Does Anyone Find This 19th Century Style Count a Tad Embarrassing?

Laois_Man

I like the drama of the drawn out manual count. But looking at news of this count flash up on CNN earlier this evening, I did cringe a bit. Every other developed country can call a definite result within hours of the polls closing and we'll probably have some re-counts still going on next Monday.

I know the first past the post system that most country's have is a lot easier to count. But what ever was so complicated about getting those e-voting machines to work properly?

Dirk Gently

nah, the count is the best part of the election process.

loldog

No. It's brilliant entertainment and I'm very proud of our electoral system.

.

Raging_Ninja

In the US some counts go on for days, and occasionally they have to go to the courts. There's nothing wrong with having counts go on for a few days.

I think it adds to it - the monumental task of electing a new government, counting each physical ballot one at a time. Doing things electronically makes it cold and bureaucratic. With the pen and paper, you feel like you've achieved something.

im invisible

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

..you feel like you've achieved something.

when, in reality.....

mikemac

Reminds me of 2007

I had to go down to Co Meath the other day and apologise to the people of Meath for being a modern technologically-advanced country and one of the biggest exporters of software, that we’re going back to the pencils”.

“If this House did not want to play politics with the issue, we would not be the laughing stock of Europe by carrying out a vote for two million people by using pencils. A ridiculous situation.”

Bertie Ahern TD

The current system is fine and today is the best part of it. It's great entertainment and people can get more involved then an officer reading some printout from a machine
If you can wait five years for an election you can wait one day for the results

yoshytoshy

I thought we were computerised with this stuff already ,smart economy and all that.

AndyP

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

In the US some counts go on for days, and occasionally they have to go to the courts. There's nothing wrong with having counts go on for a few days.

And look at the administration the Americans got a few years ago because they CAN'T count votes properly.
Nothing wrong with the system in my view.

swampgas

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I thought we were computerised with this stuff already ,smart economy and all that.

The more a person knows about computers, the less they like electronic voting.

The great thing about the current system is that it is open and transparent, you can actually see the counting take place. I'd prefer that over electronic voting any day.

There are many things computers are great for, reliable anonymous voting isn't one of them.

Ref: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2004/11/the_problem_wit.html

M cebee

seems's silly alright counting votes


and the tallying and election drama seems out of place because of all the serious problems we have

we'll have to dust down those machines

Wolfe Tone

No its great!!!

amdublin

Nope. I love it.

yoshytoshy

swampgas wrote: »

The more a person knows about computers, the less they like electronic voting.

The great thing about the current system is that it is open and transparent, you can actually see the counting take place. I'd prefer that over electronic voting any day.

There are many things computers are great for, reliable anonymous voting isn't one of them.

Ref: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2004/11/the_problem_wit.html

I never thought about it that way ,just presumed that electronic counting is the way things progress.

dashboard_hula

No, it's good, and I hope the current system is kept for a long time yet. I spent a few hours at my aunts today, and she had the election running on both TV's and the PC. The 3 teenagers in the house were glued to the telly everytime a returning officer came on to announce a result, and actual conversations were had about what each candidate/party stands for and what the consequences would be. T'was great, I don't think there'd be that level of engagement with e-voting.

Lapin

What happens to all the ballot papers after the count ?

Are they stored away somewhere or destroyed ?

blubloblu

swampgas wrote: »

The more a person knows about computers, the less they like electronic voting.

The great thing about the current system is that it is open and transparent, you can actually see the counting take place. I'd prefer that over electronic voting any day.

There are many things computers are great for, reliable anonymous voting isn't one of them.

Ref: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2004/11/the_problem_wit.html

Have you seen this? http://blog.ted.com/2010/11/02/e-voting-without-fraud-david-bismark-on-ted-com/

Eliot Rosewater

Laois_Man wrote: »

Every other developed country can call a definite result within hours of the polls closing and we'll probably have some re-counts still going on next Monday.

You'd like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/election_2010/8666278.stm

MagicMarker

loldog wrote: »

No. It's brilliant entertainment and I'm very proud of our electoral system.

.

Easily satisfied eh?

Laois_Man

AndyP wrote: »

And look at the administration the Americans got a few years ago because they CAN'T count votes properly.
Nothing wrong with the system in my view.

I dont understand this comparison. In 2000, Florida was not using computerised voting. They were counting holes manually punched thru paper and spent weeks arguing over those that weren't punched thru 100% completely or were a tiny bit against the line. Plus the fact that Florida which just happened to have George Bush's brother as their governor made up rules on the day about who was allowed to vote and who wasn't. Plus the fact that Bush's eventual fate was decided by Daddy's old friends in the US Supreme Court. Nothing whatsoever to do with e-voting!

colly10

Laois_Man wrote: »

I like the drama of the drawn out manual count. But looking at news of this count flash up on CNN earlier this evening, I did cringe a bit. Every other developed country can call a definite result within hours of the polls closing and we'll probably have some re-counts still going on next Monday.

