just when you think FF cant get any lower they do this

Floppybits

As a last kick to the Irish people by the Fianna Fail party, ex minister Pat Carey sneaks into the Dail, on the day we all go to vote this shower out of office, and signs in new legislation on the Corrib gas pipeline. This is an absolute disgrace what he has done and he should be made explain why he did this on election day. The FF party leader Michael Martin should also be made explain why this was done on that day. :mad:

Below is a link to the article in todays indo.

Pat Carey sneaks into Dail to get shell gas pipe the go ahead

Sorry if there is another thread on this but I couldn't find one.

3DataModem

Maybe because he was the democratically elected minister at the time, and felt it was the best thing for the country?

3DataModem

3DataModem wrote: »

Maybe because he was the democratically elected minister at the time, and felt it was the best thing for the country?

Sure what was Lenihan's reason for not lashing another load of cash into the banks again

Pal

He's hardly sneaking in. He works there.

chrislynch8

IS that not his job until the new Dail is formed??????

danbohan

Pal wrote: »

He's hardly sneaking in. He works there.

works ? , this country is an outstanding reflection of his and his friends "work"

chrislynch8

RoverJames wrote: »

Sure what was Lenihan's reason for not lashing another load of cash into the banks again

Being a coward, if he had dump more money into the Banks as he was ment to then he would not have been re-elected.

Surely Lenihan was covering himself here..

By Lenihan's thinking no Minister should have been doing anything for the last 4 to 8 weeks.

Floppybits

Then why did he leave this to the day of the election. There seems to have been no hurry on this and has been around for a while now, so why did he have to do it on the day of the election when all eyes were on the election? Why not do as Lenihan had done and leave that till the new government is formed, unless there is something to hide?

astrofool

Did FG/Lab say they were going to change/obstruct the Shell deal?

Did FG/Lab say they would take a different approach with the banks?

The S2S protestors are utterly deluded at this stage that the pipeline will not go ahead, it's happening, those in government will allow the planning for it to go ahead, and finally, we'll start supplying some of our own gas from Corrib.

Riskymove

just to be pedantic

He did not need to be in anywhere near the Dáil to do this and probably was not there

he could sign an order, as Minister, anywhere

as the article menetions, the next Minister of the Environment will oversee the foreshore licence request

Cookie_Monster

EPA are already planning an objection based on Eu legislation of protected areas or something similar according to Newtalk at lunch time. So not over yet.

Mal-Adjusted

I don't see how this action can be defensible. Lenihan stopped the cash flow to Anglo because "We didn't have a mandate from the people" by this logic, nobody in the outgoing government should have been doing any legislating! :mad:

This just proves one of two things:
1. FF are in the pocket of business and made it handy for their friends before being shown the door.

2. Lenihan's claim was purely a political stunt, knowing that FG and LAB will have to give the cash over, and FF can berate them from the opposition.

jmayo

Floppybits wrote: »

As a last kick to the Irish people by the Fianna Fail party, ex minister Pat Carey sneaks into the Dail, on the day we all go to vote this shower out of office, and signs in new legislation on the Corrib gas pipeline. This is an absolute disgrace what he has done and he should be made explain why he did this on election day. The FF party leader Michael Martin should also be made explain why this was done on that day. :mad:

Below is a link to the article in todays indo.

Pat Carey sneaks into Dail to get shell gas pipe the go ahead

Sorry if there is another thread on this but I couldn't find one.

Well it wouldn't be the first time a ffer had signed in some new legislation at the last minute that had huge consequences.

Remember michael religious woods and bertie decided to give the church almost a free pass on their child abuse costs ?

Remember dick "gone but not forgotten" roache signing in legislation about Tara bypass ?

astrofool wrote: »

Did FG/Lab say they were going to change/obstruct the Shell deal?

Did FG/Lab say they would take a different approach with the banks?

The S2S protestors are utterly deluded at this stage that the pipeline will not go ahead, it's happening, those in government will allow the planning for it to go ahead, and finally, we'll start supplying some of our own gas from Corrib.

Ohh yeah won't that be great, we will be getting our own gas and paying full market rates for the priviledge as well. :rolleyes:

The bloody gas might as well be coming from Russia for all it really matters to most of the consumers.

gcgirl

You do realise John A Costello declared Ireland a Republic with out any meeting with cabinet in 1949 and he was in Canada

HarryPotter41

gcgirl wrote: »

You do realise John A Costello declared Ireland a Republic with out any meeting with cabinet in 1949 and he was in Canada

Oh just let them rant on, it made a shower of rain here today, I blame the outgoing FF cabinet for that.

