What Speed Limit when M1 merges with A1??

Ernest

If you drive on the M1 north of Dundalk, at some point you cross the border into Northern Ireland. Before that point (presumably) you see a sign repeating the 120kph speed limit. At a further point, another sign says that the speed limit is in mph but it does NOT say What That Speed Limit Actually Is! You are nearly at Banbridge before any speed limit sign appears - one for 60 mph. All of this is very confusing. An Irish driver going north and following speed limit signs might conclude that the speed limit is 120 kph, then 75 mph, until Banbridge when it goes down to 60 mhp. Is this a deliberate trap to catch southern drivers breaking an unstated speed limit in Northern Ireland?
This, of course is all part of the national denial that there is a territorial border between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom because that would be admitting that Northern Ireland is not part of the State down here. Driving south, the existence of the land border is kind of admitted by a sign mentioning County Louth but no equivalent sign driving north. This is because in Northern Ireland they have replaced the counties with districts. So perhaps they feel they cannot mention County Down. I recall that, in the past, there used to be a sign noting some local government identity such as "District of Newry and Mourne" or something like that. That used to be their code for saying " you are now in the UK" but that sign is no longer to be seen
All very confusing for residents of the island, not to mention unfortunate tourists from elsewhere.

corktina

in the Uk in the absense of signs "the National Speed limit applies"...that is 60mph on ordinary roads and 70 on dual carriageways and motorways.

**Timbuk2**

The M1 becomes the N1 after the Dundalk North Exit (Exit 18) and continues as the N1 until the border - however it's a HQDC and the limit is 120km/h.

Once you reach the border near Carrickcarnan (you'll know you're there as the hard shoulder changes from dashed yellow to solid white, and a sign will say speed limit in miles an hour) you will see a National Speed Limit sign - a white sign with a black diagonal cross. This means 70mph on dual carraigeways (which must be physically separated by a central reservation), and 60mph on single carraigeway roads (including ones with multiple lanes if it isn't separated by a central reservation).

70mph translates roughly as 112km/h (if I remember correctly). I drove up to Belfast a few weeks ago and had the Satnav with me, and it displays the speed limit of the road. When I was in National Speed Limit sections, it said 113km/h. When I was in 60mph sections, it said 97km/h.

Being honest, there's parts of the A1 that I wouldn't necessarily say that 70mph is a safe speed (crossroads, cars turning right, central medians where cars are waiting to turn onto the road you are travelling on).

ardmacha

Leaving aside political signs, there is nothing stopping them erecting a sign with "70" written on it. The useless minister in the North could also easily require signs (or some of them at least) to have MPH on the sign itself.

So perhaps they feel they cannot mention County Down

You're right there. I expect a County Down sign would have a short life, this location being in County Armagh!

etchyed

Maybe if you intend to drive in the UK you should learn the rules of the road there.

MoeJay

How easy people forget, it was only a few short years ago when the "national speed limit applies" sign was the same north and south!

Do you know the difference between "Give Way" and "Yield"??

Anyway, just so we can all learn....The Highway Code online

Ernest

Corktina, Etchyed, Moejay:

You kind of miss the point, which is that there are no road signs about the speed limit in operation when driving north into County Armagh ( sorry not Co.Down as I had assumed from Newry being in that county). Smart alec comments about the Rules of the Road or the Highway Code or general principles are not the helpful here - drivers should reasonably expect to have road signs to guide them on the regulations on speed limits when they move from one jurisdiction to another on the same road!

GTE

Ernest wrote: »

Corktina, Etchyed, Moejay:

You kind of miss the point, which is that there are no road signs about the speed limit in operation when driving north into County Armagh ( sorry not Co.Down as I had assumed from Newry being in that county). Smart alec comments about the Rules of the Road or the Highway Code or general principles are not the helpful here - drivers should reasonably expect to have road signs to guide them on the regulations on speed limits when they move from one jurisdiction to another on the same road!

I couldn't conclude if you knew the actual speed limits of the UK so in the time it took to create the thread you could have found this on Google.
So in case you didn't know now you know what the sign means.

To the rest of your comments I find them very far fetched. I don't think it is a trap. I have not seen a police presence on that stretch of road in the past 6 months that I have driven it every week.
This changes when you hit the old 70mph sections and the 60mph sections as the road can hardly take that. They are dangerous sections.

