Should We Have A Minimum Wage?

UsernameInUse

No:
The vast majority of economists believe the minimum wage law costs the economy thousands of jobs.

1. Teenagers, workers in training, college students, interns, and part-time workers all have their options and opportunities limited by the minimum wage.
2. A low-paying job remains an entry point for those with few marketable skills.
3. Abolishing the minimum wage will allow businesses to achieve greater efficiency and lower prices i.e - lowering cost of living.
4. When you force Irish companies to pay a certain wage, you increase the likelihood that those companies will outsource jobs to foreign countries, where labour is much cheaper.
5. Non-profit charitable organisations are hurt by the minimum wage.
6. The minimum wage can drive some small companies out of business.
7. A minimum wage gives businesses an additional incentive to mechanise duties previously held by humans.
8. The minimum wage creates a competitive advantage for foreign companies, providing yet another obstacle in the ability of Irish companies to compete globally.

The minimum wage law is just another example of government condescendingly controlling our actions and destroying personal choice. Citizens do have the ability to say no to a lower wage.

Yes:

1. Adults who currently work for minimum wage are likely to lose jobs to teenagers who will work for much less.
2. Workers need a minimum amount of income from their work to survive and pay the bills.
3. Businesses have more power to abuse the labour market.
4. It forces businesses to share some of the vast wealth with the people that help produce it.

What are your thoughts? Yes or No?

FreudianSlippers

No.

What doesn't work, however, is a low minimum wage.

minidazzler

So you get offered 2 euro an hour to wait tables, and depend on Irish people for tips? There is no tipping culture here so it wouldn't work.

Though a system by where an employer pays a basic 3.50 an hour and then if the rest isn't made up to 7.65 an hour with tips the employer has to pay the balance might work in restaurants and such. I know that's how it's done in some US states, with other more civilised states (e.g. WA) having a flat minimum wage no matter what the job.

Pauleta

I think we are losing jobs to eastern Europe due to too high a minimum wage, even with the recent reduction but i dont believe in abandoning it completely. I think maybe €1 max being cut would be acceptable. There's a lot of talk about creating a "smart economy" for graduates etc which is good short term but eventually even those jobs will go elsewhere and what about everyone else who hasnt gone to college.

Long term our country has no future with multinational companies because those jobs will go to low cost wage countries. We need to find something that Ireland can do better than most and i think that may be renewable resources like wind and tide power.

Azureus

I think we should have A minimum wage, but the current system of min wage / state benefits should probably be looked into a bit more and altered with the cost of living. If you are under 18 and dont have experience the minimum wage is basically nothing (think I was working for €5.20 an hour in my first waitressing job and they didnt tip in that place), its only when you go over 18 and have experience that it becomes the €7.65 or whatever that it is now. I dont think its reasonable to expect people to work for less than that; with bills/rent etc it just wouldnt be feasible. I can barely live comfortably now and Im on more than the minimum.

smokin ace

there is a few major problems with cutting or scrapping the min wage and here is just a few to spring to mind

people in general want to work but if they are better off on benefits where is the invective to work and thats whats currently happening in the country at this moment in time

the cost of living thats out of this country's control for example the rising cost of oil on the world market that in turn will make everything more expensive in this country from a loaf of bread due to transportation costs to filling the car up to filling up the home heating oil to keep the house warm and in reality thats currently happening in this country at this moment in time


so i for one are in favour of a min wage do to other factors going on thats out of peoples control and these are just two points off the top of my head

FreudianSlippers

smokin ace wrote: »

there is a few major problems with cutting or scrapping the min wage and here is just a few to spring to mind

people in general want to work but if they are better off on benefits where is the invective to work and thats whats currently happening in the country at this moment in time

the cost of living thats out of this country's control for example the rising cost of oil on the world market that in turn will make everything more expensive in this country from a loaf of bread due to transportation costs to filling the car up to filling up the home heating oil to keep the house warm and in reality thats currently happening in this country at this moment in time


so i for one are in favour of a min wage do to other factors going on thats out of peoples control

Minimum wage ≠ incentive to work.

Daegerty

minidazzler wrote: »

So you get offered 2 euro an hour to wait tables, and depend on Irish people for tips? There is no tipping culture here so it wouldn't work.

Though a system by where an employer pays a basic 3.50 an hour and then if the rest isn't made up to 7.65 an hour with tips the employer has to pay the balance might work in restaurants and such. I know that's how it's done in some US states, with other more civilised states (e.g. WA) having a flat minimum wage no matter what the job.

