NUI matriculation requirements

paky

NUI matriculation requirements

I posted a similar thread on this matter in the legal discussions forum.

Can anyone tell me why it is necessary to have a third language ( apart from irish and english) to enter an nui university?

some people are exempt from this, non-irish nationals, if they meet the requirement, which i think is completely unfair

Bhoy_

Not all courses require a third language, pretty sure most science and engineering courses don't.

Liber8or

It demonstrates diversity and an aptitude for learning multiple subjects which test all of your capabilities. Furthermore, many of the subjects at University level can benefit from having a third language such as Spanish/French, etc.

For a long time now, the Irish educational system has been designed to cater for a broad spectrum of multinational industries and services. Our Leaving Certificate clearly demonstrates this, and so, our University system also (in some ways) reflects this.

As has been mentioned already, the Sciences and Engineering courses do not require a third language, one might argue that Maths is their third language.

You mention foreign-nationals not needing the third language. Perhaps that is because they already speak a globalised language (as well as English in most cases) so that requirement is not applicable to them. I wonder does your username represent your disposition towards various groups which you feel have an advantage over you, or your predicament when it comes to third level education...

Alt_Grrr

paky wrote: »

NUI matriculation requirements

I posted a similar thread on this matter in the legal discussions forum.

Can anyone tell me why it is necessary to have a third language ( apart from irish and english) to enter an nui university?

some people are exempt from this, non-irish nationals, if they meet the requirement, which i think is completely unfair

Not entirely true, you can get an exemption (Which in this case is not a "Ah sure we'll let you in" more of a "You've been deemed to have met the other requirements, so exception can be made in your case" as my letter said)

I was unlucky enough to get an exemption from the the study of Irish at an early age (I won't go into details why exactly), but my secondary school decided that I should do a "Third Language" as they put it for the leaving cert, on the basis that NUI institutions require it.
(I found out afterwards that if your have an exemption from the study of Irish on grounds other then nationality, you can apply nicely for them to waive that requirement too, they don't seem to really save some time and do them both at the same time... wish I found that out before barely scraping a pass in ordinary French)

Once I got into first year the requirement for a third language was dropped from science and engineering courses for the coming years.

I do think your asking for a lot when you expect students to have a knowledge of 3 languages, maybe just one or two is enough.

But I'm sure there is no real reason why (Being one language short has never stopped me from achieving my potential academically, or getting employment), other then they can set the matriculation requirements whatever why they want and maybe they can get a few more well rounded students... or maybe not.

paky

Liber8or wrote: »

You mention foreign-nationals not needing the third language. Perhaps that is because they already speak a globalised language (as well as English in most cases) so that requirement is not applicable to them. I wonder does your username represent your disposition towards various groups which you feel have an advantage over you, or your predicament when it comes to third level education...

did you ever think paky may be short for Patrick?

Irish is now recognised as a European language or is it not?

dont you dare label me a racist biggot

paky

Alt_Grrr wrote: »

Not entirely true, you can get an exemption (Which in this case is not a "Ah sure we'll let you in" more of a "You've been deemed to have met the other requirements, so exception can be made in your case" as my letter said)

I was unlucky enough to get an exemption from the the study of Irish at an early age (I won't go into details why exactly), but my secondary school decided that I should do a "Third Language" as they put it for the leaving cert, on the basis that NUI institutions require it.
(I found out afterwards that if your have an exemption from the study of Irish on grounds other then nationality, you can apply nicely for them to waive that requirement too, they don't seem to really save some time and do them both at the same time... wish I found that out before barely scraping a pass in ordinary French)

Once I got into first year the requirement for a third language was dropped from science and engineering courses for the coming years.

I do think your asking for a lot when you expect students to have a knowledge of 3 languages, maybe just one or two is enough.

But I'm sure there is no real reason why (Being one language short has never stopped me from achieving my potential academically, or getting employment), other then they can set the matriculation requirements whatever why they want and maybe they can get a few more well rounded students... or maybe not.

how do i go about getting an exemption? i only have irish and english.

there is no real reason for it and thats what makes it stupid and discriminatory. if somebody wishes to do arts they need a third language even though they may not even choose a language module? :eek:

Liber8or

paky wrote: »

did you ever think paky may be short for Patrick?

