Ivana Bacik. A Failed Political Entity?

Baron_Kunkel

Why does the Labour Party persist with the repeated failed strategy of putting Ivana Bacik forward as a credible political candidate? She has little or no history of achievement in business or public life outside of her academic prowess which, although considerable, is in isolation to anything else of significance as far as I am aware. Her public profile appears to me to be completely out of kilter with her political talent or any sense of connection to the electorate. Gilmore couldn't even pull her into the Dáil as a running mate.

LordSutch

Baron_Kunkel wrote: »

Why does the Labour Party persist with the repeated failed strategy of putting Ivana Bacik forward as a credible political candidate? She has little or no history of achievement in business or public life outside of her academic prowess which, although considerable, is in isolation to anything else of significance as far as I am aware. Her public profile appears to me to be completely out of kilter with her political talent or any sense of connection to the electorate. Gilmore couldn't even pull her into the Dáil as a running mate.

Let me guess now, is this is going to be another Pro Sinn Fein thered?

annoyingbeast

LordSutch wrote: »

Let me guess now, is this is going to be another Pro Sinn Fein thered?

Another pro Sinn Fein thread?? all i have seen on Boards.ie over the weekend is Sinn Fein bashing. Same in the media

Baron_Kunkel

Absolutely not. No vote for SF here, just a general viewpoint. I really don't see any beginning to Ivana's talents....except academia of course.

Rabble Rabble

Well, Academia is a talent.

LordSutch

annoyingbeast wrote: »

Another pro Sinn Fein thread?? all i have seen on Boards.ie over the weekend is Sinn Fein bashing. Same in the media

'Yes' Have a look down the threads, I have now lost count of the SF threads in the political/GE forums, and many of the SF posters seem to be brand new posters too, they seem to be coming out of the woodwork!

Massive 'Sinn Fein hype' in the political forums.

Baron_Kunkel

Lord Sutch, any chance of staying on topic?

panda100

Baron_Kunkel wrote: »

Why does the Labour Party persist with the repeated failed strategy of putting Ivana Bacik forward as a credible political candidate? She has little or no history of achievement in business or public life outside of her academic prowess which, although considerable, is in isolation to anything else of significance as far as I am aware. Her public profile appears to me to be completely out of kilter with her political talent or any sense of connection to the electorate. Gilmore couldn't even pull her into the Dáil as a running mate.

I'm no big fan of her's but I think its unfair to single her out for having no history of achievement in business or public life as very few people running in the elections would have had those.

She has done excellent work in the equality arena, and that can't be said for many candidates. She's hardly a failed political entity when she just narrowly lost out on winning a seat.

trishasaffron

I agree with OP. IB has almost all the credentials that would make me vote for her - female, youngish, articulate, radical with a bit of pragmatism........
But I can't vote for her.............she just seems to have coasted along into politics. If instead of being appointed to the Senate she had actually gone and got a job - set up a business - wrote a novel ....................something tangible and specific. But maybe she's being held to a higher standard cos she's a woman?

In any event if she wants a career as a TD she's got to go and do something different. No more Directorships or cushy jobs - take on something diffilcut without trading on her connections and then I'll vote for her.

Dionysus

Baron_Kunkel wrote: »

Why does the Labour Party persist with the repeated failed strategy of putting Ivana Bacik forward as a credible political candidate? She has little or no history of achievement in business or public life outside of her academic prowess which, although considerable, is in isolation to anything else of significance as far as I am aware. Her public profile appears to me to be completely out of kilter with her political talent or any sense of connection to the electorate. Gilmore couldn't even pull her into the Dáil as a running mate.

Ideologues are generally rejected by the Irish electorate. Bacik's "liberalism above all else" creed is inappropriate, to be polite about it, for a modern audience which faces the economic problems which exist in Ireland. Perhaps if she came back and sold herself as less dogmatic/more realistic more people in an Irish electorate would be open to it. At present it consistently appears like she wants a role in the public sphere which is as ivory-towered as her post in TCD. Personally, I find she might as well be running for Kent if her "high street" terminology is anything to go by. It's like she's just too cool to be, well, Irish, and in the default position of mediocre intellectuals in Ireland she becomes more anglocentric. A true intellectual in Ireland would be inspired by the world beyond Britain. That would be a genuine change in mentalities.

