Why doesn't FG coalesce with FF?

trishasaffron

The numbers are perfect and the economic policies v similar? Surely they've a lot more in common than FG/Lab...............................

Sierra Oscar

Probably due to the fact that the Irish people firmly rejected FF in the election . . . I don't think they want FF to be in the next government.

Liam Byrne

Because FG would then be as guilty of betrayal as the Greens were - maybe even more so - and would never, ever have credibility again.

Min

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Probably due to the fact that the Irish people firmly rejected FF in the election . . . I don't think they want FF to be in the next government.

Yeah, and I think FF want to be in opposition so they have time to rebuild, as this was another election where opposition benches is the best place to be.

trishasaffron

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Probably due to the fact that the Irish people firmly rejected FF in the election . . . I don't think they want FF to be in the next government.

Yebbut................pragmatism is the keynote now. It'd be just as easy to argue that "the people" voted for centre right economic policies to be implemented and not for a centre right/socialist coalition.

And on the plus side it'd be the very final nail in FF's coffin:D

Sierra Oscar

trishasaffron wrote: »

Yebbut................pragmatism is the keynote now. It'd be just as easy to argue that "the people" voted for centre right economic policies to be implemented and not for a centre right/socialist coalition.

And on the plus side it'd be the very final nail in FF's coffin:D

Labour are socialist?

First I have heard . . . the reality is far from that.

Min wrote: »

Yeah, and I think FF want to be in opposition so they have time to rebuild, as this was another election where opposition benches is the best place to be.

Well indeed, naturally being in opposition this time around will allow the party room to rebuild.

Flukey

Labour railed against Fianna Fáil in the run up to the 1992 election. Labour won the most amount of seats they had ever got. They then went into government with Fianna Fáil. The electorate did not forget that at the next election and Labour suffered. Similar fates happened to the PDs and Greens since. There is no way Fine Gael can now go into government with Fianna Fáil, as everyone has said. You can't spend years attacking the worst government of all time from the opposition benches and then bring the remnants of them into government. DUP and Sinn Féin is different, before anyone brings that example up. Part of the Good Friday Agreement is that there has to be representation from both sides of the community in the government there. Otherwise there is no way they would be sharing power. Fine Gael have the freedom to choose Fianna Fáil, but there is no way they will.

Sticky_Fingers

trishasaffron wrote: »

Yebbut................pragmatism is the keynote now. It'd be just as easy to argue that "the people" voted for centre right economic policies to be implemented and not for a centre right/socialist coalition.

And on the plus side it'd be the very final nail in FF's coffin:D

I think a FF/FG amalgamation would be the straw that broke the camels back for the country, there would probably be riots on the street since the people voted to get rid of FF and their ilk. Any possibility that any FFer could somehow weasel their way back into government be it in coalition or by absorption would enrage large sections of the population, myself included. We want FF to go off and die on the opposition benches, FG would be very very foolish to think they could get away with pulling a stroke like that.

sink

I think there is potential for a FG/FF coalition in 5 years time. With FG being the senior and FF being the junior party. If this happens you will likely see a gradual merger of the parties. Civil war politics are no longer a factor and there is nothing solid keeping these two parties apart anymore.

Liam Byrne

sink wrote: »

I think there is potential for a FG/FF coalition in 5 years time. With FG being the senior and FF being the junior party. If this happens you will likely see a gradual merger of the parties. Civil war politics are no longer a factor and there is nothing solid keeping these two parties apart anymore.

Sorry - have to disagree. Corruption and delusion are "solid" enough for me.

Killer Pigeon

trishasaffron wrote: »

The numbers are perfect and the economic policies v similar? Surely they've a lot more in common than FG/Lab...............................

It's like wanting to go into coalition with the Chernobyl Resettlement Party - it will damage their health.

alkev

trishasaffron wrote: »

The numbers are perfect and the economic policies v similar? Surely they've a lot more in common than FG/Lab...............................

Are you for real?

oppenheimer1

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry - have to disagree. Corruption and delusion are "solid" enough for me.

Give it 5 years and you'll find that power tends to breed corruption. Its at local level in all parties so I don't expect it to go away just because the ministers are of a diferent colour.

FF don't want to be in government but it is believeable that they would support a FG minority govt in a few years when the kitchen gets too hot for Labour.

aDeener

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry - have to disagree. Corruption and delusion are "solid" enough for me.

there is no corruption in fine gael? lol

raymon

Corruption and incompetence , FF should just disband in shame .

