Update on case that could wipe out Ireland's Hare Coursing Club

TippFan77

Judgment in the case of Irish Coursing Club v Greenband investments is due to be delivered on Wednesday, March 9th.

All animal welfare groups should have an interest in this because the ICC is expected to be saddled with a massive bill for damages and costs and this could spell the end for the governing body of live hare coursing in Ireland.

For anyone interested, the case is open to the public and will be heard in the High Court (justice Frank Clarke presiding) on Wednesday March 9th.

Several animal welfare campaigners and anti-hare coursing people will be there so you'll be in good company!

joyce2009

the sooner the better as far as i'm concerned:D

Sigma Force

It would be great, a step in the right direction. No doubt there'll still be people doing it on the sly especially as we haven't enough welfare officers in this country.

Discodog

Oh dear I desperately hope that there is not any kind of protest or barracking. The Judge has to & will judge this on the legal merits & not on the morals of coursing. Any protest may annoy the Judge into making a pro coursing decision or finding in favour of Greenband but only awarding small damages.

For once I would urge any protesters to stay away.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

For once I would urge any protesters to stay away.

+1 This case has nothing whatsoever to do with coursing or it's legal status, I would even question API being the appropriate forum for discussion about it.

TippFan77

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

+1 This case has nothing whatsoever to do with coursing or it's legal status, I would even question API being the appropriate forum for discussion about it.

You are of course correct when you say the case is not about the rights or wrongs of hare coursing itself, but animal welfare people are taking a huge interest in it because of its possible implications for the continued practise of hare coursing.

If the ICC is taken out of the equation, hare coursing is automatically affected. So you can see why opponents of the cruelty are so tuned in to this.

It's open to the public. It's at the Four Courts...Mr. Justice Frank Clarke presiding...starts at 11 am.

No protests of course, as the previous contributer advised, but an interesting case to observe.

Cherry Blossom

If the ICC is taken out of the equation it is most likely these 'events' will continue anway, there is every probability that they will be organised and run by less desirable folks in which case it really would be a sad day not just for coursing but for the Irish hare.

Wolfe Tone

Discodog wrote: »

Oh dear I desperately hope that there is not any kind of protest or barracking. The Judge has to & will judge this on the legal merits & not on the morals of coursing. Any protest may annoy the Judge into making a pro coursing decision or finding in favour of Greenband but only awarding small damages.

For once I would urge any protesters to stay away.

Yes the judge will be swayed by a handful of people with placards, I really dont think so

TippFan77

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

If the ICC is taken out of the equation it is most likely these 'events' will continue anway, there is every probability that they will be organised and run by less desirable folks in which case it really would be a sad day not just for coursing but for the Irish hare.

The ICC's demise would weaken the coursing clubs, but naturally legislation would still be needed to finish them off and give real protection to the hare.

Cherry Blossom

TippFan77 wrote: »

The ICC's demise would weaken the coursing clubs, but naturally legislation would still be needed to finish them off and give real protection to the hare.

This is just one senario of what 'could' happen and a very unlikely one in my honest opinion. Realisticly in the country's current economic state and under the new 'diverse' government I don't forsee any changes in animal legislation any time in the next decade tbh. At least the ICC provides some sort of regulation at present.

Sigma Force wrote: »

No doubt there'll still be people doing it on the sly especially as we haven't enough welfare officers in this country.

No-one has any need to do it 'on the sly', it will still be perfectly legal.

Discodog

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Yes the judge will be swayed by a handful of people with placards, I really dont think so

If you have been in Court as many times as I have you would know that Judges can & are influenced. It could also turn an appeal into a Pro/Anti debate with only one winner.

IrishHomer

So any news of this or was case put back?

dahat

THURSDAY, MARCH 10, 2011
THE Irish Coursing Club (ICC) has been ordered to pay €640,000 in damages to a private firm and could face further costs after a court case relating to a disputed land deal next to its grounds.

Mr Justice Frank Clarke announced the verdict at the commercial court yesterday as part of a long-standing case taken by developer company Greenband Investments.

The move potentially places a question mark over the financial stability of the Irish Coursing Club, with a trustee of the group previously stating substantial costs arising from the case could have "a major effect on the club".

Mr Justice Clarke awarded the damages to the private firm during a hearing yesterday and is due to provide a written verdict on the case and a relating issue today.

