Cabinet ignored Dept of Finance Warnings

Laois_Man

A review of the Department of Finance finds that it warned the Government about economic policy, but was overruled.

An independent review of the performance of the Department of Finance over the past decade has found that the Department did warn the Government about the dangers of the economic policy it was following, but that its advice was overruled by the Cabinet.

The report also says the budget-making process was overwhelmed by programmes for government and social partnership.

This review by independent experts form Canada and Holland looked at the advice the Department provided to Cabinet over the past decade.

Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan welcomed publication of the report, saying: 'It provides a very fair and thoughtful assessment of the Department's performance over the past ten years.'

The report found the Department of Finance was aware of the dangers of the Government's procyclical economic policy of increasing spending and cutting taxes - and of the overheating of the property and construction sectors, and of the vulnerability of the tax system to a downturn.

The report says the Department did provide clear warnings on the risks of the Government's policy, and that its advice was more direct and comprehensive than concerns expressed by others in Ireland or abroad.

But it found that in every year except 2003 the Cabinet increased spending above the levels advised by the Department.

It says there was an extraordinary public expectation for more spending, and that the budget process was completely overwhelmed by social partnership and Government programmes committing to cut taxes and increase spending.

It says that instead of being an appropriate framework for prioritising spending claims, the Budget simply paid the bills for these dominant processes.

The report faults the Department for not increasing the volume and stridency of its warnings as time went on.

It calls for big changes to the way budget information is prepared, published and independently assessed.

taken from RTE.ie

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

medici

Ashamed to say I'm not the least bit surprised by this.

godtabh

Party before country. Who saw that coming!

Tora Bora

The buckos, in the DOF, are past masters at leaking info which suits their purposes and their political masters purposes.
Why on earth didn't they leak the warnings they were giving to their economically illiterate political masters:(

ilovesleep

It just goes to show that they ignored these warnings for power and to line their own pockets of course. The poctets of Berties developer mates too.
Please tell me, do you think people who brought this country to ruins - bertie, the financial regulator, the bankers, etc - will be locked up for negligence for what they have done.

Cookie_Monster

Minister/Cabinet asks dept / consultant for report
Report undertaken
Minister does not like report
Report ignored and Minister/Cabinet goes ahead with plan anyway

It's not surprising in the least tbh and happens frequently I imagine.

munchkin_utd

and from the year 2000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM

P. Breathnach

Tora Bora wrote: »

The buckos, in the DOF, are past masters at leaking info which suits their purposes and their political masters purposes.
Why on earth didn't they leak the warnings they were giving to their economically illiterate political masters:(

That post represents the sort of problem we have with public discourse in Ireland. We have a researched and considered report drawn up by a team of specialists, and it is casually swatted aside by an anonymous internet poster who professes to know better.

The members of the panel were:

- Mr Rob Wright is Chairman of the Group. He has 35 years of economic policy and management experience in the Public Service of Canada, over twenty years of which was at the Deputy Minister (Secretary General) level, most recently as Deputy Minister of Finance.
- Mr Hans Borstlap, was Director-General at the Ministry for Social Affairs and Employment and for many years a member of the Central Economic Commission. He was the first Chairman of the Employment and Labour Market Committee of the EU. He is currently a member of the Council of State and provides advice to the Government on the annual Budget in this role.
- Mr John Malone is a former Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture and Food.

I'll take their judgement ahead of that of Tora Bora.

fliball123

Surely there must be someway of getting these cnuts that done this legally ..if they were told about this by the dof ...surely someone has to brought to justice..

munchkin_utd

fliball123 wrote: »

Surely there must be someway of getting these cnuts that done this legally ..if they were told about this by the dof ...surely someone has to brought to justice..

there is,
they are no longer in power. !!!!

Before this election you (the residents of Ireland) have voted the baaaaastards in again and again and again .

we (the emigrants) have watched agahst as this whole mess was unfolding but were powerless to do anything. As obviously the only way to remove dodgy corrupt politicans is to vote them out, which we CANNOT do.

anyhow, thats another (dozen) threads but thats democracy! You get who you vote for!

femur61

I wondered why the report was made available 4 days after the election, wondering it have had any effect on outgoing TD's pensions but no it wouldn't. We as a nation are pussycats.

dan_d

The other story that's out on this is here.

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/19310296/

Which possibly calls into question any advice that may have been offered.

No though, they should have shouted louder.They're supposedly the experienced people. I suppose the problem is that they aren't accountable to anyone, so all they did was issue their warnings, and sat back. We seem to be back at this accountability thing again.

westtip

dan_d wrote: »

The other story that's out on this is here.

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/19310296/

Which possibly calls into question any advice that may have been offered.