HarryPotter41

Floppybits wrote: »

As a last kick to the Irish people by the Fianna Fail party, ex minister Pat Carey sneaks into the Dail, on the day we all go to vote this shower out of office, and signs in new legislation on the Corrib gas pipeline. This is an absolute disgrace what he has done and he should be made explain why he did this on election day. The FF party leader Michael Martin should also be made explain why this was done on that day. :mad:

Below is a link to the article in todays indo.

Pat Carey sneaks into Dail to get shell gas pipe the go ahead

Sorry if there is another thread on this but I couldn't find one.

Read the article, your half hysteric headline bears no resemblance to the article.

whatstherush

jmayo wrote: »

Ohh yeah won't that be great, we will be getting our own gas and paying full market rates for the priviledge as well. :rolleyes:

The bloody gas might as well be coming from Russia for all it really matters to most of the consumers.

So you think if the Irish state was extracting the gas, they wouldn't be charging us the full market rate? Your having a laugh!

jmayo

whatstherush wrote: »

So you think if the Irish state was extracting the gas, they wouldn't be charging us the full market rate?

No if the Irish state was extracting the gas we would get it circa 2030 but we would at least actually be getting some of the high market rate retail price back into the state coffers.

whatstherush wrote: »

Your having a laugh!

No if I was a Shell shareholder or one of those hired by Shell, then I might be having a laugh.
As neither but just a citizen there isn't much to laugh at.

gcgirl

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Oh just let them rant on, it made a shower of rain here today, I blame the outgoing FF cabinet for that.

Funny thing Pat Rabbitt said this morning it's been sunny since FF and the greens have been ousted

Floppybits

whatstherush wrote: »

So you think if the Irish state was extracting the gas, they wouldn't be charging us the full market rate? Your having a laugh!

Grand they can charge us full market rate, at least it will be going back into the state and not into shell and their shareholders pockets.

Also we could have exported that gas as well and made even more money.

Floppybits

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Read the article, your half hysteric headline bears no resemblance to the article.

I am entitled to my opinion of what I think of this ex-minister and ex-politician signing in legislation the day of an election, regardless of whether it is hysteric or whatever, I am still entitled to it, Just as you are entitled to think that he is in entitled to do it and did it in good faith and for the good of the country, which should be in forefront of every persons mind who is in government.

purple_hatstand

whatstherush wrote: »

So you think if the Irish state was extracting the gas, they wouldn't be charging us the full market rate? Your having a laugh!

Erm....surely it would have been better if the State had secured control of its own natural resources rather than selling them to multi-nationals with a view to buying back the end product at international market rates later?

Whatever thoughts one has about S2S etc..., the fact this was done on Election Day has the whiff of something seriously dodgy about it...

professore

purple_hatstand wrote: »

Erm....surely it would have been better if the State had secured control of its own natural resources rather than selling them to multi-nationals with a view to buying back the end product at international market rates later?

Whatever thoughts one has about S2S etc..., the fact this was done on Election Day has the whiff of something seriously dodgy about it...

First I agree it stinks that he signed this on the day of the election.

However this natural resources thing is such a red herring. They need multinationals to find the stuff - if it is even there - and get it out of the ground. Once some is found, we can tax later finds at a more appropriate level.

Our fisheries, now that's another story. That's a proven resource that Enda & co should threaten to take back if the EU don't play ball.

HarryPotter41

gcgirl wrote: »

Funny thing Pat Rabbitt said this morning it's been sunny since FF and the greens have been ousted

Well hes wrong, he should come to Mayo. Then again, maybe he shouldn't.

HarryPotter41

Floppybits wrote: »

I am entitled to my opinion of what I think of this ex-minister and ex-politician signing in legislation the day of an election, regardless of whether it is hysteric or whatever, I am still entitled to it, Just as you are entitled to think that he is in entitled to do it and did it in good faith and for the good of the country, which should be in forefront of every persons mind who is in government.

I don't recall at any stage saying you were not entitled to your opinion. I would question the correctness of its portrayal as the original article states nothing about sneaking and it certainly doesn't say anything about the Dail. Ministers have Department Buildings where they do most of their work. And as stated by another poster he could have signed it anywhere.

HarryPotter41

professore wrote: »

First I agree it stinks that he signed this on the day of the election.

However this natural resources thing is such a red herring. They need multinationals to find the stuff - if it is even there - and get it out of the ground. Once some is found, we can tax later finds at a more appropriate level.

Our fisheries, now that's another story. That's a proven resource that Enda & co should threaten to take back if the EU don't play ball.

I agree, I believe 20 years ago Shell were the only company with the technology to extract this particular find and that if they didn't get the deal they did it could have stayed there for all they cared. All companies have the technology now so this should be dealt with differently again.

