Off topic discussion about God/Islam/Questions...

Dades

MOVED THIS DISCUSSION TO A NEW THREAD!

dead one wrote: »

That's what majority of christian are doing and Same case is applied to Muslims. So majority of atheist are doing the same thing, they don't research but follow other people's writing...

On the contrary, most atheists will have broken away from at least one religion.
That no other religion offers any evidence of being true is not their fault.

dead one

Dades wrote: »

On the contrary, most atheists will have broken away from at least one religion.
That no other religion offers any evidence of being true is not their fault.

Sir, Dades, i also wanted evidence as you said but To see evidence you have to open eyes of your heart, You can't see the evidence with ordinary eyes.. Suppose religion says believe in one God and you say i want "evidence" where is that God. The evidence are God's words which speaks. You want to see God, As a researcher i believe word of Quran are not from human, Because i have studied many other books, like bible,talmud,vedas but the truth speaks itself in quran. I am neutral to all these books.

Why you can't see God, evidence is
The eyesight cannot reach Him* and He can reach the vision (power of seeing).
Translation of: Ayah 113, Surat AlAn'am.

You want evidence who is still holding the earth in this vast universe for what purpose and who helps people. Why earth don't leave its oribit, Why earth is still safe in the vast universe.

Who answers the call of the needy person if he calls Allah? And who removes the disaster, and makes you inheritants of earth. Still you make another god with Allah? You remember only a little.
Translation of: Ayah 62, Surat AlNaml.

What does God want us to contemplate on and think of?

Evidence is """Walk on earth and see into how creation started, then Allah will make the last creation because Allah is Capable of doing everything.
Translation of: Ayah 20 from Surat AlAnkaboot""

When and who can look at Allah?
evidence
No! But you you like the hasty life (This Life) and leave behind The Last Life. Faces will be that Day beaming (bright and beautiful) looking towards their God; And faces will be that Day frowning (fearful) thinking of a backbone breaking calamity that will be inflicted on them.
Translation of: Ayat 20 - 25, Surat AlQiyamah.

Philosophers and scientists have many concepts of life and death. A vast amount of superstition as well as imaginative and psychological literature has grown about life and death. But the simplest and the truest religious concept are stated here in few words. And, there is only one fact about death that is stated in the Quran as follows:

Surah 67, Ayah 2 "He Who created death and life, that He may try which of you is best in deed"

Sir dade no atheist will answer you what is soul, What is death, what is life, why we are here, only one true religion will tell.

So can you Answer my these question?

1. What is Soul?
2. What is death?
3. Who sent us on the world?
4. Where are the souls of those people who lived once on earth etc.

Dades

dead one wrote: »

Sir, Dades, i also wanted evidence as you said but To see evidence you have to open eyes of your heart, You can't see the evidence with ordinary eyes.

My heart doesn't have eyes, it has ventricles.

Those ventricles ensure my brain gets enough oxygen to function, which I then use to surmise that the evidence offered for the existence of gods is like the above; circular, self-serving and completely lacking in any substance.

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Sir, Dades, i also wanted evidence as you said but To see evidence you have to open eyes of your heart, You can't see the evidence with ordinary eyes..

There is no evidence, outside of these religious books, that there are non-ordinary eyes. This line of reasoning will inevitably end with a circular argument, I know this because the last time I conversed with a muslim on this subject, the exact same argument was put forward, the same problem arose and no solution could be found.

dead one wrote: »

Suppose religion says believe in one God and you say i want "evidence" where is that God. The evidence are God's words which speaks. You want to see God, As a researcher i believe word of Quran are not from human, Because i have studied many other books, like bible,talmud,vedas but the truth speaks itself in quran. I am neutral to all these books.

Where is the evidence that these words are gods words? That it means something to you is irrelevant, as that is subjective.

dead one wrote: »

You want evidence who is still holding the earth in this vast universe for what purpose and who helps people. Why earth don't leave its oribit, Why earth is still safe in the vast universe.

I'm pretty sure gravity answers those questions quite well. Even if we didn't know of gravity (and even if you try to follow up with "where does gravity come from?") your question is still flawed as it is based on ignorance. We dont know where "X" comes from, therefore its is god. Not so long ago, "X" was lightning and the god was Thor. But we learned and now we know better.

dead one wrote: »

Philosophers and scientists have many concepts of life and death. A vast amount of superstition as well as imaginative and psychological literature has grown about life and death. But the simplest and the truest religious concept are stated here in few words. And, there is only one fact about death that is stated in the Quran as follows:
Surah 67, Ayah 2 "He Who created death and life, that He may try which of you is best in deed"

Why does "he" need to use life and death as a test? Why is life and death so imbalanced , some are born rich, some poor, some live to very old and some die young, the test is not equal for everyone. Your answer from you book doesn't tell us anything.

dead one wrote: »

Sir dade no atheist will answer you what is soul, What is death, what is life, why we are here, only one true religion will tell.

Why assume there are answers to those questions? There may not be any answer to them beyond that that the natural conditions allow for them, so to give big philosophical answers would be misleading.

dead one wrote: »

So can you Answer my these question?

1. What is Soul?

Presupposes the existence of the soul. What most people mistake of as a soul is a mixture of an evolved conscience centric consciousness coupled with the fear of death.

dead one wrote: »

2. What is death?

My favourite explanation of death (which I think I heard here ages ago) was that death is the point at which your body enters chemical equilibrium with its surroundings.

dead one wrote: »

3. Who sent us on the world?

There is no evidence that anyone "sent us", the question just presupposes there is. All the best evidence points to natuiralistic evolution being teh source of humanity.

dead one wrote: »

4. Where are the souls of those people who lived once on earth etc.

Assumes the existence of the soul as an extant object, as opposed to a part of our natural, short lived bodies.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

So can you Answer my these question?

1. What is Soul?
2. What is death?
3. Who sent us on the world?
4. Where are the souls of those people who lived once on earth etc.

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?
I don't know so it must be god!



Maybe I should dig out my old sig again

gbee

This has been a hilariously funny thread, I wish to ... there was an atheist forum.

Turtwig

dead one wrote: »

1. What is Soul?
2. What is death?
3. Who sent us on the world?
4. Where are the souls of those people who lived once on earth etc.