To make a new start they should rebrand.

For example NCA - not corrupt anymore

Syferus

aDeener wrote: »

there is no corruption in fine gael? lol

That's really not much of a rebuttal of the point!

Liam Byrne

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Give it 5 years and you'll find that power tends to breed corruption. Its at local level in all parties so I don't expect it to go away just because the ministers are of a diferent colour.
.

We can only hope, but as I've said previously FG do at least seem to have some limits to what they'll condone and overlook.

I would hope that not everyone is of as low standards as you seem to suspect; and if I'm wrong, there's no real loss because I'd prefer not to live in a country that rewards incompetence and corruption - something we've seen in both public and private capacities under FF.

Liam Byrne

raymon wrote: »

Corruption and incompetence , FF should just disband in shame .

To make a new start they should rebrand.

For example NCA - not corrupt anymore

Rebranding is pointless optics.

Martin fired the flare for "more of the same" by reinstating O'Dea.

thebman

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Give it 5 years and you'll find that power tends to breed corruption. Its at local level in all parties so I don't expect it to go away just because the ministers are of a diferent colour.

FF don't want to be in government but it is believeable that they would support a FG minority govt in a few years when the kitchen gets too hot for Labour.

Oh I agree and next time out I most likely will not be voting FG already. Rotate each election IMO. Only way to ensure they only have time to f*** up the place a little.

I do hope they reform the political system do as I believe it is even in their interest as they have not got in for a long time so the current system obviously doesn't favor them so hopefully we will get some proper reform and a new FF for next election that might be worth voting for.

aDeener

Syferus wrote: »

That's really not much of a rebuttal of the point!

well if one of the reasons for FG not having anything to do with FF is due to corruption and cronyism i think it's a bit rich. do you not?

i mean surely there is no one here who thinks FG are squeaky clean?

Liam Byrne

aDeener wrote: »

well if one of the reasons for FG not having anything to do with FF is due to corruption and cronyism i think it's a bit rich. do you not?

i mean surely there is no one here who thinks FG are squeaky clean?

No, there isn't, despite your attempts to imply that there are.

But in terms of serious corruption FG kick out even known vote-getters, acknowledging that no-one should align with them, while FF accept the same rejects and then reinstate and protect their own brand of rats.

So the levels of corruption are completely different.

Some day we might have a completely non-corrupt party, but until then the obvious thing to do is to minimise it and give those who support it a trouncing to show that it won't be tolerated.

Bistoman

aDeener wrote: »

well if one of the reasons for FG not having anything to do with FF is due to corruption and cronyism i think it's a bit rich. do you not?

i mean surely there is no one here who thinks FG are squeaky clean?

They will prove that they are Not, But they havint got us into the mess We are in, FF did that, and I dont think the Irish will ever forgive that, and Never forgive any party that gives them a chance.
Ireland sent out a very Clear message on Friday, " Do You Job or Get the **** out" And if FG want to see a full 5 years, they will do well to remember that.

dvpower

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

I think a FF/FG amalgamation would be the straw that broke the camels back for the country, there would probably be riots on the street since the people voted to get rid of FF and their ilk. Any possibility that any FFer could somehow weasel their way back into government be it in coalition or by absorption would enrage large sections of the population, myself included. We want FF to go off and die on the opposition benches, FG would be very very foolish to think they could get away with pulling a stroke like that.

How about FF supporting a minority FG government, but not being in government?

Bistoman

dvpower wrote: »

How about FF supporting a minority FG government, but not being in government?

Mehole Martian has already said that He will do that, But that doesn't mean Kenny has to acknowledge it, He can always accept Votes But not have to do a formal Joining of the parties.

Manach

Given this mania of merges - perhaps next up is the Labour/SF?

Hasschu

The two parties are so closely related they would be accused of incestuous impropriety. (I refer to FF-FG)

tracking

That post could be sufixed with "instead of splitting hairs and save us all a lot of time". The next General Election however soon, will undoubtably return the same view of them.

kryogen

There really isnt much difference in the two parties in fairness, maybe its a civil war politics that stops them ever entering coalition together, maybe its because FF are so unpopular right now that it would be suicidal for FG to be open to partnership with them

Either way it wont happen now, and wont happen for the forseeable future imo

Mal-Adjusted

thebman wrote: »

I do hope they reform the political system do as I believe it is even in their interest as they have not got in for a long time so the current system obviously doesn't favor them so hopefully we will get some proper reform and a new FF for next election that might be worth voting for.

what? sorry to go off topic, but it sounds like FF are somehow the default setting and everyone only voted them out to "teach them a lesson" and vote them in next time.
i'm not saying that this is your attitude or anything, but it seems to be the norm among the sheep :mad:

aDeener

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No, there isn't, despite your attempts to imply that there are.