No though, they should have shouted louder.They're supposedly the experienced people. I suppose the problem is that they aren't accountable to anyone, so all they did was issue their warnings, and sat back. We seem to be back at this accountability thing again.

They are civil servants they are not allowed to divulge the advice they have given ministers. We live in a democracy, civil servants advise politicians and politicians take the decisions. Of course this is a complete outrage that this is what happened and when those liars such as Aherne, Cowen and Lenihan say they never saw it coming they were lying - the biggest liar turns out to be Martin though why didn't he resign from cabinet when these warnings were been given.

Tora Bora

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That post represents the sort of problem we have with public discourse in Ireland. We have a researched and considered report drawn up by a team of specialists, and it is casually swatted aside by an anonymous internet poster who professes to know better.

The members of the panel were:


I'll take their judgement ahead of that of Tora Bora.

What I was actually saying, or asking, was why on earth didn't the guys in DOF who gave warnings to the minister, leak the info when the clown minister would not listen or act!!

I was not actually doubting the accuracy of the new report and I was not doubting that the mandarins on DOF actually told the minister(s) to wake up.
I was just asking why they didn't make more public noise, via the age old civil service method of leaking to the media.

Floppybits

Bit more in the Irish Times here

Budget warnings were 'overruled' by ministers

I know FF have gone but they do have a lot to answer for and I think that those involved should be made to answer for the decisions that they made instead of being allowed to crawl back under the rock from whence they came.

FF as an opposition party have no creditability at all, how can anyone in that party stand up and criticise any decision that the new government is going to make?

P. Breathnach

Tora Bora wrote: »

What I was actually saying, or asking, was why on earth didn't the guys in DOF who gave warnings to the minister, leak the info when the clown minister would not listen or act!!

I was not actually doubting the accuracy of the new report and I was not doubting that the mandarins on DOF actually told the minister(s) to wake up.
I was just asking why they didn't make more public noise, via the age old civil service method of leaking to the media.

You said significantly more than that. You said

The buckos, in the DOF, are past masters at leaking info which suits their purposes and their political masters purposes.

That is an implication that the DoF has been politicised. And you delivered it in the style of a throw-away line, as if it were an established fact.

Given the number of people in the Civil Service and the sort of stuff they deal with, the amount leaked is impressively small. That applies to staff at senior and junior levels, and in all Departments. There is widespread acceptance of the idea that a Department works to the Minister.

It is worth noting that the report effectively affirms that relationship in recommending that

policy advice to the Minister for Finance in the preparation of the Government’s Budget should not be subject to release under Freedom of Information for at least five years.

Fr Tod Umptious

The report also says the budget-making process was overwhelmed by programmes for government and social partnership.

Social Partnership - the scariest line in this report.

In the next government FG have to put a curb on labour trying to resurrect this failed socialist policy.

Mr.Micro

This report comes out now after the election :rolleyes:

It goes to show what happens when you get Auctioneers, developers, cronies all linked to the cabinet. Add to this a cabinet of financial ineptitudes not willing or able to listen to the experts. It is no wonder our country was driven into the ground. Then we had bleatings from Ahern and Cowen saying nobody told us. Its only a pity there are still 20 of the FF disasters elected......20 too many. It would have been great to have had this report for Meehole and the live debates.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

coylemj

The whole country was party to the orgy of tax cuts and increased public spending, we re-elected FF in 2002 and 2007 in the full knowledge that public sector spending was getting out of control but when you're at a party and the gargle is flowing freely, who's going to stand up and remind everyone that there's bound to be a hangover in the morning?

We're all to blame, we just sacked the FF lot last week because they happened to be in power when the sh1te hit the fan, FG and Labour wouldn't have done things much differently.

Idbatterim

No one told me!

yosemite_sam

Laois_Man wrote: »

taken from RTE.ie

Mountjoy for the guilty and strip them of all entitlements

Sand

@westtip

They are civil servants they are not allowed to divulge the advice they have given ministers. We live in a democracy, civil servants advise politicians and politicians take the decisions. Of course this is a complete outrage that this is what happened and when those liars such as Aherne, Cowen and Lenihan say they never saw it coming they were lying - the biggest liar turns out to be Martin though why didn't he resign from cabinet when these warnings were been given.

