Would you have voted for Sinn Fein if they had dropped Gerry and their IRA legacy?

The Brigadier

Just wondering about this. Most of the people who have a problem with Sinn Fein have it over Gerry Adams the parties remaining links with the IRA.

How many people would have had less of an issue with Sinn Fein if they dumped Gerry and renounced the IRA?

If they simply became a far left party would they secure a larger share of the vote? I know they would lose some of their 'hardcore' supporters but would they gain more in return?

A Dub in Glasgo

When you say links are you talking about IRA books, posters t-shirts as I assume you are aware that the (P)IRA has been disbanded?

Why would they renounce the (P)IRA?

The Brigadier

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

When you say links are you talking about IRA books, posters t-shirts as I assume you are aware that the (P)IRA has been disbanded?

Why would they renounce the (P)IRA?

Sorry, that is what I meant. I should have made it clearer. I don't want us to use this thread to go over the same old ground (there are plenty of other threads for that) but the provisional IRA is a BIG negative for a lot of Irish people.

problemchimp

The Brigadier wrote: »

Just wondering about this. Most of the people who have a problem with Sinn Fein have it over Gerry Adams the parties remaining links with the IRA.

How many people would have had less of an issue with Sinn Fein if they dumped Gerry and renounced the IRA?

If they simply became a far left party would they secure a larger share of the vote? I know they would lose some of their 'hardcore' supporters but would they gain more in return?

How do you drop a legacy, re-write history? Yes I would vote Sinn Fein again. My view on the national problems are not clouded by one personal issue. That sort of pettiness would stop me voting at all and the country is more important than that. Move on son, look forward!

A Dub in Glasgo

They can be a bit in your face and obviously the 10% who gave them a 1st preference have no great issue with it (assuming they are even aware). If they want to appeal to the masses, they will probably have to get rid of the likes of the t-shirts and posters but not the books as it is important that people have the opportunity of reading about our recent history. What they should not do is disown their own history to become more popular.

The Brigadier

problemchimp wrote: »

How do you drop a legacy, re-write history?

Continuing to sell IRA souvenirs on their website for many people does not show a willingness to move on.

problemchimp

The Brigadier wrote: »

Continuing to sell IRA souvenirs on their website for many people does not show a willingness to move on.

I think it was the guns that did the damage, not the t-shirts. Every bookshop in Ireland has history books about our dead heroes who killed, including Fine Gael and their Collins books etc....Stuff happened in our history, that cannot be changed. The important thing is, the guns are destroyed and the Provos have disbanded. Next!

The Brigadier

problemchimp wrote: »

I think it was the guns that did the damage, not the t-shirts. Every bookshop in Ireland has history books about our dead heroes who killed, including Fine Gael and their Collins books etc....Stuff happened in our history, that cannot be changed. The important thing is, the guns are destroyed and the Provos have disbanded. Next!

Many Irish people are ashamed of the actions of the Provisional IRA. They certainly don't view them as heroes. As I have said, this isn't a thread for the same old arguments in this regard.

I simply wanted to discuss whether Sinn Fein would have increased their share of the vote by dropping Gerry and disassociating themselves from their provo history.

meglome

Personally I don't really care about their past and locally I have given them votes. I'm really pee'd me off though about all the economic lies they told. They were telling their supporters we can get the rich and walk away from our debts. As I have pointed out on a number of occasions the rich are already paying most of our tax and the idea that we can just walk away from our debts then turn around the next day and borrow more money is utter rubbish.

To me SF are about half a step up from FF, they didn't wreck the country but are well capable of doing it given the chance. The last thing we need in this country is people who blindly follow a party rather than the policies of that party.

problemchimp

The Brigadier wrote: »

Many Irish people are ashamed of the actions of the Provisional IRA. They certainly don't view them as heroes. As I have said, this isn't a thread for the same old arguments in this regard.

I simply wanted to discuss whether Sinn Fein would have increased their share of the vote by dropping Gerry and disassociating themselves from their provo history.

Gerry got a massive vote so why would they drop him? How do you suggest they really disassociate themselves from where they came from? They are not a former Boyband who now want to be taken seriously because they "have their own ideas now". As I said you cannot re-write history just because people don't like it.

Scotty #

For me it's not just the bombs that it the problem. It's all the scandal and rumours. The total dishonesty.