While the €640,000 expense is a fraction of the original €5.9 million claim, a decision on further costs to be awarded will not be made until another hearing planned for March 30.

The case, which was originally taken against the ICC in June 2008, relates to the coursing organisation’s interest in land next to its Powerstown Park stadium premises in Clonmel, Co Tipperary.

Greenband Investments sued the ICC to compel it to complete the sale of part of the lane way after claiming its €31m retail development would be jeopardised if this did not take place.

It claimed it made a written agreement with the ICC trustees in March 2008 to buy the lands for a sum of €100,000 and had paid a deposit of €10,000.

Greenband Investments claimed the ICC was aware at all times the purchase of the lands was part of a larger scheme of development by the private firm.

While the ICC had previously been told it would have to pay damages as a result of the dispute, the exact cost was not made clear until yesterday’s commercial court hearing.

In a statement responding to the news, the ICC said it needed to discuss the verdict with its members.

"The original claim was €5.9 million. Now that we know the damages we will be in a position to consider our position.

"We will meet our senior counsel and review the judgment and, of course, we will also report to our members before we decide what our next step will be," the statement read.

TippFan77

dahat wrote: »

THURSDAY, MARCH 10, 2011
THE Irish Coursing Club (ICC) has been ordered to pay €640,000 in damages to a private firm and could face further costs after a court case relating to a disputed land deal next to its grounds.

Mr Justice Frank Clarke announced the verdict at the commercial court yesterday as part of a long-standing case taken by developer company Greenband Investments.

The move potentially places a question mark over the financial stability of the Irish Coursing Club, with a trustee of the group previously stating substantial costs arising from the case could have "a major effect on the club".

Mr Justice Clarke awarded the damages to the private firm during a hearing yesterday and is due to provide a written verdict on the case and a relating issue today.

While the €640,000 expense is a fraction of the original €5.9 million claim, a decision on further costs to be awarded will not be made until another hearing planned for March 30.

The case, which was originally taken against the ICC in June 2008, relates to the coursing organisation’s interest in land next to its Powerstown Park stadium premises in Clonmel, Co Tipperary.

Greenband Investments sued the ICC to compel it to complete the sale of part of the lane way after claiming its €31m retail development would be jeopardised if this did not take place.

It claimed it made a written agreement with the ICC trustees in March 2008 to buy the lands for a sum of €100,000 and had paid a deposit of €10,000.

Greenband Investments claimed the ICC was aware at all times the purchase of the lands was part of a larger scheme of development by the private firm.

While the ICC had previously been told it would have to pay damages as a result of the dispute, the exact cost was not made clear until yesterday’s commercial court hearing.

In a statement responding to the news, the ICC said it needed to discuss the verdict with its members.

"The original claim was €5.9 million. Now that we know the damages we will be in a position to consider our position.

"We will meet our senior counsel and review the judgment and, of course, we will also report to our members before we decide what our next step will be," the statement read.

A far bigger and happier day for animal welfare in Ireland will be March 30th: that's when the judge will awards costs. These will three or four times greater than the damages awarded.

Bring it one, I say!

RE "regulation" of hare coursing, what utter nonsense. You could make the defence of cockfighting or badger baiting.

Both Labour and FG have promised to update animal welfare legislation. Exempting hare coursing and foxhunting from this process (due to powerful arm-twisting by wealthy hunt fans) will be seen for the sham it will be.

Why should a man or boy who kicks a dog or neglects to feed cattle or sheep be prosecuted and a coursing club thug who terrorises hares for kicks be deemed a respectable citizen?

Answer: one has deep pockets and is politicaly well-connected while the other doesn't promote his act of cruelty as a "sport".

Think I'm being unfair to the nice coursing set?

Have a look at the evidence:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/icabs/sets/72157624180875760/

Cherry Blossom

OP, I'm confused by your last post, I don't see any posts on this thread in support of hare-courseing, the post you have quoted is just an account of what happened with this case at court which I thought is what this thread was about. I have no interest in viewing any graphic images and don't see the necessity in posting them on a thread I thought was about how a commercial court case may affect a bloodsport.

Cock-fighting and badger baiting are illegal, I have no idea what the purpose is of the reference to these in your post.

Can you please clarify why you started this thread? Perhaps a broader title would have suited better if it was to address the legal position of coursing in general.

dahat

Seems the OP has derailed his own thread,seems to be ranting a bit off topic.