I agree totally on fishing, one of the major drawbacks of being in the EU is the way our fishing grounds have been pillaged by other European fishermen to the detriment of our own and someone needs to fight back.

Jimmy Garlic

When I think of what Norway did to develop an infrastructure to deal with their own resources and how they used the proceeds to improve their country it makes me feel ashamed of Irelands sleveen political establishment and what they have done to this country.
Norway is comparable to Ireland, similar population and when they set about building up their oil and gas industry they had a small industrial base and were underdeveloped economically, look at Norway now!. Ireland is a pathetic joke, an international laughing stock, and a soft touch for parasitic corporations like Shell.

Padraig Mor

purple_hatstand wrote: »

the fact this was done on Election Day has the whiff of something seriously dodgy about it...

Does it? Maybe he signed off all the remaining legislation on the table that day, maybe 10, 20, who knows how many pieces of legislation. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. Do you?

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Norway is comparable to Ireland,

Ireland is in no way comparable to Norway when it comes to oil and gas, except for the fact that Norway offered similar terms to Ireland early on in its 'career'.

astrofool

Floppybits wrote: »

Grand they can charge us full market rate, at least it will be going back into the state and not into shell and their shareholders pockets.

Also we could have exported that gas as well and made even more money.

Corrib won't supply Ireland's gas, let alone enough for exporting, it makes us slightly less dependent on Russia for a few years, then it's gone.

If we had proven reserves, it would be worth setting up our own company (well, even then I'd go private, given Ireland's crappy public service), and going the same route as Norway, but we don't, at all.

And the messing we're doing with Corrib (which is really down to paying off a bunch of farmers, and watercannoning a few rent-a-mob eco-freaks) is not going to entice anyone to try and find anything off the coast of Ireland for a good while yet.

purple_hatstand

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Does it? Maybe he signed off all the remaining legislation on the table that day, maybe 10, 20, who knows how many pieces of legislation. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. Do you?......

I don't know for sure, no; but until I'm satisfied this was part of the normal 'desk-clearing' process undertaken by an outgoing Minister, I will remain suspicious.

cheesey1

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Well hes wrong, he should come to Mayo. Then again, maybe he shouldn't.

don't know what part of Mayo you are in but where I am its been sunny since early Saturday morning!

vallo

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Ireland is in no way comparable to Norway when it comes to oil and gas, except for the fact that Norway offered similar terms to Ireland early on in its 'career'.

I was curious about this so I looked it up (just wiki, so open to correction).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Norway
Seems they started looking for oil in the mid 60s, then found oil in 69, then established state ownership and management by 1972.
We discovered gas (or rather Marathon Corp did in 1971) off the coast of Cork. Forty years later we are still relying on foreign multinationals to find gas and (according to my son's geography book) the Irish state get's 10% of the profits. That doesn't seem like a great deal.

Padraig Mor

vallo wrote: »

I was curious about this so I looked it up (just wiki, so open to correction).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Norway
Seems they started looking for oil in the mid 60s, then found oil in 69, then established state ownership and management by 1972.
We discovered gas (or rather Marathon Corp did in 1971) off the coast of Cork. Forty years later we are still relying on foreign multinationals to find gas and (according to my son's geography book) the Irish state get's 10% of the profits. That doesn't seem like a great deal.

There's one rather large difference - they founds lots and lots more gas/oil in Norway. In Ireland, we found **** all until Corrib (and since), and even that isn't exactly a whopper.

Mr.Micro

They should get the exterminators in to the Dail and fumigate the place after the FF filth that has been there for the last 14 years.

vallo

Padraig Mor wrote: »

There's one rather large difference - they founds lots and lots more gas/oil in Norway. In Ireland, we found **** all until Corrib (and since), and even that isn't exactly a whopper.

Granted, but you intimated that the Norwegians had let foreign multinationals in to harvest the natural resources of the country the way that we have been doing.
They didn't.
They took state control and have been saving up money for future pensions etc since the 1970s.

HarryPotter41

cheesey1 wrote: »

don't know what part of Mayo you are in but where I am its been sunny since early Saturday morning!

You live beside Enda Kennys house don't ya??

HarryPotter41

vallo wrote: »

I was curious about this so I looked it up (just wiki, so open to correction).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Norway
Seems they started looking for oil in the mid 60s, then found oil in 69, then established state ownership and management by 1972.
We discovered gas (or rather Marathon Corp did in 1971) off the coast of Cork. Forty years later we are still relying on foreign multinationals to find gas and (according to my son's geography book) the Irish state get's 10% of the profits. That doesn't seem like a great deal.

There is one massive difference between Norways oil and gas and the Corrib Gas field. The depths at which commercial exploration was possible in the Norwegian Sea were low and possible by many commerical companies at the time which helped allow Norway dictate terms. The deepest field in Norway at the moment is around a kilometre underground.