And that culture of secrecy clearly failed to properly inform either the Dail, or the electorate - the ultimate decision making bodies - or to properly guide the Cabinet. The civil service failed in its purpose of ensuring the policymaking process wasnt overwhelmed by populist pressures. Root and branch reform is required - especially cultural change.

galwayrush

Wish we could charge the people responsible with at least a charge of gross stupidity and incompetency, and at least take their pensions and golden hand shakes off them.,

heyjude

Mr.Micro wrote: »

This report comes out now after the election :rolleyes:

Not surprised by the contents of the report or the timing of its release(after the election), but it does nail down once and for all, that the final excuse given by Fianna Fail for our current situation, namely that nobody warned them of the consequences and risks arising from the decisions they were making, is utterly untrue and that not only were leading independent economists warning them but they were also (as this report confirms) being warned by Dept of Finance officials(warnings that they chose,to our huge cost, to ignore).

peasant

Sand wrote: »

@westtip


And that culture of secrecy clearly failed to properly inform either the Dail, or the electorate - the ultimate decision making bodies - or to properly guide the Cabinet. The civil service failed in its purpose of ensuring the policymaking process wasnt overwhelmed by populist pressures. Root and branch reform is required - especially cultural change.

Indeed

Question is will the new governement have the gumption to implement this change ...starting perhaps by taking those into regress that (now provably) lied to the public for years?
These people should not be let walk away with massive pensions

galwayrush

If only someone had told Bertie...

Seth Brundle

Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something.

snickerpuss

It's heartening that the civil servants in the dept of finance are apparently not a complete bunch of idiots and could see what was happening. Sadly, I'm not a bit suprised that the ministers etc took no notice. What's the point of having the dept in that case?!

stephentbb2000

TREASON.................................

McDave

Far too little.

Way too late.

Mr.Micro

snickerpuss wrote: »

It's heartening that the civil servants in the dept of finance are apparently not a complete bunch of idiots and could see what was happening. Sadly, I'm not a bit suprised that the ministers etc took no notice. What's the point of having the dept in that case?!

Agree. When we get a crowd of idiots sitting at a cabinet table who would not know one end of an economic chart from another not taking advice.....these idiots should be liable and the only punishment is they get run out of office with big pensions.

P. Breathnach

snickerpuss wrote: »

It's heartening that the civil servants in the dept of finance are apparently not a complete bunch of idiots and could see what was happening. Sadly, I'm not a bit suprised that the ministers etc took no notice. What's the point of having the dept in that case?!

Most Ministers (whatever their party, whatever the department) do give considerable weight to Department advice. It is expected, and generally achieved, that the Department actually advises the Minister on the best mechanisms to accomplish the policy objectives set down by the Minister. It is a collaborative process.

Where the Minister wishes to pursue a policy that might have future consequences that are worrying, the Department would point that out. Similarly, the Department might point out why a particular policy decision might not work because of a misfit with other policy.

In sum, the Department helps a Minister achieve policy objectives, but warns of problems that might be associated with that policy.

I have commented here in the past that Charlie McCreevy was said to derive satisfaction from going against Department advice. It might be noted that the Wright Report goes back to his days as Minister for Finance.

Laminations

Well let me be the first to retract some of my more scathing outbursts against the competence of DOF staff. I'll qualify that 'apology' with the reminder that the thrust of my criticism concerned transparency within the department and accountability at ministerial levels for decisions (which we were being told was based on the best advice from the dept). This criticism still stands. I think legislation brought in front of the Dail should include a brief reference to advice sought and given. Even a simple stamp of ADA- against departmental advice would allow the public discern the rationale for passing certain bills, based on best advice or for political agenda

Laminations

I'd also like to add to the voices saying this is a disgrace that this report was not released before the election. Whatever about departmental protocol on secrecy, when ministers are spouting lies about acting on the best advice and getting no warnings, we need some whistleblower legislation that allows CS staff report to the media anonymously through a trusted channel. They should be allowed prevent political stunt pulling like the kind FF have been pulling for the past 4 years

andrewdeerpark

I see this from another totally different angle.

Senior civil servants trying to ensure their continued reign by p***ing on FF. Don’s blame us we said it was all going to end in tears etc. Can we keep our jobs …..

This is a load of rubbish the new government needs to fire ALL the senior civil servants in their respective departments (especially Finance and whoever included Anglo Irish in the blanket guarantee) or am I just cynical.

Remember people top civil service view themselves as the real masters of the country, they need a shake up similar to what happens in the private sector when a new CEO arrives on the scene.

Mr.Micro

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

I see this from another totally different angle.

Senior civil servants trying to ensure their continued reign by p***ing on FF. Don’s blame us we said it was all going to end in tears etc. Can we keep our jobs …..

This is a load of rubbish the new government needs to fire ALL the senior civil servants in their respective departments (especially Finance and whoever included Anglo Irish in the blanket guarantee) or am I just cynical.

Remember people top civil service view themselves as the real masters of the country, they need a shake up similar to what happens in the private sector when a new CEO arrives on the scene.

