Leaving cert higher maths for finance job?

derealmoister

Hey,
I want to pursue a career in finance. If I was to do ordinary level math for the leaving and get an A1, would that be as sufficent as a C in honours? I mean, if I was to do a masters in finance etc. would an employer really care if I done only ordinary level maths for leaving? How important is maths result in leaving on a CV?
Thanks

LeixlipRed

An ordinary level A1 would not be considered equivalent to a higher level C. If you really want to work in finance I'd suggest doing higher level maths as any finance degree you do in university will involve maths of higher level standard and above. It's possible to do OL for the leaving and do well in your degree of course but I'd recommend sticking with the HL.

Permabear

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Civilian_Target

Maths is pretty essential in Finance - it's rooted quite deeply in maths, any financial modelling will involve pretty substantial amounts of integration and differentiation.

If you don't like maths, its probably wise to consider something other than finance as a 3rd level subject

ray giraffe

Civilian_Target wrote: »

If you don't like maths, its probably wise to consider something other than finance as a 3rd level subject

If you are not relishing the idea of honours maths, then don't even think about finance.

However you could look into a degree in Commerce e.g. At UCD they'll take you with an A in ordinary level maths.

derealmoister

I dropped down to OL recently and am wondering could I do a masters in something like quantitative (excuse my spelling) finance after 3 or 4 years of an undergrad in commerce, and get a career in the area?

Permabear

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gerry87

Finance is mathsy, surprisingly quant finance is very mathsy...

I've been turned down for interviews because of LC results. That's after a 1h economics degree and a 1h finance masters, so leaving results can matter.

Now that's extreme and those places just have their first cut criteria since they get so many applications.

That said, the consideration is less whether employers will care or not, but whether you can handle it or not, if you don't actually like maths then you probably won't like finance. If you do like maths then you should enjoy putting enough work in to get a good mark.

So what's the actual reason you dropped to pass?

graduate

You'd have to question why a person interested in a career involving quant would want to drop down to pass maths. It is not a rational choice, not only will people question it later on but it suggests that you aren't interested.

Doing Honours maths is the best thing anyone can do, there are loads of interesting careers in finance, business analytics etc and not enough people to fill these jobs.

LeixlipRed

I'd imagine it's because the OP doesn't fully understand what a quants job would involve. In fairness, the OP is probably quite young and a lot of us didn't know what we wanted to do or much about what we wanted to do at that age.

Professor_Fink

derealmoister wrote: »

Hey,
I want to pursue a career in finance.

...

I mean, if I was to do a masters in finance etc. would an employer really care if I done only ordinary level maths for leaving? How important is maths result in leaving on a CV?

I'm not quite sure what area you mean in finance, as there are several different paths, but maths is generally considered quite important. For jobs in quantitative finance the situation is far more grim for you. Top firms recruit quants almost exclusively with PhDs in Maths and Theoretical Physics (and even then, they often concentrate on top tier universities). Any less and you are going to find it rough. Take pass maths and you will find it impossible.

Do you really need a PhD to do the maths involved? No, but the reality is that the employers in the area pay sufficiently (for London often GBP 60k+ plus bonus) that the jobs market is extremely competitive and they can insist on any level of qualification and still find applicants meeting these criteria.

That said, if you are considering pass maths, then quant finance really isn't the career for you anyway. It is a job where pretty much all your time will be taken up with either maths or coding.

POSSY

derealmoister wrote: »

I dropped down to OL recently and am wondering could I do a masters in something like quantitative (excuse my spelling) finance after 3 or 4 years of an undergrad in commerce, and get a career in the area?

Not to sound mean, but if your not interested or skilled in Maths you really shouldn't even consider doing a MSc in Quantitative Finance (such as the Smurfit course or the MSc Industrial and Financial Mathematics in DCU), and as far as I know admission into those courses requires a strong quantitative background such as Engineering, Actuary, Statistics, although I do know of past students who were admitted based on Economics and Finance/Commerce like courses, but those people had chosen quantitative heavy electives throughout thier undergraduate degree. You should know also most, if not all, quant jobs will require doing a PhD in a quantitative subject.

However, if it is a case that you would like to work in a high level position in Finance, for example in an Investment Bank you could do an economics or Finance undergraduate degree and then a MSc in Finance, such as the aptly named MSc Finance in Smurfit. While that course does contain you to undertake quantitative subjects, they are not too challenging, however you should know the graduate recruitment application process for Investment banks are designed in such a way that penalizes people of a weak mathematical aptitude.

If you really want to work as a quant you really need to be good at mathematics, and if not good at mathematics you better be great at computer programming!!!

LeixlipRed

The DCU course you mention is a joke, I'd advise anyone against doing it, you wouldn't need a background in much to do well or be completely uninspired by it.