1) The soul is the perceived essence that many people associated with residing within a living being. In actuality, though it most likely due to a misfiring of our brains tendency to associate "human like" agents and essences to just about everything. For the same reason most humans will be reluctant to put on a jacket worn by serial killer or be in the presence of a medieval weapon that was used as a tool torture or kill many people. We tend to give human like characteristics to things to just about everything. We associate the jacket with having the same characteristics as the person who wore it when he carried out the murders. In actuality though the jacket is just a jacket nothing more it has no personality, essence or spirit within it. Our bodies are just like the jacket.

2). When all the vital signs of life of an organism are absent.

3) Probably nothing. If it was an entity then I'd prefer we discovered that in due in course rather than assuming it to be there. Or at the very least waited until we had an actually way of unanimously testing that claim together.

4) As the soul most probably doesn't exists, I'd say nowhere.

krudler

Sir dade no atheist will answer you what is soul, What is death, what is life, why we are here, only one true religion will tell.

The latter day movement of reformed Presbo-Lutheran order of newfound Christo-Juadism Mormons?

dead one

Sir Dades wrote: »

My heart doesn't have eyes, it has ventricles.

Those ventricles ensure my brain gets enough oxygen to function, which I then use to surmise that the evidence offered for the existence of gods is like the above; circular, self-serving and completely lacking in any substance.

Sir, who gives senses to your ventricles that they are ensuring the amount of oxygen to function and sir, the oxygen which your brain is using what if it turns into the carbon. Will you stop it?. Who give your brain to brain that the evidence offered for the existence of gods is like the above; circular, self-serving and completely lacking in any substance. I can clearly see the existence of God in your words which you wrote against non existence of God. Very well sir,

Mark wrote: »

There is no evidence, outside of these religious books, that there are non-ordinary eyes. This line of reasoning will inevitably end with a circular argument, I know this because the last time I conversed with a muslim on this subject, the exact same argument was put forward, the same problem arose and no solution could be found.

There is "no evidence" means an evidence if you are sincere to search evidence. I agree majority of religious books are corrupted but one is true in all of them. "Open eyes of heart" means to ponder on your creation, do you think that such complex machine i.e "human" is created by chance or purposeless even everything in this mortal world has some purpose.

Mark wrote: »

Where is the evidence that these words are gods words? That it means something to you is irrelevant, as that is subjective.

Once like you, i always asked evidence about the word of God from people. But people can't provide you the evidence, unless you find the evidence by urself. You are the evidence. Human can't create a master piece like Quran. And that's pretty much what the Quran says as well. Read the Quran, ponder on it, and decide for yourself what to make of it. If it is from Allah, you should find no incongruity. It should all be good, true, beautiful, perfect.

Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity. 4:82

“What, do they not ponder the Qur'an? Or is it that there are locks upon their hearts?” (47:24)

The Qur'an also says in one of its verses:

“(This is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good, that they may ponder upon the verses”.

That is, We have not sent the Qur'an to be kissed, embraced and put on the niche to gather dust, but for men to read and to contemplate about its contents:

That those endowed with understanding may ponder its signs and so remember. (38:29)

Mark wrote: »

I'm pretty sure gravity answers those questions quite well. Even if we didn't know of gravity (and even if you try to follow up with "where does gravity come from?") your question is still flawed as it is based on ignorance. We dont know where "X" comes from, therefore its is god. Not so long ago, "X" was lightning and the god was Thor. But we learned and now we know better.

Sir still you are sure why u don't show full confidence. There is simple rule a perfect system of universe can't be created by chance or accident. Why you don't take example yourself, Where you were 1850?. The evidence to this answer is
Do you think We created you for nothing, and that you will not be returned to Us? (Quran, 23:115)
So sir mark why you still believe, you are for nothing.

Sir Mark wrote: »

Why does "he" need to use life and death as a test? Why is life and death so imbalanced , some are born rich, some poor, some live to very old and some die young, the test is not equal for everyone. Your answer from you book doesn't tell us anything.

Allah created us and decreed that those of us who choose the actions of
the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and those who choose the
actions of the people of the Fire will enter the Fire. Because Allah is
completely unlike everything else that exists, it does not make sense to
ask why He did this. Rather, this is just how things are, and it is up
to us to choose where we want to go. and in regards Allaah discriminating between his creatures, then this is evident; however, Allaah does this out of knowledge and wisdom and not out of ignorance and injustice. There is absolutely perfect wisdom in Him doing so; Allaah Says (what means): {Look how We have favored [in provision] some of them over others. But the Hereafter is greater in degrees [of difference] and greater in distinction.} [Quran 17:21] Allaah also Says (what means): {…and have raised some of them above others in degrees [of rank] that they may make use of one another for service. But the mercy of your Lord is better than whatever they accumulate.} [Quran 43:32]

In fact, poverty may be for some people better than richness, and richness is better for some others, in the same way health is more beneficial for some, and it is reported in a Hadeeth Qudusi [even if there is a controversy about its authenticity] that “Among My Slaves there are those for whom nothing is better than richness, and if I were to impoverish them, they would be corrupted, and among My Slaves there are those for whom nothing is better than poverty, and if I were to make them rich, they would be corrupted. I manage (the affairs of) My Slaves, I am indeed the All-Aware of their circumstances.”

You should know that real happiness is not for a man to obtain some money and other temporary worldly pleasures. Rather, the real happiness is in faith and acts of good deeds; Allaah Says (what means): {Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer— We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.}[Quran 16:97]

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Sir, who gives senses to your ventricles that they are ensuring the amount of oxygen to function and sir, the oxygen which your brain is using what if it turns into the carbon. Will you stop it?. Who give your brain to brain that the evidence offered for the existence of gods is like the above; circular, self-serving and completely lacking in any substance. I can clearly see the existence of God in your words which you wrote against non existence of God. Very well sir,

Evolution. Given enough time, the right physical constants and the right chemical environments and you end up with hearts. This is what the evidence points to.

dead one wrote: »

There is "no evidence" means an evidence if you are sincere to search evidence. I agree majority of religious books are corrupted but one is true in all of them. "Open eyes of heart" means to ponder on your creation, do you think that such complex machine i.e "human" is created by chance or purposeless even everything in this mortal world has some purpose.

Who says we haven't pondered on our creation?
Who says everything has a purpose? To assume a purpose presupposes that some intelligence has intended a purpose. To then use this idea of there being a purpose to infer the existence of said intelligence is a circular argument, like I predicted. There is no purpose, there is simply action and reaction, under physical constant, over a very long time.

dead one wrote: »

Once like you, i always asked evidence about the word of God from people. But people can't provide you the evidence, unless you find the evidence by urself. You are the evidence. Human can't create a master piece like Quran. And that's pretty much what the Quran says as well. Read the Quran, ponder on it, and decide for yourself what to make of it. If it is from Allah, you should find no incongruity. It should all be good, true, beautiful, perfect.

