Driving without insurance

thebigbiffo

On behalf of a mate who's a bit worried...

He was stopped at the weekend and had an out of date insurance disc on the car, it wasn't taxed either - the Guard was good enough to let him on but he has to produce both certs within 10 days...fair enough. but he wasn't insured - monumentally stupid of course.

Of course he's gone and insured it straight away and is getting the tax aswell and will produce them. will the Guard be checking the dates and so on to ensure he was insured? I would assume so...but i've had to produce stuff before it looks to me like a lot of the time it's just noting the policy, the tax disc etc and dates aren't really a factor.

so if he's brought to court, what kind of punishment should he expect for the offence. it's generally a fine and penalty points for first offence on non-insurance yeah?

kopfan77

thebigbiffo wrote: »

On behalf of a mate who's a bit worried...

He was stopped at the weekend and had an out of date insurance disc on the car, it wasn't taxed either - the Guard was good enough to let him on but he has to produce both certs within 10 days...fair enough. but he wasn't insured - monumentally stupid of course.

Of course he's gone and insured it straight away and is getting the tax aswell and will produce them. will the Guard be checking the dates and so on to ensure he was insured? I would assume so...but i've had to produce stuff before it looks to me like a lot of the time it's just noting the policy, the tax disc etc and dates aren't really a factor.

so if he's brought to court, what kind of punishment should he expect for the offence. it's generally a fine and penalty points for first offence or non-insurance yeah?

I cant say for definite on what punishment (my thoughts would be fine&points if first offence)....but I would say definitely he should expect to be summonsed

thebigbiffo

yeah i would have thought fine and point - wondering what the average sort of fine for a first offence like this is though if anyone has had the experience of it.

i'm telling him to hold out hope though of not being summonsed - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the Guard he produces the docs to would just note reciept of them being in order and that's it!!

MagicSean

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yeah i would have thought fine and point - wondering what the average sort of fine for a first offence like this is though if anyone has had the experience of it.

i'm telling him to hold out hope though of not being summonsed - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the Guard he produces the docs to would just note reciept of them being in order and that's it!!

The dates are noted on the system. Usual punishment is a big fine and if he has previous road traffic convictions he may also get a ban.

coylemj

thebigbiffo wrote: »

will the Guard be checking the dates and so on to ensure he was insured? I would assume so...but i've had to produce stuff before it looks to me like a lot of the time it's just noting the policy, the tax disc etc and dates aren't really a factor.

Completely not true, that's stretching an urban myth just a bit too far. When you produce in the station the start and end dates of the policy are written in the book or recorded on Pulse, whichever. When the Garda who stopped you your friend checks to see if the documents were produced, he will make it his business to find out the dates of the policy and it will be abundantly clear that you your friend wasn't covered so you he can expect a summons at some stage.

Reality Check: if your assumption was correct then nobody would bothering insuring or taxing their car until they were stopped by the Gardai.

Contra Proferentem

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yeah i would have thought fine and point - wondering what the average sort of fine for a first offence like this is though if anyone has had the experience of it.

i'm telling him to hold out hope though of not being summonsed - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the Guard he produces the docs to would just note reciept of them being in order and that's it!!

You seem to underestimate the ability of those who enforce the law. I'm quite certain that the details of the encounter would be recorded by the Garda in question for follow-up in the unfortunate event that your friend overlooked his obligation to provide proof of insurance.

As I understand it, for a first offence of driving without insurance, in exceptional cases the court may decide not to impose a disqualification or to impose a period of disqualification of less than a year. If the court decides not to impose a disqualification, the person convicted of driving without insurance will incur 5 penalty points on their licence record in addition to any other penalty imposed by the court

YoureSoVain

I'd be very keen to hear the outcome of this. If it was me I'd be very, very worried

thebigbiffo

coylemj wrote: »

Completely not true, that's stretching an urban myth just a bit too far. When you produce in the station the start and end dates of the policy are written in the book or recorded on Pulse, whichever. When the Garda who stopped you your friend checks to see if the documents were produced, he will make it his business to find out the dates of the policy and it will be abundantly clear that you your friend wasn't covered so you he can expect a summons at some stage.