Ah please not this tipping sh1t over here too. Don't want to have some underpaid sap staring me in the gob with a massive frown on his face after I pay him the full amount he asked for. Only to later find out he wanted me to pay him more still.

UsernameInUse

OSI wrote: »

Have you ever worked for minimum wage? I don't think you realise how little it actually is and how utterly soul destroying it is to work your ass off to receive such little pay.

As if there isn't enough incentive to sit on the dole as it is...

Ah-Ha! But there would be no nanny-state.

smokin ace

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Ah-Ha! But there would be no nanny-state.

ok you say no nanny-state i am listening very carefully so how would you change it from a nanny state and please explain your examples and if you had the chance how and why would you implement them

Gillington

Sure minimum wage or no minimum wage,it doesnt matter,Companies will just fin another WPP on the Fás scheme or something like that to screw up the system.

UsernameInUse

smokin ace wrote: »

ok you say no nanny-state i am listening very carefully so how would you change it from a nanny state and please explain your examples and if you had the chance how and why would you implement them

The welfare system causes poverty, not eradicate it. It's most interesting to note, that the welfare system is actually paid for by the poor, not the rich.

Let's take one example - if a cleaner, say earns €5 over the limit in a part-time job, he/she does not qualify for a medical card. Now, not only does this increase the incentive to go on social welfare, it literally forces him/her to remain within a vicious cycle of state assistance. He/She is trapped because of her/his low marketable skills.

They have two options: Either remain on state assistance, or seek a low income occupation. Welfare discourages our people from working. You must remember that they are also paying income tax and now, the universal social charge. The point is that throughout history, the only systems in which the poor have been able to escape crushing poverty has been under the Free Market. The "Government regulations" are, by definition, immoral-- since they compel individuals to do something they may not be willing to do. With the welfare state, you are literally taking money from A and B, and giving it to C and D while taking a little compensation for the duty yourself.

An employee may find little incentive in a welfare state to work in McDonalds and strive to become a manager for higher wages. A society that prioritises equality, will get neither liberty nor equality. A society which treats each individual equal and grants opportunities to all, presents a platform for anyone who wishes to take it.

Crucifix

So you want to get rid of the dole and the minimum wage and just let people sink or swim?

sonic85

maybe people should give their own occupation along with their answer

UsernameInUse

Crucifix wrote: »

So you want to get rid of the dole and the minimum wage and just let people sink or swim?

On the outside, I understand it's difficult to understand but you'll find, upon deeper investigation, that it is a more humane system. The welfare system destroys the very group of people it was intended to help. Throughout history, the poor have never opted for minimum wage laws. Why was that?

It was enforced by the unions who didn't want competition, literally trapping the poor and prolonging poverty. The reason for this is because businesses who have, say €10,000 weekly for employee salaries will not be able to employ low skilled workers i.e - college students, the disadvantaged, interns ect. So how can employees get work without experience and how can they get experience without work? The system is an evil entity imposed on poor societies from bureaucracy which is considered a normality through powerful institutions and the passage of time. No minimum wage, no welfare system = no poverty.

Crucifix

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Throughout history, the poor have never opted for minimum wage laws. Why was that?

Do you have any examples/statistics for that? I've never heard of poor people voting against or majorly opposing minimum wage

Cybertron85

Ofcourse it should be kept.

People on the minimum wage earn just enough to live on as it is, and a huge chunk of that money goes straight back into the economy.

Dropping the minimum wage would lead to more money going to a smaller number of people and open the doors for legal exploitation.

FreudianSlippers

sonic85 wrote: »

maybe people should give their own occupation along with their answer

I'm a prostitute.

sonic85

the arguement seems to be that if the dole/minimum wage is scrapped that the cost of living will go down dramatically and most people will find work? doesnt sound right to me. if both of those were scrapped tomorrow the country would be in chaos. the only people who would be smiling would be employers. huge competition for jobs driving wages down to nothing and huge pressure on people to work long hours for fcuk all.

FreudianSlippers

Cybertron85 wrote: »

Ofcourse it should be kept.

People on the minimum wage earn just enough to live on as it is, and a huge chunk of that money goes straight back into the economy.

Dropping the minimum wage would lead to more money going to a smaller number of people and open the doors for legal exploitation.

Not necessarily true.

