The Ireland that We Dreamed Of...

deise go deo

The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit – a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live. With the tidings that make such an Ireland possible, St. Patrick came to our ancestors fifteen hundred years ago promising happiness here no less than happiness hereafter. It was the pursuit of such an Ireland that later made our country worthy to be called the island of saints and scholars. It was the idea of such an Ireland - happy, vigorous, spiritual - that fired the imagination of our poets; that made successive generations of patriotic men give their lives to win religious and political liberty; and that will urge men in our own and future generations to die, if need be, so that these liberties may be preserved. One hundred years ago, the Young Irelanders, by holding up the vision of such an Ireland before the people, inspired and moved them spiritually as our people had hardly been moved since the Golden Age of Irish civilisation. Fifty years later, the founders of the Gaelic League similarly inspired and moved the people of their day. So, later, did the leaders of the Irish Volunteers. We of this time, if we have the will and active enthusiasm, have the opportunity to inspire and move our generation in like manner. We can do so by keeping this thought of a noble future for our country constantly before our eyes, ever seeking in action to bring that future into being, and ever remembering that it is for our nation as a whole that future must be sought.

This is the 'Comely Maidens dancing at the crossroads' Speech Made by DeV (That 'Comley maidens dancing at the crossroads' is not actually mentioned in it is just a silly little detail)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFfDirBE6w

I wounder what he would have made of this? :pac:

4zn76tysfajdxp

the romping of sturdy children

I get the feeling that the Catholic Church took this too literally.

pvt6zh395dqbrj

Aaaah, the sweet smell of the Ireland of which we dreamed.

How I remember dreaming of this
In my nights asleep under a bridge in Garryowen
And I watched the blue hails of restitution
Rain down upon my black soul
Oh enrapture me, and dance upon the grim moonlight
For you will not take my bones
Into the night

deise go deo

Livia Thundering Windjammer wrote: »

I get the feeling that the Catholic Church took this too literally.

You could have a point there, still, Its history now, along with DeV

Jesus Wept

No thanks.

deise go deo

The-Rigger wrote: »

No thanks.

Now, I thanked you, Feel Better?

Jesus Wept

A little, thanks.

W.Shakes-Beer

I could do with a pint of Ale and a slice of freshly baked bread, sitting in a small cottage in Mayo with the Atlantic beating at the door, the red glow of the burning peat the only light in the room.

Sweet.

Or currently, sitting in the nip on the bed with a bag of Hunky Dorys with rave tunes blaring from the pub across the road.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

You could have a point there, still, Its history now, along with DeV

Thank Christ/krishna/Buddha/Vishnu/Mohammed/Zeus


DeValera was a twat. A cunning one in fairness, but a twat nonetheless. A pawn for the catholic church to try and create a catholic state, with that even bigger twat John charlie McQuaid for whom the grave didn't come quick enough for all the human damage he caused. Corrupt too. Dig not so deep and see the familial web of influence that Cuban American prick and his lackeys had. From the (internationally illegal) Irish sweepstakes to the Irish Press. Google is your friend. Like I say the grave swallowed better than him and his way too quickly and left them to cancer in the bones of this country. Unless you're an uneducated 1950's housewife in the middle of nowhere with 5 kids, bending your knee as Gaelige to the local bishop, DeValera is about as relevant as the black death and about as useful to the Irish*. He's like a boil on a jockeys bollocks. Visible, important to note and painful, but utterly unwelcome.