Reality Check: if your assumption was correct then nobody would bothering insuring or taxing their car until they were stopped by the Gardai.

look i was just throwing it out there about the possibility that it may not be meticulously noted. i myself have been stopped without tax before and asked to produce it, i didn't and no summons arrived but on another occasion i was 3 days late producing the documents only for a summons to arrive and my having to appear in court to have it struck off. now i am aware driving without insurance is a more serious offence but this is a discussion - and that was part of it.

on another note, is it really nessesary to be so condesending? you have no idea whether i am talking about myself or my friend sitting beside me. i started a thread to discuss a subject and it's that kind of unhelpful attitude that turns people off joining and taking part in what is 99% of the time a great community.

Kristopherus

Well if you are inferring that it could be yourself that you are talking about. do you not think you are being somewhat of a smart-ass coming on here and looking for advice. The book should be thrown at whoever you are talking about for having no insurance and costing the rest of us extra on our premiums:mad:

thebigbiffo

Contra Proferentem wrote: »

You seem to underestimate the ability of those who enforce the law. I'm quite certain that the details of the encounter would be recorded by the Garda in question for follow-up in the unfortunate event that your friend overlooked his obligation to provide proof of insurance.

As I understand it, for a first offence of driving without insurance, in exceptional cases the court may decide not to impose a disqualification or to impose a period of disqualification of less than a year. If the court decides not to impose a disqualification, the person convicted of driving without insurance will incur 5 penalty points on their licence record in addition to any other penalty imposed by the court

he said the guard was a very nice lady who asked him at one stage which she would like him offence he would prefered to be wrote up for - non display of tax or insurance...he went for tax! as noted above, she did tell him to produce both. tbf - she could have impounded the car. so i'm just wondering if what she meant by this was that she'll be noting on pulse or whatever the tax as the offence thereby putting more focus on that and for the insurance details simply to be noted as in order when produced...

for the other poster - it is indeed a serious offence but my guess is a couple of hundred fine and 5 points if it reaches court. if it was a second or third offence, it'd be very very bad...at the moment it's just bad.

thebigbiffo

Kristopherus wrote: »

Well if you are inferring that it could be yourself that you are talking about. do you not think you are being somewhat of a smart-ass coming on here and looking for advice. The book should be thrown at whoever you are talking about for having no insurance and costing the rest of us extra on our premiums:mad:

this is the legal forum, it's the judgement forum you're looking for...

i'm just trying to set my mates mind at rest that his stupidity wont cost him a year off the road and the top level €5000 fine. wanted to get an idea of whats actually happening in the courts for this offence.

if he'd of crashed into someone he may be accused of costing you extra through the compensation fund that insurers pay into - so with that in mind i call shenanigans on your part for the lofty position that my mate's cost you money.

tricky D

http://www.traceysolicitors.ie/penalty-points.html

# Driving without insurance is generally punishable by a fine of up to €2,500, disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and, at the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.

# In the case of a first offence of driving without insurance, the court may decide in special cases not to impose a period of disqualification or to impose a period of disqualification of less than a year. Where the court decides not to impose a disqualification, drivers convicted of a first offence of driving without insurance will incur 5 penalty points on their licence record in addition to any other penalty imposed by the court

Quite possible to get done for:

• non-display of valid insurance
• no insurance
• non-display of valid tax disc
• no tax

lucky not to have been left on the side of the road

clancy wiggum

is driving without insurance a criminal offence or is it just a road traffic offence? I am just wondering if its possible to get a conviction for it....

coylemj

Every conviction under the Road Traffic Acts is a criminal conviction. That includes convictions in the District Court for parking offences though getting a parking ticket and paying it does not represent a conviction.

clancy wiggum

so is that to say if someone is banned from driving for being "DUI" or having no insurance that they have a criminal conviction? and would have problems when applying for jobs, visas etc

234

Every offence is a criminal offence. Every conviction is a criminal conviction.

thebigbiffo

tricky D wrote: »

http://www.traceysolicitors.ie/penalty-points.html

# Driving without insurance is generally punishable by a fine of up to €2,500, disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and, at the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.