Irish is now recognised as a European language or is it not?

dont you ever dare ever label me a racist biggot

Fair enough, Patrick it is. Secondly, apart from doing Irish Language Studies, or Irish History (which is really only one component of History in Irish Universities), how much more can it help with the Humanities? French, Spanish, etc can offer a great deal more, and in some ways, having such a language is key to success at certain subjects in Third level. I.e reading texts/articles written in said language to reinforce your own work.

Thirdly, not once did I call you a 'racist biggot', however, I am sure this isn't the first time your username hasn't been construed as racist. Especially when you are moaning about the "injustice" that Irish people are subjected to when compared to non-Irish nationals... That is, you are giving out about foreign people in Ireland being exempt (calling it discrimination) and your username is 'Paky'...

paky

Liber8or wrote: »

Thirdly, not once did I call you a 'racist biggot',

you suggested i was and you suggest its the basis of my discussion

Liber8or wrote: »

however, I am sure this isn't the first time your username hasn't been construed as racist. Especially when you are moaning about the "injustice" that Irish people are subjected to when compared to non-Irish nationals

no im not, im simply pointing out a fact that affects me personally

Liber8or wrote: »

... That is, you are giving out about foreign people in Ireland being exempt (calling it discrimination) and your username is 'Paky'...

maybe you should stop posting now since you have nothing contructive to add to this discussion.

squishykins

I think it's so that the student has more opportunities open to them. Being able to speak another language (Whatever about Irish, you don't "learn the language" in school anyway to pass the LC) immediately makes you so much more employable, no matter what your qualification. I know myself that I'm more than likely going to end up living in Germany, and I'm so glad that I have that option, cuz the UK, USA and Australia really don't appeal to me at all (well, Australia does, but it's too far away from family imo). Even if you aren't leaving the country, it still helps a great deal.

I don't know if it should be that you have to have a third language to get into a University, maybe people should be given that choice, but people aged 16 and under tend not to be thinking about the bigger picture when they make their subject choices. I'm personally glad that I was forced to keep German on, I adore the language now.

As for foreign nationals, I think that it's fair, their school systems are different to ours and so they mightn't have had the opportunity for whatever reason. Irish nationals get exemptions from other countries if they study abroad too.

*edit* Also, many courses in arts are a lot easier to get by in if you have control of another language, i.e. How much music is composed in French/Italian/German? A hell of a lot more than in English. You are actually encouraged by many departments to take up a language course outside of college time to help improve your studies, if you haven't done in school.

paky

squishykins wrote: »

I think it's so that the student has more opportunities open to them. Being able to speak another language (Whatever about Irish, you don't "learn the language" in school anyway to pass the LC) immediately makes you so much more employable, no matter what your qualification. I know myself that I'm more than likely going to end up living in Germany, and I'm so glad that I have that option, cuz the UK, USA and Australia really don't appeal to me at all (well, Australia does, but it's too far away from family imo). Even if you aren't leaving the country, it still helps a great deal.

I don't know if it should be that you have to have a third language to get into a University, maybe people should be given that choice, but people aged 16 and under tend not to be thinking about the bigger picture when they make their subject choices. I'm personally glad that I was forced to keep German on, I adore the language now.

As for foreign nationals, I think that it's fair, their school systems are different to ours and so they mightn't have had the opportunity for whatever reason. Irish nationals get exemptions from other countries if they study abroad too.

i understand what you're saying but applicants are being discriminated against on basis of educational background which is illegal

Liber8or

paky wrote: »

maybe you should stop posting now since you have nothing contructive to add to this discussion.

Ok Mr. Moderator, however I recommend you read what Squishykins wrote as we are both saying the same thing...