* the black death had its uses to be fair. Just like twats of the title of this thread.

pvt6zh395dqbrj

Ah the delightful bewitching scent of the Ireland we knew
Like when DeV fought that man over half a rood of rock
But that rood was too much for one to bear
"Sure didn't he say so himself"
Said Blarney to Marley
When the old one died, and the rooster shot the blind man
Do not fear for my freedom
Mine is the passage of time

starbelgrade

Brightness was drenching through the branches
When she wandered again,
Turning sliver out of dark grasses
Where the skylark had lain,
And her voice coming softly over the meadow
As she repeated this curious refrain,
"change my pitch up, smack my bitch up"

smokedeels

pepperidge farm remembers

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

Thank Christ/krishna/Buddha/Vishnu/Mohammed/Zeus


DeValera was a twat. A cunning one in fairness, but a twat nonetheless. A pawn for the catholic church to try and create a catholic state, with that even bigger twat John charlie McQuaid for whom the grave didn't come quick enough for all the human damage he caused. Corrupt too. Dig not so deep and see the familial web of influence that Cuban American prick and his lackeys had. From the (internationally illegal) Irish sweepstakes to the Irish Press. Google is your friend. Like I say the grave swallowed better than him and his way too quickly and left them to cancer in the bones of this country. Unless you're an uneducated 1950's housewife in the middle of nowhere with 5 kids, bending your knee as Gaelige to the local bishop, DeValera is about as relevant as the black death and about as useful to the Irish*. He's like a boil on a jockeys bollocks. Visible, important to note and painful, but utterly unwelcome.







* the black death had its uses to be fair. Just like twats of the title of this thread.

Leave An Gheilge out of it. The whole point I was making is that the language that DeV idealized as part of the 'Ideal Ireland' today has a modern culture that he would have despised.

pvt6zh395dqbrj

Didn't those bastards tell you?
Was the call through all the town
When a man, went to the village
And the village was the mans own heart
This is what they said to me
For me, this was all unsaid

fonecrusher1

This is an expensive little hole of a country to live in. Just taxed my car for a year - 333 euro. Insurance is due in 2 months - 500 euro. Petrol is almost at 1.50e per litre, thats about 30 euro per week to keep a sh!tty little 1.4 car going.

Seriously up its own arse little country we live in. Sh!t roads, huge unemployment, crap weather. Yet its still quite expensive to live here?

cool story bro
fcuk off somewhere else then
build a bridge etc
various popular internet expressions & memes used as a platform to seem aggressive or witty...

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Leave An Gheilge out of it. The whole point I was making is that the language that DeV idealized as part of the 'Ideal Ireland' today has a modern culture that he would have despised.

Oh deise go deo I know you were talking about an Gaeilge by a circuitous means, just wanted to draw you out on it. You know. To make your point clear, kinda like your original post didn't.

So lets look at your individual demographic, shall we? Female/Male/under/over 30/parent/more than one child/Catholic/Protestant/Rural/urban/republican(with a small r)/don't care(unionists being thankfully thin on the ground). Delete as applicable.




In any case, I would say it's a good baseline for humanist morality to disavow pretty much anything that long prick espoused.

newmug

The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit – a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live. With the tidings that make such an Ireland possible, St. Patrick came to our ancestors fifteen hundred years ago promising happiness here no less than happiness hereafter. It was the pursuit of such an Ireland that later made our country worthy to be called the island of saints and scholars. It was the idea of such an Ireland - happy, vigorous, spiritual - that fired the imagination of our poets; that made successive generations of patriotic men give their lives to win religious and political liberty; and that will urge men in our own and future generations to die, if need be, so that these liberties may be preserved. One hundred years ago, the Young Irelanders, by holding up the vision of such an Ireland before the people, inspired and moved them spiritually as our people had hardly been moved since the Golden Age of Irish civilisation. Fifty years later, the founders of the Gaelic League similarly inspired and moved the people of their day. So, later, did the leaders of the Irish Volunteers. We of this time, if we have the will and active enthusiasm, have the opportunity to inspire and move our generation in like manner. We can do so by keeping this thought of a noble future for our country constantly before our eyes, ever seeking in action to bring that future into being, and ever remembering that it is for our nation as a whole that future must be sought.



If only...........