But in terms of serious corruption FG kick out even known vote-getters, acknowledging that no-one should align with them, while FF accept the same rejects and then reinstate and protect their own brand of rats.

So the levels of corruption are completely different.

Some day we might have a completely non-corrupt party, but until then the obvious thing to do is to minimise it and give those who support it a trouncing to show that it won't be tolerated.

PJ Sheehan?

the groutch

not worth it for a short-term gain
it'd guarantee a Labour-SF coalition in 2016 (possibly earlier)

Liam Byrne

the groutch wrote: »

not worth it for a short-term gain
it'd guarantee a Labour-SF coalition in 2016 (possibly earlier)

How can it guarantee that ? SF have a long way to go to prove that they've left their past behind and are capable of working for more than just their core support.

Step 1 will be complete the day I hear Gerry Adams recognise that - now that he is a representative of this country - abandon his "26 counties" phrase and refer to this state as what it is - a sovereign state.

Liam Byrne

aDeener wrote: »

PJ Sheehan?

OK, I'll bite - so they're 1:1 re Sheehan & McDaid.

Now, where are the FG equivalents of Haughey, Ahern, Lawlor, Burke, O'Donoghue, O'Dea ?

raymon

..............Cooper flynn,pee flynn, Callely , etc etc etc

Rotten to the very core

raymon

What's your point aDeener??

That FF was not corrupt ? Or that FG would have been corrupt ?

guitarzero

It would mean the media would have to give more recognition to Sinn Fein as opposion. .

aDeener

raymon wrote: »

What's your point aDeener??

That FF was not corrupt ? Or that FG would have been corrupt ?

my point is that there is corruption in FG too.

if someone were to rob €1 million from a bank tomorrow and i were to rob only €10,000 the next day, does that make me less a criminal?

raymon

aDeener wrote: »

my point is that there is corruption in FG too.

if someone were to rob €1 million from a bank tomorrow and i were to rob only €10,000 the next day, does that make me less a criminal?

I see your example about thievery and how it applies to FF. I agree there are many cases of thievery and corruption in FF .

I am no huge fan of FG but I don't see where they have been corrupt . Can you explain ?

aDeener

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK, I'll bite - so they're 1:1 re Sheehan & McDaid.

Now, where are the FG equivalents of Haughey, Ahern, Lawlor, Burke, O'Donoghue, O'Dea ?

so it's a point scoring competition now? do you transfer this logic to all aspects of politics?

aDeener

raymon wrote: »

I see your example about thievery and how it applies to FF. I agree there are many cases of thievery and corruption in FF .

I am no huge fan of FG but I don't see where they have been corrupt . Can you explain ?

PJ sheehan (enda kenny told a sergeant to just 'forget' what sheehan said), michael lowry (i acknowledge that he was dealt with afterwards)

even john bruton said "there are no angels in the world or fine gael" after tom hand's bribery attempts.

the attempts to sully FF as the only party with corruption in their ranks is extremely naive

raymon

aDeener wrote: »

PJ sheehan (enda kenny told a sergeant to just 'forget' what sheehan said), michael lowry (i acknowledge that he was dealt with afterwards)

even john bruton said "there are no angels in the world or fine gael" after tom hand's bribery attempts.

the attempts to sully FF as the only party with corruption in their ranks is extremely naive

Sheehan was an idiot and should have been fired. I dislike the man with a passion.

However there are a huge amount of FF cases of real corruption.

They even took lowry under their wing ,

Shame on FF

aDeener

raymon wrote: »

Sheehan was an idiot and should have been fired. I dislike the man with a passion.

However there are a huge amount of FF cases of real corruption.

They even took lowry under their wing ,

Shame on FF

what is false corruption about threatening a guard that he will ruin her career when he gets into power?

what is false corruption about tom hand's antics?

RachaelVO

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Give it 5 years and you'll find that power tends to breed corruption. Its at local level in all parties so I don't expect it to go away just because the ministers are of a diferent colour.

FF don't want to be in government but it is believeable that they would support a FG minority govt in a few years when the kitchen gets too hot for Labour.

Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!

raymon

aDeener wrote: »

what is false corruption about threatening a guard that he will ruin her career when he gets into power?

what is false corruption about tom hand's antics?