The bank robbery...
The Colombia 'birdwathcers'...
The racketeering...
The drug dealing or rather control of...
The diesel...
The organised crime...

And before you start asking for proof, no, I don't have any but it's all been reported several times in the media. SF may not have an active roll in any of the above but they collude with those that do and I would say plenty of their funding comes from same.

There are some very good politicians in SF, no doubt. But some of them just have too much blood on their hands. Would I vote for them if Gerry went and they denounced the IRA? Unlikely.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

I would not have agreed with the IRA campaign.Most people wouldn't.
But lets get real here.
It happened.
It's a very important part of core SF Republican beliefs that regrettably it happened.
It's not a problem for me voting for them.
The problem for me would be,like it seems the majority of voters is they are too far left still.
In this election somebody steering their policy and campaign recognized that the strategy to follow was to stay left and avoid unnecessary questions of what to do next after rejecting the imf.
That was a good strategy.
I see it as a strategy,it could never have been implemented.
As a strategy it worked well.It captured the anger vote,especially the previous FF working class anger vote that when it was happy still eluded left wing parties for some reason.

Thats my take.
Heading forward,the challenge for SF is to hold onto that vote,I suspect they will.
However to branch out and grow,they'll have to move more centre left ala democratic lefts path.
That will happen or they will stagnate as the questions for 8 out of 10 voters will remain and that is how do you realistically fund the country.

I see them growing when they head slowly down that path and see them as a big threat to labour (especially as they look likely to be in government and hence subject to new public ire down the road).
FF are unlikely to regain their working class vote,they might get back some of their lost vote,centre voters which are not really in play for SF.

SF are showing them selves to be very vibrant attractive and young(for an old party).I like a lot of their new candidates.But they will need a lot more than that,policy wise to grow.
It will be denied but it's coming.
They need a little more

jmayo

The Brigadier wrote: »

Just wondering about this. Most of the people who have a problem with Sinn Fein have it over Gerry Adams the parties remaining links with the IRA.

How many people would have had less of an issue with Sinn Fein if they dumped Gerry and renounced the IRA?

If they simply became a far left party would they secure a larger share of the vote? I know they would lose some of their 'hardcore' supporters but would they gain more in return?

It is not just adams, we have a politcal dynasty, which SF normally frown upon when it is other parties, sitting in Kerry that has no problems with the murder of members of our police force.

Even if these people were gone off the scene and the party were as pure as the driven snow, their economic policies are for the birds.

They can afford to peddal pure infantile cr** becuase they will never be in a position of power to be totally found out.
They are appealing to their core consitituency who beleive that unemployed and lower salaried working class are downtrodden by those who make more money than them and that they have a God given right to share in others hard earned money.
Someone should tell them that communism/marxism failed miserably.
Even communist China is no longer communist.

Even if I and some economists agree that we do need to force bondholders to take a major hit for the banks debts, how can anyone seriously believe that we can continue to spend as is with a current budget deficit of circa 20 billion (they plan to reverse cuts) ?

takun

The Brigadier wrote: »

I simply wanted to discuss whether Sinn Fein would have increased their share of the vote by dropping Gerry and disassociating themselves from their provo history.

I would say yes. It's not just the history that's a problem for mainstream voters, it's the way they assume some sort of superior 'Irishness'.

They benefited this time out in from a general protest vote as well as their core vote, and from far better vote management and an increase in lower preferences which came along with the huge number of independents (which was again mostly the protest vote). But while they are still associated with terrorism in people's minds, carry on hijacking the Irish flag as their emblem and persist in calling Ireland 'the 26 counties' or 'this part of the island', and talking about 'the war', they are not going to go mainstream.

They have a very large natural constituency if they can do that, and it's one that for some reason always belonged to FF. I could never fathom how FF got away for so long with selling themselves as a champion of the ordinary working person (or nor working as the case may be) while simultaneously pursuing policies that really only benefited the well off.

problemchimp

Deleted User wrote: »

I would not have agreed with the IRA campaign.Most people wouldn't.
But lets get real here.
It happened.
It's a very important part of core SF Republican beliefs that regrettably it happened.
It's not a problem for me voting for them.
The problem for me would be,like it seems the majority of voters is they are too far left still.
In this election somebody steering their policy and campaign recognized that the strategy to follow was to stay left and avoid unnecessary questions of what to do next after rejecting the imf.
That was a good strategy.
I see it as a strategy,it could never have been implemented.
As a strategy it worked well.It captured the anger vote,especially the previous FF working class anger vote that when it was happy still eluded left wing parties for some reason.