The Waltzing Consumer

paky wrote: »

you suggested i was and you suggest its the basis of my discussion

Well no, the poster did not suggest that. They were curious about your username and your comments. Judging by your tone, they were right to wonder about it.

paky wrote: »

no im not, im simply pointing out a fact that affects me personally

Who the hell gives up the third language in secondary school?
There would not be many students who would do that because it is well known by the vast majority of students that you need it for many colleges. Sorry, but it is your own fault. You could always repeat leaving cert language subject and apply the following year.

paky wrote: »

maybe you should stop posting now since you have nothing contructive to add to this discussion.

I have a feeling you are going to say that to anyone who disagrees with you.

The Waltzing Consumer

paky wrote: »

i understand what you're saying but applicants are being discriminated against on basis of educational background which is illegal

Eh no, no they are not. Just because you may have screwed up in choosing subjects does not mean you are being discriminated against. :P

It would be like if a student who got 60 points in the leaving cert started crying about discrimination because he could not get in to a course for 400 points. It is not discrimination, end of discussion.

squishykins

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Eh no, no they are not. Just because you may have screwed up in choosing subjects does not mean you are being discriminated against. :P

It would be like if a student who got 60 points in the leaving cert started crying about discrimination because he could not get in to a course for 400 points. It is not discrimination, end of discussion.

Was just about to say something along those lines.

You are warned from first year that some subject choices have to be based on future career/study choices. I wanted to keep home-ec and give up science in second year but I knew I couldn't, same with the language. They're things you have to consider, and it's nobody's fault but yours that you didn't.

paky

im not buying this c.rap that its your own fault

every candidate should be treated equally and its unlawful not to do so

The Waltzing Consumer

paky wrote: »

im not buying this c.rap that its your own fault

every candidate should be treated equally and its unlawful not to do so

I like your determination :P

You got spunk kid! You are dead wrong, but you are wrong in a funny way.

paky

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

You got spunk kid! You are dead wrong, but you are wrong in a funny way.

if you can explain to me why im wrong i will let this matter rest

squishykins

You're wrong because you ARE being treated equally. Everyone has to have a third language to get in, not just you. And it's not like it was sprung on you, a little hidden piece of information, you are told like a bajillion times in secondary that you need it. And foreign nationals have English as their "other language".

I've already said why it's important to have it, there is no discrimination.

The Waltzing Consumer

paky wrote: »

if you can explain to me why im wrong i will let this matter rest

You are wrong in the way that your claims of discrimination and it being illegal are not backed up by anything in law.

But, meh, ignore all that "law" stuff, carry on with your crusade, the real "law" is in here **points to heart** and you got plenty of that! :cool:

Liber8or

Treated equally; as in not discriminated against because of uncontrollable or unfair factors through birth or natural development.

The problem for you is choice.
You quite obviously DECIDED not to do a Third Language at Secondary School level. That was YOUR choice.

Similar example: I DECIDED to not do the Lotto this weekend - do I deserve a share of the winnings?

However! If you were somehow forced out of doing a Third Language, someone pointed a gun at you, someone said you can not do a Third Language because you are of a different race, then you clearly were discriminated against. Since you chose not to do a Third Language, a University can chose not to allow you to join their ranks.

Choice; its awesome, isn't it?

paky

squishykins wrote: »

You're wrong because you ARE being treated equally. Everyone has to have a third language to get in, not just you.

no they dont. like i said before, applicants are exempt from having irish (i.e. are third language) unless they studied in ireland all there lives.

this meaning that people who have studied in ireland all their lives must have 3 languages yet people who havent only need two.

this my friends is discriminatory.

equality is a fundamental right in our constitution:

FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS

Personal Rights
Article 40
1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

squishykins

paky wrote: »

no they dont. like i said before, applicants are exempt from having irish (i.e. are third language) unless they studied in ireland all there lives.

this meaning that people who have studied in ireland all their lives must have 3 languages yet people who havent only need two.

this my friends is discriminatory.

equality is a fundamental right in our constitution:

FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS

Personal Rights
Article 40
1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

And where are these people going to learn Irish? I know plenty of foreign people who would love to learn Irish, is there somewhere in their home country they can? It's not even taught properly here, it's some push to expect other people to know it.

*edit* Also, the majority of foreigners know a third language, if not more.

Liber8or

If this keeps going, it should be stickied.

