Ireland vs england

ManFromAtlantis · 03-03-2011 11:22pm

ah fair play ireland. must be a hell of alot of people like me that are on this cricket thread for the first time. very well done indeed.
i dont really know the rules but its always good to beat the games inventors.
just one question tho', why did'nt the english lad put a bit of effort into trying to stop the last '4' hitting the boundary, i thought he just gave up on it. strange givin' what was at stake at that time.

g5fd6ow0hseima · 03-03-2011 11:32pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Dockrell is Englands next great spinner.
Its sad but it will happen.

You reckon? Do you see it as inevitable that he will play for England? It kills me that we're gonna lose him.

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

just one question tho', why did'nt the english lad put a bit of effort into trying to stop the last '4' hitting the boundary, i thought he just gave up on it. strange givin' what was at stake at that time.

Yeah I kinda thought that myself, but Ireland needed 3 from 6 when that ball was bowled, and they managed to run 2 by the time it hit the ropes, so at that point they had reached a tied game with 1 needed from 5 so I dont think there's room for much of a conspiracy. Plus, he was probably the most despondent man on the planet at that moment

SeaFields · 03-03-2011 11:48pm

For ye Cricket heads that are still enjoying the moment check out the Ryanair website and an ad in the left-hand corner.

Well done Ireland.

(Apologies if this was posted already)

danieljm · 04-03-2011 11:46am

SeaFields wrote: »

For ye Cricket heads that are still enjoying the moment check out the Ryanair website and an ad in the left-hand corner.

Well done Ireland.

(Apologies if this was posted already)

That ad seems to be gone, what was it?

Marshy · 04-03-2011 1:38pm

No

d'Oracle wrote: »

Dockrell is Englands next great spinner.
Its sad but it will happen.

I think its far too early to say if he'll play for England. His performances in limited overs matches have been excellent so far for sure. It remains to be seen if he has the penetration to make it at test level though. As a spinner, particularly a slow left armer, there's plenty of competition in Eng. I'm not saying he won't make it, but he'll need to develop considerably.

If definitely would be frustrating if he ended up just playing one-day matches for England, as Ed Joyce did. Though most of us accept the reality of our best players aspiring to play test cricket, it undoubtedly affects our progression as a cricket force.

d'Oracle · 04-03-2011 4:13pm

Victoria Prickly Barmaid wrote: »

You reckon? Do you see it as inevitable that he will play for England? It kills me that we're gonna lose him.

Absolutely.
He is 18, he tied Bangladesh in ribbons the other day.
Like he went from his leaving cert to a county club.

All he has to do is learn and play. Ireland can't offer him test cricket.
In 3 1/2 to 4 years he will play for England.

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 4:47pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Absolutely.
He is 18, he tied Bangladesh in ribbons the other day.
Like he went from his leaving cert to a county club.

All he has to do is learn and play. Ireland can't offer him test cricket.
In 3 1/2 to 4 years he will play for England.

pretty sure it takes longer than 3 1/2 to 4 years to become an english national, i doubt they'd even consider him a perm resident within that time frame, im no expert on immigration though, i've lived in ireland 9 years and im still not eligable to play for the irish team

celtictiger32 · 04-03-2011 5:08pm

No

why the 3-4 year thing did joyce or morgan have to wait for a similar period aswell???

d'Oracle · 04-03-2011 5:11pm

imported_guy wrote: »

pretty sure it takes longer than 3 1/2 to 4 years to become an english national, i doubt they'd even consider him a perm resident within that time frame, im no expert on immigration though, i've lived in ireland 9 years and im still not eligable to play for the irish team

It takes 4 years of residence in England playing county cricket to qualify for the English cricket team.

This is what Morgan did and Joyce before him.
The 3 1/2 is to account for the few months he has already been over there if that counts.
Why would I make this up?