Iwannahurl

Baron_Kunkel wrote: »

Why does the Labour Party persist with the repeated failed strategy of putting Ivana Bacik forward as a credible political candidate? She has little or no history of achievement in business or public life outside of her academic prowess which, although considerable, is in isolation to anything else of significance as far as I am aware. Her public profile appears to me to be completely out of kilter with her political talent or any sense of connection to the electorate. Gilmore couldn't even pull her into the Dáil as a running mate.

I have no idea what the local realities are for candidates seeking election in Dun Laoghaire, but her CV looks fine to me. She's a campaigner on important social and policy issues, and has serious academic and professional qualifications.

http://www.labour.ie/ivanabacik/

What kind of "political talent" or "sense of connection to the electorate" do you think she needs?

Baron_Kunkel

She ran in 2002 and didn't get a seat. she decided not to run in 2007 and went down the road of the seanad job by way of University votes and she also failed in the last European Election. She has had the full might of the Labour party behind her for the guts of 10 years, gets the handy number in Dun Laoghaire as Gilmore's running mate and still coudn't get through. This is in a city that was crying out to elect Labour candidates.

whydoibother?

I don't think she's a failed anything.

She is a successful academic. She is a qualified barrister. She has been a politician in the Seanad and has made many quality contributions to the debate there. Through her campaigning she has successfully highlighted many social issues.

Plus she is getting closer and closer to getting into the Dáil. Her performance in this election was actually very strong, only missing out by the tiniest of margins. Clearly a lot of people wanted her.

I think the diversity of experience she has would actually make her a very good person to have in the Dáil.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Iwannahurl

trishasaffron wrote: »

I agree with OP. IB has almost all the credentials that would make me vote for her - female, youngish, articulate, radical with a bit of pragmatism........
But I can't vote for her.............she just seems to have coasted along into politics. If instead of being appointed to the Senate she had actually gone and got a job - set up a business - wrote a novel ....................something tangible and specific. But maybe she's being held to a higher standard cos she's a woman?

In any event if she wants a career as a TD she's got to go and do something different. No more Directorships or cushy jobs - take on something diffilcut without trading on her connections and then I'll vote for her.

Wrote a novel? Are you serious?

I'm curious: what literary genre would impress you most?

Chucky the tree

A few I as I see it. She hasn't done much for her own constitency. Most politicians become councillors get a support base and push on from there. She's running in an area against far lefty Richard boyd-barret who while being a nut job by accounts has done a lot for the local area and people. Her views are too left I think, someone else pointed out that at least with RBB you know he'll never be in position of power to have his nut job policies implements but Labour/Bacik would be. Not only that but I don't she'd get many if any transfers from male voters.

purple_hatstand

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Beat me to it...:D

Baron_Kunkel

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I have no idea what the local realities are for candidates seeking election in Dun Laoghaire, but her CV looks fine to me. She's a campaigner on important social and policy issues, and has serious academic and professional qualifications.

http://www.labour.ie/ivanabacik/

What kind of "political talent" or "sense of connection to the electorate" do you think she needs?

Well she needs something because what she has isn't enough to pull her through. The bottom line is that she is wheeled out on various current affairs TV programs to speak at a very high level but I don't know if she gets her hands dirty working for the scrappy votes. I think Council experience would stand to her but I feel she may see that as beneath her.

tricky D

She needs to work a bit harder on being more personable and lose some of the ivory tower attitude. I've heard more than one story of her engaging poorly with some of the general public. Her CV is fine and a lot better than many others.

Manach

She would be the opposite end of the political spectrum from me, but her papers in academia are respected enough to cited and as well she did write a book "Kicking & Screaming".
In another thread other posters had mentioned her lack of connection to voters.

Hunchback

I'm gutted she didn't get through and would give her my first preference again in a heartbeat. I actually DO feel that she connects with the electorate. Well, certainly me and a lot of my friends anyway, as she has a much higher visibility than almost any other politician, with the exception of David Norris, when it comes to the gay community.

Iwannahurl

Baron_Kunkel wrote: »

Well she needs something because what she has isn't enough to pull her through. The bottom line is that she is wheeled out on various current affairs TV programs to speak at a very high level but I don't know if she gets her hands dirty working for the scrappy votes. I think Council experience would stand to her but I feel she may see that as beneath her.

