12-16 year olds hanging outside shop

kevin99

Can someone explain why it is that 12 -16 year olds congregate outside local shops?
Near where I live there is a newsagents, dry cleaners and off licence and at weekends up to 30 teenagers meet up, play footie in the public car park, scream at each other and generally cause a nuisence.
I know the shop keeper moves them on from outside his premises and they give him cheek.
There is a local public park within 300 yards but they couldn't be bothered going there.
Instead, they make everyone's life a misery.
They also play 'nick nack' on people's front doors and sit on people's front garden walls.
Personally, I have moved them on from outside my home. And other houseowners have done likewise.
I've witnessed situations where customers have had to battle through the throngs of kids to access shops etc; where footballs have banged off car tops, bonnets and windows; and where some people have physically had to push their way through these kids.

Finally, I have seen parents dropping their darlings off at the said shops to meet their friends.

What I want to know is this:

why are they allowed gather in groups in public places?
Why do the gardai not move these kids on if they are in breach of the Public Order Act?
Why do the kids' parents allow them congregate outside shops?
Are the parents aware where their kids are?
Or do the parents actually give a damn?
I wonder what parents would do if their 'darling son or daughter' came home crying that a stranger smacked them for being cheeky or for kicking the football against a car.

January

Possibly better suited here...

tbh

kevin99 wrote: »

Can someone explain why it is that 12 -16 year olds congregate outside local shops?

Cause they've nowhere better to go.

What I want to know is this:

why are they allowed gather in groups in public places?

No law against it.

Why do the gardai not move these kids on if they are in breach of the Public Order Act?

move them on to where? / bigger fish to fry / They are not in breach of the POA

Why do the kids' parents allow them congregate outside shops?

probably don't think they are doing anything wrong.

I wonder what parents would do if their 'darling son or daughter' came home crying that a stranger smacked them for being cheeky or for kicking the football against a car.

I don't have kids at the mo, but if you smacked my kid for being cheeky or kicking a football against a car, I would have a problem with that. I would have a serious problem with that.

You sound like you need to chill out.

Nerin

tbh wrote: »

Cause they've nowhere better to go.


No law against it.


move them on to where? / bigger fish to fry / They are not in breach of the POA


probably don't think they are doing anything wrong.


I don't have kids at the mo, but if you smacked my kid for being cheeky or kicking a football against a car, I would have a problem with that. I would have a serious problem with that.

You sound like you need to chill out.

there are a lot of kids being little ****s out there. the smacking solution mightnt help but neither will the super relaxed let them be ***** to people attitude.

you sound like you need to grow up if he needs to chill out.

JohnK

kevin99 wrote: »

There is a local public park within 300 yards but they couldn't be bothered going there.

But if they go to the park you'll have loads of parents of young kids complaining about all the teenagers taking over and how intimidating it is so where do they do then?

common sense brigade

There are groups of teenagers that hang around outside shops. some are ok kids , some are little criminals in the making. Point is it can be very intimidating for people trying to go to the shop to buy groceries. it can also be intimidating for other kids who want to go the shop but are afraid of being bullied. It should not be tolerated and it is the parents fault, i will never allow my child to hang on street corners and if i caught her disobeying me and doing so she would be grounded. children should have proper activities to be doing in their spare time (cinema, sports, community work etc) and studying. It is up to parents to provide a proper lifestyle for their children and keep their children out of trouble.
personally if i see groups of teenagers intimidating people at shops i ring the Guards and let them deal with it, cos alot of the parents are sat in watching soaps and drinking and smoking and dont give a damn what their kids are doing.

prinz

kevin99 wrote: »

why are they allowed gather in groups in public places?

Allowed to because they are entitled to. A more important question is why? The old cliché of not having anything else to do is complete nonsense. I fail to understand the mindset of a lot of kids who don't have the imagination or cop on to think of anything more entertaining than sitting on a wall/outside a shop hassling people. Zombied halfwits. That's what years of 'children's TV' and being plonked in front of a computer game for hours on end results in.

kevin99 wrote: »

Why do the gardai not move these kids on if they are in breach of the Public Order Act?

How many times have you appraoched the gardaí on this? Report specific incidents and action should/will be taken.

kevin99 wrote: »

Why do the kids' parents allow them congregate outside shops?