I know the first past the post system that most country's have is a lot easier to count. But what ever was so complicated about getting those e-voting machines to work properly?

There's constant talk of election fixing in the states, the system works, I couldn't care what the rest of the world think

ShooterSF

It is entertaining but give me a list system any day.

Laois_Man

I find it interesting that people will trust computers to do their banking and keep their records straight but won't trust them to anonymously and correctly count votes.

the_syco

Laois_Man wrote: »

I find it interesting that people will trust computers to do their banking and keep their records straight but won't trust them to anonymously and correctly count votes.

A lot more can be gained by rigging the vote.

InTheTrees

Last night I was shocked that everyone went home after the polls closed and only started counting this morning.

Now that I'm watching the counting I can see why they wanted a rest last night.

But I think its been a great day of watching democracy in action and there's a whole weekend to go. Whats the hurry?

colly10

Laois_Man wrote: »

I find it interesting that people will trust computers to do their banking and keep their records straight but won't trust them to anonymously and correctly count votes.

Because it's anonymous and I can't verify what happened, i've worked with computers most of my life and seen the quality of software that goes into production, I wouldn't trust it

Downlinz

It isn't about entertainment or getting people involved. It's about an accurate and fair system. You do wonder what the margin of error is when it comes to human counts and how many ballots are unintentionally spoiled.

Would probably be cost effective to not have to rent dozens of halls and hotel rooms up and down the country to host counts either.

thebman

Laois_Man wrote: »

I dont understand this comparison. In 2000, Florida was not using computerised voting. They were counting holes manually punched thru paper and spent weeks arguing over those that weren't punched thru 100% completely or were a tiny bit against the line. Plus the fact that Florida which just happened to have George Bush's brother as their governor made up rules on the day about who was allowed to vote and who wasn't. Plus the fact that Bush's eventual fate was decided by Daddy's old friends in the US Supreme Court. Nothing whatsoever to do with e-voting!

you really should look up their e-voting systems they have trialled more.

Programmers have sworn under oath that they were told to put back doors in whether lying or not, it is always a possiblity and why e-voting can't work properly IMO.

Laois_Man

colly10 wrote: »

Because it's anonymous and I can't verify what happened, i've worked with computers most of my life and seen the quality of software that goes into production, I wouldn't trust it

There's nothing wrong with production software that's PROPERLY validated and exhaustively tested and secured.

thebman

Laois_Man wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with production software that's PROPERLY validated and exhaustively tested and secured.

There is if the validation company is also bought off!!

eagle eye

I love the count I have to say and like said above computer programs are open to manipulation which is a concern. And anyways the country is broke, we can't very well go off spending money on something that hopefully will only be in use once or twice every five years imo.

Rabble Rabble

There is no way to verify the software.

1) The guy writing the software could have added a bug, or been corrupt.
2) The verifiers could be corrupt.
3) Showing someone source code means nothing. It may not be on the actual machine.
4) When people talk about OCR and keeping the votes as verification then they admit that system is flawed.

the electronic system cannot compete in terms of transparency with tallymen.

And whats the bloody rush. The Dail does not meet for a week, or two.

Laois_Man

thebman wrote: »

you really should look up their e-voting systems they have trialled more.

Programmers have sworn under oath that they were told to put back doors in whether lying or not, it is always a possiblity and why e-voting can't work properly IMO.

You're saying nothing that has anything whatsoever to do with the 2000 contraversy in Florida.

Rabble Rabble

Laois_Man wrote: »

You're saying nothing that has anything whatsoever to do with the 2000 contraversy in Florida.

he is addressing the thread.

dermot_sheehan

The main problem with lack of electronic voting is it means there is a flaw in the Proportional Representation System in the distribution of surpluses.

Suppose a candidate receives 120% of the quota and is elected and his surpluses need to be distributed. How do you determine which of his vote would be regarded as surplus and then be distributed.

In the current system the random 20% over the quota is selected from the paper ballots being shuffled and those voters' second preferences are chosen. That is to a certain extent why the result always changes when there is a recount.

In an electronic system every voter's ballot's second preference can be transferred with a weighted vote. So in the above example every voters second preference would be transferred but only with 1/5th of a vote.

loobylou

Lapin wrote: »

What happens to all the ballot papers after the count ?

Are they stored away somewhere or destroyed ?

They're stored away for 6 months and then destroyed.

Laois_Man

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

he is addressing the thread.

He is quoting a specific post in the thread!

Lucifer_666

I agree with you Laoisman it is embarrassing and crazy that full results can't be achieved within the day.....why aren't these places who are now shutting shop and heading home like Laois-Offaly told to work on thru the night? It's the exact same mentality as the waiting till the next day to start the initial count instead of starting immediately after the boxes closed. Absolutely bizarre stuff

Perhaps those constituencies that are predicted to take a very long should be made to e vote

Laois_Man

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

There is no way to verify the software.