This was a thread on alegal matter not on the rights and wrongs of hare coursing,there is other threads discussing these matters.
I wonder has he posted in the wrong forum...

Your link has been posted many times,people are well aware of the these pictures and they have also been discussed in detail.

Discodog

I feel the OP's frustration that we have to rely on Civil legal cases to reduce Coursing - bit like Al Capone !.

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

I feel the OP's frustration that we have to rely on Civil legal cases to reduce Coursing - bit like Al Capone !.

Hopefully the OP will see that wishing financial ruin upon an organisation is no way to achieve the end result he so desires,have a feeling the end cost will be not the figure he thinks.
Coursing remains strong in this country and will do for a while longer i think.
Field coursing may well suffer from urban areas expanding towards the countryside but park coursing will i think be around for a long time,no matter what the result of this case

Discodog

Well I would share the OP's views, in that any financial penalty & cost to the ICC has to be a good thing. Also the case has shown that the ICC are prepared to lie & lack judgement. They were warned that their case was hopeless but their arrogance made them continue. Anything that damages the credibility of the ICC is a good thing.

Ireland will come under a lot of international pressure over Coursing & Animal Welfare. Any protests in London regarding the export of Greyhounds will hurt tourism & thanks to the net, potential foreign visitors are becoming aware of our record. As Greyhound racing dies out in the UK attention will focus on Ireland.

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

As Greyhound racing dies out in the UK attention will focus on Ireland.

Don't know much about the UK scene but greyhound racing seems popular over there.
I know they have banned live hare coursing but in general the sport seems strong and hardly likely to die out anytime soon.
The ICC are not exactly popular outside the sport and the higher echelons of society,it is this society that will offer the most protection to the board as they have people in the right places so to speak.This is just the way it works at the top.
As for welfare of the hare the regulations in place are as good as can be done i think.I am not so blind not to see how it can be seen as a cruel to some but the answers are not there to keep all happy.The sport will die it is just a matter of when,my own opinion is 12-15 years as technology generation comes on stream and old country ways and sports eventually die out.This will occur across many areas and i for one fear for the old ways and habv=its of ours and past generations,long lost to vast urban areas everywhere..............

sensibleken

Discodog wrote: »

Well I would share the OP's views, in that any financial penalty & cost to the ICC has to be a good thing. Also the case has shown that the ICC are prepared to lie & lack judgement. They were warned that their case was hopeless but their arrogance made them continue. Anything that damages the credibility of the ICC is a good thing.

Ireland will come under a lot of international pressure over Coursing & Animal Welfare. Any protests in London regarding the export of Greyhounds will hurt tourism & thanks to the net, potential foreign visitors are becoming aware of our record. As Greyhound racing dies out in the UK attention will focus on Ireland.

There was an article in one of the Sunday papers last week about Bord na gCon exporting greyhounds to China. Made my blood boil!

The amount of irish greyhounds that populate British rescues is horrendous. Another example of us exporting our problems to our nearest neighbour

Discodog

dahat wrote: »

Don't know much about the UK scene but greyhound racing seems popular over there.
I know they have banned live hare coursing but in general the sport seems strong and hardly likely to die out anytime soon.

A quick google will show that tracks are closing in the UK. There are dozens of UK welfare groups opposing racing but only a couple here. Peaceful protest is very effective. Once people become aware of the cost of racing, for example 10,000 dead dogs on one UK farm, they realise that Greyhound racing is unacceptable. The Dara O' Briain episode had no effect here but there were protests at many of his UK gigs.

One of the reasons that the IGB is looking to China is because they know that UK racing will die out. The consequences of Irish Greyhound racing, Hare Coursing, Stag hunts & our stray dog & horse problems were relatively unknown until the expansion of the internet. Now our horses are in the New York Times & on Al Jazeera. If FG try to reintroduce Stag hunting it will be big news - no one ever introduces pro-cruelty legislation.

Why would foreign animal lovers want to visit or holiday in a country that doesn't care about animal welfare ?.

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

Why would foreign animal lovers want to visit or holiday in a country that doesn't care about animal welfare ?.