I do not understand why you dont agree with if you want to drive in a different country you should familiarise yourself with at least some basic knowledge of the rules of the road. It is very clear that you are given information of the speed limit when your cross into the different jurisdiction. There is a set of speed limit signs on that road.

I agree with you and anyone in that having a 70 mph sign would be handy but if the reason for this is because drivers are not bothered to read up on at least the basic rules then I think its bad reflection of the driving public in Ireland.

What worries me more is that a few of the people who I know who drive in the North don't quite know the speed limit themselves.

etchyed

Ernest wrote: »

Corktina, Etchyed, Moejay:

You kind of miss the point,

I think I fully understood the point.

which is that there are no road signs about the speed limit in operation when driving north into County Armagh

Yes there are, there are National Speed Limit signs. If you knew the rules of the road in the UK, which you are obliged to do before driving there, you'd know what they mean.

Smart alec comments about the Rules of the Road or the Highway Code or general principles are not the helpful here

My comment was intended to be neither smart alecky or helpful, I was merely pointing out the truth. Being allowed to drive in another jurisdiction is not a right, it's a privilege. Before doing so you should find out the rules of the road there, and the fact you don't know what an NSL sign means betrays that you haven't bothered to do that.

drivers should reasonably expect to have road signs to guide them on the regulations on speed limits when they move from one jurisdiction to another on the same road!

Nope, they shouldn't expect that at all. The obligation is on them to know the regulations before they get there.

Such signs may of course not be a bad idea, but they're certainly not an obligation for the road authorities in Northern Ireland.

A1 Dan

I have attached a photo of the offending sign.
Border Speed Sign.jpg

It really looks a bit stupid to have a sign that states "Speed limits in miles per hour" and not to show the actual speed ... yes I know about the...
"National Speed Limit
When you enter an area that is signed by a diagonal black stripe on a white background, you are driving under national speed limit restrictions. For most vehicles this will means 60mph on single carriageway roads and 70mph on dual carriageway roads. It is also 70mph on the motorway network unless otherwise indicated."
But this would make a lot more sense...Border Speed Sign 2.jpg
and its really not safe to google while you are driving at 120kph or 70mph or 113kph or whatever!!!!!

A1 Dan

etchyed

A1 Dan wrote: »

But this would make a lot more sense...

I'm sorry, but that wouldn't make a lot more sense at all, as it would then be different from all the other speed limit signs in Northern Ireland. In fact, I'm pretty sure (but open to correction) that the sign you propose is illegal in the UK and would make the speed limit unenforceable.

Although I maintain it's the driver's responsibility to know the rules of the jurisdiction they're entering, if an explanatory sign was to be erected, something akin to this would be the best option.

But once again, I just have to point out that this whole thread is predicated on the notion that the roads authorities in NI are somehow thick and haven't noticed this glaring omission on the main cross-border route on the island. That's just not true. The speed limit is signed according to UK rules. Jokes about Googling at 70mph are all well and good but it doesn't change the fact that if you want to drive abroad, you need to learn the rules in advance.

MoeJay

etchyed:

You are 100% correct. It is every driver's responsibility to educate themselves as to the rules of the road for any journey they will undertake.

If you are aware that you are crossing into another jurisdiction, it is YOUR responsibility to know the rules under which you are driving. I'd be pretty sure that a motor insurance policy states something pretty similar!

Ignorance will not be much use in the case of an accident.

That's not being smart-alecky. It's being a responsible road user.

GTE

A1 Dans solution is not a good one as it would mean a UK wide change of the signs which we can not demand. It is daft, but etchyed does make more sense as a one time sign upon crossing the border which would accompany the standard sign.

However, I don't believe that any money should be spent on lazy drivers not bothering their arse to learn about the roads they are going to be driving on, which to me is like ethchyeds solution, but as a reference for drivers who I accept could forget the numbers involved (like for what 70 mph is in kph) a sign accompanying the UK national speed limit sign saying what 70 is in kph and a similar sign for cars from the North would be handy.