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote: »

Thank Christ/krishna/Buddha/Vishnu/Mohammed/Zeus


DeValera was a twat. A cunning one in fairness, but a twat nonetheless. A pawn for the catholic church to try and create a catholic state, with that even bigger twat John charlie McQuaid for whom the grave didn't come quick enough for all the human damage he caused. Corrupt too. Dig not so deep and see the familial web of influence that Cuban American prick and his lackeys had. From the (internationally illegal) Irish sweepstakes to the Irish Press. Google is your friend. Like I say the grave swallowed better than him and his way too quickly and left them to cancer in the bones of this country. Unless you're an uneducated 1950's housewife in the middle of nowhere with 5 kids, bending your knee as Gaelige to the local bishop, DeValera is about as relevant as the black death and about as useful to the Irish*. He's like a boil on a jockeys bollocks. Visible, important to note and painful, but utterly unwelcome.


* the black death had its uses to be fair. Just like twats of the title of this thread.

Honestly when it comes to Irish history and/or politics you have the least subjective, least informed, most patronising positions known to man.

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

Honestly when it comes to Irish history and/or politics you have the least subjective, least informed, most patronising positions known to man.

I'll take that as a compliment. EDIT not taking the piss here BTB. Like I said in the post you quoted google and libraries are your friend. Peruse both, get back to me and then accuse me of being entirely partisan.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

In any case, I would say it's a good baseline for humanist morality to disavow pretty much anything that long prick espoused.

Your claiming not to be partisan then?:rolleyes:

Wibbs

You'll note the word "entirely". Oh I know it probably makes you feel better to think I'm some orange wee free west Brit, but further from the truth you couldn't be. DeValera was useful at times, cunning a lot of times and part of our history, but if you negate the seriously deleterious effect he had on this nation then you have head up your bum to the neck or buried in the sand to the same depth.

Wibbs

OK ye wanna get into this?

Dev and the church. Are you seriously telling us that he and mcQuaid didn't cobble together the constitution and the backbone of this state to inject the church into damn near every aspect of it? Are you insane? When did we get divorce? When did we get contraception? When did we get equal rights for homosexuals(still havent)? When did we get anything approaching pro choice(Nada there)? Hey I personally have serious issues with abortion but the fact remains we were the most catholically backward state in mainstream Europe. Hell Franco's catholic Spain was more free FFS. And that boils down a lot to the long fella.

Corruption? Look up Dev and the Irish Press. Look up the connections with teh sweepstakes. Look up dev and cronyism. You really think Haughey licked this shít from a stone? Are ye that naive?

OK then my accusers. Debate me.

Wolfe Tone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isNOQ3zQ2F0

I think Dev had some very admiral traits.

Wibbs

Oh he was a clever man and a cute hoor and no mistake. No one can take those as you say admirable qualities from him. It's to what agency he put most of them that troubles me. He had the smell of a real petulant slither too. For all the rhetoric he was fully aware of the practical help he and his government and the Irish people gave to the allied war effort. Look at how many allied airmen and seamen were interned. Then look at the number of axis servicemen interned. Compare and contrast. Look at the signs writ large on the four corners of Ireland that spelled out "Eire" with a specific number under each. Look that up. There was an awful lot of flim flam and posturing going on. We were nowhere near neutral. On Churchills side too. Well he was Sir Posture of Middle Posturing.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

OK ye wanna get into this?

Dev and the church. Are you seriously telling us that he and mcQuaid didn't cobble together the constitution and the backbone of this state to inject the church into damn near every aspect of it? Are you insane? When did we get divorce? When did we get contraception? When did we get equal rights for homosexuals(still havent)? When did we get anything approaching pro choice(Nada there)? Hey I personally have serious issues with abortion but the fact remains we were the most catholically backward state in mainstream Europe. Hell Franco's catholic Spain was more free FFS. And that boils down a lot to the long fella.

Corruption? Look up Dev and the Irish Press. Look up the connections with teh sweepstakes. Look up dev and cronyism. You really think Haughey licked this shít from a stone? Are ye that naive?

OK then my accusers. Debate me.

You seam to have the wrong end of the Stick, I have no time for FF or their well documented corruption and I am not interested in defending DeV.

Wolfe Tone

So Wibbs really doesn't like Dev then? :pac:

I remember my Granny wouldn't hear a word against him.