Perfection is subjective and I find the quran far from perfect. For a book supposedly from god to give every human the necessary rules for attaining heaven, its incredibly limited, being so restricted to one language and its writing style is not beneficial to its supposed purpose (its unclarity causes conflict, hence different branches of islam). Its of no surprise that the main source of the claim that humans could not have come up with the quran is the quran itself, I wonder if you can see the circular argument?

dead one wrote: »

The Qur'an also says in one of its verses:

“(This is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good, that they may ponder upon the verses”.

That is, We have not sent the Qur'an to be kissed, embraced and put on the niche to gather dust, but for men to read and to contemplate about its contents

then why is it in an obscure language, and written in such a way that it is in danger of loosing its meaning if translated? For a perfect book, its incredibly flawed.

dead one wrote: »

Sir still you are sure why u don't show full confidence. There is simple rule a perfect system of universe can't be created by chance or accident. Why you don't take example yourself, Where you were 1850?. The evidence to this answer is
Do you think We created you for nothing, and that you will not be returned to Us? (Quran, 23:115)
So sir mark why you still believe, you are for nothing.

What rule states that a perfect system of universe cant be formed from chance or accident? In what way is our universe a perfect system? Entropy is running down isn't it, the universe wont always exist, doesn't seem like perfect to me?

dead one wrote: »

Allah created us and decreed that those of us who choose the actions of
the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and those who choose the
actions of the people of the Fire will enter the Fire. Because Allah is
completely unlike everything else that exists, it does not make sense to
ask why He did this.

It is because allah is so different that we must ask. Allah is so different and alien to us, that surely we must question everything we attribute to him, for fear of attributing the mundane of false to his will? Without questioning why he does something, what is to stop someone attributing just anything to his will?
Even if at the end of the day/universe, we are accurate in what we attribute to allah, what difference does questioning him truly make? Allah is god, what does he have to fear from questioning?

dead one wrote: »

Rather, this is just how things are, and it is up
to us to choose where we want to go. and in regards Allaah discriminating between his creatures, then this is evident; however, Allaah does this out of knowledge and wisdom and not out of ignorance and injustice. There is absolutely perfect wisdom in Him doing so;

If his wisdom is perfect, why does he need the test, why doesn't he just know?

dead one wrote: »

Allaah Says (what means): {Look how We have favored [in provision] some of them over others. But the Hereafter is greater in degrees [of difference] and greater in distinction.} [Quran 17:21] Allaah also Says (what means): {…and have raised some of them above others in degrees [of rank] that they may make use of one another for service. But the mercy of your Lord is better than whatever they accumulate.} [Quran 43:32]

Indistinguishable from a rich man telling a poor man to stop complaining about his station, in order for the poor man to stay a bad situation to the rich man's advantage, as in heaven everything will be equal. If things end up equal, why dont they start equal?

dead one wrote: »

In fact, poverty may be for some people better than richness, and richness is better for some others, in the same way health is more beneficial for some, and it is reported in a Hadeeth Qudusi [even if there is a controversy about its authenticity] that “Among My Slaves there are those for whom nothing is better than richness, and if I were to impoverish them, they would be corrupted, and among My Slaves there are those for whom nothing is better than poverty, and if I were to make them rich, they would be corrupted. I manage (the affairs of) My Slaves, I am indeed the All-Aware of their circumstances.”

If allah knows this, what is better fro some than others, then what need is there for any test, as he already knows?

dead one wrote: »

You should know that real happiness is not for a man to obtain some money and other temporary worldly pleasures. Rather, the real happiness is in faith and acts of good deeds; Allaah Says (what means): {Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer— We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.}[Quran 16:97]

Again, indistinguishable from a rich man telling a poor man to stop complaining about his station. If allah is god, why does he need the test? Why doesn't he just know?

robindch

dead one wrote: »

Human can't create a master piece like Quran. And that's pretty much what the Quran says as well.

Allow me to update a forum favourite:

dead one wrote: »

no atheist will answer you what is soul, What is death, what is life, why we are here, only one true religion will tell.

And no jew, islamist or christian will tell me how I can protect my infinite spoffle from the dangers of greep, because each one denies the klirpness of Muppel who is the only protection. And if I fall into a state of greep, all my spoffle and each wakkaplong will depiffelate in boiling lead for all eternity.

No more needs to be said.

CerebralCortex

robindch wrote: »

Allow me to update a forum favourite:



And no jew, islamist or christian will tell me how I can protect my infinite spoffle from the dangers of greep, because each one denies the klirpness of Muppel who is the only protection. And if I fall into a state of greep, all my spoffle and each wakkaplong will depiffelate in boiling lead for all eternity.

No more needs to be said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9sJVJMiYM

Pushtrak

dead one wrote: »

Sir, Dades, i also wanted evidence as you said but To see evidence you have to open eyes of your heart,

Now, I know an understanding of the sciences is often a hindrance to religion. I still gag every time I see such statements. They have nothing behind them. Empty throwaway lines. It's funny you mention in a previous post that people only go along with what other people of their viewpoint say. This is a clear case of just that.

Well, the opening your heart part. You've gone a bit original throwing some eyes into the mix.

You can't see the evidence with ordinary eyes..

For everything else, there's cardiovascular vision?

1. What is Soul?
2. What is death?
3. Who sent us on the world?
4. Where are the souls of those people who lived once on earth etc.

1. A concept to help in making the afterlife seem credible. Ones milage on that varies though.
2. The absence of life.
3. My parents. When they had sex, and I was born.
4. Their bodies are either rotting or dust.

dead one wrote: »

Human can't create a master piece like Quran. And that's pretty much what the Quran says as well.

Maybe I should become a writer. Start out: This book is the best book you'll read in your life. If a book says it, it must be true.

Sir still you are sure why u don't show full confidence. There is simple rule a perfect system of universe can't be created by chance or accident.

Not that I believe this to be the case, I actually don't think chance or accident to be the case, but what makes you so sure that it couldn't be? This system is hardly a perfect one, too, so, could an imperfect system be created by chance or accident? I'd say yes.

So sir mark why you still believe, you are for nothing.

Ahh nihilism. Not my cup of tea.

Oh, one last thing. I'm sure I'm not speaking for myself when I point out that holy scripture thrown out like that makes (at least) my eyes glaze over, and I just scroll down for the most part.