Good luck with your crusade Paky, 'give 'em hell' as they say...

funky penguin

Keep it civil please folks. Remember to discuss the POST not the Poster.

paky

squishykins wrote: »

And where are these people going to learn Irish? I know plenty of foreign people who would love to learn Irish, is there somewhere in their home country they can? It's not even taught properly here, it's some push to expect other people to know it.

*edit* Also, the majority of foreigners know a third language, if not more.

thats not my argument.

my argument is why i should have to speak 3 languages when it is only necessary for them to speak two?

i spent my entire life in a gaelscoil and did my leaving cert through irish. up until then, irish was my first language.

if two is enough for someone who did not study here all their lives then why is more expected of me?

theres no equality being excerised in the application process

Alt_Grrr

paky wrote: »

how do i go about getting an exemption? i only have irish and english. :eek:

Talk to your Schools Career Guidance person, its a murky process. Or enquire to the admissions office folks. I think you really don't have a grounds for an exemption (As it seems nothing stopped you from learning a 3rd language, except your own short sightedness)

paky wrote: »

thats not my argument.

my argument is why i should have to speak 3 languages when it is only necessary for them to speak two?

i spent my entire life in a gaelscoil and did my leaving cert through irish. up until then, irish was my first language.

if two is enough for someone who did not study here all their lives then why is more expected of me?

theres no equality being excerised in the application process

I'm sure your aware that not all third level courses require a third language, so I really can't see your point (If you really want something then your going to have to work at it, remember the walls that life puts up are only to keep out those who don't really want it), but I'm sure your too busy arguing that having to do maths homework is unconstitutional :P

paky

Alt_Grrr wrote: »

Talk to your Schools Career Guidance person, its a murky process. Or enquire to the admissions office folks. I think you really don't have a grounds for an exemption (As it seems nothing stopped you from learning a 3rd language, except your own short sightedness)



I'm sure your aware that not all third level courses require a third language, so I really can't see your point (If you really want something then your going to have to work at it, remember the walls that life puts up are only to keep out those who don't really want it), but I'm sure your too busy arguing that having to do maths homework is unconstitutional :P

im actually a first year year law student. i want to apply for the irish army cadets but the application process is based on NUI Matriculation which has in turn denied my application, twice in my lifetime

234

paky wrote: »

im actually a first year year law student

paky wrote: »

equality is a fundamental right in our constitution:

FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS

Personal Rights
Article 40
1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

As a law student you should have been able to read on and discover that:

Article 40

[FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]
[*]All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

[/FONT][/FONT]

Not all discrimination is illegla of unconstitutional, in fact the majority of discrimination is perfectly valid. For instance our alcohol selling laws are based on age discrimination and they are perfectly valid. A difference in the nature of your education is a perfectly legal and constitutional form of discrimination when considering applications for university places. From a social policy point of view the language requirement might be open to question but from a legal point of view there's nothing wrong with it.

Alt_Grrr

paky wrote: »

im actually a first year year law student. i want to apply for the irish army cadets but the application process is based on NUI Matriculation which has in turn denied my application, twice in my lifetime

Well in that case, things are different.
The PDF are looking for not only all rounders, they also officers to have some ability to speak another language/be good with languages for operational purposes (There's a shopping list of reasons why you'd need to be able to speak another language in this case, many of which should be obvious)

Its a simple case of you don't currently meet the requirements. You can go and learn another language to leaving cert standard and sit the exam and meet the matriculation requirements (nothing stopping you from doing that) or you can complain on boards.

randylonghorn

paky wrote: »

i understand what you're saying but applicants are being discriminated against on basis of educational background which is illegal

Everyone who doesn't get the course they want in college because they didn't get the right points or the specific minimum requirements for that course is being discriminated against on the basis of educational background. Someone should really tell the government, the CAO and the colleges that it's illegal.

paky wrote: »

im actually a first year year law student.

O_O

My grandmother always said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

paky

well i still have a valid argument. two european citizens can apply for the same position in a third level college, same points, same course, but the irish one will be discriminated against on the basis of spending his/her life studying in ireland.
if thats not a case to argue then i dont know what is?