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote: »

I'll take that as a compliment. EDIT not taking the piss here BTB. Like I said in the post you quoted google and libraries are your friend. Peruse both, get back to me and then accuse me of being entirely partisan.

Yeah I'll get right on that after I finish my mixed English/History PhD about the modern Irish period.

newmug

Wibbs wrote: »

OK ye wanna get into this?

Dev and the church. Are you seriously telling us that he and mcQuaid didn't cobble together the constitution and the backbone of this state to inject the church into damn near every aspect of it? Are you insane? When did we get divorce? When did we get contraception? When did we get equal rights for homosexuals(still havent)? When did we get anything approaching pro choice(Nada there)? Hey I personally have serious issues with abortion but the fact remains we were the most catholically backward state in mainstream Europe. Hell Franco's catholic Spain was more free FFS. And that boils down a lot to the long fella.

Corruption? Look up Dev and the Irish Press. Look up the connections with teh sweepstakes. Look up dev and cronyism. You really think Haughey licked this shít from a stone? Are ye that naive?

OK then my accusers. Debate me.

One word. Context.

As you must know, religion was a weapon used by the brits against us. If you were Cathoilc, that was reason enough to murder you. I'm not going into a history lesson for you, but seeing as Dev and his generation were still reeling from the affects of the famine (only 50 years or so earlier, where if you turned protestant, the local prod landlord would "grant" you your life by giving you food:mad:), and were still second class citizens in their own country, religious freedom was a big deal. It still is, until the GFA was signed, Cathoilcs faced discrimination in the North. This was 1998 we're talking. You have the intelligence to understand the gravity of this, I know you do.

The whole zeit-geist of Ireland at the time was rebellion, as fervent then for Catholicism to be liberated as gay rights is now. Fair play to anyone who fought for Irish freedom, all aspects of it, including religion. The Ultra-Catholic Ireland Dev masterminded worked. It was just a knee-jerk reaction to religious bigotry in the first place, its done its job, and now religious tolerance is leveling out. So stop the Dev hatred.

ballsymchugh

Wibbs wrote: »

OK ye wanna get into this?

Dev and the church. Are you seriously telling us that he and mcQuaid didn't cobble together the constitution and the backbone of this state to inject the church into damn near every aspect of it? Are you insane? When did we get divorce? When did we get contraception? When did we get equal rights for homosexuals(still havent)? When did we get anything approaching pro choice(Nada there)? Hey I personally have serious issues with abortion but the fact remains we were the most catholically backward state in mainstream Europe. Hell Franco's catholic Spain was more free FFS. And that boils down a lot to the long fella.

Corruption? Look up Dev and the Irish Press. Look up the connections with teh sweepstakes. Look up dev and cronyism. You really think Haughey licked this shít from a stone? Are ye that naive?

OK then my accusers. Debate me.

the only thing i can say is by getting the church involved in education and health, the early days of the country were saved a fortune that they just couldn't afford. unfortunately we all know what happened afterwards.

cleremy jarkson

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dev-tricked-public-into-investing-in-irish-press-file-reveals-485691.html

Some boy Dev! He wanted people to expect nothing more than frugal living..sure it's no good being rich unless everyone else is poor... otherwise you don't get to feel like you're above other people!

Wolfe Tone

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dev-tricked-public-into-investing-in-irish-press-file-reveals-485691.html

Some boy Dev! He wanted people to expect nothing more than frugal living..sure it's no good being rich unless everyone else is poor... otherwise you don't get to feel like you're above other people!