Edit:

CerebralCortex wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9sJVJMiYM

Gold. Linked that on facebook and a few groups. Brilliant vid.

philologos

dead one wrote: »

Suppose i am christian, I will not learn what actually musilms believe by reading their scripture, but what i will do, i follow other Christians who say, Muslims are stipud, Muhammad was false prophet etc. That's what majority of christian are doing and Same case is applied to Muslims. So majority of atheist are doing the same thing, they don't research but follow other people's writing, history So they can't unfold the truth. I was also once at this stage

Really?

1) I have sat down to read sections of the Qur'an before.
2) I don't say that Muslims are stupid.
3) I do believe what you've said about Muhammad, because Christians are given criterion on which to test subsequent belief systems. (1 John 4:1-4)

Also, welcome to boards its interesting to see a Muslim that's interested in a good debate.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Evolution. Given enough time, the right physical constants and the right chemical environments and you end up with hearts. This is what the evidence points to.

Sir evolution also stop at one point, please update it, Modern science demonstrates the invalidity of the materialist-evolutionist claim and confirms creation. Contrary to the theory of evolution, all the proofs of creation that
surround us show that chance had no role in the universe's coming into existence. Every detail that emerges as we observe the sky, Earth, and all living things is intended as evidence of God's great power and wisdom. The point is you think God is tired. He has created you from nothing than why don't you think you will rise again for what you have done in this world.
50.15. Were We then tired with the first creation? (No), they (nonbelievers) are in confusion about a new creation(resurrection).

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Who says we haven't pondered on our creation?
Who says everything has a purpose? To assume a purpose presupposes that some intelligence has intended a purpose. To then use this idea of there being a purpose to infer the existence of said intelligence is a circular argument, like I predicted. There is no purpose, there is simply action and reaction, under physical constant, over a very long time.

Sir, you haven't pondered quite well.

50.15. Were We then tired with the first creation? (No), they (nonbelievers) are in confusion about a new creation (resurrection).

This verse confirms the saying that there was a first creation, the creation of life, which then evolved according to a long process of learning how to adaptat to the environemnt. When a person lose the purpose than he will say as you said,

There is no purpose, there is simply action and reaction, under physical constant, over a very long time.

Isn't it you r trying to satisfy your heart with these words but infact your heart isn't in evolution of satisfaction. Why
you are living a purposeless life. Isn't it you don't believe in God.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Perfection is subjective and I find the quran far from perfect. For a book supposedly from god to give every human the necessary rules for attaining heaven, its incredibly limited, being so restricted to one language and its writing style is not beneficial to its supposed purpose (its unclarity causes conflict, hence different branches of islam). Its of no surprise that the main source of the claim that humans could not have come up with the quran is the quran itself, I wonder if you can see the circular argument?

Sir, two minds, One book, for me it is perfect, for you it isn't perfect. I am neutral and honest to quran, if i it isn't perfect than i will write here quran isn't perfect. I agree all other religious books on the face of earth are corrupted with human hands except one that is quran. That is the demands of honesty because i have searched it like other books Bible etc. I proudly wrote here Bible isn't from God because Bible isn't Perfect.
You wrote,

its incredibly limited, being so restricted to one language and its writing style is not beneficial to its supposed purpose (its unclarity causes conflict, hence different branches of islam).

Quran had already answer you claim 1400 year ago. Because God knows it creation

"If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it
come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic,
say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for
those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if
they are being addressed from faraway."

Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe. Quran, like the Torah and the Gospel, is a book with a great message, "WORSHIP GOD ALONE". Thousands of years ago God gave the Jews the Torah in their own language. The Jews then considered the Hebrew/ Aramaic as the special (Holy) language of God. Some of their Rabbis even taught the Jews that praying in any language other than Hebrew is unacceptable to God and that the angels of God do not understand the prayers if not read in Hebrew.
Then God gave the followers of Jesus, the Gospel in their own language and they felt the same way that their language, mainly Aramaic is the very special language of God. Then God gave the world the Quran in the Arabic language. And again history repeats itself and the Arabs thought that Arabic is the language of God. They never appreciated that God gave His previous scriptures in other languages, namely Hebrew and Aramaic. They never appreciated the fact that in all the languages that the scriptures came down with, the most important single fact is that the message has been always the same. "WORSHIP GOD ALONE." They never appreciated the fact that to God belongs all the languages of the world, He created them, just like He created us, Those who can read Arabic can appreciate the excellence of the literature structure of the Quran. Those who do not, can
appreciate the excellence of the message by reading the Quran in any language.God, the Almighty, the Knower, the Cognizant knows that the majority of the Muslims in the world will not be reading ,
speaking or understanding Arabic. About 80% of the Muslims in this world cannot read, understand or speak Arabic

Mark Hamill wrote: »

then why is it in an obscure language, and written in such a way that it is in danger of loosing its meaning if translated? For a perfect book, its incredibly flawed.

The complex language of Arabic:

Arabic is a very complex, artistic and poetical language by nature! A single word can mean a host of meanings. The art and beauty of Arabic comes in how a person constructs and puts together words to form a sentence or paragraph. The art and creativity in the style and poetry are what determine the strength and beauty of the sentence or poem. That is why the Noble Quran is extremely difficult to understand sometimes, even by the fluent and professional Arabic speakers. That is why Muslims always say that the translations of the Noble Quran do it absolutely no justice, because the poetry and complexity of language-art are completely compromised in the translation. What the English reader, for instance, is left with when reading
the English Noble Quran, is the subject that the Noble Verses are talking about. But he/she doesn't see the beautiful and complex stylistic and linguistic Divine Miracle that the Arabic text carries in it.At any rate, Allah Almighty Chose for the Noble Quran to be Difficult to comprehend, and to be quite a challenge to interpret and translate, because:
1- He Chose to have the Miracle of the Noble Quran be an ever lasting one by living in the text of the Holy Book Itself.

2- To demonstrate Its Divinity to the Arabs back then, who were very experienced/mature, fluent and also addicted to poetry,

along with the Arabic-speaking people today, and to challenge them and to show them that certainly the Noble Quran is not just an average everyday book. It is indeed a Divine Miracle, proving that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is indeed a Truthful and real Prophet.

3- This is Allah Almighty's way to Lead to the Right Path whom He pleases and to Lead astray whom He pleases.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_round.htm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What rule states that a perfect system of universe cant be formed from chance or accident? In what way is our universe a perfect system? Entropy is running down isn't it, the universe wont always exist, doesn't seem like perfect to me?

