Should We Have A Minimum Wage?

UsernameInUse

No:
The vast majority of economists believe the minimum wage law costs the economy thousands of jobs.

1. Teenagers, workers in training, college students, interns, and part-time workers all have their options and opportunities limited by the minimum wage.
2. A low-paying job remains an entry point for those with few marketable skills.
3. Abolishing the minimum wage will allow businesses to achieve greater efficiency and lower prices i.e - lowering cost of living.
4. When you force Irish companies to pay a certain wage, you increase the likelihood that those companies will outsource jobs to foreign countries, where labour is much cheaper.
5. Non-profit charitable organisations are hurt by the minimum wage.
6. The minimum wage can drive some small companies out of business.
7. A minimum wage gives businesses an additional incentive to mechanise duties previously held by humans.
8. The minimum wage creates a competitive advantage for foreign companies, providing yet another obstacle in the ability of Irish companies to compete globally.

The minimum wage law is just another example of government condescendingly controlling our actions and destroying personal choice. Citizens do have the ability to say no to a lower wage.

Yes:

1. Adults who currently work for minimum wage are likely to lose jobs to teenagers who will work for much less.
2. Workers need a minimum amount of income from their work to survive and pay the bills.
3. Businesses have more power to abuse the labour market.
4. It forces businesses to share some of the vast wealth with the people that help produce it.

What are your thoughts? Yes or No?

FreudianSlippers

No.

What doesn't work, however, is a low minimum wage.

minidazzler

So you get offered 2 euro an hour to wait tables, and depend on Irish people for tips? There is no tipping culture here so it wouldn't work.

Though a system by where an employer pays a basic 3.50 an hour and then if the rest isn't made up to 7.65 an hour with tips the employer has to pay the balance might work in restaurants and such. I know that's how it's done in some US states, with other more civilised states (e.g. WA) having a flat minimum wage no matter what the job.

Pauleta

I think we are losing jobs to eastern Europe due to too high a minimum wage, even with the recent reduction but i dont believe in abandoning it completely. I think maybe €1 max being cut would be acceptable. There's a lot of talk about creating a "smart economy" for graduates etc which is good short term but eventually even those jobs will go elsewhere and what about everyone else who hasnt gone to college.

Long term our country has no future with multinational companies because those jobs will go to low cost wage countries. We need to find something that Ireland can do better than most and i think that may be renewable resources like wind and tide power.

Azureus

I think we should have A minimum wage, but the current system of min wage / state benefits should probably be looked into a bit more and altered with the cost of living. If you are under 18 and dont have experience the minimum wage is basically nothing (think I was working for €5.20 an hour in my first waitressing job and they didnt tip in that place), its only when you go over 18 and have experience that it becomes the €7.65 or whatever that it is now. I dont think its reasonable to expect people to work for less than that; with bills/rent etc it just wouldnt be feasible. I can barely live comfortably now and Im on more than the minimum.

smokin ace

there is a few major problems with cutting or scrapping the min wage and here is just a few to spring to mind

people in general want to work but if they are better off on benefits where is the invective to work and thats whats currently happening in the country at this moment in time

the cost of living thats out of this country's control for example the rising cost of oil on the world market that in turn will make everything more expensive in this country from a loaf of bread due to transportation costs to filling the car up to filling up the home heating oil to keep the house warm and in reality thats currently happening in this country at this moment in time


so i for one are in favour of a min wage do to other factors going on thats out of peoples control and these are just two points off the top of my head

FreudianSlippers

smokin ace wrote: »

there is a few major problems with cutting or scrapping the min wage and here is just a few to spring to mind

people in general want to work but if they are better off on benefits where is the invective to work and thats whats currently happening in the country at this moment in time

the cost of living thats out of this country's control for example the rising cost of oil on the world market that in turn will make everything more expensive in this country from a loaf of bread due to transportation costs to filling the car up to filling up the home heating oil to keep the house warm and in reality thats currently happening in this country at this moment in time


so i for one are in favour of a min wage do to other factors going on thats out of peoples control

Minimum wage ≠ incentive to work.

Daegerty

minidazzler wrote: »

So you get offered 2 euro an hour to wait tables, and depend on Irish people for tips? There is no tipping culture here so it wouldn't work.

Though a system by where an employer pays a basic 3.50 an hour and then if the rest isn't made up to 7.65 an hour with tips the employer has to pay the balance might work in restaurants and such. I know that's how it's done in some US states, with other more civilised states (e.g. WA) having a flat minimum wage no matter what the job.