This post points out the opposite very well.

bnt

No. It's tampering with the mechanism of a functioning economy and can have unintended consequences. Some ask "then how do people afford things?", but the costs of things are not fixed, they fluctuate according to what people are willing and able to pay (among other things).

In the UK, the govt. just changed the rules to allow universities to charge up to £9,000 a year in tuition fees from 2012. Who can guess what most universities will be charging from 2012? The government is surprised, I tell you, surprised!

sonic85

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm a prostitute.

always a demand for people of your profession - id imagine youre earning a lot more than E180 a week

Cybertron85

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Not necessarily true.

This post points out the opposite very well.

No minimum wage and no dole = no poverty?! That sounds a lot like something Thatcher or Reagan would've loved to shove down our throat.

Again unions are being painted as the ogre, but if it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have many of the rights we now have as employees.

Only highly specialised jobs would be paid a good wage, because a small pool of people are qualified for them. The jobs which can be done by almost anyone (students, immigrants, less educated people etc) will drive down their employees wages to peanuts. ..that equals poverty for many, although the employers will be laughing all the way to the bank.

sonic85

well said

FreudianSlippers

Cybertron85 wrote: »

No minimum wage and no dole = no poverty?! That sounds a lot like something Thatcher or Reagan would've loved to shove down our throat.

Again unions are being painted as the ogre, but if it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have many of the rights we now have as employees.

Only highly specialised jobs would be paid a good wage, because a small pool of people are qualified for them. The jobs which can be done by almost anyone (students, immigrants, less educated people etc) will drive down their employees wages to peanuts. ..that equals poverty for many, although the employers will be laughing all the way to the bank.

All 3 points are not based on any economic reality. Almost all our employment legislation has feck all to do with unions.

Cybertron85

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

All 3 points are not based on any economic reality. Almost all our employment legislation has feck all to do with unions.

Sweatshops are good economic sense, doesn't mean they're good for society at large.

If I'm an employer and I can choose between paying someone 7.50€ an hour or 3.00€ an hour, I know what the best business decision is to maximise my profit.

Whether that person can live on 3.00€ an hour is none of my concern, that's something the government should enforce, unless they scrap that legislation.

FreudianSlippers

Cybertron85 wrote: »

Sweatshops are good economic sense, doesn't mean they're good for society at large.

If I'm an employer and I can choose between paying someone 7.50€ an hour or 3.00€ an hour, I know what the best business decision is to maximise my profit.

Whether that person can live on 3.00€ an hour is none of my concern, that's something the government should enforce, unless they scrap that legislation.

Slippery slope fallacy, hello.

UsernameInUse

Crucifix wrote: »

Do you have any examples/statistics for that? I've never heard of poor people voting against or majorly opposing minimum wage

Supporters argue that a minimum wage is an effective anti-poverty tool. If businesses must pay their low-wage employees more, then those workers should earn more and fewer of them should live in poverty. Common sense says a higher minimum wage should fight poverty. The facts, however, show otherwise. Economists have examined the evidence and come to the conclusion that the minimum wage does not reduce poverty.



Despite supporters' good intentions, their actions are untrue for three main reasons.
1. The only workers who benefit from a minimum wage are those who actually earn that higher wage. Raising the minimum wage reduces many workers' job opportunities and working hours.
2. Few minimum-wage earners actually come from poor households.
3. The majority of the poor do not work at all, for any wage, so having the minimum wage does not help them.


The late Milton Friedman could explain things better than I ever could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rls8H6MktrA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6e8Pa6-IZU

2 stroke

All entrants to the new Dail should spend the first 6 months on minimum wage.

andrew

I've heard the argument made that the minimum wage increases worker output/productivity. If someone's paid more, they'll do a better job than if they get paid a pittance. If i'm getting paid 3 euro to do a job, then I'll treat my work accordingly, as something only worth 3 euro. As such, employers are less inclined to fire people when they have to pay them more than they would otherwise, because they work better.

On a principled level, I think the minimum wage should be kept. There's no denying that lower wages would mean more jobs, but I think a minimum wage places a value judgement on a person's time, that no matter what your job, an hour of your time is worth a societally determined minimum and that no one should be forced to accept a pittance of a wage out of desperation.