# In the case of a first offence of driving without insurance, the court may decide in special cases not to impose a period of disqualification or to impose a period of disqualification of less than a year. Where the court decides not to impose a disqualification, drivers convicted of a first offence of driving without insurance will incur 5 penalty points on their licence record in addition to any other penalty imposed by the court

Quite possible to get done for:

• non-display of valid insurance
• no insurance
• non-display of valid tax disc
• no tax

lucky not to have been left on the side of the road

yes that's the full extent of the law alright - and as said above the garda was sound not to have lifted the car...

however, does nobody out there know what in general the fine is for a first offence - i'm guessing somewhere between 200-400? i do not think first offences ever receive a ban, anyone tell me i'm wrong?

blueythebear

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yes that's the full extent of the law alright - and as said above the garda was sound not to have lifted the car...

however, does nobody out there know what in general the fine is for a first offence - i'm guessing somewhere between 200-400? i do not think first offences ever receive a ban, anyone tell me i'm wrong?

Driving without insurance is treated very seriously as it should be. The fine would be more than €200 to €400 but I'm not sure on the amount. I believe it's more.

It should be noted that a driving ban is a consequence of the conviction and it is only in special cases that a judge will specifically state that a ban should not be imposed.

He will be summonsed for other offences too such as non-display of insurance cert and failure to produce same so expect that to bump the fine up.

If I was your mate, I'd really be getting a solicitor for this one.

bath handle

A visit to the local District Court criminal cases are being processed will quickly reveal the local Djs attitude and typical fine level. I know of one Dj who fines 2K.

Reloc8

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yes that's the full extent of the law alright - and as said above the garda was sound not to have lifted the car...

however, does nobody out there know what in general the fine is for a first offence - i'm guessing somewhere between 200-400? i do not think first offences ever receive a ban, anyone tell me i'm wrong?

First offences of driving without insurance where a person has no similar convictions do not very often result in a ban, subject to the manner of driving and the reason why there was no insurance, and the attitude of the defendant (i.e. make sure you turn up, explain yourself, say sorry).

That said, where a judge exercises a discretion not to disqualify the fine is generally higher and is more likely in Dublin to be in the 800 to 1000 bracket.

thebigbiffo

Reloc8 wrote: »

First offences of driving without insurance where a person has no similar convictions do not very often result in a ban, subject to the manner of driving and the reason why there was no insurance, and the attitude of the defendant (i.e. make sure you turn up, explain yourself, say sorry).

That said, where a judge exercises a discretion not to disqualify the fine is generally higher and is more likely in Dublin to be in the 800 to 1000 bracket.

a wonderfully reasoned response, +1!

although the fine is higher than i would have thought it seems about right. moral of thread:

NEVER DRIVE WITHOUT INSURANCE!

apart from the fact it's dangerous and could ruin your life, you will get caught and it's not the kind of money you want to drop for the sake of what normally breaks down to a few quid a month.

tricky D

tricky D wrote: »

Quite possible to get done for:

• non-display of valid insurance

Hope that doesnt apply on a new car waiting for disc in the post

Our man in Havana

bluewolf wrote: »

Hope that doesnt apply on a new car waiting for disc in the post

There is an exemption for the first 10 days that a policy is in force for.

FreudianSlippers

tricky D wrote: »

http://www.traceysolicitors.ie/penalty-points.html

# Driving without insurance is generally punishable by a fine of up to €2,500, disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and, at the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.

# In the case of a first offence of driving without insurance, the court may decide in special cases not to impose a period of disqualification or to impose a period of disqualification of less than a year. Where the court decides not to impose a disqualification, drivers convicted of a first offence of driving without insurance will incur 5 penalty points on their licence record in addition to any other penalty imposed by the court

Quite possible to get done for:

• non-display of valid insurance
• no insurance
• non-display of valid tax disc
• no tax

lucky not to have been left on the side of the road

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what these "special circumstances" are to "not to impose a period of disqualification" for first offence of driving without insurance? I'd imagine it's just how the Judge feels on the day, or is there actual criteria or case law surrounding this area?