It would be handy as some cars down here only read in KPH now, possibly some in the UK only read in MPH. It would be handy as drivers could forget the exact numbers involved. For all the handiness I would not support it as a solution to lazy drivers. Sadly for my point of view though, if the sign did go up it would be less of a reason to read up on the rules of the road of the country you are entering.

Thinking more about it though, drivers make a choice to drive in a different country whether it is for work or leisure. There are many more roads then just motorways. It is their responsibility to learn about the rules of those roads.

I do like hearing about people getting stopped and having the book lomped at them for being asses on the A1. Speeding on the A1 is not acceptable to me. It just cant take it when you come off the newer section. For the southern drivers who get stopped saying they didn't know what the sign meant is a primary school child answer.

ardmacha

A1 Dans solution is not a good one as it would mean a UK wide change of the signs

Not so. NI has autonomy and can changes signs, at least to some extent. In Scotland "70" signs are used on motorways, so using them in NI would be perfectly logical as it would be most similar to practice in both of its nearest neighbours.

Signs should not be made obscure to encourage people to read the rules of the road, they should be as informative as possible.

catchup

Driving on the continent you will find that every time you cross a border, say from France into Belgium, there is a set of road signs which remind you of the change of max speeds. Its very clear and easy to follow. I have found this is standard practice at any internal EU border. It should be introduced here as well.

corktina

Ernest wrote: »

Corktina, Etchyed, Moejay:

You kind of miss the point, which is that there are no road signs about the speed limit in operation when driving north into County Armagh ( sorry not Co.Down as I had assumed from Newry being in that county). Smart alec comments about the Rules of the Road or the Highway Code or general principles are not the helpful here - drivers should reasonably expect to have road signs to guide them on the regulations on speed limits when they move from one jurisdiction to another on the same road!

you cant expect6 an other country to change the way they do things just for lazy driverswho dont look up the rules of the road . That sign means" National Speed Limit apllies". If tis a Dual carriageway, thats 70mph...if its not, then its 60 mph. It also meant the same thing here up to a few years ago!

corktina

ardmacha wrote: »

Not so. NI has autonomy and can changes signs, at least to some extent. In Scotland "70" signs are used on motorways, so using them in NI would be perfectly logical as it would be most similar to practice in both of its nearest neighbours.

Signs should not be made obscure to encourage people to read the rules of the road, they should be as informative as possible.

Use of a 70 sign in this instance doesnt alter the fact that the "National Speed Limit "signs on ordinary roads do away with the necessity of having a new sign at the start and end of every dual carriageway section....saves a fortune, am idea we would have done well to follow given the plethera of signs necessary here everytime an N road meets another road.

emptyshed

And dont forget your learners permit aint legal cross border...does what it say on the tin!!

A1 Dan

bbk wrote: »

A1 Dans solution is not a good one as it would mean a UK wide change of the signs which we can not demand. It is daft, but etchyed does make more sense as a one time sign upon crossing the border which would accompany the standard sign..

I never suggested that all UK signs should be changed, just the one at the border. This is the only land border that the U.K. has. At two other major border crossing points the signs show the speed limit in a logical way as M.P.H.

Attachment not found. Donegal to Derry.

Attachment not found. Monaghan to Tyrone.

The same logic should apply to the N1 to A1 crossing. Its not a big deal.

icdg

corktina wrote: »

you cant expect6 an other country to change the way they do things just for lazy driverswho dont look up the rules of the road . That sign means" National Speed Limit apllies". If tis a Dual carriageway, thats 70mph...if its not, then its 60 mph. It also meant the same thing here up to a few years ago!

It was slightly different here, which makes explictly signing 70 at the border even more important. In Northern Ireland and England and Wales, it means 70mph on a motorway or dual carraigeway and 60mph on a regular highway. In the Republic of Ireland, it meant 60mph - in any circumstances. The 70mph on motorways was a special speed limit zone and had to be explicitly signed (as is the case in Scotland).

Not that obeying the old ROI rule would get anyone in trouble with the PSNI, of course.

NI has full autonomy as far as road signs is concerned. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions don't actually apply to NI, it has its own Regulations. The (UK) TSM does, because the law is so similar, but it's legal basis is completely different in NI - which is why you'll see a "Northern Ireland variations" appendix at the end of some chapters of the UK TSM. An example of a difference between NI and GB is the railway station sign. In GB, this is of course the famous British Rail logo, but in Northern Ireland, a generic railway symbol is used instead. So NI could legislate for this situation - if they wanted to.

ardmacha

saves a fortune, am idea we would have done well to follow given the plethera of signs necessary here everytime an N road meets another road.