The golden rule of Irish parenting these days - pass off responsibility to someone else. Then when something goes wrong you can point the finger at everybody else. Of course the same parents will kick up a fuss if one of these little brats causes them hassle.

kevin99 wrote: »

Are the parents aware where their kids are?

They are aware that they don't have to do anything, and as far as they are concerned that's their job done.

kevin99 wrote: »

Or do the parents actually give a damn?

A lot of the time, no.

kevin99 wrote: »

I wonder what parents would do if their 'darling son or daughter' came home crying that a stranger smacked them for being cheeky or for kicking the football against a car.

I'd love to know. Haven't smacked anyone yet, but have come close.

Crucifix

When I was a teenager we wanted to hang out with each other and had nowhere to go, so we'd just congregate wherever. We never did anything wrong or got in the way, I don't see the problem.

liah

Are there no loitering laws in Ireland?

tbh

Nerin wrote: »

there are a lot of kids being little ****s out there. the smacking solution mightnt help but neither will the super relaxed let them be ***** to people attitude.

you sound like you need to grow up if he needs to chill out.

kids are kids. They're doing nick-naks and kicking a football around, they are hardly the westies :rolleyes: The solution is that we pay higher taxes so we can provide a positive environment for them, any takers? anyone? anyone? thought not.

prinz

liah wrote: »

Are there no loitering laws in Ireland?

Not explicitly, unless you are loitering with a purpose (i.e. loitering with intent to procure a prostitute) AFAIK. You can invoke the Public Order Act to move people along, which isn't done nearly enough IMO.

prinz

tbh wrote: »

kids are kids. They're doing nick-naks and kicking a football around, they are hardly the westies :rolleyes: The solution is that we pay higher taxes so we can provide a positive environment for them, any takers? anyone? anyone? thought not.

Sorry this is bull. How did the rest of us manage to grow up without hanging around outside a shop door/playing nick-nack/sitting on someone's garden wall? Kids are not kids. Kids will engage in the behaviour you allow them to behave in.

Morag

Most parks close early as soon as it get dark and not all of them have an all weather pitch.
So the cark parks of shops with the tarmac and the lights becomes a drawn place for them to go kick a ball.

KERSPLAT!

prinz wrote: »

Allowed to because they are entitled to. A more important question is why? The old cliché of not having anything else to do is complete nonsense. I fail to understand the mindset of a lot of kids who don't have the imagination or cop on to think of anything more entertaining than sitting on a wall/outside a shop hassling people. Zombied halfwits. That's what years of 'children's TV' and being plonked in front of a computer game for hours on end results in.

Sometimes there is nothing todo... Theres only so many things you can do e.g school, football etc. Sometimes just hanging around and having the craic is entertainment enough for young people. I'm not talking about intimidating people or causing a nuisence, like I said, just having the craic. When I was young we hung around my front wall for a while and noone minded as long as we weren't too loud at night. I can understand that some groups will cause trouble but every group of young unes that hang around outside a shop aren't causing trouble,

I also dont believe that its the parents fault, you can only do so much as a parent and holding your childs hand 24/7 isnt one of them, kids will be kids

tbh

prinz wrote: »

Sorry this is bull. How did the rest of us manage to grow up without hanging around outside a shop door/playing nick-nack/sitting on someone's garden wall? Kids are not kids. Kids will engage in the behaviour you allow them to behave in.

I did all that stuff growing up.

syklops

Allowed to because they are entitled to. A more important question is why? The old cliché of not having anything else to do is complete nonsense. I fail to understand the mindset of a lot of kids who don't have the imagination or cop on to think of anything more entertaining than sitting on a wall/outside a shop hassling people. Zombied halfwits. That's what years of 'children's TV' and being plonked in front of a computer game for hours on end results in.

I'm not making fun of you but I had to lol at this. After years of spending their time in front of the computer or TV, the kids venture out onto the street only to be complained about for 'loitering'. You cant win if you're a kid.

"The old cliche of having nothing to do, is just as true today as it was 40 years ago. "What? " I hear you cry. "There are cinemas, and arcades, and bowling lanes, and football clubs and parks, and loads of amenities that i never had growing up". True, but for all of these things, you need money. In some cases you need quite a bit of money.