Muppets both of them lock them up !!! No argument there .

My point is that FF was riddled with documented cases of corruption ,thievery, lying, misrepresentation, perjury, drunk driving, tax evasion, facilitating others to avoid tax, forgery etc etc

That is on top of arrogance, incompetence, and financial treason.

Let's get back on topic, why would FG want to team up with FF??

nacho libre

Indeed. I Remember when Messianic Tony said Labour needed to be whiter than whiter upon election in 1997, because the years of Tory Sleaze had created a disconnect between the electorate and the politicans. It seems to me if a party is in power long enough they tend to stray from the path as the saying goes. Perhaps if there is truly is a sesimic shift in the way politics is done in this country that might change. I have my doubts though.

As regards FF having a monpoly on corruption, is that really true?- if you look at the corruption at council level, over things like rezoning, it wasn't just FF councillors that were being bold.

aDeener

raymon wrote: »

Muppets both of them lock them up !!! No argument there .

My point is that FF was riddled with documented cases of corruption ,thievery, lying, misrepresentation, perjury, drunk driving, tax evasion, facilitating others to avoid tax, forgery etc etc

That is on top of arrogance, incompetence, and financial treason.

Let's get back on topic, why would FG want to team up with FF??

i was responding to the reason given why FG would not want to team up with FF.

There are no angels in fine gael either. so it would be hypocritical of FG to use that as a reason.

aDeener

nacho libre wrote: »

Indeed. I Remember when Messianic Tony said Labour needed to be whiter than whiter upon election in 1997, because the years of Tory Sleaze had created a disconnect between the electorate and the politicans. It seems to me if a party is in power long enough they tend to stray from the path as the saying goes. Perhaps if there is truly is a sesimic shift in the way politics is done in this country that might change. I have my doubts though.

As regards FF having a monpoly on corruption, is that really true?- if you look at the corruption at council level, over things like rezoning, it wasn't just FF councillors that were being bold.

a very valid point that has been mysteriously tucked away by the media

Capt'n Midnight

Why can't FF merge with FG ?

FF are toxic and associated with corruption (FG aren't angels but few are in the same league )

Remember the PD's - they left FF with the slogan of "high standards in high places" The rottenness in FF still hasn't been sorted out. Far too often FF have welcomed dodgy TD's back into the fold (provided they won their seats) to believe that being expelled from the party actually means anything.

FF are just too corrupt and for too long, Haughey and his ilk and every generation of FF politicians since , it's endemic and IMHO the few decent politicians left should either jump ship because the amount of work they will need to regain trust will be enormous. eg. Gilmore didn't start off in Labour.

Liam Byrne

aDeener wrote: »

my point is that there is corruption in FG too.

if someone were to rob €1 million from a bank tomorrow and i were to rob only €10,000 the next day, does that make me less a criminal?

Completely inaccurate analogy.

If you were to rob €10,000 and someone refused as a result to deal with your entire extended family, then that would be worth arguing your case.

If 10 well-known members of your extended family were to rob €10,000 each, then it's perfectly logical to be adverse to dealing with your extended family.

aDeener

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Completely inaccurate analogy.

If you were to rob €10,000 and someone refused as a result to deal with your entire extended family, then that would be worth arguing your case.

If 10 well-known members of your extended family were to rob €10,000 each, then it's perfectly logical to be adverse to dealing with your extended family.

it is not inaccurate at all. FF have stolen 1 million and have been rightly castigated for it. FG have stole 10,000 and are being perceived as angels.


do you apply your point scoring logic to all aspects of politics?

Liam Byrne

aDeener wrote: »

it is not inaccurate at all. FF have stolen 1 million and have been rightly castigated for it. FG have stole 10,000 and are being perceived as angels.

Ignore the facts if you want to. No-one bar yourself has referred to them as "angels", and the issue with FF isn't the amount stolen, it's the number of them involved.

If Bernie Madoff was an FF member and was kicked out when found out, then no-one would reflect on that as being a party issue; the amount of money is irrelevant.

Where the amount of money IS relevant is the €100,000,000,000 and counting that FF decisions have cost us (another reason not to coalition with them, since they're that incompetent)

do you apply your point scoring logic to all aspects of politics?

Not at all. If you can point out any significant number of corrupt FF TDs I'll take your point seriously, regardless of whether the numbers equal FF.

I only did the 1:1 earlier to point out that if McDaid was the worst that FF had done then we wouldn't be talking about a corrupt party, we'd be talking about a single drunken idiot.