The issue in the Republic is that single carriageway roads have 2 potential speed limits depending on what they are. This is not the case in NI, so less need for a lot of signs.

corktina

in other words its a badly thought out expensvie way to do it.

corktina

icdg wrote: »

It was slightly different here, which makes explictly signing 70 at the border even more important. In Northern Ireland and England and Wales, it means 70mph on a motorway or dual carraigeway and 60mph on a regular highway. In the Republic of Ireland, it meant 60mph - in any circumstances. The 70mph on motorways was a special speed limit zone and had to be explicitly signed (as is the case in Scotland).

Not that obeying the old ROI rule would get anyone in trouble with the PSNI, of course.

NI has full autonomy as far as road signs is concerned. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions don't actually apply to NI, it has its own Regulations. The (UK) TSM does, because the law is so similar, but it's legal basis is completely different in NI - which is why you'll see a "Northern Ireland variations" appendix at the end of some chapters of the UK TSM. An example of a difference between NI and GB is the railway station sign. In GB, this is of course the famous British Rail logo, but in Northern Ireland, a generic railway symbol is used instead. So NI could legislate for this situation - if they wanted to.

i dont agree. The meaning of the sign is quite clear so long as you know what the rules are (and I dont see why that should be any different south of the border)If they had a 70 at the border, they would also then need a 60 at every possible end of the dual section. Much cheaper to have the current sign

etchyed

corktina wrote: »

If they had a 70 at the border, they would also then need a 60 at every possible end of the dual section.

Exactly.

The NI system works differently from ours by not explicitly signing every single change of limit, but rather by expecting drivers to know what the limit is based on the type of road on which they are driving and, indeed, what type of vehicle they are driving. Putting a '70' sign at the border undermines that whole system and would necessitate signing the speed limit explicitly as '60' or '70' at every turn off and exit from the A1.

What Scotland does is completely irrelevant. Currently NI signs speed limits the same as England and Wales, and changing that purely for the benefit of cross-border drivers would make no sense. Why should NI change a functioning system well understood by its own residents? The onus is not on Northern Ireland to change its laws to suit drivers from another jurisdiction, but rather for those drivers to learn the rules of the jurisdiction in which they are driving.

I and others on this thread have already pointed out how this is handled at mainland European border crossings. An explanatory sign, along the lines of this, placed after the NSL sign would be sufficient to explain the system to drivers. This suggestion seems to be being ignored by those who would quite happily plonk a non-standard, potentially misleading '70' sign at the border and be done with it.

Jayuu

Initially I was in favour of those saying the signage wasn't necessary but if one looks at the border crossings into Derry, the signs of the major routes there clearly indicate that not only are you changing from km/h to mph but also what actual speed limit applies.

Border crossing - R239/A2 and Border crossing - N13/A2

At these crossings the UK National Speed limit of 60mph for a single carriageway road applies so they didn't have to put the figure on the sign yet they did. It has the effect of making it very clear as to what speed is applicable.

Somebody upthread said it would be illegal or a change in the rules to have a sign with 70mph on it in the UK. This is not the case according to the website of Association of British Drivers. See this link here which clearly states that signs can have speeds from 20 to 70.

So if there is no restriction of having a 70mph sign, and given that there is a change in the maximum speed allowed between the two jurisdictions on this stretch of road, I think it would be clearer if the sign on entry to the A1 had 70mph clearly marked. Have to say though that I have driven this road many times and I've never seen a police patrol on it checking for speeds so I don't think the OP's accusation of it being deliberately done to trap people speeding holds up.

corktina

ah but they are single carrigeways so there isnt the problem of having to put a 60 on every off slip....

Jayuu

corktina wrote: »

ah but they are single carrigeways so there isnt the problem of having to put a 60 on every off slip....

Actually there would only be on place where they would have to put a 70 speed which is exactly where the existing sign is at the border crossing. That's the only place where the dual-carriageway crosses the border.