I'm not familiar with the constituency so I have no idea what the local Labour wisdom is regarding her electability. Maybe they dislike her too? Maybe Gilmore's crew didn't manage the votes properly?

Issues campaigner RBB didn't work for DLRCC either, AFAIK. But perhaps he might agree regarding Bacik's flaws?!

Getting your "hands dirty working for the scrappy votes" sounds to me like potholes and medical cards. I thought we were striving to leave that clientilism behind in order to bring about real political change?

Hunchback

sorry, to qualify that post, her thousands of first preferences would suggest that she's not a failed political entity, despite failing to get elected

mikemac

Needs to pick a constituency and stick to it.
People don't like parachute candidates and she doesn't live in both Dublin Central and Dún Laoghaire.
She did well in the election but not close enough

http://www.ivanabacik.ie/newsletters
Not a section on constituency work, does she work in the local area?

Maybe a spell as a councillor would help her, she can build up a support base

Baron_Kunkel

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the constituency so I have no idea what the local Labour wisdom is regarding her electability. Maybe they dislike her too? Maybe Gilmore's crew didn't manage the votes properly?

Issues campaigner RBB didn't work for DLRCC either, AFAIK. But perhaps he might agree regarding Bacik's flaws?!

Getting your "hands dirty working for the scrappy votes" sounds to me like potholes and medical cards. I thought we were striving to leave that clientilism behind in order to bring about real political change?

"Gilmores crew didn't manage the votes properly"? There were only 2 Labour candidates in the election in this constituency. She didn't pull in enough transfers because she wasn't a credible number 2 option for people who voted for Gilmore.

......and you don't have to fill potholes and get medical cards for an electorate to identify with you as a representative of their constituency.

Iwannahurl

feelingstressed wrote: »

Needs to pick a constituency and stick to it.
People don't like parachute candidates and she doesn't live in both Dublin Central and Dún Laoghaire.
She did well in the election but not close enough

http://www.ivanabacik.ie/newsletters
Not a section on constituency work, does she work in the local area?

Maybe a spell as a councillor would help her, she can build up a support base

So there are still parish pumps in Dun Laoghaire then? There was I thinking they were a rural Ireland phenomenon, driving the Dubs crazy with the backwardness of it...

Chucky the tree

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So there are still parish pumps in Dun Laoghaire then? There was I thinking they were a rural Ireland phenomenon, driving the Dubs crazy with the backwardness of it...

There's parish pump politics in every constituency.

Baron_Kunkel

Ivanahurl......are you, in fact, Ivana Bacik in disguise?

Blowfish

I think people are completely overestimating Labour's support in Dun Laoghaire and how much influence Gilmore actually has. Despite being a Dublin constituency, Labour have never been strong here and even when it was a 5 seater, Labour has never gotten more than one seat. This election is the first time ever that either Labour or Gilmore has topped the polls and the only reason they managed to do that is because of the vote management from FG to get Mary Mitchell O'Connor in.

Freiheit

I've always liked her, socialy liberal, intellectual and atheist. Whether that would appeal to an electorate really depends on her consitituency I suppose. Reminds me a bit of Barak Obama in terms of intellect and fluency , who I've always felt wouldn't get elected to the Dail because people wouldn't connect with him. I hope Ivana succeeds in the future, she certainly could , but whether she still has the desire in 4 or 5 years remains to be seen.

Blowfish

Freiheit wrote: »

I've always liked her, socialy liberal, intellectual and atheist. Whether that would appeal to an electorate really depends on her consitituency I suppose.

In that aspect, she was in completely the wrong constituency. Hanafin went through on first count in 2007 and she's from an incredibly conservative background and carried a lot of that background through when in office, in fact her brother resigned in protest over the civil partnership bill.

hatrickpatrick

I read through her manifesto last night. She's one of the worst cases of misandry disguised as "feminism" I have ever seen.