To answer your question, why do youths gather near shops to begin with, if my memory serves why we did, it is because one 'strong' person did. Usually because he wanted an adult to buy him cigarettes. We all weren't half-witted zombies, but individually we wanted to be around other people, because you had less chance of being picked on if you were in a group. Most of the people in the group probably dont want to be there, but it is where the group is. And when you are 12-16 it is very difficult to walk away from the group.

prinz

IPAM wrote: »

Sometimes there is nothing todo... Theres only so many things you can do e.g school, football etc. Sometimes just hanging around and having the craic is entertainment enough for young people....

Firstly, the having nothing to do.......balls. I'll tell you why. This kind of behaviour tends to spring up in urban areas/ cities, towns etc which have a lot more facilities and opportunities for people than the smaller towns and villages of this country. Go down to some rural village and you won't see 10, 11 teens holding up a shop doorway. You want hang around, go do it somewhere suitable.

IPAM wrote: »

I'm not talking about intimidating people or causing a nuisence, like I said, just having the craic. When I was young we hung around my front wall for a while and noone minded as long as we weren't too loud at night. I can understand that some groups will cause trouble but every group of young unes that hang around outside a shop aren't causing trouble....

..and that's true. Not every group of kids is causing trouble. As for yourself , you and your mates hung around your own house/garden. If that's what you want to do then fine. The problem is most will venture to somebody else's wall and set up camp there.

IPAM wrote: »

I also dont believe that its the parents fault, you can only do so much as a parent and holding your childs hand 24/7 isnt one of them, kids will be kids

Of course it is, if you don't teach your kids to respect themselves, other people, or other people's property you haven't been a proper parent IMO. You don't have to be physically present 24/7 in order to exert a great enough influence over your kids to keep them out of trouble.

tbh

prinz wrote: »

Firstly, the having nothing to do.......balls. I'll tell you why. This kind of behaviour tends to spring up in urban areas/ cities, towns etc which have a lot more facilities and opportunities for people than the smaller towns and villages of this country. .

like?

o down to some rural village and you won't see 10, 11 teens holding up a shop doorway. You want hang around, go do it somewhere suitable.

btw if anything is "balls" on this thread, it's that statement.

prinz

syklops wrote: »

I'm not making fun of you but I had to lol at this. After years of spending their time in front of the computer or TV, the kids venture out onto the street only to be complained about for 'loitering'. You cant win if you're a kid..

It's not the kids fault for being raised by a TV screen, it's the fault of the parents. Also there is plenty to do other than loitering/causing hassle to others. I have no problem with kids knocking about who aren't causing trouble to anyone, playing a bit of football on the street. I have major issues with little dirtbags impacting on other people's quality of life (area I'm living in now has major problems - intimidation, littering, vandalism, grafitti, verbal abuse, threatend physical abuse ) ah but sure, kids will be kids.

prinz

tbh wrote: »

I did all that stuff growing up.

I didn't.

common sense brigade

The solution is that we pay higher taxes so we can provide a positive environment for them, any takers?

This is bull its not up to the taxpayer to entertain peoples children. its up to the parents to provide a positive environment for their kids.

syklops

Also there is plenty to do other than....

Twice now you have been asked "like what". This is now number 3. Like what?

tbh

prinz wrote: »

I didn't.

ok so when you said "the rest of us" you actually meant just you.

prinz

tbh wrote: »

like?

A lot of friends homes etc within walking distance. Sports facilities, public parks, leisure centres, cinemas, public libraries, public transport. Again if kids want to congregate somewhere go do it away from other people's property/on their own wall/away from shops.

prinz

tbh wrote: »

ok so when you said "the rest of us" you actually meant just you.

...I also don't know anyone who did. Ironic that you would take that line, having just previously used yourself as an example.

tbh

common sense brigade wrote: »

This is bull its not up to the taxpayer to entertain peoples children. its up to the parents to provide a positive environment for their kids.

you're talking crap man. The taxpayer provides facilities for people who are sick, for people who want to learn, for people who've broken the law, for people who want to travel. The precedent is well established. a lot of facilities are provided by private clubs and groups but most parents don't have the time or the money to organise the provision of facilities. So they don't, and we get the situation we have now.