Thats my take.
Heading forward,the challenge for SF is to hold onto that vote,I suspect they will.
However to branch out and grow,they'll have to move more centre left ala democratic lefts path.
That will happen or they will stagnate as the questions for 8 out of 10 voters will remain and that is how do you realistically fund the country.

I see them growing when they head slowly down that path and see them as a big threat to labour (especially as they look likely to be in government and hence subject to new public ire down the road).
FF are unlikely to regain their working class vote,they might get back some of their lost vote,centre voters which are not really in play for SF.

SF are showing them selves to be very vibrant attractive and young(for an old party).I like a lot of their new candidates.But they will need a lot more than that,policy wise to grow.
It will be denied but it's coming.
They need a little more

I agree with you there. They knew deep down that their economic policies would never be implemented so getting a good return for their campaign was the objective. It worked for them and give it about 2/3 years P.Doherty will take over as party leader and move to the next level. As regards FF losing the working class vote, I would disagree with you there. As soon as F.G. make mistakes, as I'm sure they will, F.F. will be ready to pounce. Come the next election the fickle voters will bring them back in from the cold.Nobody thought F.G. could come back from their implosion before Enda took over. As regards re-writing S.F history and them selling T-shirts , that's just a sideshow for people who cannot see forward.

The Brigadier

takun wrote: »

I would say yes. It's not just the history that's a problem for mainstream voters, it's the way they assume some sort of superior 'Irishness'.

I have been on the receiving end of that on here over the last few days.

problemchimp

The Brigadier wrote: »

I have been on the receiving end of that on here over the last few days.

How so?

The Brigadier

problemchimp wrote: »

How so?

Several Sinn Fein supporters made a great point of calling me British because I disagreed with their views.

problemchimp

The Brigadier wrote: »

Several Sinn Fein supporters made a great point of calling me British because I disagreed with their views.

Don't base your judgement on the views of a few knob heads.

CokaColumbo

Sinn Fein's links with the Provisional IRA is not something which would stop me from supporting them. I for one sympathise with the pro-GFA republican establishment in the North. If they had an economic policy which reflects my own personal outlook, I would have considered voting them. But they don't, so I didn't.

Einhard

It would have made me somewhat more likely to vote for them, but I'm a policies person at heart, and I think SF's economic and fiscal policies are daft. So no.

gcgirl

Dp

gcgirl

When you get 2 30 something year olds one north of the border one south of the border the difference of opinion is Huge, personally I thought the IRA back in the 80's/90's were nothing but murderers and I totally disagree with any of their English campaign but now with what I have learnt if you marginlize people they will strike out, how the Catholics were treated up north in the 60s,70s,80s and the 90's was awful same is said to what the Jews have been doing to the Arabs in Palinstine since 1947 and to be honest if we did not have religion we would not have this conflict that's the sad fact, SF have came a long way in 17 yrs and on social policy alone I'd favour them over FG but Gerry needs to step aside for one of the southern guys to take over and I think they can progress

The Brigadier

gcgirl wrote: »

When you get 2 30 something year olds one north of the border one south of the border the difference of opinion is Huge, personally I thought the IRA back in the 80's/90's were nothing but murderers and I totally disagree with any of their English campaign but now with what I have learnt if you marginlize people they will strike out, how the Catholics were treated up north in the 60s,70s,80s and the 90's was awful same is said to what the Jews have been doing to the Arabs in palinstine

The situation in Palestine is very similar to that in Northern Ireland. And like the situation in Northern Ireland both sides have blood on their hands. The amount of times I have seen my sympathy for the arabs diluted by their attacks on the jews is high.

Dubol

The Brigadier wrote: »

Sorry, that is what I meant. I should have made it clearer. I don't want us to use this thread to go over the same old ground (there are plenty of other threads for that) but the provisional IRA is a BIG negative for a lot of Irish people.

So are the Unionists, UDA, Orange Order and their marches a BIG negative for a lot af the IRISH people

takun

Dubol wrote: »

So are the Unionists, UDA, Orange Order and their marches a BIG negative for a lot af the IRISH people

But we are not being asked to vote for them.