If you're going to abolish the minimum wage, though, then you'd need to look at the social welfare system too. Lower the minimum wage and you've to lower the dole as well. Which is fine if you live in a society which has a strong network of charities from which people can get help. But Irish people, I think, prefer to see their income redistributed by the government through social welfare rather than giving to charity, and so reductions in social welfare would lead to significant reductions in income for a lot of people.

pragmatic1

We shoud pay people in buttons instead.

kraggy

minidazzler wrote: »

So you get offered 2 euro an hour to wait tables, and depend on Irish people for tips? There is no tipping culture here so it wouldn't work.

Though a system by where an employer pays a basic 3.50 an hour and then if the rest isn't made up to 7.65 an hour with tips the employer has to pay the balance might work in restaurants and such. I know that's how it's done in some US states, with other more civilised states (e.g. WA) having a flat minimum wage no matter what the job.

Who said anything about relying on tips?

The minimum wage is a new thing in this country. It only came in a few years ago. We managed ok without it before that.

The market always balanced itself. But it provides protection for employees by having one. However, it should be lower than it is. But should be lowered after unemployment assistance and benefit have been lowered.

We must provide an incentive for people to work.

FoxT

For me, this is a grey area.

No:
The vast majority of economists believe the minimum wage law costs the economy thousands of jobs.

1. Teenagers, workers in training, college students, interns, and part-time workers all have their options and opportunities limited by the minimum wage. [TRUE, IF THE MIN WAGE LEVEL IS TOO HIGH]
2. A low-paying job remains an entry point for those with few marketable skills. [ TRUE, AND THEY COULD BE TRAPPED IN IT. BETTER TO OFFER THESE PEOPLE OPPTYS TO INCREASE THEIR SKILLS THAN TO KEEP THEM LOCKED IN TO A 40 HOUR WEEK ON MIN WAGE]
3. Abolishing the minimum wage will allow businesses to achieve greater efficiency and lower prices i.e - lowering cost of living. [FOR MANY BUSINESSES, THIS WILL HAVE LITTLE EFFECT AS LABOUR COSTS ARE LOWER, THAN, SAY, RENT. THIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE FOR SMALL RETAIL OUTLETS IN HIGH-RENT/UPWARD-ONLY RENT REVIEW SITUATIONS] ]
4. When you force Irish companies to pay a certain wage, you increase the likelihood that those companies will outsource jobs to foreign countries, where labour is much cheaper.[TRUE FOR SOME INDUSTRIES THAT ARE NOT LOCATION-DEPENDENT. NOT TRUE FOR AREAS LIKE RETAIL OR SERVICES]
5. Non-profit charitable organisations are hurt by the minimum wage. [NOT TRUE. PEOPLE CAN VOLUNTEER.]
6. The minimum wage can drive some small companies out of business. [TRUE, AND THEY WILL, IN DUE COURSE, BE REPLACED BY BUSINESSES THAT ADD MORE VALUE & ARE MORE PROFITABLE]
7. A minimum wage gives businesses an additional incentive to mechanise duties previously held by humans. [TRUE IN SOME CASES. IN THESE CASES, INCREASED AUTOMATION IS A GOOD THING BECAUSE IT INCREASES PRODUCTIVITY & HELPS IRELAND AS A WHOLE TO MAINTAIN COMPETITIVENESS]
8. The minimum wage creates a competitive advantage for foreign companies, providing yet another obstacle in the ability of Irish companies to compete globally. [ONLY IN SOME INDUSTRIES. DOES NOT APPLY TO LOCATION-DEPENDENT ONES, AS I MENTIONED ABOVE. ]

The minimum wage law is just another example of government condescendingly controlling our actions and destroying personal choice. Citizens do have the ability to say no to a lower wage.[ SOME DO, SOME DO NOT]

Yes:

1. Adults who currently work for minimum wage are likely to lose jobs to teenagers who will work for much less. [TRUE. BUT ENTICING TEENAGERS TO DROP OUT OF EDUCATION FOR A LOW WAGE IS ALSO WRONG. AND, ADULTS SHOULD HAVE MORE OPPTIES TO PURSUE FURTHER EDUCATION IF THEY CHOOSE]
2. Workers need a minimum amount of income from their work to survive and pay the bills. [TRUE. BUT INCREASING THE MIN WAGE MAY MAKE SOME OF THOSE BILLS HIGHER....]
3. Businesses have more power to abuse the labour market.[TRUE]
4. It forces businesses to share some of the vast wealth with the people that help produce it.[WHAT VAST WEALTH WOULD THAT BE, NOW?]