Our man in Havana

It is purely at the judges discretion.

MagicSean

I only ever remember a ban not being given when the accused has a good reason. Something along the lines of a refused payment or misplaced renewal or something like that or the always popular "My wife/husband/father/mother usually deals with that".

FreudianSlippers

I know in England they have "special reasons" outlined in case law and legislation (I think):

1) it must be a mitigating or extenuating circumstance;
2) it must not amount in law to a defence to the charge;
3) it must be directly connected with the commission of the offence;
4) it must be a matter that the court ought properly to take into consideration when imposing punishment.

So being mislead by the insurance company that you have insurance, a husband teaching a wife to drive during the day, slowly and on empty roads and where the policy is not renewed due to oversight but the insurance company would still honour the claim are all considered "special reasons" in England.
Conversely, where a man built a motorcycle and "tested" it out by driving it around the block once was purposely in violation of the law and the court would not accept his "testing" to be a "special reason".

These may be persuasive in this jurisdiction (or not as the case may be), but there doesn't appear to be any case law that I can find from Ireland that deals with these "special reasons".

thebigbiffo

i'm of the opinion it's basically down to whether you show genuine remorse for the incident and it's your first offence. like most other first offences and indeed some repeat offences, the judge wants to get the impression that it was a genuine mistake or an uncharactistic loss of good judgement and you have been freaked out/punished sufficiently by a fine that you will avoid doing it again.

in short - act like you dont give a f'uck about the court and make no attempt to show remorse for your actions first time out and you'll get a ban.

FreudianSlippers

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'm of the opinion it's basically down to whether you show genuine remorse for the incident and it's your first offence. like most other first offences and indeed some repeat offences, the judge wants to get the impression that it was a genuine mistake or an uncharactistic loss of good judgement and you have been freaked out/punished sufficiently by a fine that you will avoid doing it again.

in short - act like you dont give a f'uck about the court and make no attempt to show remorse for your actions first time out and you'll get a ban.

But it seems as though s.26(5) would tend to state that the Judge must impose that ban even on a first offence unless "special circumstances" are shown and those said circumstances ought to be included in the judgment.

nimus

I have firsthand experience in this area...in May 2008 I was working in the UK and based there most of the time so didn't have a car here. I was home for a weekend and borrowed my boyfriends car. I knew he was strapped for cash at the time but he didn't tell me that his insurance direct debit hadn't been paid for 3 months and the insurance was cancelled. Anyway, I got stopped by the guards. I assumed I was insured but wasn't and the tax was out by nine weeks. He took the car there and then. I had to then help my boyfriend sort out the tax and insurance and nct and pay the impound fee. I went to see the guard, produced all docs (including managing to get an nct booking) and he was nice to me about it all. Got the car back and he said he was preparing a file for the DPP.

In November 2009 there was a knock on the door one evening and the local guard was there with 6 summons for me - insurance, tax and NCT. Even though the car was not mine it was my responsibility to ensure everything was in order before I drove. I got a solicitor, went to court, explained to the judge that it was not my car and that my boyfriend had exceptional circumstances at the time it happened, I needed to drive to work etc. The judge responded with "disqualified for one year, licence endorsed, fine of 750 for no insurance, 450 for no tax and i think 150 for no nct (it was 1350 altogether).

I had been driving for 14 years and had never had a speeding ticket or parking ticket etc and genuinely did need my car to get to work as i live in the country and do not have public transport to rely on. The guard was in court and said I cooperated with him on the day. I had no convictions and had never been in trouble for anything.

