff.

STIG83

Psychedelic wrote: »

Dayshah, regarding access to the Metalman, I heard last year that access is going to it is going to be allowed in the near future.

Nice one!!

Boskowski

So basically rather than leaving it unspoiled he sniffed a commercial enterprise and when turned down he's acting the bollix.
Unfortunately that is only making him look even more selfish.
If public development was his interest he surely wouldn't punish the public. How a carpark and 40 cabins are going to be eco friendly and eduxational i dont know you can paint it green its still a car park. This sounds like spin around what's basically just a commercial project in an unspoiled area.
Now his commercial interest is hampered and he's thrown his toys out the pram it seems.

STIG83

Boskowski wrote: »

So basically rather than leaving it unspoiled he sniffed a commercial enterprise and when turned down he's acting the bollix.
Unfortunately that is only making him look even more selfish.
If public development was his interest he surely wouldn't punish the public. How a carpark and 40 cabins are going to be eco friendly and eduxational i dont know you can paint it green its still a car park. This sounds like spin around what's basically just a commercial project in an unspoiled area.
Now his commercial interest is hampered and he's thrown his toys out the pram it seems.

Taking it out on other people cos he didnt get his way is all it is.

deiseb0y

I was actually at Crotty's Lake today and it is a beautiful spot.
There were wild goats there and what I believe was a goshawk, though I didn't get a clear look at it.

There was a dead lamb floating in the lake, which I removed, so the people of Carrick on Suir should be safe to drink their free water.

I had no idea that the lake was off limits to the public and, approaching from the Coumshingaun side I saw no signs or fences indicating that there was no public access.

Apologies to Mr Cullinane for my inadvertent trespass. I can assure him that I did not damage any fences or other property.

Reading this thread, my sympathies tend to go toward Mr Cullinane in his attempt to open up the Comeraghs to some controlled access, in what seems to be a sympathetic project.
I tend to agree with the points made by Mountainsandh.

It's easy to just say no to every development, but I think the relevant authorities, whilst bearing in mind their duty as public servants and environmental protectors, should also be trying to act constructively in their approach to such projects. They should be making suggestions and counter proposals if they think the project is not suitable as it stands.

As to Mr Cullinane, I would ask him to look into his heart and find the magnaminity to share his birthright and not punish the innocent in this matter.

dayshah

deiseb0y wrote: »

I had no idea that the lake was off limits to the public and, approaching from the Coumshingaun side I saw no signs or fences indicating that there was no public access.

I wonder what the legal situation is. Ordnance Survey maps don't say who owns what land, so if I am wandering through the mountains, and don't see any signage, is that considered trespassing?

Finnbar01

Apparently the development consisted of 40 log cabins, parking facilities, and a place for visitors to shower and buy refreshments.

If this development had to go ahead I would say it would be half finished and left there.

The council did Mr Cullinane a blessing in disguise.

audidiesel

personally i think they should allow the development now.

but even if they gave planning, in these current economic times i dont think the landowner would receive funding so it would be a moot point.

if there was a picture/sketch of the proposed development and it looked ok then i think mr. Cullinane would get more support.

hopefully it does get resolved at some stage. havent been there in about ten - fifteen years and would like to make the trip again