Ah please not this tipping sh1t over here too. Don't want to have some underpaid sap staring me in the gob with a massive frown on his face after I pay him the full amount he asked for. Only to later find out he wanted me to pay him more still.

UsernameInUse

OSI wrote: »

Have you ever worked for minimum wage? I don't think you realise how little it actually is and how utterly soul destroying it is to work your ass off to receive such little pay.

As if there isn't enough incentive to sit on the dole as it is...

Ah-Ha! But there would be no nanny-state.

smokin ace

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Ah-Ha! But there would be no nanny-state.

ok you say no nanny-state i am listening very carefully so how would you change it from a nanny state and please explain your examples and if you had the chance how and why would you implement them

Gillington

Sure minimum wage or no minimum wage,it doesnt matter,Companies will just fin another WPP on the Fás scheme or something like that to screw up the system.

UsernameInUse

smokin ace wrote: »

ok you say no nanny-state i am listening very carefully so how would you change it from a nanny state and please explain your examples and if you had the chance how and why would you implement them

The welfare system causes poverty, not eradicate it. It's most interesting to note, that the welfare system is actually paid for by the poor, not the rich.

Let's take one example - if a cleaner, say earns €5 over the limit in a part-time job, he/she does not qualify for a medical card. Now, not only does this increase the incentive to go on social welfare, it literally forces him/her to remain within a vicious cycle of state assistance. He/She is trapped because of her/his low marketable skills.

They have two options: Either remain on state assistance, or seek a low income occupation. Welfare discourages our people from working. You must remember that they are also paying income tax and now, the universal social charge. The point is that throughout history, the only systems in which the poor have been able to escape crushing poverty has been under the Free Market. The "Government regulations" are, by definition, immoral-- since they compel individuals to do something they may not be willing to do. With the welfare state, you are literally taking money from A and B, and giving it to C and D while taking a little compensation for the duty yourself.

An employee may find little incentive in a welfare state to work in McDonalds and strive to become a manager for higher wages. A society that prioritises equality, will get neither liberty nor equality. A society which treats each individual equal and grants opportunities to all, presents a platform for anyone who wishes to take it.

Crucifix

So you want to get rid of the dole and the minimum wage and just let people sink or swim?

sonic85

maybe people should give their own occupation along with their answer

UsernameInUse

Crucifix wrote: »

So you want to get rid of the dole and the minimum wage and just let people sink or swim?

On the outside, I understand it's difficult to understand but you'll find, upon deeper investigation, that it is a more humane system. The welfare system destroys the very group of people it was intended to help. Throughout history, the poor have never opted for minimum wage laws. Why was that?

It was enforced by the unions who didn't want competition, literally trapping the poor and prolonging poverty. The reason for this is because businesses who have, say €10,000 weekly for employee salaries will not be able to employ low skilled workers i.e - college students, the disadvantaged, interns ect. So how can employees get work without experience and how can they get experience without work? The system is an evil entity imposed on poor societies from bureaucracy which is considered a normality through powerful institutions and the passage of time. No minimum wage, no welfare system = no poverty.

Crucifix

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Throughout history, the poor have never opted for minimum wage laws. Why was that?

Do you have any examples/statistics for that? I've never heard of poor people voting against or majorly opposing minimum wage

Cybertron85

Ofcourse it should be kept.

People on the minimum wage earn just enough to live on as it is, and a huge chunk of that money goes straight back into the economy.

Dropping the minimum wage would lead to more money going to a smaller number of people and open the doors for legal exploitation.

FreudianSlippers

sonic85 wrote: »

maybe people should give their own occupation along with their answer

I'm a prostitute.

sonic85

the arguement seems to be that if the dole/minimum wage is scrapped that the cost of living will go down dramatically and most people will find work? doesnt sound right to me. if both of those were scrapped tomorrow the country would be in chaos. the only people who would be smiling would be employers. huge competition for jobs driving wages down to nothing and huge pressure on people to work long hours for fcuk all.

FreudianSlippers

Cybertron85 wrote: »

Ofcourse it should be kept.

People on the minimum wage earn just enough to live on as it is, and a huge chunk of that money goes straight back into the economy.

Dropping the minimum wage would lead to more money going to a smaller number of people and open the doors for legal exploitation.

Not necessarily true.

This post points out the opposite very well.

bnt

No. It's tampering with the mechanism of a functioning economy and can have unintended consequences. Some ask "then how do people afford things?", but the costs of things are not fixed, they fluctuate according to what people are willing and able to pay (among other things).