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:12pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

why the 3-4 year thing did joyce or morgan have to wait for a similar period aswell???

yeah you have to be a citizen or perm resident of a country to play for the national team (ICC rules)

Under normal circumstances it takes four years to qualify to play for a country; having played for England at the 2007 World Cup in April 2007, Joyce was set to miss playing for Ireland in the 2011 tournament, taking place in February.[15] In October it was announced that Joyce and former New Zealand international Hamish Marshall would tour India with Ireland; it was hoped that it would assist their integration into the team in the event the ICC allowed them to play for Ireland in ODIs.[16] In November 2010, the ICC announced that Joyce's qualification period would be shortened by the ICC and that he would be allowed to play for Ireland at the World Cup,[15] and he was subsequently selected in Ireland's 15-man squad for the tournament.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Joyce

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:14pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

It takes 4 years of residence in England playing county cricket to qualify for the English cricket team.

This is what Morgan did and Joyce before him.
The 3 1/2 is to account for the few months he has already been over there if that counts.
Why would I make this up?

actually thats not what i meant, you're assuming hes going to jump ship as soon as the world cup is over, thats not gonna happen, and im pretty sure to qualify you have to reside there without a long gap inbetween your residency, so no it'll be 4 yrs from when he QUITS ireland not starting tomorrow

and no playing county cricket doesnt have anything to do with it, there are plenty of players who play county cricket in england, and cant play for their national team, even though they have been playing for way longer than 4 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azhar_Mahmood azhar is only recently become eligable because he became an english citizen, but hes played county cricket since before some people in this thread were even born

, but obviously no one is going to select him for an english team anytime soon hes 36 and a pretty shiet player

celtictiger32 · 04-03-2011 5:16pm

No

oh right i didnt realise that, i also didnt realise either joyce or morgan had done this.. what about the return i.e joyce coming back, is there a similar rule for that??

and if that is the rule why would you 'imported guy' not be able to play for ireland

g5fd6ow0hseima · 04-03-2011 5:19pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

oh right i didnt realise that, i also didnt realise either joyce or morgan had done this.. what about the return i.e joyce coming back, is there a similar rule for that??

and if that is the rule why would you 'imported guy' not be able to play for ireland

They made a special consideration for Joyce, given that he is Irish and had played for us prior to jumping ship.

d'Oracle · 04-03-2011 5:20pm

imported_guy wrote: »

actually thats not what i meant, you're assuming hes going to jump ship as soon as the world cup is over, thats not gonna happen, and im pretty sure to qualify you have to reside there without a long gap inbetween your residency, so no it'll be 4 yrs from when he QUITS ireland not starting tomorrow

This is not the case.
Ed Joyce played for Ireland in the 2007 WC qualifiers before playing for England in the 2007 WC. Morgan played for us in that tournament and came and played in the world T20 for England in 2009.

This is allowed to give the opportunity to play Test cricket to the top Associate players.

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:21pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

oh right i didnt realise that, i also didnt realise either joyce or morgan had done this.. what about the return i.e joyce coming back, is there a similar rule for that??

and if that is the rule why would you 'imported guy' not be able to play for ireland

im not a perm resident, and not an EU citizen either, so im probably an exception, i cant play until i become a citizen or a perm resident (cant become a perm resident since im over 18 and on a student visa, but im eligable for citizenship and have applied :P, but im shiet at playing so you wont be seeing me play anyway though :P)

celtictiger32 · 04-03-2011 5:22pm

No

Victoria Prickly Barmaid wrote: »

They made a special consideration for Joyce, given that he is Irish and had played for us prior to jumping ship.

i see so we have our current crop for 3-4 years at least anyway ye?

celtictiger32 · 04-03-2011 5:23pm

No

imported_guy wrote: »

im not a perm resident, and not an EU citizen either, so im probably an exception, i cant play until i become a citizen or a perm resident (cant become a perm resident since im over 18 and on a student visa, but im eligable for citizenship and have applied :P, but im shiet at playing so you wont be seeing me play anyway though :P)

ah ffs you were building my hopes up there;)

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:23pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

This is not the case.
Ed Joyce played for Ireland in the 2007 WC qualifiers before playing for England in the 2007 WC. Morgan played for us in that tournament and came and played in the world T20 for England in 2009.