The DoF were clearly doing their jobs but the FF cabinet were clearly not doing theirs in taking the advice and acting on it, grossly negligent as it turned out. The only criticism of the DoF was apparently that it should have been more vociferous in it warnings as time passed.....not that the likes of the former dictator in the making Biffo would have listened.

Ray Burkes Pension

The report is dated December 2010. It's obvious Fianna Fail have sat on this report for 2 months.

Bullseye1

The Canadian person who is responsible for this report indicated on both RTE and Newstalk that the Civil Servents are not innocent in all of this. When it suits them they leak this kind of stuff to the media.

meemeep

yet another angle on this:

There were plenty of warnings out there from the ESRI and other "experts" who were wheeled in by the media on a regular basis. So those of you calling "Treason" and "Mountjoy" - why not extend that to the idiots who took mortgages they could never repay, covering not only their main house but the holiday house too. So the B(w)ankers who encouraged them are culpable, as are the individuals, who fell for this bull**** and borrowed way beyond their, and now their children's means.

This mess is on everyone - very few of us are exempt.

Am I lucky because only 1 of us has lost our job? Yes. Am I lucky because we can still pay our mortgage? No - that's not luck. That's listening to the expert advice and not the "advice" of the bank manager who wanted to sell us a mortgage twice the size of the one we wanted, the one we knew was realistic, and the one we knew we could afford, and having read the warnings in the contract that say clearly - "You will lose your house if you cannot make the repayments". Suddenly - that clause is not enforceable??

Scofflaw

snickerpuss wrote: »

It's heartening that the civil servants in the dept of finance are apparently not a complete bunch of idiots and could see what was happening. Sadly, I'm not a bit suprised that the ministers etc took no notice. What's the point of having the dept in that case?!

Sadly, this is exactly what happens in many other situations. A good example is the Common Fisheries Policy, where the politicians regularly set the quotas about 25% over what the scientists regard as the maximum sustainable catch.

cordially,
Scofflaw

andrewdeerpark

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The DoF were clearly doing their jobs but the FF cabinet were clearly not doing theirs in taking the advice and acting on it, grossly negligent as it turned out. The only criticism of the DoF was apparently that it should have been more vociferous in it warnings as time passed.....not that the likes of the former dictator in the making Biffo would have listened.

My critique is explicit Brian Lenihan was bounced into guaranteeing Anglo Irish Bank the night of Sep 2008 and the DOF were doing the bouncing. On the night of greatest pearl to our state his own officials deserted him these faceless bureaucrats, why should they keep their job when he is gone and their anonymity.

TOP CIVIL service heads have to roll next.

P. Breathnach

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

My critique is explicit Brian Lenihan was bounced into guaranteeing Anglo Irish Bank the night of Sep 2008 and the DOF were doing the bouncing....

Everything that I have read and heard suggests otherwise.

If you want to make a case for holding civil servants responsible and for firing them, you need a bit of evidence in support of your claim.

andrewdeerpark

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Everything that I have read and heard suggests otherwise.

If you want to make a case for holding civil servants responsible and for firing them, you need a bit of evidence in support of your claim.

Lets publish the minutes of all meetings and all diaries of top officials involved and the let the public decide, Irish wikileaks.

Scofflaw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Everything that I have read and heard suggests otherwise.

If you want to make a case for holding civil servants responsible and for firing them, you need a bit of evidence in support of your claim.

I have to agree - everything suggests that the DoF gave appropriate advice, if not forcefully enough, and were ignored in favour of the clamour from the banks.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bullseye1

Didnt you hear most civil/public servants are advised not to sign any document in case it incriminates them. I've been told by a number of friends working in local authorities that they never sign off on anything in case they get blamed. Your also more likely to progress up the promotion ladder as a result. Also told this by same people.

andrewdeerpark

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Didnt you hear most civil/public servants are advised not to sign any document in case it incriminates them. I've been told by a number of friends working in local authorities that they never sign off on anything in case they get blamed. Your also more likely to progress up the promotion ladder as a result. Also told this by same people.

Cover thy ass at all times. That is the civil service motto. Plus if you are useless at a job instead of being fired you will be promoted out of it because its almost impossible to be fired in the public service.

CoalBucket

The report has not been leaked but published by I assume the government.

However having read the report, it was forwarded to the Minister for Finance in early december. Why does it take until march to publish the report. I find it extremely convenient from the FF/Government and in particular Brian Lenihan that it was released 3 days after the general election.

Bullseye1

Is this information available to the opposition? If not why? Surely all Dail members should be entitled to this information.

P. Breathnach

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Lets publish the minutes of all meetings and all diaries of top officials involved and the let the public decide, Irish wikileaks.

I interpret that as meaning that you have nothing to back up your claims.