Don't ever think you will just get a wrap on the knuckles!!!

igwe

Please i need an advice for a friend, on Saturday my friend was driving and had a bit of drink on him, while he was driving few blocks from his house he got stopped by the garda and was breathalysed. He failed and was brought to the police station for full breathalsyed test. He was 12mg and the legal limit is 9. the garda told him he his 3 months disqualified and 300euro fine and was told to provide his liecense and insurance with in 10days but he wont be summoned to court. The problem is that he thought he was insured in his wife car which he was driving at the time and called the insurance company to confirm the next 2days (monday). The insurance said no he was not so he added his name as a name driver to his wife on a monday. Please i will like to know if his goes to station with his licences and his wife insurance certificate will he still be summoned for driving without insurance.

Procrastastudy

... never mind

Milk & Honey

igwe wrote: »

Please i need an advice for a friend, on Saturday my friend was driving and had a bit of drink on him, while he was driving few blocks from his house he got stopped by the garda and was breathalysed. He failed and was brought to the police station for full breathalsyed test. He was 12mg and the legal limit is 9. the garda told him he his 3 months disqualified and 300euro fine and was told to provide his liecense and insurance with in 10days but he wont be summoned to court. The problem is that he thought he was insured in his wife car which he was driving at the time and called the insurance company to confirm the next 2days (monday). The insurance said no he was not so he added his name as a name driver to his wife on a monday. Please i will like to know if his goes to station with his licences and his wife insurance certificate will he still be summoned for driving without insurance.

He might well be. He might have a defence if he is summonsed. There is a case going through about it at the moment. He will have to show the insurance cert that was operative on the day he was stopped. The guards are well used to people arranging insurance after they have been stopped and will see through it if he tries to fool them.

igwe

Do u think the garda will send the case to court for summon or he will drop the case? since his just a name drive.

igwe

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

... never mind

Please u said never mind, why?

Milk & Honey

igwe wrote: »

Do u think the garda will send the case to court for summon or he will drop the case? since his just a name drive.

He wasn't a name driver when he was stopped. The guard will likely have a summons issued.

igwe

Milk & Honey wrote: »

He wasn't a name driver when he was stopped. The guard will likely have a summons issued.

Thanks for the information, please do u know the kind of convictions he will get?

Procrastastudy

igwe wrote: »

Please u said never mind, why?

Because I was giving out about how you posted - I had to read it three times to make any sense of it. Then I remembered it wasn't my place to do so sorry. But having said that you may get more responces if you use full words and sentances. Paragraphs are also useful.

M&H seems to have not had the same issue so eitherway I thought I'd explain myself. The prison forum is giving me a lot of giggles but also freaking me out a bit. :P

coylemj

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Because I was giving out about how you posted - I had to read it three times to make any sense of it. Then I remembered it wasn't my place to do so sorry. But having said that you may get more responces if you use full words and sentances. Paragraphs are also useful.

M&H seems to have not had the same issue so eitherway I thought I'd explain myself. The prison forum is giving me a lot of giggles but also freaking me out a bit. :P

Spelling and grammar are not supposed to be legitimate targets for criticism but as you feel it ok to have a go at that guy, can I point out how you could improve your posts by better spelling......

Sentences, not sentances

Responses, not responces

Procrastastudy

I absolutely agree - I did apologise and do again especially given my inability to spell, poor use of grammar and weird sentences that I tend to use.

theAwakening

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what these "special circumstances" are to "not to impose a period of disqualification" for first offence of driving without insurance? I'd imagine it's just how the Judge feels on the day, or is there actual criteria or case law surrounding this area?

it appears that the second schedule within the 2010 act now provides for a consequential disqualification order for this offence??

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0065.html#sec65

similarly it upholds the 1961 act's previous requirement that a second or subsequent conviction for no NCT within a three year period carries a consequential disqualification. i have never seen that applied in the district courts.

Zambia

The whole way its down is stupid its long overdue a Rd think.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Zambia wrote: »

The whole way its down is stupid its long overdue a Rd think.

Just out of interest, what would you suggest?

Milk & Honey

igwe wrote: »

Thanks for the information, please do u know the kind of convictions he will get?

Just because he is summonsed does not mean he will be convicted. Properly defended he might get off.
If he is convicted it will be the same as any other conviction.