This is allowed to give the opportunity to play Test cricket to the top Associate players.

he probably got around the rule some how, because im pretty sure you have to be a perm resident of a country to play for them, i'll try to find a crediable source for this.

d'Oracle · 04-03-2011 5:27pm

imported_guy wrote: »

he probably got around the rule some how, because im pretty sure you have to be a perm resident of a country to play for them, i'll try to find a crediable source for this.

4 year residency is the rule.

We have been through this in the thread which is about this exact subject.
The county cricket thing may be wrong, but I suppose it should be said that WTF would a professional player who wants to play cricket for England be doing in England if he wasn't playing county cricket?

d'Oracle · 04-03-2011 5:30pm

http://static.icc-cricket.yahoo.net/ugc/documents/DOC_37CE1CD9A2F8BC0C0053716144283ACA_1257677746881_78.pdf

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:30pm

imported_guy wrote: »

he probably got around the rule some how, because im pretty sure you have to be a perm resident of a country to play for them, i'll try to find a crediable source for this.

here are my sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residency

http://static.icc-cricket.yahoo.net/ugc/documents/DOC_5F00BDA78B77363CAE461644EC9C1688_1281866239978_416.pdf

A. CORE QUALIFICATION CRITERIA:
A Player shall be qualified to play for a National Cricket Federation where he/she satisfies at least one of the following requirements:
1. the Player was born in the relevant country;
2. the Player is able to demonstrate (by his/her possession of a valid passport issued by the relevant country) that he/she is a national of the relevant country; or
3. the Player is a Resident of the relevant country, in other words:
3.1 the Player has resided in the relevant country for a minimum of 183 days in each of the immediately preceding two years (female Players only);
3.2 the Player has resided in the relevant country for a minimum of 183 days in each of the immediately preceding four years (male Players only); or
3.3 the Player has resided in the relevant country for a minimum of 183 days in each of the immediately preceding seven years (male Players only).

hope that clears it up, ed probably got around that rule some how

darjeeling · 04-03-2011 5:32pm

imported_guy wrote: »

actually thats not what i meant, you're assuming hes going to jump ship as soon as the world cup is over, thats not gonna happen, and im pretty sure to qualify you have to reside there without a long gap inbetween your residency, so no it'll be 4 yrs from when he QUITS ireland not starting tomorrow

and no playing county cricket doesnt have anything to do with it, there are plenty of players who play county cricket in england, and cant play for their national team, even though they have been playing for way longer than 4 years.

Rules are different when going from an associate team to a full ICC member team. You can still play for an associate team whilst serving the period of residency qualification for a full member team. Two recent examples are Ed Joyce (mentioned above), who helped Ireland qualify for the 2007 World Cup and then played for England during the tournament itself, and Dirk Nannes, who went from playing for the Netherlands to playing for Australia very shortly after.

Coming back from playing for a full member team to playng for an associate team, however, normally takes four years (discretionarily reduced to allow Joyce to return for Ireland at this WC). The difference in rules was actually established to ensure that associate member teams wouldn't lose their star players for the whole time they were waiting to qualify for full member teams.

Rules can be read here.

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:32pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

4 year residency is the rule.

We have been through this in the thread which is about this exact subject.
The county cricket thing may be wrong, but I suppose it should be said that WTF would a professional player who wants to play cricket for England be doing in England if he wasn't playing county cricket?

there are plenty of people who dont want to play for england but still play english county cricket and are english perm residents/nationals I.E azhar mahmood, hes been playing for pakistan until the last world cup, hes been an english perm resident for quite some time and is an english national too, but he was born in pakistan so he is automatically eligable to play for pakistan. pretty sure this is how ed got around playing for ireland again.

Mongarra · 04-03-2011 5:33pm

As far as I know Ed Joyce played for Middlesex from 1999 to 2009 and then moved to Sussex, where he is still contracted.

He had therefore, fulfilled the residence requirement to qualify for England.