So what I'm saying to you is - if the taxpayer doesn't want to "entertain" peoples children, the taxpayer has to accept that peoples children will entertain themselves. Common sense

tbh

prinz wrote: »

...I also don't know anyone who did. Ironic that you would take that line, having just previously used yourself as an example.

well now you do

tbh

prinz wrote: »

A lot of friends homes etc within walking distance. Sports facilities, public parks, leisure centres, cinemas, public libraries, public transport. Again if kids want to congregate somewhere go do it away from other people's property/on their own wall/away from shops.

kids don't want to hang out with their parents.

Sports facilities - closed

public parks - closed / dark /wet,
leisure centres - come on man. What leisure centers? There's none in Swords anyway

cinemas: even I can't afford to go to the cinema every night

public libraries - closed

public transport- huh? Hanging out on the bus like?

Desire to Aspire

Kids will be kids.

prinz wrote: »

A lot of friends homes etc within walking distance. Sports facilities, public parks, leisure centres, cinemas, public libraries, public transport. Again if kids want to congregate somewhere go do it away from other people's property/on their own wall/away from shops.

Most people won't be allowed have a large group of teenagers into their house. I know the most I would bring is four. Cinemas are very expensive these days, and money is tight. You can hardly go to the library for a bit of craic to be fair. Again, a lot of sports facilities cost money.

tbh

prinz wrote: »

(area I'm living in now has major problems - intimidation, littering, vandalism, grafitti, verbal abuse, threatend physical abuse ) ah but sure, kids will be kids.

none of which was mentioned in the OP. We're not discussing your issues, we're discussing the OP. If you want to generalise the discussion, that's fine, but don't get all sarcastic and extrapolate a response to the op to your argument.

Morag

prinz wrote: »

A lot of friends homes etc within walking distance. Sports facilities, public parks, leisure centres, cinemas, public libraries, public transport. Again if kids want to congregate somewhere go do it away from other people's property/on their own wall/away from shops.

Friends homes

Teens want to be off and not under the direct watchful eye of parents, be it their parent or their mates parents.

Sports facilities,

Cost money to book/use and not all of them are into the sport or the facilities close when it's dark.

Public parks,

The ones which have playgrounds, all weather pitches and skateparks all close once it gets dark, the ones that dont' usually don't have ligthing and I would be more concerned about 12-16 year old hanging around in dark parkland areas then those who are in front of a set of shops were people can see them.

leisure centres

They all charge in and kick teens out who are not spending money.

cinemas

Again there is the cost and honestly we who the hell wants a gang of teens down the back of a movie hanging out, talking and on their phones?

public libraries

Aren't cool and you can't hang out and talk in them, you get hushed and ask to leave, most of the local ones are too small to hide out in the stacks and the close by 8pmish.


public transport
What you think they should spend their time riding around on buses/darts and hanging out with the junkies who have their free passes and making a nuisance of themselves?

Yes let segregate all the teens away from the rest of us and then wonder why they grow up to be feral and have no manners or respect forming gangs with corrupted morals. :rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone

Kids kicking a football and nick nacking, better round them up and shoot them. What harm are they doing? I did all that myself not so long ago

prinz

tbh wrote: »

leisure centres - come on man. What leisure centers? There's none in Swords anyway

There's one slap in the middle of Ballymun for example.

tbh wrote: »

cinemas: even I can't afford to go to the cinema every night

Who said they have to go to the cinema every night? Who says they have to meet every night? Who says they have to sit one a stranger's garden wall every night?

tbh wrote: »

public transport- huh? Hanging out on the bus like?

Or you know, going somewhere useful.

KERSPLAT!

prinz wrote: »

Of course it is, if you don't teach your kids to respect themselves, other people, or other people's property you haven't been a proper parent IMO. You don't have to be physically present 24/7 in order to exert a great enough influence over your kids to keep them out of trouble.

How is hanging outside a shop not having respect for themselves, others or their propety?

pakalasa

I wonder could you clear them off with Daniel O'Donnell music.
No law against playing Daniel O'Donnell.:)

tbh

prinz wrote: »

.
Who said they have to go to the cinema every night? Who says they have to meet every night?
.

you are. You're saying there's no excuse for kids hanging around shops because there are *always* more appropriate places for them to go. The simple fact is, there aren't.