Sir, everyday rule, everything which you use is created, A house is created. Just take example of Clock, Who created that watch, who assembles it parts so that it is giving you "the time", which you are wasting in state of denial. You want to say Clocks are created by chance, that is no third factor is involved in creation of clock. What an irony in your practical and in you thoughts.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It is because allah is so different that we must ask. Allah is so different and alien to us, that surely we must question everything we attribute to him, for fear of attributing the mundane of false to his will? Without questioning why he does something, what is to stop someone attributing just anything to his will?
Even if at the end of the day/universe, we are accurate in what we attribute to allah, what difference does questioning him truly make? Allah is god, what does he have to fear from questioning?

Why you think you will be perfect in the end of day. Do you really think a man who doesn't believe in Perfect GOd, he is perfect. To believe an unseen God, God gives us every power to search that God in this limited life. The limited time frame of 70 is 80 years is God's evidence, that he gives. So the day after you will not blame God.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If his wisdom is perfect, why does he need the test, why doesn't he just know?

Sir take simple example, Suppose you are standing before me and i ask you to lift your one leg and you do, than i ask you to lift your second leg. You won't why because the power of action which God gives you. Simply there are two road, one is safe and other isn't unsafe. If you choose the unsafe road will you blame God for that. Same theory implies on actions if you choose wrong action which is against the words of God than you will have to see the consequeses. Why don't you blame yourself. God gives you every wisdom, every right still you are not believing in God. It's shows you are free to do whatever you want.

This is the backdrop against which we understand statements that seem to imply that Allah did a certain act for some reason. For example, when the Qur'an tells us that He created us to worship Him, this does not mean that He needed to be worshipped and therefore created us to fulfill this need. Instead, what He is telling us is that he created us with the capability to worship Him by giving us the ability to choose our actions (Hashiyat al-Jamal `ala al-Jalalayn).
Similarly, when Allah tells us that He created us to test us, this does not mean that He needs to test us in order to find out whether we will do good or evil. He already knows what we will do. Rather, our playing out the actions of this life is merely a proof for or against us on the Day of Judgment.

Ultimately, life is a test, but when you ask allah, allah gives.
Quran translation

2:186): And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.

2:214): Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until [even their] messenger and those who believed with him said,"When is the help of Allah ?" Unquestionably, the help of Allah is near.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Indistinguishable from a rich man telling a poor man to stop complaining about his station, in order for the poor man to stay a bad situation to the rich man's advantage, as in heaven everything will be equal. If things end up equal, why dont they start equal?

If allah knows this, what is better fro some than others, then what need is there for any test, as he already knows?

Again, indistinguishable from a rich man telling a poor man to stop complaining about his station. If allah is god, why does he need the test? Why doesn't he just know?

Sir you are not understanding, SOme people are born in rich families and some are poor that's what i am trying to explain. Even you see most of Poor become in their life "rich". What i am telling is that. Those who are born in poor familes they shouldn't blame God but fear God and live their life in accordance to God's message. That's what God's demands from them, the only way to create peace on earth. If everyone truely believe what is real message of Allah "Worship him alone". Than there will be no rich and poor the in the world. Worship isn't mean that you bow on your ankle and say Ha Ho Ha Ho. It means completely submit your will before God. Suppose you have good chance to become rich by deceiving other. Than don't deceive others, That's the will of God you are worshiping God. I think it is very clear.

Sir good robindch wrote: »

And no jew, islamist or christian will tell me how I can protect my infinite spoffle from the dangers of greep, because each one denies the klirpness of Muppel who is the only protection. And if I fall into a state of greep, all my spoffle and each wakkaplong will depiffelate in boiling lead for all eternity.

Sir let me first clear, I don't believe in Jews and christian who are just following interpertation of men. The major reason why people become atheist is christianity or judasim i agree. Christianity lead people to atheism or agnostism because corruption of bible or church. The made Jesus as God. Church and this corruption seems to be necessary for the existance of
church. All the prophets like MOSES, JESUS and MUHAMMAD preached the same message in different times. That is Worship and believe in One God. But it's people who changed their teaching and misinterpret to mislead million of men. For example let me give you example Jesus told his people about arrival of Muhammad and see how how people changed it Please see Jesus predicting Muhammad. So please first search Islam and than place islam with other religion. Don't believe in me just do it withyour self you will find the truth. Islam will provide you the protection against the injustice of christianity and Judiasm. Why don't search it, open the quran and read it. Now see what Jesus is saying.

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

(HOLY BIBLE) John 16:7

Allah said;

[وَإِذْ قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ يبَنِى إِسْرَءِيلَ إِنِّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَيْكُم مُّصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَىَّ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَمُبَشِّراً بِرَسُولٍ يَأْتِى مِن بَعْدِى اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ]
(And when `Isa, son of Maryam, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah unto you, confirming the Tawrah before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad`Isa said, "The Tawrah conveyed the glad tidings of my coming, and my coming confirms the truth of the Tawrah. I convey the glad tidings of the Prophet who will come after me. He is the unlettered, Makkan, Arab Prophet and Messenger, Ahmad.'' `Isa, peace be upon him, is the last and final Messenger from among the Children of Israel. He remained among the Children of Israel for a while, conveying the good news of the coming of Muhammad, whose name is also Ahmad, the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger. After Muhammad, there will be no prophethood or Messengers. How admirable the Hadith is that Al-Bukhari collected in his Sahih from Jubayr bin Mut`im, who said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah say,

In the Holy Qur’ân God Almighty puts the name “Ahmed” which is another name for Muhummed (pbuh) in the mouth of Jesus (pbuh).
The Christian controversialist, Bible-thumper, Hot-Gospeller flippantly scoffs at the suggestion. The Christian missionary does not deny that Jesus (pbuh) did make a prophecy about someone coming after him. But “Ahmed” to him seems too far-fetched.The most commonly accepted name by Christendom is “Comforter” It does not really matter Comforter or any other equivalent
term will do. We will settle for Comforter as used in the most popular Bible Translation the “King James Version.”Ask your adversary, your disputant whether Jesus (pbuh) spoke the English language? “Most definitely not!” any Christian will say. The Christians are rightfully boasting that they now have translated the complete Bible into hundreds of different languages, and the New Testament (in which this prophecy abounds) into more than two thousand different languages and dialects. So the Christian genius has invented more than 2000 different names in 2000 different languages for this one candidate — Comforter!