What are your thoughts? Yes or No?[/QUOTE]

I would like to see a better balance between social welfare & working for people who are on low wages - so they neither have a low-wage trap, nor a social welfare trap. Employers who offer low paid jobs should be prepared to offer benefits such as flexible working hours so that people in these jobs can balance the pay/social welfare deal & also have time to avail of further education opptys.
I am not at all involved in retailing or the service industry - but in my view that industry is being strangled , not by low wages, but by punitive rents & overheads, which are then passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices.

UsernameInUse

FoxT wrote: »

Non-profit charitable organisations are hurt by the minimum wage. [NOT TRUE. PEOPLE CAN VOLUNTEER.]

Charitable organisations are among those most likely to benefit from the elimination of the minimum wage. Let's take an example - consider a homeless shelter. This type of shelter normally needs workers to clean, collect & organise donations, counsel & assist residents, monitor help-lines, provide legal assistance, and so on. Volunteers help relieve some of the duties, but it's often tough to find dedicated ongoing volunteers to do the job. After all, volunteers still have to earn a living, raise a family, etc.

However, if the charitable organisation were able to pay some amount, even a few euro an hour, it would better be able to build a more steady set of workers. A non-profit organisation may simply not be able to afford a €7.50 or whatever per hour pay rate. Thus, non-profits have only two solutions: dissolve their organisations or hire fewer people to provide the charitable service. The minimum wage kills private charity. Why is the VDP not so prominent as it once was, as some other poster said, before the introduction of the minimum wage?

RussellTuring

Very interesting thread. I'm as yet undecided as to whether or not it should be kept. On the one hand, keeping a minimum wage seems like a good way to ensure that those who are most vulnerable have a basic standard of living. On the other, I feel that this should really be the purpose of welfare. If we want to use it more dynamically, say to incentivise working in the first place or to encourage the growth of positions for potential workers to fill, it doesn't make sense to just set it at an arbitrary point for everyone over 18 with experience, irrespective of other factors such as the industry and the risk involved in the job.

Catch yourself on

pragmatic1 wrote: »

We shoud pay people in buttons instead.

Or bananas.

Nothingbetter2d

Pauleta wrote: »

I think we are losing jobs to eastern Europe due to too high a minimum wage, even with the recent reduction but i dont believe in abandoning it completely. I think maybe €1 max being cut would be acceptable. There's a lot of talk about creating a "smart economy" for graduates etc which is good short term but eventually even those jobs will go elsewhere and what about everyone else who hasnt gone to college.

Long term our country has no future with multinational companies because those jobs will go to low cost wage countries. We need to find something that Ireland can do better than most and i think that may be renewable resources like wind and tide power.

we actually lose jobs to eastern eu and asia more cos the high cost of energy in this country more so than wages as most factories are automated robots nowadays.

Crucifix

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Supporters argue that a minimum wage is an effective anti-poverty tool. If businesses must pay their low-wage employees more, then those workers should earn more and fewer of them should live in poverty. Common sense says a higher minimum wage should fight poverty. The facts, however, show otherwise. Economists have examined the evidence and come to the conclusion that the minimum wage does not reduce poverty.



Despite supporters' good intentions, their actions are untrue for three main reasons.
1. The only workers who benefit from a minimum wage are those who actually earn that higher wage. Raising the minimum wage reduces many workers' job opportunities and working hours.
2. Few minimum-wage earners actually come from poor households.
3. The majority of the poor do not work at all, for any wage, so having the minimum wage does not help them.


The late Milton Friedman could explain things better than I ever could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rls8H6MktrA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6e8Pa6-IZU

So that's a no then?

Lockstep

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Despite supporters' good intentions, their actions are untrue for three main reasons.
1. The only workers who benefit from a minimum wage are those who actually earn that higher wage. Raising the minimum wage reduces many workers' job opportunities and working hours.
2. Few minimum-wage earners actually come from poor households.
3. The majority of the poor do not work at all, for any wage, so having the minimum wage does not help them.

Have you *any* sources for these at all?
Your arguments seem to revolve around 'facts' and statements without any substantiation.