tbh

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Kids kicking a football and nick nacking, better round them up and shoot them. What harm are they doing? I did all that myself not so long ago

and you turned out alright

common sense brigade

So what I'm saying to you is - if the taxpayer doesn't want to "entertain" peoples children, the taxpayer has to accept that peoples children will entertain themselves. Common sense

still disagree here. the taxpayer provides schools, social clubs, sports, homework clubs etc and much more.. If in the evening your children are hanging outside shops intimidating peole the fault is entirely on the parent. im a parent and a responsible one at that.

syklops

prinz wrote: »

Sports facilities,

Many kids do do sports. What about the ones who are not into sport, or not good at it? By the age of 12 sports gets very competitive, and unless you are gifted in it, you will not be made welcome. I speak with personal experience. Also, it costs money.

prinz wrote: »

public parks

Public parks are free and open to everyone unless you are a teenager. As has been pointed out, if all the kids who are hanging outside your local shop, hung out in the park instead, the mothers who bring their tots to the park would be complaining about all the 'big kids' taking over the park and intimidating the little ones.

prinz wrote: »

leisure centres

Cost money

prinz wrote: »

cinemas

Cost a sh1tload of money

prinz wrote: »

public libraries

Like in the public park, if a load of teenagers started hanging out in the library the OAPs in there would complain about the teenagers hanging out in the library intimidating them.

I am not being argumentative just for the sake of it. Even if a load of tax money was spent making sure that 99% of kids had somewhere to go after school, there would still be a handful who hang around outside your local shop.

prinz

tbh wrote: »

none of which was mentioned in the OP. We're not discussing your issues, we're discussing the OP. If you want to generalise the discussion, that's fine, but don't get all sarcastic and extrapolate a response to the op to your argument.

I'd call being verbally abusive to shopkeepers, and people being forced to push their way through a crowd to enter a shop, and nick-nacking to be very much in line with what I mentioned.

IPAM wrote: »

How is hanging outside a shop not having respect for themselves, others or their propety?

Or sitting on other people's garden walls, nick-nacking etc?

tbh wrote: »

you are. You're saying there's no excuse for kids hanging around shops because there are *always* more appropriate places for them to go. The simple fact is, there aren't.

What's wrong with their own homes? Again if kids want to hang about and kick a football about without making a nuisance of themselves that's one thing. What's described in the OP is not just that.

tbh

prinz wrote: »

I'd call being verbally abusive to shopkeepers, and people being forced to push their way through a crowd to enter a shop, and nick-nacking to be very much in line with what I mentioned.

Kids are kids man. Kids crowd the doorway of my local shop, it's not a big problem. They are only kids. Kids do nick-nacks on my door from time to time. It's not a big deal, they are only kids.

What's wrong with their own homes?

their parents are there you don't get that? Do you hang out with your parents much?

syklops

Whats nick-nacking?

Wolfe Tone

All the cool kids stay at home and play scrabble with their folks

tbh

ringing doorbells and running away.

Wolfe Tone

syklops wrote: »

Whats nick-nacking?

Ring doorbell then leg it!!

prinz

tbh wrote: »

Kids are kids man. Kids crowd the doorway of my local shop, it's not a big problem. They are only kids. Kids do nick-nacks on my door from time to time. It's not a big deal, they are only kids.

That's you. For a lot of people they are a big problem.

tbh wrote: »

their parents are there you don't get that? Do you hang out with your parents much?

..and what is the problem with the parents being there? If they aren't doing anything wrong, what is the issue?

syklops

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ring doorbell then leg it!!

Never did it myself, but had people do it to me. The thumb tack and sellotape trick stopped it quite quickly though.

tbh

prinz wrote: »

..and what is the problem with the parents being there? If they aren't doing anything wrong, what is the issue?

you were a teenager once prinz, right?

prinz

tbh wrote: »

you were a teenager once prinz, right?

Yeah I was. Anything I could do standing outside a shop entrance I could do at home.

tbh

syklops wrote: »

Never did it myself, but had people do it to me. The thumb tack and sellotape trick stopped it quite quickly though.

nice! the kids did our house once night, but unfortunately for them I was working in the hall at the time. Had the door opened before the end of the DING - 12 year old girl standing there, scrabbled around for about 30 seconds for something to say and then burst into tears.

It can be a big deal when someone vunerable is targetted, I'm not downplaying that. But for the majority of kids doing it, its not malicious

tbh

prinz wrote: »

Yeah I was. Anything I could do standing outside a shop entrance I could do at home.

we're very different people