POSSY

I would agree that the MSc Industrial and Financial Maths course in DCU is not particularly hard, in fact I would even go as far as to argue that the final year of the Financial and Actuarial Mathematics undergraduate degree is probably harder, depending on the options chosen in the undergraduate degree.

LeixlipRed

The fact they can get away with calling it a MSc is a joke really. Not one single dedicated masters level module. Essentially a final year undergrad course.

derealmoister

I dropped down to pass as I already had 6 strong honours subjects, and failed one maths summer test in 5th year as I didn't do enough study.. I got 39%. I like maths and in fact it was one of my favourite subjects but I found the workload hard and had to make a decision to drop it due to pressure for points... I hope I won't come to regret that decision...

LeixlipRed

Well if you want to go into Finance I would suggest reversing the decision and dropping to pass in another subject.

Professor_Fink

derealmoister wrote: »

I like maths and in fact it was one of my favourite subjects but I found the workload hard and had to make a decision to drop it due to pressure for points...

I'm not sure if you realise it, but if you are thinking of quant jobs, the workload and pressure will both be enormous (way way beyond anything you have experienced at school).

andrew

I think, given you're only doing the leaving cert, that it's probably a bit early to know that you want to do a Masters in Quantitative finance, so it's good to keep your options open. I can see why you dropped down; keeping up maths, aside from possibly leading to a bad maths result, might drag other subjects down, and the only thing that matters in the LC is the points that you get. So my suggestion would be to do some sort of Economics/Undergrad course which doesn't require higher maths. Take as many quantitative modules as you can within that course, and then if you like them and do well in them, apply for a Quantitative finance Masters.

This advice is only coming as someone who's currently in (3rd year) undergrad, in a course which didn't require higher maths, but which offers (in 3rd and 4th year) quantitative modules in econometrics, mathematical economics and quants which are also taken by students doing Maths & Economics. As such I do not know whether these modules are sufficient for entry into a quantitative finance Msc. However, even if such modules aren't sufficient, such courses might be of interest to you given you like maths and finance and would like to pursue a related masters.

Fremen

andrew wrote: »

... the only thing that matters in the LC is the points that you get.
.

I disagree. There are two things you need from the leaving cert cycle. You need sufficient points to get the course you want, and you need to build up some basic competence in any subject that will be relevant to your field.

I wouldn't recommend that a student take up a course in journalism if they were struggling to write short essays in English class. Likewise, if you're struggling in maths and you want to take an intensely mathematical course, you need to work harder or revise your goals.

andrew

Fremen wrote: »

I disagree. There are two things you need from the leaving cert cycle. You need sufficient points to get the course you want, and you need to build up some basic competence in any subject that will be relevant to your field.

I wouldn't recommend that a student take up a course in journalism if they were struggling to write short essays in English class. Likewise, if you're struggling in maths and you want to take an intensely mathematical course, you need to work harder or revise your goals.

I meant in a real sense. As in, he's struggling with maths now in the context of the leaving cert and points pressure. If he doesn't even get the points to do a mathsy course, then he'll never even get the chance to try out a maths based course, which he may end up doing alright in. Personally, I dropped down to pass maths because it was a choice between either doing honors irish or honours maths; the maths teacher wasn't very good, and I knew I could get more points doing hons Irish and dropping down in maths. I'm not particularly bad at maths; it was just a strategic decision. I just get the impression that had I come here and said I wanted to do economics but had dropped down to pass, I would've been told to go back to honours because economics is mathsy, and I know that in my case at least, that would've been the wrong decision to make. That said, I'm not aiming to do a quantitative finance Msc or anything, so I recognise that my case is slightly different.

ucdperson

For what it is worth, the application form for the UCD MSc in Business Analytics asks for your Leaving Cert grade and we certainly look at it. You'd need an exceptional performance afterwards to overcome a choice to do Pass maths.

humbert

I don't want to be harsh but I strongly feel you don't understand your situation and that it could have a very detrimental effect on your career prospects.

All people doing Quantitative Finance would have found LC maths quite easy and certainly one of the most reliable subject to get points from. They may not all have gotten A1s or even As but I would be absolutely shocked if a single person in that field took ordinary level maths.

Because college degrees are getting much much easier to pass more employers are asking to see LC results as an assessment of basic mathematical ability.

I would suspect a mathematical finance job will be difficult for you but if it's what you really want then of course you should try. To that end I think you should either keep HL maths or resign yourself to a different course.

graduate

All people doing Quantitative Finance would have found LC maths quite easy and certainly one of the most reliable subject to get points from. They may not all have gotten A1s or even As but I would be absolutely shocked if a single person in that field took ordinary level maths.