Zambia

Colby Warm Puffin wrote: »

Just out of interest, what would you suggest?

The state and the insurance industry provide the Gardai with the option to check a drivers Insurance status by roadside.

It cant be that hard in todays modern age. All the data is on various insurance company databases they should have a method of providing the state with the basic details by licence or registration.

Example 1

Request insured people insured on 99 D 12345

Insured on Toyota Sedan Reg 99 D 12345 expires 1/1/13

Response Persons insured = John Smith 1/1/1960 Lic 12345678
Jane Smith 1/1/1961 Lic 98765432

Example 2

Request insured vehicles on Licence 12345678

Licenced to drive Vehicle =
99 D 12345 exp 1/1/13
88 D 54321 exp 2/2/13

or

Licenced to drive Vehicle = Open Drive any registered vehicle type car

Procrastastudy

I have to admit coming from the UK - I thought the Irish solution of - a bit of paper stuck on the window - quite a good idea. It works for a tax disc. I realise that with monthly instalments etc. it has gained some holes. That could be fairly easily changed by insurance companies essentially doing a personal loan rather than month by month insurance and ruining people's credit that don't pay up and not offering instalments to people that try and stiff them.

A database system like the one suggested is nice - but everyone knows what government procurement is like - it will end up costing millions and won't work correctly.

Milk & Honey

Zambia wrote: »

The state and the insurance industry provide the Gardai with the option to check a drivers Insurance status by roadside.

It cant be that hard in todays modern age. All the data is on various insurance company databases they should have a method of providing the state with the basic details by licence or registration.

Example 1

Request insured people insured on 99 D 12345

Insured on Toyota Sedan Reg 99 D 12345 expires 1/1/13

Response Persons insured = John Smith 1/1/1960 Lic 12345678
Jane Smith 1/1/1961 Lic 98765432

Example 2

Request insured vehicles on Licence 12345678

That wouldn't work. Suppose I am driving 99 D 12345 but I have a policy which authorises me to drive 88 D 54321 and any car I do not own. I would be covered but there is no way the guard could find out without asking me to produce my insurance cert.

Zambia

Milk & Honey wrote: »

That wouldn't work. Suppose I am driving 99 D 12345 but I have a policy which authorises me to drive 88 D 54321 and any car I do not own. I would be covered but there is no way the guard could find out without asking me to produce my insurance cert.

That would be covered under example 2 which I have expanded.

Zambia

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

A database system like the one suggested is nice - but everyone knows what government procurement is like - it will end up costing millions and won't work correctly.

Sorry this is not a reason. The fact is we(well you) should demand a level of competence from your government departments.

Besides the whole thing just needs a IT firm to run it and Legislation to tow the company's into line..

odds_on

Zambia wrote: »

The state and the insurance industry provide the Gardai with the option to check a drivers Insurance status by roadside.

It cant be that hard in todays modern age. All the data is on various insurance company databases they should have a method of providing the state with the basic details by licence or registration.

Example 1

Request insured people insured on 99 D 12345

Insured on Toyota Sedan Reg 99 D 12345 expires 1/1/13

Response Persons insured = John Smith 1/1/1960 Lic 12345678
Jane Smith 1/1/1961 Lic 98765432

Example 2

Request insured vehicles on Licence 12345678

Licenced to drive Vehicle =
99 D 12345 exp 1/1/13
88 D 54321 exp 2/2/13

or

Licenced to drive Vehicle = Open Drive any registered vehicle type car

Probably would contravene the Data Protection Act!!!!!

Procrastastudy

While I don't know if I agree for the reasons I mentioned; the system Zambia has outlined works in the UK. ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) Cameras on Motorways and in Traffic Cars catch people all the time. The police will also phone up an insurance company by the side of the road if its a situation that the driver is in a car that is not his.

I think the biggest issue would be the extra work generated for the Gardai. Traffic cops are so laid back they're horizontal in comparison to their UK counterparts. To be fair we don't seem to have as many accidents as the UK so thats not necessarily a criticism.