He should have had to wait 4 years after his last international game for England before he re-qualified for Ireland but the ICC (Clive Lloyd, I think, actually had the final decision) allowed a shorter time because Ireland claimed the World Cup was earlier in the year than previous tournaments and in the normal run of events the 4 years would have elapsed by the time the World Cup came around.

Glad to have him back but I think we will be waiting for a while for Eoin Morgan to re-qualify.

d'Oracle · 04-03-2011 5:34pm

I have no idea what you are arguing.

He lived and played cricket in England for 6 years before he was selected by England.

d'Oracle · 04-03-2011 5:35pm

imported_guy wrote: »

there are plenty of people who dont want to play for england but still play english county cricket and are english perm residents/nationals I.E azhar mahmood, hes been playing for pakistan until the last world cup, hes been an english perm resident for quite some time and is an english national too, but he was born in pakistan so he is automatically eligable to play for pakistan. pretty sure this is how ed got around playing for ireland again.

Again, I have no clue what you are arguing?
How bout you tell me what it is you think I am saying that is wrong.

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:36pm

darjeeling wrote: »

Rules are different when going from an associate team to a full ICC member team.

no one is arguing that since you are eligable to play for one team since you're born there, since you can be eligable for residency even if you stay in another country/play outside the 183 day limit

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:40pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Again, I have no clue what you are arguing?
How bout you tell me what it is you think I am saying that is wrong.

here it is

d'Oracle wrote: »

4 year residency is the rule.

We have been through this in the thread which is about this exact subject.
The county cricket thing may be wrong, but I suppose it should be said that WTF would a professional player who wants to play cricket for England be doing in England if he wasn't playing county cricket?

pretty sure you asked why would someone want to live in england and play county cricket if they didnt want to play for the national team... otherwise your question made no sense (maybe you tried to ask what was ED doing in england if he wasnt playing county cricket?, maybe he was just trying to get the 183 days requirement?)

and i replied

imported_guy wrote: »

there are plenty of people who dont want to play for england but still play english county cricket and are english perm residents/nationals I.E azhar mahmood, hes been playing for pakistan until the last world cup, hes been an english perm resident for quite some time and is an english national too, but he was born in pakistan so he is automatically eligable to play for pakistan. pretty sure this is how ed got around playing for ireland again.

darjeeling · 04-03-2011 5:42pm

imported_guy wrote: »

no one is arguing that since you are eligable to play for one team since you're born there, since you can be eligable for residency even if you stay in another country/play outside the 183 day limit

Well, given that many in the Irish team are playing county cricket in England and building towards residency, the relevant ICC rules are the ones relating to switching between international teams, as I was pointing out. And these are:

ICC wrote:

To be eligible to represent an ICC Member at Under 19 level or above, a player must be [national / born there or...]

A4. Resident in the country for at least 183 days in each of the immediately
preceding four years (some restrictions for Associates and Affiliates detailed
below).

[with restrictions...]

B1. The player must not have represented another ICC Member at Under 19 level
or above - in an ICC sanctioned match (e.g. in a Test match, ODI, ICC Global
or Regional event) - in the immediately preceding four years (at under 19 level
or above).

C1. The restriction at B1 does not apply for a player progressing from representing
an Associate or Affiliate Member to representing a Full Member

imported_guy · 04-03-2011 5:43pm

Mongarra wrote: »

As far as I know Ed Joyce played for Middlesex from 1999 to 2009 and then moved to Sussex, where he is still contracted.

He had therefore, fulfilled the residence requirement to qualify for England.

He should have had to wait 4 years after his last international game for England before he re-qualified for Ireland but the ICC (Clive Lloyd, I think, actually had the final decision) allowed a shorter time because Ireland claimed the World Cup was earlier in the year than previous tournaments and in the normal run of events the 4 years would have elapsed by the time the World Cup came around.

Glad to have him back but I think we will be waiting for a while for Eoin Morgan to re-qualify.

pretty sure doesnt matter if ed was playing for england, i dont know why there was any drama with the ICC "letting him play" he was born in ireland so he can play for ireland anytime he wants (ICC's rule number one), unless he gives up his irish citizenship

Ireland vs england

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