Exactly. A "quant" person would prefer maths to some other subject and wouldn't contemplate doing pass maths. Honours maths is beneficial to all parts of business, but analytics and quant finance need it greatly.

derealmoister

If I work hard at maths at college and do well in all mathematically-related modules in lets say, a business/commerce degree then do you think the decision to do pass maths would be negated?

ulinbac

Hi OP,

Honours maths is REALLY important if you want to go into finance. When your applying for jobs, anything less than a B3 in honours maths and your in going to find it difficult.

I did a BSc. in maths and economics (maths and economics were my favourite subjects) and there is A LOT of probability, calculus and integration. You need to know your statistics. If you do a masters is quant maths know that the market is really tough at present (but will have changed a lot by the time you finish). The way the majority of us see it atm (in the course, lecturers and previous work-mates in front office positions) is that for an analyst/quant job your going to need a masters minimum, unless you go to LSE, Warwick etc. and/or a PhD. for quant roles in the major banks (from top rated universities). Potentially you could be 26/7 when leaving college.

Also, if you want world class experience in Finance you will need to go to at least London, if not New York or Asia (Shanghai, Singapore, HK etc.). The majority of front office roles are 7am-7pm aswell, so be prepared for it when the time comes!!! I'm not trying to scare you but thats the reality.

If you are still serious about finance when your doing the LC, do not do business studies. All my friends and family members who have done it (and that do not want to be accountants) say they regret it. In the finance (front/upper middle office) roles it is not worth much. I have friends who have 1:1's in the economics and finance major in business and they ended up in fund accountancy (which they hate). I am not bashing business studies, it is just that nearly every college has a business degree so there is nothing unique about it.

If you want any other details PM me, I have loads on careers, type of work etc. that quants do cause looking for a job myself atm for when I finish.

Hope this helps

Forgot to mention, Quant roles are very computer based now, so you DEFINITELY, need a course that has computer programming like Java, VBA, Matlab, and the main one C++!!!!! If you have none of these after a masters no IB will even respond to your application.

POSSY

humbert wrote: »

I don't want to be harsh but I strongly feel you don't understand your situation and that it could have a very detrimental effect on your career prospects.

All people doing Quantitative Finance would have found LC maths quite easy and certainly one of the most reliable subject to get points from. They may not all have gotten A1s or even As but I would be absolutely shocked if a single person in that field took ordinary level maths.

Because college degrees are getting much much easier to pass more employers are asking to see LC results as an assessment of basic mathematical ability.

I would suspect a mathematical finance job will be difficult for you but if it's what you really want then of course you should try. To that end I think you should either keep HL maths or resign yourself to a different course.

In all reality this post sums it up. For the area you speak about wanting to work in then maths ability is the most basic skill you will need, and without theres no point (imho) trying to enter the profession. You'll need probability, calculus, analysis to advanced levels, linear algebra etc etc etc an the fact is if you don't see maths as your strongest subject then you really should look elsewhere for a career.

gerry87

What undergrad are you considering? What other subjects do you like? It might be the case that you don't need high points to get into your subject.

The easiest way to get into quant finance would be with a physics or engineering undergrad. For example physics/theoretical physics in UCD was 435 points last year and entry requirements are a B3 in Ordinary or D3 in higher. That could be a way around. But it's back to whether you think you can handle it as this would be a very mathsy course.

Where did this interest in quant finance come from? It's unusual for a LC student to know what subject they want to do, let alone specialisation - unless the decision is being guided by a parent or some other source. Not many LC students would know quant finance even exists, let alone what its all about.

graduate

Not many LC students would know quant finance even exists, let alone what its all about.

Alas, many graduates of quantitative disciplines, never mind LC students, have little appreciation of the range of quantitative applications in business. Not only those in finance, but all of the business analytics, management science, logistics, business intelligence, statistics etc. If you have maths and programming you'll do well even in the present conditions.

COUCH WARRIOR

derealmoister wrote: »

If I work hard at maths at college and do well in all mathematically-related modules in lets say, a business/commerce degree then do you think the decision to do pass maths would be negated?

I think if you're talking about working really hard at maths then I'd advise away from a maths orientated area. I note from an earlier post that you dropped maths to optimise points, but you'd really need to be in the space where maths was one of your out performing subjects on a points return vs time input criteria. In short maths should be easy for you.

srsly78

The most common qualification quants have is actually Physics. As other people said, the job involves maths+programming in varying amounts .

If you did manage to land an interview with some of the big banks note that they ask for a _full_ academic transcript. Yes, even your LC+JC results. They require this even from PhD applicants!!

Regarding the ops interest, I am gonna take a wild guess and say they looked at some kind of salary scale, then decided to pursue the career at the top of the list Not gonna happen with pass maths buddy.

LeixlipRed

Lads, less of the sly digs please. Before I start getting digs in about people in that line of work

And on second thought, thread closed, we've had enough advice.