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Sir evolution also stop at one point, please update it, Modern science demonstrates the invalidity of the materialist-evolutionist claim and confirms creation.

No it doesnt

Contrary to the theory of evolution, all the proofs of creation that
surround us show that chance had no role in the universe's coming into existence.

...No they don't

Every detail that emerges as we observe the sky, Earth, and all living things is intended as evidence of God's great power and wisdom.

"Isnt this flower pretty?
Therefore god exists" - no!

mikhail

dead one wrote: »

Every detail that emerges as we observe the sky, Earth, and all living things is intended as evidence of God's great power and wisdom.

I have one word for you: Onchocerciasis.

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

No it doesnt

...No they don't

"Isnt this flower pretty?
Therefore god exists" - no!

Sir Blue wolf have you ever tried to study the life of wolves. Even wolves also believe in God. See and open eyes of your heart oh sorry i am ventricles of your heart and ponder how the mother wolf feed its cubs. How she saves it from danger. Even she can attack on Lion in saving her cubs. Are you kidding can you compare lion with wolf in reality no wolf will stand against lion why she stands against lion because of the love which is in its heart for cubs. No don't tell me that love is by chance i.e evolution of love. From where they get this evolution of this love, They are animal they can't think for themselves but who give them senses or sorry i mean ventricle to think for their cub.

Many people don't believe in Judgment of God and pose question

17.49 . And they say : When we are bones and dust, are we going to be resurrected as a new creation?

here is answer

17.50. Say: (Yes, you will be resurrected even if) you are stones or iron.

17.51. Or a created matter, which is greater (or stronger than iron) in your minds.

God has said, "Yes." You will be resurrected even if you become stone, iron (Verse 17.50), or stronger than that (Verse 17.51)

What's relevant in this verse is the fact that humans can become fossils in rocks. Some bodies can be fossilized in clay layers which are rich in iron, thus becoming iron fossils.

Humans never knew that they can be fossilized in rocks before the 19th century. However, this information was revealed in the Holy Qur'an 1429 years ago, as evidence that its author is the Creator of life, the All Knowledgeable, who knows all things, including fossilization.

robindch

dead one wrote: »

Sir Blue wolf [...]

dead one -- we're atheists and agnostics, so we tend to be egalitarian and avoid titles except for irony.

Also, bluewolf is a sirette, not a sir.

dead one

robindch wrote: »

dead one -- we're atheists and agnostics, so we tend to be egalitarian and avoid titles except for irony.

Also, bluewolf is a sirette, not a sir.

Thanks for information, and i also thanks all of you for the freedom you provide.
I really appreciate it with the depth of my hearts, i won't use it again.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Sir Blue wolf have you ever tried to study the life of wolves. Even wolves also believe in God. See and open eyes of your heart oh sorry i am ventricles of your heart and ponder how the mother wolf feed its cubs. How she saves it from danger. Even she can attack on Lion in saving her cubs. Are you kidding can you compare lion with wolf in reality no wolf will stand against lion why she stands against lion because of the love which is in its heart for cubs. No don't tell me that love is by chance i.e evolution of love. From where they get this evolution of this love, .

Propagation of the species of course
Did you know it's not all rosy though? Perhaps we should take that as evidence of godly tyranny?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,912086,00.html


That's madam blue wolf thanks :cool:

CerebralCortex

bluewolf wrote: »

Propagation of the species of course
Did you know it's not all rosy though? Perhaps we should take that as evidence of godly tyranny?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,912086,00.html


That's madam blue wolf thanks :cool:

Oh you're a chick!?! Sweet!!

CerebralCortex

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Oh you're a chick!?! Sweet!!

No, it's blue wolf not blue chick!! :pac:

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

Propagation of the species of course
Did you know it's not all rosy though? Perhaps we should take that as evidence of godly tyranny?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,912086,00.html


That's madam blue wolf thanks :cool:

Oh my Dead God. please don't kill me i am already dead to die. consider me a madman.

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!"
As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I.

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Sir evolution also stop at one point, please update it,
..........
Were We then tired with the first creation? (No), they (nonbelievers) are in confusion about a new creation(resurrection).

All you have here is declarations, without evidence, which hold about as much weight as me declaring that i am god and I created everything but I cant explain it to you because you wouldn't be able to understand it. You talk about proofs, but offer none. What proof is there that the universe couldn't have arose from chance?

dead one wrote: »

Sir, you haven't pondered quite well.

50.15. Were We then tired with the first creation? (No), they (nonbelievers) are in confusion about a new creation (resurrection).

This verse confirms the saying that there was a first creation, the creation of life, which then evolved according to a long process of learning how to adaptat to the environemnt. When a person lose the purpose than he will say as you said,

Isn't it you r trying to satisfy your heart with these words but infact your heart isn't in evolution of satisfaction. Why
you are living a purposeless life. Isn't it you don't believe in God.

You cant use the quran (supposedly evidence for allah) as evidence for a purpose and then use that purpose as evidence for allah. You have a circular argument, so it is null and void.

dead one wrote: »

Sir, two minds, One book, for me it is perfect, for you it isn't perfect. I am neutral and honest to quran,

Are you saying I'm not? In its in my best interests to approach all religious texts honestly, because if one of them happens to be true, then I really need to start worshipping that god.

dead one wrote: »

Quran had already answer you claim 1400 year ago. Because God knows it creation

"If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it
come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic,
say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for
those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if
they are being addressed from faraway."

That doesn't actually answer my point at all. All it says is that people will question the chosen language no matter what, so why not arabic? Well why not have it in a magic language, that is automatically and easily translatable (with no loss of meaning) into any other? Why not have multiple prophets, each covering the major languages (or every language, its not like it would be any extra work for allah)? Why does there need to be a book at all? Why dont we aren't we just born knowing it, like instinct?

dead one wrote: »

Thousands of years ago God gave the Jews the Torah in their own language.
Then God gave the followers of Jesus, the Gospel in their own language
Then God gave the world the Quran in the Arabic language.
They never appreciated that God gave His previous scriptures in other languages, namely Hebrew and Aramaic.
They never appreciated the fact that in all the languages that the scriptures came down with, the most important single fact is that the message has been always the same. "WORSHIP GOD ALONE."
They never appreciated the fact that to God belongs all the languages of the world,

You dont seem to appreciate that your god has given three different, contradictory religious books, in three different times and three different languages and that each claim to be the infallible word of god and applicable to humanity for all time. They dont even cross translate properly (translate the original hebrew torah into aramaic or arabic and you dont end up with even the same rules as what's in the original aramaic bible or arabic quran)

dead one wrote: »

The complex language of Arabic:

I've heard this argument before, that the language of the quran is supposed to be complex and linguistic in nature. That of course, points to a writer who, if sincere in writing it, didn't understand the first thing about his audience - about how much variation there would be in the deciphering of the complex language and about how bad we are at reconciling two contradictory interpretations of the same passages (again, its why we end up with different branches of the same religions). Complexity, verbosity and poetical language is not just surplus to requirements, it works against the point of the book.

dead one wrote: »

Sir, everyday rule, everything which you use is created, A house is created. Just take example of Clock, Who created that watch, who assembles it parts so that it is giving you "the time", which you are wasting in state of denial. You want to say Clocks are created by chance, that is no third factor is involved in creation of clock. What an irony in your practical and in you thoughts.