So people who love animals wouldnt dream of going on a sun holiday to Spain after all there is the bullfighting there, or Canada since they cull seals and they would never dream of going to see the great wall of China since they do terrible things to animals there?
You must have a lot of sleepless nights stressing about living in and contributing to a country that has such terrible laws and attituded to animals.

sensibleken

homerhop wrote: »

So people who love animals wouldnt dream of going on a sun holiday to Spain after all there is the bullfighting there, or Canada since they cull seals and they would never dream of going to see the great wall of China since they do terrible things to animals there?

they could go to catalunya as theyve outlawed bull fighting. I wouldnt go to chine personally for many ethical reasons. The seal thing I dont know enough to comment.

homerhop

sensibleken wrote: »

they could go to catalunya as theyve outlawed bull fighting. I wouldnt go to chine personally for many ethical reasons. The seal thing I dont know enough to comment.

Last time I checked Catalunya is still part of Spain, or do we just get tourists to visit counties in Ireland now that have better animal shelters than others?

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

So people who love animals wouldnt dream of going on a sun holiday to Spain after all there is the bullfighting there, or Canada since they cull seals and they would never dream of going to see the great wall of China since they do terrible things to animals there?

The difference is that the UK is our major tourist supplier. Many UK tourists come here because it's easy for them to bring their dog & the majority will be animal lovers. Most are or were unaware of our record but that is changing. Most of our European neighbours are also becoming aware of the situation here - many Irish strays end up in European rescues & even the "Hare video" was shot by a foreign tourist.

homerhop wrote: »

or do we just get tourists to visit counties in Ireland now that have better animal shelters than others?

Just because an area has better shelters it doesn't mean that there are less unwanted animals. The Irish are perceived as not caring & happy to let other people deal with their strays.

It is all about awareness & Ireland cannot hide any longer.

sensibleken

homerhop wrote: »

Last time I checked Catalunya is still part of Spain, or do we just get tourists to visit counties in Ireland now that have better animal shelters than others?

The political position of catalunya is not the same as Irish counties. Catalunys is a 'autonomous comunity' with its own laws and parliament

Discodog

sensibleken wrote: »

The political position of catalunya is not the same as Irish counties. Catalunys is a 'autonomous comunity' with its own laws and parliament

Don't tell a Catalunian that he is Spanish :eek:

He will tell you that he is Catalan.

sensibleken

Discodog wrote: »

Don't tell a Catalunian that he is Spanish :eek:

He will tell you that he is Catalan.

tell that to homerhop

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

The difference is that the UK is our major tourist supplier. Many UK tourists come here because it's easy for them to bring their dog & the majority will be animal lovers.

And a certain sect are comming in hoards from the UK solely for the purpose of engaging in and watching sports that have now been banned in the UK Would you really punish the majority population of a country (because we are all affected by the economic value of the tourism industry of the country) because of the ethics of certain niche groups and/or failure of the government to run the country effectively, especially one that is a relatively young country politically speaking? There are certain places on the planet I would like to vist sometime in my lifetime and should the opportunity ever arise nothing outside of my own personal circumstances will stop me from doing so.

There is a lot more to ethics than animal welfare, there are plenty of other moral issues that people won't consider when choosing a holiday destination (how are children treated there? the environment? and so on), please do let us all know if anyone discovers this utopian paradise because I will add it to my list of places to see before I die.

homerhop

sensibleken wrote: »

tell that to homerhop

Spain's Constitutional Court assessed the disputed articles and on 28 June 2010, issued its judgment on the principal allegation of unconstitutionality presented by the People's Party in 2006. The judgment granted clear passage to 182 articles of the 223 that make up the fundamental text. The court approved 73 of the 114 articles that the People's Party had contested, while declaring 14 articles unconstitutional in whole or in part and imposing a restrictive interpretation on 27 others.The court accepted the specific provision that described Catalonia as a "nation", however ruled that it was a historical and cultural term with no legal weight, and that Spain remained the only nation recognised by the constitution.

Untill it is recognised internationally as an independant country it is still part of Spain no matter how the locals see themselves.

homerhop

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

please do let us all know if anyone discovers this utopian paradise because I will add it to my list of places to see before I die.

Seemingly the shining light for us all to hold in awe is the uk

Discodog

Yes Ireland will become a Bloodsports Tourist paradise but there are far more animal lovers than abusers. UK animal lovers are far more vocal than their Irish counterparts & what will annoy them the most is the lack of any campaigns or protests.