He was right in one way, we have become very materialistic

pvt6zh395dqbrj

The brits gave me a kickin
with a mighty leathered shoe
I might aswell fight a war
cos I've nothing else to do
No nothing else to do and
Nothing else to lose
I got a heart full of terror
and them Develera blues


I got them Develera blues.

cleremy jarkson

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He was right in one way, we have become very materialistic

He was materialistic himself, if it's true that he did con all those American investors out of their money. And I know he halved the Taoiseach's salary from £2500 to £1500, but that's easy to do if you're making a mint somewhere else!
Also, he liked tayto crisps so he was a hedonist like the rest of us!

edit: I'd kill for some tayto now!

aDeener

Wibbs wrote: »

Thank Christ/krishna/Buddha/Vishnu/Mohammed/Zeus


DeValera was a twat. A cunning one in fairness, but a twat nonetheless. A pawn for the catholic church to try and create a catholic state, with that even bigger twat John charlie McQuaid for whom the grave didn't come quick enough for all the human damage he caused. Corrupt too. Dig not so deep and see the familial web of influence that Cuban American prick and his lackeys had. From the (internationally illegal) Irish sweepstakes to the Irish Press. Google is your friend. Like I say the grave swallowed better than him and his way too quickly and left them to cancer in the bones of this country. Unless you're an uneducated 1950's housewife in the middle of nowhere with 5 kids, bending your knee as Gaelige to the local bishop, DeValera is about as relevant as the black death and about as useful to the Irish*. He's like a boil on a jockeys bollocks. Visible, important to note and painful, but utterly unwelcome.







* the black death had its uses to be fair. Just like twats of the title of this thread.

surely he would have made Catholicism the state religion if that was the case....

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

Yeah I'll get right on that after I finish my mixed English/History PhD about the modern Irish period.

That's an argument from authority, not an argument itself.

aDeener wrote:

surely he would have made Catholicism the state religion if that was the case....

DeValera to be fair resisted the more overtly batshít catholic pressure groups(inc McQuaid) who wanted "one true faith" into the constitution, but did put in the "special position" of same. But are you seriously suggesting it wasn't the official religion in all but name? As ballsymchugh pointed out they were massively involved in health and education. Well they pretty much ran both. Even to this day they have a large grip on education in this country. Like I pointed out for most of our independent nations history our not exactly progressive stances on divorce, contraception, homosexuality, abortion, censorship(we banned books here. The life of brian was banned FFS). That lot was almost entirely down to Catholic interference and pressure.

newmug wrote:

One word. Context.

OK. Context is rare enough when it comes to this I grant you.

As you must know, religion was a weapon used by the brits against us. If you were Cathoilc, that was reason enough to murder you. I'm not going into a history lesson for you, but seeing as Dev and his generation were still reeling from the affects of the famine (only 50 years or so earlier, where if you turned protestant, the local prod landlord would "grant" you your life by giving you food),

You are kidding? DeV reeling from the effects of the famine? The same DeV who attended Blackrock and Rockwell colleges. Oh yea, both run by catholic religious orders and with the same middle class demographic as today. Not exactly hedge schools ted. DeV though a scholarship boy could nearly be accused of being a "rugger bugger". The chances of him being murdered for his Catholicism were pretty bloody slim. BTW the soupers of which you speak of were some of the "charitable" prod organisations. They were in the minority and were roundly condemned by other Protestant charities.

and were still second class citizens in their own country, religious freedom was a big deal.

Oh right, so that's how the biggest catholic seminary in the world was founded in Maynooth in the early 19th century and with a yearly not insubstantial stipend from the government in London? Of course Catholics were second class citizens in many ways and even worse before the penal laws were repealed. That's not up for debate, but don't mistake or confuse what happened further north with what happened in the rest of the country. Nor confuse a class prejudice with a religious one. It's not that black and white. Look how the British establishment dealt with their own rural protestant peasant class over the last few centuries. They treated them with utter contempt. I'd be fairly confident in saying that if the famine that befell us had happened in Scotland or Wales or yes even a more remote non home counties part of England and had happened to their rural underclass not that much would have turned out differently. Look at workhouses and transportation, peasant revolts viciously put down. Just look at the English examples.

The whole zeit-geist of Ireland at the time was rebellion, as fervent then for Catholicism to be liberated as gay rights is now.

It really wasn't. Or not as fervent as our history books make out anyway. You speak of context and I agree, but look at the wider context of say 1916.