Clockmakers make clocks, builders make houses. Electrical charges in clouds make lightning. Abiogenesis makes life. Evolution makes diversity. Its all natural.
Of course if you argue for allah as clockmaker, because of the complexity in the clock being too much for chance, then you must explain who made the most complex thing of all, god?

dead one wrote: »

Why you think you will be perfect in the end of day. Do you really think a man who doesn't believe in Perfect GOd, he is perfect. To believe an unseen God, God gives us every power to search that God in this limited life. The limited time frame of 70 is 80 years is God's evidence, that he gives. So the day after you will not blame God.

That doesn't answer my question. You said we shouldn't question god, I said we should because 1) we are presented with many different interpretations of god, so we need to question these in order to determine which is accurate and 2) questioning, even a real living god, offers no dangers or difficulty to him, so why shouldn't we?

dead one wrote: »

Similarly, when Allah tells us that He created us to test us, this does not mean that He needs to test us in order to find out whether we will do good or evil. He already knows what we will do. Rather, our playing out the actions of this life is merely a proof for or against us on the Day of Judgment.

Why would god need proof? God is the judge and seeing as he is infallible and already knows if we passed the test or not, then he doesn't need the test at all, he just knows.

dead one wrote: »

Sir you are not understanding, SOme people are born in rich families and some are poor that's what i am trying to explain. Even you see most of Poor become in their life "rich". What i am telling is that.

Pretty sure most who start off poor, stay that way. I'm thinking of the millions of starving poor in Africa and the slums in South America.

dead one wrote: »

Those who are born in poor familes they shouldn't blame God but fear God and live their life in accordance to God's message. That's what God's demands from them, the only way to create peace on earth.

You create other problems with this statement:
1)We have humans doing that, and we call them tyrants and dictators. Objective morality would therefore imply that god is a tyrant and dictator.
2) Why should we fear god? What purpose does fear serve for god that understanding wouldn't better achieve?
3)Why is that the only way to achieve peace on earth? This is a god we are talking about, I'm sure there are a great many things he could do to ensure peace on earth.

dead one wrote: »

If everyone truely believe what is real message of Allah "Worship him alone". Than there will be no rich and poor the in the world. Worship isn't mean that you bow on your ankle and say Ha Ho Ha Ho. It means completely submit your will before God. Suppose you have good chance to become rich by deceiving other. Than don't deceive others, That's the will of God you are worshiping God. I think it is very clear.

Kind of begs the question why there are still rich and poor people in islamic countries then, doesn't it?

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Oh my Dead God. please don't kill me i am already dead to die. consider me a madman.

What

ADGOBE

If God were anything physical it would also mean God would be vulnerable which is just not what God is. And if God gave some huge sign to everyone that there is a God there would be no point in religion because nobodies faith would be tested.

iBumblebeetuna

ADGOBE wrote: »

And if God gave some huge sign to everyone that there is a God there would be no point in religion because nobodies faith would be tested.

And what would be so wrong with that? Everyone would believe, worship and fear the god, which is apparantly what it wants... I'm not seeing a problem here. Does this god not want everyone to end up in heaven when they die?

MagicMarker

This thread is painful to read!

Mark Hamill

ADGOBE wrote: »

If God were anything physical it would also mean God would be vulnerable which is just not what God is. And if God gave some huge sign to everyone that there is a God there would be no point in religion because nobodies faith would be tested.

Why does god need to test our faith?

MagicMarker

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why does god need to test our faith?

To get to the other side...... ?

No, wait, wrong joke.

iBumblebeetuna

ADGOBE wrote: »

If God were anything physical it would also mean God would be vulnerable which is just not what God is.

WRONG! Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron

Mark Hamill

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why does god need to test our faith?

How else could an omnipotent deity get its kicks and its ego stroked

PDN

iBumblebeetuna wrote: »

WRONG! Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron

"PDN voted for Fergus O'Dowd; and he was elected as TD."

Does this mean that I was elected as a TD, or that Fergus O'Dowd was?

If you were really interested in what Judges 1:19 says (rather than cutting and pasting from a theologically illiterate atheist website) then you would have read this:

And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah. Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof. And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (Judges 1:17-19).

The natural sense of the meaning is that the 'he' in verse 19 is the 'him' in verse 17. So the Lord was with Judah and Judah drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley. That is reflected in modern translations.

I love the way some people will ignore 4 centuries years of scholarship by linguists and quote from a 400 year old archaic translation because it can be better twisted to their agenda.

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

"PDN voted for Fergus O'Dowd; and he was elected as TD."

Does this mean that I was elected as a TD, or that Fergus O'Dowd was?

If you were really interested in what Judges 1:19 says (rather than cutting and pasting from a theologically illiterate atheist website) then you would have read this:

And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah. Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof. And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (Judges 1:17-19).

The natural sense of the meaning is that the 'he' in verse 19 is the 'him' in verse 17. So the Lord was with Judah and Judah drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley. That is reflected in modern translations.

I love the way some people will ignore 4 centuries years of scholarship by linguists and quote from a 400 year old archaic translation because it can be better twisted to their agenda.

I think its funny the smugness you show when all you have pointed out is that the answer to fighting someone with god on their side is to have iron chariots.

iBumblebeetuna

PDN wrote: »

"PDN voted for Fergus O'Dowd; and he was elected as TD."

Does this mean that I was elected as a TD, or that Fergus O'Dowd was?

If you were really interested in what Judges 1:19 says (rather than cutting and pasting from a theologically illiterate atheist website) then you would have read this:

And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah. Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof. And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (Judges 1:17-19).