I have met plenty of tourists who have been shocked at seeing dogs on 6ft chains etc. It is a very emotional issue for them & it causes distress - not something that you want on a holiday. I know of several tourists who ended up bringing an Irish dog back with them.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Would you really punish the majority population of a country (because we are all affected by the economic value of the tourism industry of the country) because of the ethics of certain niche groups and/or failure of the government to run the country effectively,

I am not punishing anyone but it's not the ethics of a niche group. It is the abject failure of the population to care enough about animal welfare. The government is elected by the people.

Economics will always have more influence in Ireland. If enough potential tourists said that they will not come to Ireland until the situation improves it would have an effect.

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

Seemingly the shining light for us all to hold in awe is the uk

They still have plenty of problems but they are in a different league when it comes to caring about animal welfare. And they are prepared to help animals from Ireland by taking hundreds of our dogs & investing millions here eg the Dogs Trust.

Cherry Blossom

I was under the impression the dog's trust was set up here because they were named beneficiary of a massive estate under the condition that it would be used in this country, is this not correct?

sensibleken

homerhop wrote: »

Spain's Constitutional Court assessed the disputed articles and on 28 June 2010, issued its judgment on the principal allegation of unconstitutionality presented by the People's Party in 2006. The judgment granted clear passage to 182 articles of the 223 that make up the fundamental text. The court approved 73 of the 114 articles that the People's Party had contested, while declaring 14 articles unconstitutional in whole or in part and imposing a restrictive interpretation on 27 others.The court accepted the specific provision that described Catalonia as a "nation", however ruled that it was a historical and cultural term with no legal weight, and that Spain remained the only nation recognised by the constitution.

Untill it is recognised internationally as an independant country it is still part of Spain no matter how the locals see themselves.

look im not going to derail this thread over talking about spanish political life but nobody said catulunya was not in spain nor did anyone say it was a country

Cherry Blossom

homerhop wrote: »

Seemingly the shining light for us all to hold in awe is the uk

Far from it, having lived there myself a five minute journey on public transport is a massive eye-opener! And just to keep it animal related (although I now have absolutely no clue whatsoever what the purpose of this thread is) I just arrived in the country, left the airport and got on the train where there was a lady with a guide dog. At the next stop a bunch of skinhead football hooligans got on the train with 2 dogs that proceeded to attack the guidedog. The "animal-loving" Brittish public turned thier heads and pretended there was something even more interesting going outside while I attempted to intervene. The lady was then showered with a hoard of verbal abuse from the idiots on the other end of the leads asking her if she was just blind or stupid as well. I'm pretty sure that would never be tollerated in Ireland!

I've also removed a battery from the mouth of a guide dog on public transport wile a lady commented that that dirty animal had no business being on a public bus anyway. A regular sight is the social elite tip-toeing round anything that looks remotely scruffy in a desperate bid to protect their designer footwear sometimes while clutching a diamante ridden puppy-farmed oodle under their arm but of course arrogance is bliss :rolleyes:.

This is about as far removed from what I would deem 'animal-loving' as you can get.

I'm pretty sick of hearing about the UK's excellent animal-welfare record and I haven't even touched on the state of native ponies kept on commonland and moores etc.

Discodog - the UK takes a lot more than hundreds of our dogs, the UK supplies the main demand for Irish puppy farms, tens of thousands are exported to them annually.

homerhop

sensibleken wrote: »

Originally Posted by Discodog View Post
Don't tell a Catalunian that he is Spanish
He will tell you that he is Catalan.
tell that to homerhop

The point i was making when Discodog said animal lovers would not go to countries that had records of animal abuse is not the case unless they are "hardliners".
I pointed out Spain as an example, to which you said you would go to catulunya as it has its own policy. I pointed out it was still part of Spain so under Discodogs theory animal lovers would still have issues with going to part of Spain. Discodog pointed out that a person from catulunya does not see themselves as Spanish which you noted he should tell me. I pointed out the fact that no matter how they see themselves they are internationally recognised as still Spanish so thus again by Discodogs theory animal lovers would still avoid going there.

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I was under the impression the dog's trust was set up here because they were named beneficiary of a massive estate under the condition that it would be used in this country, is this not correct?

Not true as far as I know & nothing mentioned in the accounts

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/about/accounts/default.aspx

The money for Dublin & Romania was raised by UK dog lovers.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I'm pretty sick of hearing about the UK's excellent animal-welfare record and I haven't even touched on the state of native ponies kept on commonland and moores etc.
Discodog - the UK takes a lot more than hundreds of our dogs, the UK supplies the main demand for Irish puppy farms, tens of thousands are exported to them annually.