The Brigadier

Dubol wrote: »

So are the Unionists, UDA, Orange Order and their marches a BIG negative for a lot af the IRISH people

But how many of them stood in the General Election?

gcgirl

The way I look at it if we did not have religion we would not be destroying one another

The Brigadier

gcgirl wrote: »

The way I look at it if we did not have religion we would not be destroying one another

I think the problems in Northern Ireland were little to do with Religion. They were tribal.

If the Catholics were as Catholic as they should have been and the Protestants as Protestant as they should have been they wouldn't have been killing each other.

gcgirl

The Brigadier wrote: »

But how many of them stood in the General Election?

That's because they don't believe in the republic and union with GB is far more important to them also if you look at the average 30 something Londoner they will have a difference of opinion with a unionist up north!

d'Oracle

I hear you dislike cats.

Would you like cats if they were not actually cats but really parrots?

Sinn Fein are inextricably linked with both Gerry Adams and their past.
The question is nonsense.

gcgirl

If you throw someone off their land/ house and start treating them like animals be it Arab/ catholic it will cause heartache in the long run

danger man

bullsh1t thread, we would not be were we are today in the north without the IRA .the brits gone.sinn fein and dup geting more and more powers.keep her lite boys great work done both sides. only fools plastic paddys and westbrits would say otherwise. the war is over a long time but when come on here you would think it was still on.what a sad bunch....whats this boards.ie or bash.ie

Dubol

gcgirl wrote: »

The way I look at it if we did not have religion we would not be destroying one another

People are hiding behind religion and not just in Ireland. You dont hear Americans, Aussies, Germans Etc. fighting over religion. The problem is some Irish people want to be British and that is on both sides of the border. It has nothing to do with religion. When Britain invaded Ireland it was not a religious war. It was to extend their Empire. All we hear about is what the IRA did. The British in Ireland have also done some bad things but they think they are without blame.
Lets have a referendum and find out. The English people want a united Ireland. Various newspapers have reported this over the years so why not give it a try and maybe we can become like South Africa, Germany, Vietnam and live in peace

prettygurrly

nope..as a previous person said, they are inextricably linked. you can only vote for SF if it doesn't bother you what they did in the past. At least some of the SF have admitted to what they've done. Adams, as usual, stayed quiet. I find him very hypocritical and was very sad to see him stand in Louth. And now he's elected and we'll never be rid of him. His shop is literally 10 doors down from me.

Unfortunately I would be at odds with most young people in Louth. He got a lot of 1st pref votes. From the look of it he didn't get any 2nds or 3rds which indicated either you love him or hate him.

danger man

prettygurrly wrote: »

nope..as a previous person said, they are inextricably linked. you can only vote for SF if it doesn't bother you what they did in the past. At least some of the SF have admitted to what they've done. Adams, as usual, stayed quiet. I find him very hypocritical and was very sad to see him stand in Louth. And now he's elected and we'll never be rid of him. His shop is literally 10 doors down from me.

Unfortunately I would be at odds with most young people in Louth. He got a lot of 1st pref votes. From the look of it he didn't get any 2nds or 3rds which indicated either you love him or hate him.

admitted to what they've done? and whats that?were is your proof? time to put up or shut up.since hes 10 doors down go and talk to them see whats there story is,,

gerry and martin fighting talk shut up bullsh1t news papers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mcEOnnI2Wo

The Brigadier

Dubol wrote: »

Lets have a referendum and find out. The English people want a united Ireland. Various newspapers have reported this over the years so why not give it a try and maybe we can become like South Africa, Germany, Vietnam and live in peace

Not just the English people but the majority of British people.

The majority of British people I know over here just think of Ireland. They don't really see any difference between north and south. There certainly isn't any love for Ian Paisley. In fact I believe most people in Britain would actively support the unification of Ireland.

The Brigadier

I think this thread is going off course. Can we try and get back to the original question.

gcgirl

I was supprised to learn the Irish actually tried to invade wales far before any one invaded Ireland, tbh its 2011 I consider myself more European, last night seeing the Healy Rea's on tv made me ashamed to be Irish,if we thought more European like we would be a better country we tend to think about the past and dwell on it I still have my belief religion has caused an awful lot of shyt and is a elephant in the room ESP us Irish

The Brigadier

gcgirl wrote: »

I still have my belief religion has caused an awful lot of shyt and is a elephant in the room ESP us Irish

Funnily enough when I lived in Ireland I considered myself an Atheist and was staunchly opposed to the Catholic Church.