Until she withdraws her stance on prison sentencing, I will never, ever vote for her. Equality means equality on everything, you have to take the rough with the smooth. Her opinions on crime make me sick. If a man does it it's because men are "prone" to it. If a woman does it, it's someone else's fault, or "she had no choice".

gizmo555

Freiheit wrote: »

Reminds me a bit of Barak Obama in terms of intellect and fluency , who I've always felt wouldn't get elected to the Dail because people wouldn't connect with him.

uberwolf

I think it is fair to say failed. She has obviously impressed some people within the Labour party, and they keep wheeling her out into elections when I feel that another candidate would not have been given as many opportunities.

I admire the woman, despite my strongly disagreeing with some of her positions. She at least instigates debate, but seems to my casual observation to have a very narrow focus, and that focus doesn't seem to connect with a broad enough constituency to achieve office. She has a use as a public commentator however.

Dyr

She's been parachuted into more places then the french foreign legion and still never elected. A classic labour nanny state merchant.

Dionysus

feelingstressed wrote: »

Needs to pick a constituency and stick to it.
People don't like parachute candidates and she doesn't live in both Dublin Central and Dún Laoghaire.

This, too.

Dionysus

Chucky the tree wrote: »

A few I as I see it. She hasn't done much for her own constitency. Most politicians become councillors get a support base and push on from there. She's running in an area against far lefty Richard boyd-barret who while being a nut job by accounts has done a lot for the local area and people. Her views are too left I think

Examples?

DublinWriter

Baron_Kunkel wrote: »

Why does the Labour Party persist with the repeated failed strategy of putting Ivana Bacik forward as a credible political candidate? She has little or no history of achievement in business or public life outside of her academic prowess which...

Yes, obviously she should have been going to more funerals and opening more Londis' for you to take her seriously as a politician.

Nolanger

Unwritten rule of Irish politics: no THIN ugly Irish women need apply!

Baron_Kunkel

uberwolf wrote: »

I think it is fair to say failed. She has obviously impressed some people within the Labour party, and they keep wheeling her out into elections when I feel that another candidate would not have been given as many opportunities.

I admire the woman, despite my strongly disagreeing with some of her positions. She at least instigates debate, but seems to my casual observation to have a very narrow focus, and that focus doesn't seem to connect with a broad enough constituency to achieve office. She has a use as a public commentator however.

Agree entirely.

Chucky the tree

Dionysus wrote: »

Examples?

Pro abortion, not fully pro drugs but far more lax then most, female quotas(not sure if that's left though) and when I saw her on Primetime she seemed more left on economic issues for the purposes of social protection.

Baron_Kunkel

DublinWriter wrote: »

Yes, obviously she should have been going to more funerals and opening more Londis' for you to take her seriously as a politician.

I do take her seriously.....thats why I started the thread so that we could have open discussion, not just shoot down opinions with naff oneliners. If you read subsequent posts you'd realise that i addressed the parish pump issue earlier.

Liam Byrne

If there had been a quota would she have gotten in ?

Amazing how she pushes an unwanted agenda that would suit her and make up for her shortcomings.

Dionysus

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Pro abortion, not fully pro drugs but far more lax then most, female quotas(not sure if that's left though)

All of which are liberal issues, not left-wing issues. Being in favour of abortion, for instance, can easily be considered a right-wing stance.

She's a liberal ideologue, not a left-wing ideologue. Sometimes both can cross, but her intention is to focus on individual rights above social and community protections. I have seen no evidence of her being a "left-wing" ideologue.

Min

It was the highlight of the election for me, I said 'please God don't let her get elected'. She won't mind as she is an atheist.
I am just glad the electorate in DL decided they should show Ivana what it is like to be given the chance to live and dream about the Dáil only for her hopes to be aborted by the electorate. She won't take any offense she wants abortion legalised.
She also wants no schools associated with a religious body, doesn't matter if they are well run, the best in the country, they shouldn't be allowed according to our Ivana, Ivana would have had all Irish people ignorant and uneducated when the British ruled here when they banned education to catholics under the penal laws, it was the church in their pastoral role that helped provide education to Catholics. What would our Ivana have done? Protested they weren't secular and have no one educated?

Ivana may be an intellectual but not when it comes to Irish society, she has not shown she is electable and she does't know how to get elected, if I was her I would have kept some of those views quiet but the genie is out and there are other people they would rather elect, even if one finds them surprising like RBB.

Dionysus

DublinWriter wrote: »

Yes, obviously she should have been going to more funerals and opening more Londis' for you to take her seriously as a politician.