I have never mentioned an excellent animal welfare record. I have said that the UK is vastly better than here. I spent many years working with rescues in the UK. I cannot recall one incident & I attended hundreds, where the public were not incredibly helpful as were the Police & Fire Brigade. The UK public are amazingly good at reporting ill treatment or sick animals.

Per person the UK population donate many times more money to animal welfare that the Irish. For example the Dogs Trust received £60 million in 2009 & they are just one of many animal charities. Can you imagine us raising a pro rata £6 million here ?.

You may criticise regarding native ponies but at least you can pick up the phone & get an RSPCA officer on scene - try doing the same here. You know how hard it is to rehome a rescue horse here yet the RSPCA received 1500 offers of homes for the 37 Spindle Farm horses.

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

The point i was making when Discodog said animal lovers would not go to countries that had records of animal abuse is not the case unless they are "hardliners".

Hardliners ! - gosh you will be mentioning Anti's next

My neighbours are not hardliners (a couple in their 80's & born locally) but they know that animal welfare here is appalling.

But you & AJ are kind of proving my point. You both support animal welfare but you don't like Ireland being criticised, especially by the UK, so maybe overseas pressure will be more successful than lobbying here.

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

Hardliners ! - gosh you will be mentioning Anti's next

My neighbours are not hardliners (a couple in their 80's & born locally) but they know that animal welfare here is appalling.

But you & AJ are kind of proving my point. You both support animal welfare but you don't like Ireland being criticised, especially by the UK, so maybe overseas pressure will be more successful than lobbying here.

hard line - A firm stance or policy on which one will not compromise.
How else would you describe someone who would take such a strong stance on not going to a country that may have so much to offer in other aspects but stick to their stance on one subject?

Antis... they took the day off to go on a picnic with the big bad hunters

I have no problem with Ireland being criticerised at all, I was looking for a poster of garden birds so a 4yrs old could look at and learn what was in his garden, Bridwatch Ireland didnt even reply to a mail and for a national organisation I find it terrible that I had to look in other countries to get a chart for Irish garden birds.Oh and the UK ones wont post to Ireland even though I offered to pay the extra for postage :rolleyes:
I seem to recall people having a pop at Graces over holding Canada up as shining example, no more than you do the UK. People get tired of hearing the same old drone that this country is crap compared to x,y or z. As you say the UK is so far from being perfect but I dont see to many posts by you criticising it, but are very fast to run Ireland down.

Traonach

homerhop wrote: »

I have no problem with Ireland being criticerised at all, I was looking for a poster of garden birds so a 4yrs old could look at and learn what was in his garden, Bridwatch Ireland didnt even reply to a mail and for a national organisation I find it terrible that I had to look in other countries to get a chart for Irish garden birds.Oh and the UK ones wont post to Ireland even though I offered to pay the extra for postage :rolleyes:
.

Birdwatch Ireland are a voluntary organisation with a limited budget,involved in many crucial projects. They can't respond to everyone.
Why didn't you join Birdwatch Ireland:
http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Membership/tabid/79/Default.aspx

A free Garden Bird pack, full of information on how to attract, feed and identify birds

Discodog

I am Irish & I live in Ireland but, having spent many years in the UK, I am bound to make comparisons. I would love to be able to praise Ireland's welfare record & maybe one day I will be able to. But I don't subscribe to the view that we should all stay quiet & hope that things gradually improve. I don't care if people get tired of hearing the truth.

homerhop

Traonach wrote: »

Birdwatch Ireland are a voluntary organisation with a limited budget,involved in many crucial projects. They can't respond to everyone.
Why didn't you join Birdwatch Ireland:
http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Membership/tabid/79/Default.aspx

They may be a voluntary organisation, the same as the voluntary ones in the UK who were able to email me back in 2 days, unlike the 3 weeks and still waiting from BWI. I find that excuse poor. Education is a fairly important aspect of any organisation and as I stated it is my opinion that it is a disgrace that anyone would have to go to foreign countrie to get something an Irish organisation should have or be able to get through their shop , the poster was only £3.

Traonach

homerhop wrote: »

They may be a voluntary organisation, the same as the voluntary ones in the UK who were able to email me back in 2 days, unlike the 3 weeks and still waiting from BWI. I find that excuse poor. Education is a fairly important aspect of any organisation and as I stated it is my opinion that it is a disgrace that anyone would have to go to foreign countrie to get something an Irish organisation should have or be able to get through their shop , the poster was only £3.