In the UK, the govt. just changed the rules to allow universities to charge up to £9,000 a year in tuition fees from 2012. Who can guess what most universities will be charging from 2012? The government is surprised, I tell you, surprised!

sonic85

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm a prostitute.

always a demand for people of your profession - id imagine youre earning a lot more than E180 a week

Cybertron85

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Not necessarily true.

This post points out the opposite very well.

No minimum wage and no dole = no poverty?! That sounds a lot like something Thatcher or Reagan would've loved to shove down our throat.

Again unions are being painted as the ogre, but if it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have many of the rights we now have as employees.

Only highly specialised jobs would be paid a good wage, because a small pool of people are qualified for them. The jobs which can be done by almost anyone (students, immigrants, less educated people etc) will drive down their employees wages to peanuts. ..that equals poverty for many, although the employers will be laughing all the way to the bank.

sonic85

well said

FreudianSlippers

Cybertron85 wrote: »

No minimum wage and no dole = no poverty?! That sounds a lot like something Thatcher or Reagan would've loved to shove down our throat.

Again unions are being painted as the ogre, but if it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have many of the rights we now have as employees.

Only highly specialised jobs would be paid a good wage, because a small pool of people are qualified for them. The jobs which can be done by almost anyone (students, immigrants, less educated people etc) will drive down their employees wages to peanuts. ..that equals poverty for many, although the employers will be laughing all the way to the bank.

All 3 points are not based on any economic reality. Almost all our employment legislation has feck all to do with unions.

Cybertron85

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

All 3 points are not based on any economic reality. Almost all our employment legislation has feck all to do with unions.

Sweatshops are good economic sense, doesn't mean they're good for society at large.

If I'm an employer and I can choose between paying someone 7.50€ an hour or 3.00€ an hour, I know what the best business decision is to maximise my profit.

Whether that person can live on 3.00€ an hour is none of my concern, that's something the government should enforce, unless they scrap that legislation.

FreudianSlippers

Cybertron85 wrote: »

Sweatshops are good economic sense, doesn't mean they're good for society at large.

If I'm an employer and I can choose between paying someone 7.50€ an hour or 3.00€ an hour, I know what the best business decision is to maximise my profit.

Whether that person can live on 3.00€ an hour is none of my concern, that's something the government should enforce, unless they scrap that legislation.

Slippery slope fallacy, hello.

UsernameInUse

Crucifix wrote: »

Do you have any examples/statistics for that? I've never heard of poor people voting against or majorly opposing minimum wage

Supporters argue that a minimum wage is an effective anti-poverty tool. If businesses must pay their low-wage employees more, then those workers should earn more and fewer of them should live in poverty. Common sense says a higher minimum wage should fight poverty. The facts, however, show otherwise. Economists have examined the evidence and come to the conclusion that the minimum wage does not reduce poverty.



Despite supporters' good intentions, their actions are untrue for three main reasons.
1. The only workers who benefit from a minimum wage are those who actually earn that higher wage. Raising the minimum wage reduces many workers' job opportunities and working hours.
2. Few minimum-wage earners actually come from poor households.
3. The majority of the poor do not work at all, for any wage, so having the minimum wage does not help them.


The late Milton Friedman could explain things better than I ever could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rls8H6MktrA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6e8Pa6-IZU

2 stroke

All entrants to the new Dail should spend the first 6 months on minimum wage.

andrew

I've heard the argument made that the minimum wage increases worker output/productivity. If someone's paid more, they'll do a better job than if they get paid a pittance. If i'm getting paid 3 euro to do a job, then I'll treat my work accordingly, as something only worth 3 euro. As such, employers are less inclined to fire people when they have to pay them more than they would otherwise, because they work better.

On a principled level, I think the minimum wage should be kept. There's no denying that lower wages would mean more jobs, but I think a minimum wage places a value judgement on a person's time, that no matter what your job, an hour of your time is worth a societally determined minimum and that no one should be forced to accept a pittance of a wage out of desperation.

If you're going to abolish the minimum wage, though, then you'd need to look at the social welfare system too. Lower the minimum wage and you've to lower the dole as well. Which is fine if you live in a society which has a strong network of charities from which people can get help. But Irish people, I think, prefer to see their income redistributed by the government through social welfare rather than giving to charity, and so reductions in social welfare would lead to significant reductions in income for a lot of people.

pragmatic1

We shoud pay people in buttons instead.