The fact remains that when you elect somebody to the national legislature in Ireland, in the overwhelming majority of cases they are elected for their work on local issues, not their legislative initiative or skill.

This is wrong, and Fine Gael has promised to radically reform the electoral system, abolishing PR-STV system in the process. I, for one, will watch the development of this promise (and the abolition of the Seanad and reduction in the numbers of Dáil seats promises) very, very, very closely.


I intend to establish a thread here on just how many of Fine Gael's promises are being fulfilled. I'm completely in favour of accountable government. I hope all the Fine Gael voters will be just as keen on such a thread.

invinciblePRSTV

I've actually warmed to Bacik in recent times, and believe she was the brains behind Labour's constitutional convention proposal, she talks a good talk about how the country needs a constitution reflective of 21st Century Ireland, and not the 1930s throwback currently in situ.

However i think if she can't get elected this time out in DL with the gale blowing in her favour, then she's never going to get a Dail seat. As alluded to by others, you need to be a full time representative in Irish constituencies and groom a support base, or at least have a prominent relative or other senior party member bigging you up in order to secure enough FPVs. Bacik needs to cut the Trinity apron-strings and go full time in DL if she really want's to win a seat. As a well paid academic with a young family, i can't see it happening. But on the plus side for her she's almost certainly to get a Seanad nomination.

Min

Dionysus wrote: »

The fact remains that when you elect somebody to the national legislature in Ireland, in the overwhelming majority of cases they are elected for their work on local issues, not their legislative initiative or skill.

This is wrong, and Fine Gael has promised to radically reform the electoral system, abolishing PR-STV system in the process. I, for one, will watch the development of this promise (and the abolition of the Seanad and reduction in the numbers of Dáil seats promises) very, very, very closely.


I intend to establish a thread here on just how many of Fine Gael's promises are being fulfilled. I'm completely in favour of accountable government. I hope all the Fine Gael voters will be just as keen on such a thread.

What about Labour if they are in government with them?

irishh_bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I read through her manifesto last night. She's one of the worst cases of misandry disguised as "feminism" I have ever seen.

Until she withdraws her stance on prison sentencing, I will never, ever vote for her. Equality means equality on everything, you have to take the rough with the smooth. Her opinions on crime make me sick. If a man does it it's because men are "prone" to it. If a woman does it, it's someone else's fault, or "she had no choice".

to the likes of bacik , OFFICIAL equality only extends to PC liberal sacred cow issues , female on male violence is not a liberal sacred cow issue

irishh_bob

Dionysus wrote: »

All of which are liberal issues, not left-wing issues. Being in favour of abortion, for instance, can easily be considered a right-wing stance.

She's a liberal ideologue, not a left-wing ideologue. Sometimes both can cross, but her intention is to focus on individual rights above social and community protections. I have seen no evidence of her being a "left-wing" ideologue.

bacik is a left liberal , in that shes liberal on social issues and left wing on economic issues

despite the fact that the public for the most part dont like the woman , i suspect the labour party just cant help themselves when it comes to bacik , like many lefties , they believe society needs to be reformed by goverment and who better to do it than right thinking ivana

Min

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I've actually warmed to Bacik in recent times, and believe she was the brains behind Labour's constitutional convention proposal, she talks a good talk about how the country needs a constitution reflective of 21st Century Ireland, and not the 1930s throwback currently in situ.

However i think if she can't get elected this time out in DL with the gale blowing in her favour, then she's never going to get a Dail seat. As alluded to by others, you need to be a full time representative in Irish constituencies and groom a support base, or at least have a prominent relative or other senior party member bigging you up in order to secure enough FPVs. Bacik needs to cut the Trinity apron-strings and go full time in DL if she really want's to win a seat. As a well paid academic with a young family, i can't see it happening. But on the plus side for her she's almost certainly to get a Seanad nomination.

I wouldn't call it the brains behind Labour's constitutional convention proposal, I posted on this forum in the Labour - abortion thread that Labour wanted a new constitution so they could remove things like the equal right to life of the mother and unborn.
It was later said on the radio on the Marian Finucane show that this is one reason why some want a new constitution - makes sense if Ivana was behind it, people will see through it for what it is worth and if that is all Ivana can offer us then no surprise she didn't get elected.