Now, if you were saying that having an overly high minimum wage=more unemployment you'd find few opponents. But your unsourced and dubious claims go a lot further than that.

wolfpawnat

I love how it is always those on salary's and business owners that say abolish minimum wage. Cop on, people need to have the security of it to try and get through this life. Why should a woman working the till in Tesco's do it for less than she is already!?!

endabob1

When I was home in November I had no idea that the minimum wage was so high, I almost fell over when I heard; the cost to company must be over 10Euros an hour. (I relaise the budget was supposed to reduce it since then but I'm not 100% whether it got enforced or not?)
I work for a manufacturing company in South Africa our cost to company is between 3 & 4 Euros an hour and we are being told that we are not competitive with Asia. How in the world is Ireland meant to have any kind of industrial base?

However the cost of living is extremely high in Ireland which is why the Minimum wage is so high. The hard truth is that it's a bottom up solution, Social Welfare reform is required, minimum wage reduction is required to make it cheaper for employers to take on employees.
The govt needs to subsidise the creation of employment. One relatively quick & cost-effective way is that the cost of prsi should be removed for employers on lower income employees to make it cheaper for companies to create jobs.

I don't think it's feasible to go from a high minimum wage to none but it needs to be reduced to try and engineer growth in the economy.
The other issue is bringing inflation down to reduce the cost of living, of course the rampant profiteering that went on during the CT years and continues to go on needs to be curbed
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1103/1224282560226.html

UsernameInUse

Lockstep wrote: »

Have you *any* sources for these at all?
Your arguments seem to revolve around 'facts' and statements without any substantiation.

Now, if you were saying that having an overly high minimum wage=more unemployment you'd find few opponents. But your unsourced and dubious claims go a lot further than that.

Lock, I'm not trying to persuade people that the minimum wage does harm - this is widely accepted already by economists. I've just got my head around the whole idea and it's a fascinating read.

UsernameInUse

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I love how it is always those on salary's and business owners that say abolish minimum wage. Cop on, people need to have the security of it to try and get through this life. Why should a woman working the till in Tesco's do it for less than she is already!?!

And what about the tens of thousands of people that can't find work because of the minimum wage - they're all over the country on dole queues. You should read how the system works - honestly, I'm on your side.

Dermighty

minidazzler wrote: »

So you get offered 2 euro an hour to wait tables, and depend on Irish people for tips? There is no tipping culture here so it wouldn't work.

I agree. Regards the tipping culture, this is my take on it:

High wages mean people are less likely to tip.

Low wages mean people are more likely to tip.

The "culture" of tipping is related to the wages of the staff. Ireland has high wages, we don't tip, Americans have low wages, they do tip. I don't think it's a coincidence. Obviously people do or do not tip based on their own personal preference too, but in general I think it's just wage related (ie: your perception of how much the waiter/waitress is being paid etc). I do not wan't to spark a conversation about why people tip.

Corruptedmorals

I understand the arguments in favour of lowering minimum wage, but not abolishing it, which would just encourage exploitation- not in retail per se, but definitely pubs and hotels and so on. But It's very easy for someone to say it should be without realising the reality of living off €300 a week or less- IF they get full hours, plenty don't at this time of year, even in companies that don't struggle, but because they're not taking in as much in slow periods, hours get slashed, regardless of the annual turnover. Until the cost of living comes down, lowering it further is nothing short of cruel. It SHOULD echo UK's minimum wage but until the cost of living here is comparable to there, it's not a fair option at all.

Several companies with minimum wage jobs inflict costs on themselves- if they treat their staff like crap, they will leave. Others only offer temp contracts, so that people will never get past probation and have rights. This results in HUGE staff turnovers, and massive amounts of training. Trying to close a shop if all but one member of staff are brand new results in lost money going on wages, as everyone would get out faster if most people were competent, instead of the minority. This was definitely the case where I worked for a few years- turnover sharply increased after the recession, and time spent past closing time greatly increased also. If they were more efficient and actually made staff permanent, costs would have gone down- this in a company which is the largest (and most notorious..) employer in Ireland- around 17,000.

Lockstep

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Lock, I'm not trying to persuade people that the minimum wage does harm - this is widely accepted already by economists. I've just got my head around the whole idea and it's a fascinating read.

The minimum wage *can* cause harm if it's too high but to assume that the minimum wage causes harm is a very blinkered position. Economists like Card, Krueger, Krugman and Stiglitz see the benefits to it. Clinton raised the minimum wage when he was president as economists began to consider that a reasonable minimum wage had benefits that outweighed the deadweight (Labour economist George Borjas is a very good example)
To say that 'the minimum wage does harm' is a very oversimplified viewpoint. To say that this view is 'widely accepted already by economists' is even more silly.