Since leaving Ireland to work in England I have found myself drawn back to the Church and found my faith. For someone who was as much of a Dawkin's acolyte as one can be that was a significant switch.

The Catholic Church is a fundamentally good organisation and the problems in Ireland stem not from the Church but the abuse of power by a privileged elite. Certainly in my opinion the problems in Ireland relating to the church are not about religion but the same sort of corruption which has been seen in politics.

prettygurrly

danger man wrote: »

admitted to what they've done? and whats that?were is your proof? time to put up or shut up.since hes 10 doors down go and talk to them see whats there story is,,

gerry and martin fighting talk shut up bullsh1t news papers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mcEOnnI2Wo

so why did Martin admit to stuff? Adams wont even admit that he was a member of the PIRA.

anyway, i answered the question. No I wouldn't have voted for SF. I gave them a go at college. My ex is a big sinn feiner, I'm a big believer in giving people a chance. I did. Not for me.

and where would I get proof? I think the point of the question is whether their awful rep, if they somehow faced up to it, would it gain voters or what? so dangerman...i can't remember if you answered the question, but if you haven't, please do.

Warper

Our freedom-fighters of 1916 were deemed heroes yet out freedom-fighters in the North are deemed terrorists :rolleyes:

The Brigadier

Warper wrote: »

Our freedom-fighters of 1916 were deemed heroes yet out freedom-fighters in the North are deemed terrorists :rolleyes:

Going over the same stuff again. Plenty of threads for that.

prettygurrly

in fact it's the opposite. the "freedom fighers" back in 1916 weren't exactly supported by joe bloggs on the street. the country was stable, people were making money and a better life for themselves and then the fighting started again. they're only deemed heroes now cos we have rose coloured glasses.

but to be honest....bombing a street in omagh and killing 32 people...what do you expect?

Warper

prettygurrly wrote: »

in fact it's the opposite. the "freedom fighers" back in 1916 weren't exactly supported by joe bloggs on the street. the country was stable, people were making money and a better life for themselves and then the fighting started again. they're only deemed heroes now cos we have rose coloured glasses.

but to be honest....bombing a street in omagh and killing 32 people...what do you expect?

Dissidents planted the Omagh bomb, nothing to do with Sinn Fein

Calhoun

I would consider voting them on the merit of their policies if they dropped both but until then they have way to much real blood on their hands for my liking.

It is its hard to stomach voting for a party where sitting TD's collect Guard killers from prison.

gcgirl

prettygurrly wrote: »

in fact it's the opposite. the "freedom fighers" back in 1916 weren't exactly supported by joe bloggs on the street. the country was stable, people were making money and a better life for themselves and then the fighting started again. they're only deemed heroes now cos we have rose coloured glasses.

but to be honest....bombing a street in omagh and killing 32 people...what do you expect?

Completely the insurgents of 1916 were frowned upon it was only when the leaders of the rising were executed Irish opinion changed and then the war of independence started in late 1917 to 21

Pauleta

Their far-left economic policies were mental so no. There was no hope of me voting for them although they didnt even bother to run a candidate where i live.

MetalDog

No, they're even more economically illiterate than FF were, and they'd also have to drop Marty Ferris to sever the IRA connection.

ixtlan

I'm unlikely to vote for them because of their economic policies, but the linkage with their bloody past does push me even further away.

We all want politicians with conviction, but Sinn Fein have too much conviction. They dragged Northern Ireland (and in some incidences the UK and Ireland) through 30 years of armed struggle which ended up with the place pretty much back where it started... a United Ireland when everyone agrees. Any rights improvements were gained by peace activists and the SDLP.

They did this because they were 100% sure they were right, and 100% sure that everyone else was wrong. They have never acknowledged that they ever did anything wrong, only expressed regrets that things happened that way. A classic non-apology apology, which all politicians use. Cowen's "if we failed in any way we are sorry"... Rabbitte's "if anyone took offence, I'm sorry" (about the good looking FF women comment) are in a similar vein.

Sorry to divert the thread a bit, but such a question cannot be asked without eliciting strong responses.

It may be that the current older generation cannot break the links. Maybe when Adams/Ferris/McGuiness are gone, someone may express a little more than regret.

Ix.