Comapre that to the Corrib find which is between 3.5 and 4km underground. Shell were only willing to go that deep with a good contract and as they were the only firm with the technology willing to take the project onboard it was take it or leave it.

While the sentiment is correct and understandable that we should not be giving away our resources liek this, the reality is that the gas could still be underground where no benefit could be gained from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Sea
http://www.offshore-technology.com/projects/corrib/

jimmycrackcorm

I find it somewhat amusing that the objectors to shell all complain about our natural resources being taken from us but are shy to suggest that we as a country create an oil prospecting company to get the oil ourselves.

Of course the answer is that we are not able to do so. We need the oil/gas companies to do this and without somewhat advantageous terms for them they will never do so.

Jimmy Garlic

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Of course the answer is that we are not able to do so. We need the oil/gas companies to do this and without somewhat advantageous terms for them they will never do so.

"somewhat advantageous terms"?, that's an understatement, it was practically a gift to shell.

Floppybits

Seems that I wasn't the only one that thought this was an underhand act by the outgoing minister.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0301/1224291080638.html

HarryPotter41

Floppybits wrote: »

Seems that I wasn't the only one that thought this was an underhand act by the outgoing minister.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0301/1224291080638.html

Joe Higgins, Sinn Fein, Pobail Chill Chomainn. Right. Was he meant to issue a press release to say he was going to sign it? See what people said when he did that? Was he to leave it until the incoming government signed it?

vallo

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

There is one massive difference between Norways oil and gas and the Corrib Gas field. The depths at which commercial exploration was possible in the Norwegian Sea were low and possible by many commerical companies at the time which helped allow Norway dictate terms. The deepest field in Norway at the moment is around a kilometre underground.

Comapre that to the Corrib find which is between 3.5 and 4km underground. Shell were only willing to go that deep with a good contract and as they were the only firm with the technology willing to take the project onboard it was take it or leave it.

While the sentiment is correct and understandable that we should not be giving away our resources liek this, the reality is that the gas could still be underground where no benefit could be gained from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Sea
http://www.offshore-technology.com/projects/corrib/

That may be true for Corrib, but the original find in Kinsale was much shallower and more easily accessible. Water depth 100m and gas located 1km under that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsale_Head_gas_field
Just saying, we had options way back then.

HarryPotter41

vallo wrote: »

That may be true for Corrib, but the original find in Kinsale was much shallower and more easily accessible. Water depth 100m and gas located 1km under that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsale_Head_gas_field
Just saying, we had options way back then.

And to my understanding no longer viable and has no real relevance to Corrib.

vallo

Who said it had to be anything to do with corrib - this tangent is a discussion comparing the paths taken by Ireland and Norway in exploiting their natural resources from the 70s.
The line of argument started in post 28/29 - where it was suggested that during Norway's early career in oil they behaved the same way Ireland is behaving now. That isn't true. The Kinsale gas was not as inaccessible as the Corrib gas so we can't use the argument that the depth of resources is an excuse for not having an Irish equivalent to the Norwegian state system.
We are now way off the original topic.

Back on topic - I agree wholeheartedly that there should be no signings of controversial bills during the dying days of a regime.

rodento

So as a matter of interest just how many anti corrib pipeline TD's were voted in in Mayo

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

yosemite_sam

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I find it somewhat amusing that the objectors to shell all complain about our natural resources being taken from us but are shy to suggest that we as a country create an oil prospecting company to get the oil ourselves.

Of course the answer is that we are not able to do so. We need the oil/gas companies to do this and without somewhat advantageous terms for them they will never do so.

I live in the region, and from what I have seen the work has all been subbed out. Shell hire specialists in and they do the work, but they have the expertise in managing the project.

yosemite_sam

rodento wrote: »

So as a matter of interest just how many anti corrib pipeline TD's were voted in in Mayo

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The pipeline will effect a small number of people, so it would not really be an issue for the electorate in Mayo. I remember a radio show saying that FG party debt in the 90's was paid off by an oil company, I don't know how true that is maybe someone could deny or confirm it

rodento

Ok, how many local councillors that have been voted in that are anti corrib:eek:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dale Parish

How dare he rush legislation through which will help our economy, bring in lots of money and fund the Irish run business building the gas pipe!
What an a***hole.

Jimmy Garlic

Dale Parish wrote: »

How dare he rush legislation through which will help our economy, bring in lots of money and fund the Irish run business building the gas pipe!
What an a***hole.

It will help shell, the Irish economy comes a very distant second. Some people are happy to receive crumbs from the table, that was always a problem in Ireland. Too many cap clutching peasants defending their lords in the big house.