1) The guy writing the software could have added a bug, or been corrupt.
2) The verifiers could be corrupt.
3) Showing someone source code means nothing. It may not be on the actual machine.
4) When people talk about OCR and keeping the votes as verification then they admit that system is flawed.

the electronic system cannot compete in terms of transparency with tallymen.

And whats the bloody rush. The Dail does not meet for a week, or two.

jayziz if all those people can be bought off, it's handier to buy off the tallymen!

MonkeyDoo

I like the current system it's tried and tested and works leaving an accountable paper trail

As a software engineer I would not trust a computerised system of voting being introduced. It's just not as visible to the public, and so what if have to wait a few more hours to get results. There is alot of local people employed during the process and the money they are paid stays in the economy. Why have an international IT consultancy firm creaming profits that go abroad involved in our democratic process. I'd prefer giving the money to a local middle aged woman to count the ballots.

The paper ballot count leads to drama and interest in politics amoungst the population. With people being about to scrutinise the process as it happens.

InTheTrees

I agree with avoiding electronic voting as long as possible. Its fraught with problems and even if it was reliable, it lacks the transparency of the hand count.

But we also need to get the count done promptly so enough of these long breaks. Bring in another shift or something. Galway East closed down and went home at 11pm. Wtf???

PeterIanStaker

No its better than some electronic system. You can't hack into pencil & paper.

questionmark?

MonkeyDoo wrote: »

The paper ballot count leads to drama and interest in politics amoungst the population. With people being about to scrutinise the process as it happens.

Your dead right there!


OP stuff electronic voting this is the clearest way of voting. I love the way our votes are counted it does add to the drama and it helps to keep people interested in politics. In regards our PR system it is so much better than first past the post as is used in the UK as it gives a clearer picture of the views the electorate want represented in the Dail.

Donal Og O Baelach

Tradition is nice. But we will need to get electronic very soon.

doolox

Computers are not accessable by all the people.
Paper and pencil and hard copy documents are.

Until every person can program and access computer operating systems in a fluent manner and be able to monitor all those related process in an intelligent way there will be a lack of trust in electronic voting which will jeapordise the acceptance of e-voting.

If doubt creeps into a system the elected govt will not be accepted and it could lead to civil disturbance or worse.............

takun

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

Tradition is nice. But we will need to get electronic very soon.

Why though? The current method is not broken, so why should we fix it?

The hand count allows people with no technical skills or knowledge to follow and understand what is going on, at every step of the process It engages people, they trust it, it is open and transparent. Going electronic just cos it's modern and shiny is no reason, it would have to be as reliable, as accurate, just as transparent and just as trusted.

The first few may be possible if not easy, but getting the same level of trust would be a whole lot harder. If the ballot is not trusted it's a very bad thing for a democracy.

jimmycrackcorm

The ideal first move would be to an electronic counting system using the current paper votes where they are scanned and counted. That would also solve the anomaly where surplus votes are randomly distributed.

MonkeyDoo

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

Tradition is nice. But we will need to get electronic very soon.

Why? To impress people on SKY/CNN with 'modern' gadgetary?

I don't want to be pressing buttons that snot infected voters have touched!

What's there to stop people putting a big snot over a particular politicians button!

Or an email going around on election day saying supporters will put a poison like sarin on all the FF buttons.

Or the 18year old putting super glue on a button, with an old man left with a stuck finger with everyone there to see who he voted for..

Cop on man this is Ireland...were a bunch of messers!

Paper and pencil is most secure! Electronic is crap idea!

takun

I have to say MonkeyDoo those are all issues I'd not thought of - but .... yeah.

lauren12

Na, I think it's fine, it is embarrasing that we wasted that money on machines that didn't even work.

It is a pity though that Irish people abroad do not get their say, I'm sure they would like to, and I'm sure there could be some way in the future, as many I'm sure intend to return, so they will be effected by decisions made now.

All I can say is best of luck to the governement in now, and I don't mean that sarcastically. We really need them fighting fit, here's to the future...:)

Donal Og O Baelach

takun wrote: »

Why though? The current method is not broken, so why should we fix it?

The hand count allows people with no technical skills or knowledge to follow and understand what is going on, at every step of the process It engages people, they trust it, it is open and transparent. Going electronic just cos it's modern and shiny is no reason, it would have to be as reliable, as accurate, just as transparent and just as trusted.

The first few may be possible if not easy, but getting the same level of trust would be a whole lot harder. If the ballot is not trusted it's a very bad thing for a democracy.

Only beacuse it is a pre-requisite for a system where all legislative changes can be democratic and available to a refurendum of the people. as it is- we have a democratic vote once evry 5 yrs - then go back to sleep!! At the mo, reffurndums cost a fortune, I think we should prepare to learn to vote for evrything by the touch of a button.

dunworth1

InTheTrees wrote: »

I agree with avoiding electronic voting as long as possible. Its fraught with problems and even if it was reliable, it lacks the transparency of the hand count.

But we also need to get the count done promptly so enough of these long breaks. Bring in another shift or something. Galway East closed down and went home at 11pm. Wtf???

people are not robots they need rest