The natural sense of the meaning is that the 'he' in verse 19 is the 'him' in verse 17. So the Lord was with Judah and Judah drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley. That is reflected in modern translations.

I love the way some people will ignore 4 centuries years of scholarship by linguists and quote from a 400 year old archaic translation because it can be better twisted to their agenda.

I've learned something new today, many thanks PDN .

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I think its funny the smugness you show when all you have pointed out is that the answer to fighting someone with god on their side is to have iron chariots.

Sorry, the smugness in here is infectious at times. I will try harder to be self-loathing.

But I will remember that in atheist -speak "pointing out an error" = "smugness"

Dades

PDN wrote: »

I love the way some people will ignore 4 centuries years of scholarship by linguists and quote from a 400 year old archaic translation because it can be better twisted to their agenda.

I just ignore 4 centuries years of scholarship by linguists because no matter what way it's read it still comes across as a nonsense way to explain our existence.

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

Sorry, the smugness in here is infectious at times. I will try harder to be self-loathing.

But I will remember that in atheist -speak "pointing out an error" = "smugness"

None of this responds to my point. Your smugness seems to be all gone now that it seems your knee jerk defense of anything biblical from anything critical has come not just lacking, but actually reinforcing the original attack.

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

None of this responds to my point. Your smugness seems to be all gone now that it seems your knee jerk defense of anything biblical from anything critical has come not just lacking, but actually reinforcing the original attack.

No, I am quite happy for you guys to criticise the Bible all you like. Receiving confirmation from other group members is important for any small minority group.

I certainly don't think, that by pointing out an error, I reinforced any attack. But then again, I don't claim to understand how you view things through your own rather unique ideological prism.

You might find that I understand you better if you addressed actual issues than indulging in snide little personal comments about smugness. It's hard to break old habits, but I'm sure you can do it if you try.

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

No, I am quite happy for you guys to criticise the Bible all you like. Receiving confirmation from other group members is important for any small minority group.

I certainly don't think, that by pointing out an error, I reinforced any attack. But then again, I don't claim to understand how you view things through your own rather unique ideological prism.

You might find that I understand you better if you addressed actual issues than indulging in snide little personal comments about smugness. It's hard to break old habits, but I'm sure you can do it if you try.

Still not dealing with the point clearly raised in post 35, but then again I'm sure hiding insults in double talk makes you feel much better than accepting being wrong, so why should you care?

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Receiving confirmation from other group members is important for any small minority group.

Quote true. To wit:

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Still not dealing with the point clearly raised in post 35, but then again I'm sure hiding insults in double talk makes you feel much better than accepting being wrong, so why should you care?

Look, I pointed out an error. It's no big deal.

Even though I'm a Christian in the A&A forum that is still permissable. Learn to deal with it.

CerebralCortex

PDN wrote: »

Look, I pointed out an error. It's no big deal.

Post #35 dude.

PDN

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Post #35 dude.

Post 35 doesn't alter the error that I pointed out, dude. It refers to some argument that is nothing to do with me.

If you want to argue with some Muslim guy then that's nice for you, but I learned long ago that when two idiots are arguing then a wise man doesn't try to separate them. Therefore, while it is my Christian duty to point out lamentable errors people make about the Bible, I'll happily let a Muslim and an atheist continue unhindered while they point out the weaknesses in each of their positions.

stevoslice

PDN wrote: »

I learned long ago that when two idiots are arguing then a wise man doesn't try to separate them. Therefore, while it is my Christian duty to point out lamentable errors people make about the Bible, I'll happily let a Muslim and an atheist continue unhindered while they point out the weaknesses in each of their positions.

Your opinion towards 'atheists' and 'muslims' is a bit scary, you liken both to idiots and also have a few derisory quotes in your sig.

FYI there is no such thing as atheist speak. When it comes to religion, atheists can speak their feelings openly and do not have to find some mention of a similar situation in a dusty old 'mistranslated' book, if you can't accept that someone has a free mind, or won't on account of your religion then i fear you may have to widen your definition of the word idiot.

PDN

thebhoy wrote: »

Your opinion towards 'atheists' and 'muslims' is a bit scary, you liken both to idiots and also have a few derisory quotes in your sig.

Derisory quotes? I'm sorry you don't appreciate Voltaire and Thomas Paine.

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

Post 35 doesn't alter the error that I pointed out, dude. It refers to some argument that is nothing to do with me.

If you want to argue with some Muslim guy then that's nice for you, but I learned long ago that when two idiots are arguing then a wise man doesn't try to separate them. Therefore, while it is my Christian duty to point out lamentable errors people make about the Bible, I'll happily let a Muslim and an atheist continue unhindered while they point out the weaknesses in each of their positions.

Now ya see... heres the funny auld thing. I got banned from another area of 'Religion and spirituality' for simply pointing out a fact. I ignored the moderators instruction to stop as I considered the statement of fact to be perfectly within the charter. But in the usual spirit of "get away from our bubble with that pin" employed by certain Mods for I got banned.
Here perhaps i can state this fact without impunity.

You say that you are pointing out errors made by people about the bible.. yeah?
So your interpretation of the bible is the correct one.. yeah?
And heres what got me banned else where.... ready your self now....
THATS WHAT THEY ALL SAY.
Shocking isnt it?
Every single sub sect of Christianity interpret the Bible differently
Every different religion have their own holy books all off which are the one true book and the one true word of God..

So what give you the arrogance to call anybody who differs to you and idiot and appoint yourself as 'a wise man'?

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

Derisory quotes? I'm sorry you don't appreciate Voltaire and Thomas Paine.

EDIT:
Self moderation... Dont want to stoop to some peoples level

stevoslice

PDN wrote: »

Derisory quotes? I'm sorry you don't appreciate Voltaire and Thomas Paine.

Voltaire wrote:

"Prejudices are what fools use for reason"

“For seventeen hundred years the Christian sect has done nothing but harm”

"Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men"

“Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world”

“If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed”

Thomas_Paine wrote:

"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange believe that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies"

"The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice"

"..but the Bible is such a book of lies and contradictions there is no knowing which part to believe or whether any..."

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, t renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as ameans of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter."

Don't I now, or should I just take the above as metaphors.. or maybe I have taken these quotes out of context?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o

PDN

thebhoy wrote: »

Don't I now, or should I just take the above as metaphors.. or maybe I have taken these quotes out of context?

No, those quotes are perfectly proper.

Congratulations on your mastery of google!