The RSPB (UK) are a huge organisation, BWI are not. RSPB have over a million members while BWI have 14,000. Birdwatching in Ireland is not as popular as in the UK.:rolleyes:
Why don't you join and you will get the garden bird package??

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

But you & AJ are kind of proving my point. You both support animal welfare but you don't like Ireland being criticised, especially by the UK, so maybe overseas pressure will be more successful than lobbying here.

Have to correct you on this, I think everything should be criticised

Discodog wrote: »

I am Irish & I live in Ireland but, having spent many years in the UK, I am bound to make comparisons. I would love to be able to praise Ireland's welfare record & maybe one day I will be able to.

Firstly I have never seen any posts were you have compared things that are better here than in the UK (take for example BSL) Secondly, they aren't comparable entitiies, as I've already said Ireland is politicly a young country, we don't have the infrastructure, 'experience', history of successfully invading half the world etc.. Thankfully we don't have the massively unfair social hierarchy either! What we do have is a history of supression both by the Brittish and by the Roman Catholic church, every ounce of potential for free-thinking is quashed in childhood as soon as it shows itself. I'm sure you are well aware of the stubbern, lazy, can't be botherdness Irish mentality which is a direct result of how children were traditionally reared and taught in this country. The type of preaching that generally comes across in your posts does not go down well with a lot of people especially when there is no scope to even consider a different point of view. This overbearing method of informing the public does not work in this country, people just switch off as they have always done. I find little pieces of information at a time which can be absorbed and considered on it's merits works much better. Education is what is needed, not a zero tollerance approach, this only leads to rebellion.

I would dearly love to see a post where you have criticised one aspect of Brittish animal welfare awareness, I don't believe one exists which is astounding for a person who worked with animal-rescues in the UK for many years.

ISDW

Discodog wrote: »

Not true as far as I know & nothing mentioned in the accounts

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/about/accounts/default.aspx

The money for Dublin & Romania was raised by UK dog lovers.



I have never mentioned an excellent animal welfare record. I have said that the UK is vastly better than here. I spent many years working with rescues in the UK. I cannot recall one incident & I attended hundreds, where the public were not incredibly helpful as were the Police & Fire Brigade. The UK public are amazingly good at reporting ill treatment or sick animals.

Per person the UK population donate many times more money to animal welfare that the Irish. For example the Dogs Trust received £60 million in 2009 & they are just one of many animal charities. Can you imagine us raising a pro rata £6 million here ?.

You may criticise regarding native ponies but at least you can pick up the phone & get an RSPCA officer on scene - try doing the same here. You know how hard it is to rehome a rescue horse here yet the RSPCA received 1500 offers of homes for the 37 Spindle Farm horses.

Is it not possible that amongst those UK people that gave money to the Dublin Dogs Trust there could have been some Irish people living there that wanted to help? I'm Irish, I used to live in the UK and I had a direct debit monthly to the Dogs Trust.

Members of the public will help in the UK with reporting animal cruelty? Well for that to happen, someone else must be being cruel surely, another UK person perhaps?

Maybe Ireland doesn't give as much per head to animal charities as the UK, but I think that we gave more per head to the Live Aid charity than any other country in the world, and still tend to give more I think to famine charities etc. Maybe thats got something to do with our history? We are a developed country, but as AJ points out, still a young one, maybe with our not so distant past, when there wasn't respect for a human life, trying to instil respect for an animal will take a while?

DD the UK has many, many, many animal welfare issues, a lot of rescues over there have no respect for the RSPCA, there have been a lot of instances of them not being the bastions of animal welfare that you seem to hold them up as - thinking of those GSDs they shot. Dog fighting is big business over there, and bait dogs are tortured every day. Yes, some people get involved and help, but the majority don't.

EGAR

I have reversed the trend - instead of sending rescue dogs to the UK, I take them from there.

A lot has changed in the 15 years I am living here. People are more aware of neuter/spay, the advent of the www has made it much easier to access information etc

As to the tourists, hmmm, I am right on the *Into the West Caravan* route, most of the ones playing at being Gypsies in horse-drawn barrel tops are English, Dutch, French or German. The horses are in ill-fitting tag, lose shoes etc. And these tourist blissfully rally on and think they are the bees knees with the tea-towel fluttering in the wind on the back of the wagon.