Once again, I'd ask for your sources for the following statement

1. The only workers who benefit from a minimum wage are those who actually earn that higher wage. Raising the minimum wage reduces many workers' job opportunities and working hours.
2. Few minimum-wage earners actually come from poor households.
3. The majority of the poor do not work at all, for any wage, so having the minimum wage does not help them.

Lockstep

UsernameInUse wrote: »

And what about the tens of thousands of people that can't find work because of the minimum wage - they're all over the country on dole queues. You should read how the system works - honestly, I'm on your side.

They can't find work because of years of financial mismanagement, reckless lending, light tough regulation and the stupidity of the banks, government and the financial regulator.
Blaming this largely or even significantly on the minimum wage is extremely silly.

Right now, only 3% of the workforce are on the minimum wage. Even during the boom years this was only 5%. Do you genuinely think that abolishing it would cause large scale employment (ignoring the side effects of lower purchasing power for those on lowest wages and the effects this would have on the local economy)

Nodin

I remember working for less than the scratcher when said scratcher was 60 pound a week......so no, I don't think abolishing the minimum wage is a good idea.

UsernameInUse

Lockstep wrote: »

The minimum wage *can* cause harm if it's too high but to assume that the minimum wage causes harm is a very blinkered position. Economists like Card, Krueger, Krugman and Stiglitz see the benefits to it. Clinton raised the minimum wage when he was president as economists began to consider that a reasonable minimum wage had benefits that outweighed the deadweight (Labour economist George Borjas is a very good example)
To say that 'the minimum wage does harm' is a very oversimplified viewpoint. To say that this view is 'widely accepted already by economists' is even more silly.

Well, it's common sense that those who come from poor backgrounds don't benefit from the minimum wage if their low-marketable skills don't justify employers hire them for the set minimum wage. Now, you have a whole class of people without opportunities because of this law.

A major reason why the minimum wage is such an ineffective anti-poverty tool is that minimum- wage hikes cause businesses to reduce the number of workers they hire and the hours they ask their employees to work. So they're put into the welfare system which is paid for by others who are not wealthy. Many people consider the welfare tax as tax on business, you can't tax business, you can only tax people. And the people who are being taxed in business are not employers, they are employees.

As for the cost of living, it is directly related to the minimum wage and is a cause of inflating prices. The lower the minimum wage, the lower the cost of living. I'm not speaking about slave labour - people have the choice to say no but anyone who sees the minimum wage as a default is missing the point. Why are we protecting one group of individuals at the expense of another more disadvantaged group? By creating an artificial price-tag for work, you are not allowing the market to balance itself out.

As for not finding work because of mis-management - there would be no fiscal problems if Government didn't run businesses distorting the markets. It is one cycle, every little decision affects the next. The Government reduce education funds and then discriminate against those products of their crappy system by enforcing minimum wage laws.

And you have it the opposite way around - abolishing the minimum wage laws will increase the purchasing power of the Irish consumer.

I'm not saying the minimum wage doesn't benefit you personally - people are selfish and want more money, of course, its a basic human instinct - but what we're doing is killing off another class of people. It's immoral and that was the principle I was getting at.

wolfpawnat

UsernameInUse wrote: »

And what about the tens of thousands of people that can't find work because of the minimum wage - they're all over the country on dole queues. You should read how the system works - honestly, I'm on your side.

I am on the Dole Queue, and I would never blame the 3% of the work force on minimum wage. I would blame those on 125,000 a year salaries off the HSE before I would blame them! Also most of those on the dole queue these days are not from low paid jobs, they are mostly law graduates, construction workers, etc!

I'd say it is near impossible to live on €346 a week and getting the motivation to get out the door to work, now it is down 40 already, how will they live at all if the reduce it further?

UsernameInUse

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am on the Dole Queue, and I would never blame the 3% of the work force on minimum wage. I would blame those on 125,000 a year salaries off the HSE before I would blame them! Also most of those on the dole queue these days are not from low paid jobs, they are mostly law graduates, construction workers, etc!

I'd say it is near impossible to live on €346 a week and getting the motivation to get out the door to work, now it is down 40 already, how will they live at all if the reduce it further?

Oh, I agree with you 100%. I don't think the HSE has any business being a government run circus.

Secondly, I'm not blaming anyone or group. It is us, as a society who has done this. And it is difficult to live on that but what you're forgetting is that everything would be reduced if the minimum wage fell. The market balances itself out.