Noreen1

Wibbs wrote: »

DeValera was a twat. A cunning one in fairness, but a twat nonetheless.A Corrupt too. Dig not so deep and see the familial web of influence that Cuban American prick and his lackeys had. From the (internationally illegal) Irish sweepstakes to the Irish Press. Google is your friend.

Agreed. I'm not a fan of Dev. His antics in stealing from the Irish people with his Irish Press antics were sickening. Theft is theft, in my book.
It makes no difference what Nationality the thieves happen to be.

Wibbs wrote: »

Unless you're an uneducated 1950's housewife in the middle of nowhere with 5 kids, bending your knee as Gaelige to the local bishop, DeValera is about as relevant as the black death and about as useful to the Irish*. He's like a boil on a jockeys bollocks. Visible, important to note and painful, but utterly unwelcome.
* the black death had its uses to be fair. Just like twats of the title of this thread.

Now here I have an issue. If 1950s housewives were uneducated, it was through no fault of their own. As such, I find this comment to be entirely unacceptable.

As to your comment about "bending the knee as Gaeilge to the local Bishop".
Why shouldn't they speak "as Gaeilge"?

I'm unclear about your meaning re: "Bending the knee". Care to clarify?

aDeener

Wibbs wrote: »

DeValera to be fair resisted the more overtly batshít catholic pressure groups(inc McQuaid) who wanted "one true faith" into the constitution, but did put in the "special position" of same. But are you seriously suggesting it wasn't the official religion in all but name? As ballsymchugh pointed out they were massively involved in health and education. Well they pretty much ran both. Even to this day they have a large grip on education in this country. Like I pointed out for most of our independent nations history our not exactly progressive stances on divorce, contraception, homosexuality, abortion, censorship(we banned books here. The life of brian was banned FFS). That lot was almost entirely down to Catholic interference and pressure.

you claimed de valera wanted to make this country a catholic state, if he wanted to do so he would have made it the state religion. you were wrong. deal with it.

Wibbs

aDeener wrote: »

you claimed de valera wanted to make this country a catholic state, if he wanted to do so he would have made it the state religion. you were wrong. deal with it.

No I was correct. This was a catholic state. In all but name. Argue that it wasn't.

Wibbs

Noreen1 wrote: »

Agreed. I'm not a fan of Dev. His antics in stealing from the Irish people with his Irish Press antics were sickening. Theft is theft, in my book.

Yea right little nation of cronyism we were. We're not quite out of the woods yet, but far far better than we were.

It makes no difference what Nationality the thieves happen to be.

I get you alright, but for me iIt does when they claim to speak for others.

Now here I have an issue. If 1950s housewives were uneducated, it was through no fault of their own. As such, I find this comment to be entirely unacceptable.

How is it unacceptable? I never apportioned blame.

As to your comment about "bending the knee as Gaeilge to the local Bishop".
Why shouldn't they speak "as Gaeilge"?

I'm unclear about your meaning re: "Bending the knee". Care to clarify?

You know genuflecting to higher powers and all that. Seems straightforward. Good oul mealy mouthed, narrow minded, hypocritical and daft catholic Ireland. Old Ireland thankfully(for the most part).

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

You know genuflecting to higher powers and all that. Seems straightforward. Good oul mealy mouthed, narrow minded, hypocritical and daft catholic Ireland. Old Ireland thankfully(for the most part).

Yes, but why Geneflecting 'As Gaeilge'? Why did you mention that as part of the whole deal?

Speaking Irish had and has no bearing on this point.

PeterIanStaker

It's a nightmare from which some people are still trying to awake.

Latchy

There is no doubt that Dev along with his pal McQuaid had a grip on this country that Stalin would have being proud off and in regards to these two, at least Ireland has seen two major changes take place .

1. the power and influence of the Catholic church being kicked into touch were people can express themselfs freely and voice opinions without fear ( Dev and McQuaid with their small mindedness could never imagine or conceive the concept of the internet )

2. the end of FF as a major political party along with all it's cronyism,something many thought could never happen.