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Firstly I have never seen any posts were you have compared things that are better here than in the UK (take for example BSL)

I have always opposed BSL & now it appears that the UK will remove it. At the moment I can't think of any aspect of animal welfare that is better here than in the UK.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I'm sure you are well aware of the stubbern, lazy, can't be botherdness Irish mentality This overbearing method of informing the public does not work in this country, people just switch off as they have always done.

No I am not. I do not think that there is an Irish mentality. We may not like being told what to do but the majority accept it without protest - the smoking ban was a classic example. We have allowed our Country to be wrecked without much protest.

ISDW wrote: »

Is it not possible that amongst those UK people that gave money to the Dublin Dogs Trust there could have been some Irish people living there that wanted to help?

Of course but the majority will be UK nationals. How would you get on rattling a tin in Ireland for an animal rescue in Romania ?.

ISDW wrote: »

Members of the public will help in the UK with reporting animal cruelty? Well for that to happen, someone else must be being cruel surely, another UK person perhaps?

Of course there is cruelty & neglect - the RSPCA is as busy as ever. But the point is that the majority of the population support welfare law & the RSPCA by voting for it & donating huge amounts of money. If the Irish public donated only 5% of the UK donations we would have a proper ISPCA.

ISDW wrote: »

trying to instil respect for an animal will take a while?

That's the bit that I find so upsetting. To me respecting an animal is a basic act of compassion. It should be instinctive & not something that needs to be taught. Also some Irish people do show compassion for animals & it seems to have nothing to do with their upbringing or history.

ISDW wrote: »

DD the UK has many, many, many animal welfare issues, a lot of rescues over there have no respect for the RSPCA, there have been a lot of instances of them not being the bastions of animal welfare that you seem to hold them up as - thinking of those GSDs they shot. Dog fighting is big business over there, and bait dogs are tortured every day. Yes, some people get involved and help, but the majority don't.

I actually know one of the 8 RSPCA inspectors involved in the GSD incident. Several of the inspectors who attended were very experienced & together they made a decision. I suspect that they probably did the best thing at the time.

Yes some rescues don't like the RSPCA. Some have been prosecuted by the RSPCA - not every rescue is perfect & some are more like zoos. I personally helped out with a "Dog Lady" who had over 40 dogs in the most appalling conditions.

The vast sums of money donated to Animal charities show that the majority do get involved. The Dogs Trust get £60 million & that is just one charity. When you add in the RSPCA, Blue Cross, & all the other rescues the amount donated is huge & can only be coming from many people.

TippFan77

As far as I know, the costs haven't yet been awarded in the case of ICC v Greenband. That could be a devastating blow to the ICC, which in turn would have implications for animal welfare if coursing clubs were weakened as a result. Have to wait and see.

Re the debate generally here, which has veerred away from the court case issue, I think that both animal welfare and what are described as "animal rights" groups do a lot for animals. I just think it's a pity that all the groups concerned about making life easier for animals can't cooperate more, though in fairness many different groups did come together for the recent anti- dogs to China demo.

We may have differences, but on some issues for the sake of the animals we need to unite more often.

TippFan77

dahat wrote: »

Don't know much about the UK scene but greyhound racing seems popular over there.
I know they have banned live hare coursing but in general the sport seems strong and hardly likely to die out anytime soon.
The ICC are not exactly popular outside the sport and the higher echelons of society,it is this society that will offer the most protection to the board as they have people in the right places so to speak.This is just the way it works at the top.
As for welfare of the hare the regulations in place are as good as can be done i think.I am not so blind not to see how it can be seen as a cruel to some but the answers are not there to keep all happy.The sport will die it is just a matter of when,my own opinion is 12-15 years as technology generation comes on stream and old country ways and sports eventually die out.This will occur across many areas and i for one fear for the old ways and habv=its of ours and past generations,long lost to vast urban areas everywhere..............

Opinion polls continue to show that a massive majority of British support the ban on hare coursing, more than 85%. The police are dedicated in their clampdown, as a search of newspaper articles on the issue will show. Naturally, some people will break the law, but those caught are dealt with effectively. In some cases, not only are they fined...their vehicles are crushed! Hare coursing survives here in Ireland thanks to political cronyism of the worst kind. The majority view on coursing is ignored by politicians because coursing clubs have rural deputies in a vice-like grip...with the PR system a few votes can mean the difference betweeen winning and losing a seat.