What's to come in the future is a whole new ball game altogether..

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, but why Geneflecting 'As Gaeilge'? Why did you mention that as part of the whole deal?

Speaking Irish had and has no bearing on this point.

I agree. The actual language itself didn't, but the culture ascribed to and surrounding it did. Constructing a picture of old/DeV stylee Ireland would have Irish as part of it. Not the languages fault BTW. Good rural catholic mammy(ex nurse) with big ankles and six kids bending her knee to the bishop as Gealige, while turning a blind eye and tugging forelocks to her new cassocked betters was a fairly big part of this country. Of course it's a stereotype, but it certainly existed. The last gasp of it I can pin down would be the moving statues nonsense in the 80's. Serious swivel eyed mouthbreathers and magical thinkers kicked off on that one. Thousands of them. That's the scary bloody part. I caught the last twitch of that old Ireland where Father Ted was more a documentary than a comedy.

aDeener

Latchy wrote: »

There is no doubt that Dev along with his pal McQuaid had a grip on this country that Stalin would have being proud off and in regards to these two, at least Ireland has seen two major changes take place .

1. the power and influence of the Catholic church being kicked into touch were people can express themselfs freely and voice opinions without fear ( Dev and McQuaid with their small mindedness and could never imagine or conceive the concept of the internet )

2. the end of FF as a major political party along with all it's cronyism,something many thought could never happen.


What's to come in the future is a whole new ball game altogether..

there is no doubt that that is complete over the top bullshit

aDeener

Wibbs wrote: »

No I was correct. This was a catholic state. In all but name. Argue that it wasn't.

so you are claiming it was a theocracy in all but name. ok.

you need to argue that it was. there are many aspects of a theocracy that was not in place - there was no state persecution of people of other faiths they had complete freedom to practice them.

Wibbs

I agree that's major hyperbole. No way we were within sniffing distance of Stalin. Not even sniffing distance of one of stalin's outposts in the middle of nowhere.

It was a squillion times more subtle(and a magnitude less psycho). That said the Catholic church was the de facto moral compass of Irish government for nigh on 50 years. They tried similar in Spain under Franco. They have always been all about control. It's a cultural thing ingrained in the religion.

Latchy

aDeener wrote: »

there is no doubt that that is complete over the top bullshit

Ok , using Stalin in the same breath as Dev and McQuaid was a bit OTT but we are talking about an Ireland that is more or less thankfully gone !

Wibbs

aDeener wrote: »

so you are claiming it was a theocracy in all but name. ok.

you need to argue that it was. there are many aspects of a theocracy that was not in place - there was no state persecution of people of other faiths they had complete freedom to practice them.

Yes and no, plus you don't have to exaggerate up to a full theocracy.

OK Let's take divorce. If you were from a faith that practiced divorce, you couldn't get one*. If you were from a faith that was OK with contraception you couldn't get it. If you were from a different faith and wanted to attend a national school. If you wanted to read a book or watch a movie that didn't offend your faith... I mean it was retarded. Book for fcuk sake. We were banning books.

That's not persecution, but it is not equality either. Not by a long shot. The translation of DeV's equality was "oh you can practice all you like, but only so long as it agrees with our(catholic) law and morality. Otherwise you can't". How is that different from a theocracy? Look at all the scandals that came out of Ireland. The vast majority were of a religious slant. Shít there was even an incident where two jehovah's witnesses were hounded outa some country town by an angry mob and the judge backed the mob. This country became a right little backward kip for a long time.






*Interestingly the C of I was also agin divorce.

fontanalis

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He was right in one way, we have become very materialistic

Greed in Ireland was'nt a new thign ushered in by the "celtic tiger"; it was always there. it just became more prevailent in recent years.
How many old people hoarded money but lived in squalor?

Noreen1

fontanalis wrote: »

Greed in Ireland was'nt a new thign ushered in by the "celtic tiger"; it was always there. it just became more prevailent in recent years.
How many old people hoarded money but lived in squalor?

True. But was that greed, or fear that the "bad old days" might come back?