At the junction into Jonesborough there technically should be 60mph signs because you stray into the Northern Ireland for a couple of yards before coming back into the Republic. Instead they use the same "end of speed limit restriction" signage.

However there actually doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency in the signage on crossing the border because if you look at the signage here which is on the old Newry road just a mile to the east of the main road there is a 60mph sign.

ardmacha

At the junction into Jonesborough there technically should be 60mph signs because you stray into the Northern Ireland for a couple of yards before coming back into the Republic. Instead they use the same "end of speed limit restriction" signage.

If I am not mistaken there is a "40" or suchlike there nowadays.

Catch yourself on

Everything is slower in the North, time speed life.................................

ardmacha

Everything is slower in the North, time speed life.................................

Economic decline...........................

lucernarian

There's two points I'd like to make:

Firstly, we used a national speed limit sign in the 26 counties for many years and this exclusively indicated 60 mph on all roads except Motorways. Motorways in this country also had separate "70" signs to indicate the speed limit. It may not be apparent to people that the sign on the A1 actually indicated a maximum safe driving speed of 70MPH despite the fact it was not a motorway. I do accept it's up to drivers to find this 70MPH speed limit beforehand.

The other point is that this confusion will primarily affect drivers in the Republic. Is it at all justified to introduce a new type of sign in the national rules, which would be placed just before reaching the border to remind drivers of what the "National Speed Limit" is on DCs in the UK?

Leonard Hofstadter

Would it really be too much to ask for signage just as you cross the border that explains to you that the NSL is 70 mph on motorways and dual carriageways in NI?

I do remember when we had NSL signs here, but as noted previously, it was always 60 mph.

If I hadn't gone on this forum and asked how to get to Portrush from Dublin, I would have assumed the speed limit was 60 mph on DCs and 70 mph on motorways!

To be honest, it is completely illogical that a different system of measurement is used for speed limits on both sides of the border.

We should never have switched from mph to kph until NI and the rest of the UK was ready to do so.

nordydan

captainspeed wrote: »

To be honest, it is completely illogical that a different system of measurement is used for speed limits on both sides of the border.

We should never have switched from mph to kph until NI and the rest of the UK was ready to do so.

Disagree, we have nearly completed the move away from the imperial system entriely. The ROI cannot wait around for the UK to join the modern world

NFD100

nordydan wrote: »

Disagree, we have nearly completed the move away from the imperial system entriely. The ROI cannot wait around for the UK to join the modern world

Completely agree. Metric system makes far more sense. Britain light years behind even Canada, Australia, NZ and South Africa. A 70 sign at the border makes sense with mph under it.

Leonard Hofstadter

NFD100 wrote: »

Completely agree. Metric system makes far more sense. Britain light years behind even Canada, Australia, NZ and South Africa. A 70 sign at the border makes sense with mph under it.

We do most of our trade with the UK/NI and the US, which still use imperial, therefore it makes sense for us to be au fait with the systems used in these countries. After all, it is only in the past few years that we changed from mph.

The fact that they are backward by still using imperial is in a way besides the point, we're a small little country and are not in a position to dictate to them what should or should not be used (and yes they are behind the times, especially the US which still uses Fahrenheit for temperature ffs!).

Only a few years ago when the Irish went to Europe we were trying to figure out what kms were and what the speed limits were in terms of mph, whereas now everytime we cross the border we have to convert from miles and mph back to kms and kph (I know I had to do the mental calculation to try and figure out what 60 and 70 mph were in kph).

Hopefully NI at least will see the light and change to kph. Not sure how practical that would be with the rest of the UK sticking with miles but hopefully it would persuade the rest of Britain to fall into line with us and everyone else in the world.

Britain is having a speed limit review (motorways up to 80 mph apparently) soon, and that would be a perfect time for them to come into the 21st century and break with the past by switching to kph!

nordydan

captainspeed wrote: »

We do most of our trade with the UK/NI and the US, which still use imperial, therefore it makes sense for us to be au fait with the systems used in these countries. After all, it is only in the past few years that we changed from mph.

The fact that they are backward by still using imperial is in a way besides the point, we're a small little country and are not in a position to dictate to them what should or should not be used (and yes they are behind the times, especially the US which still uses Fahrenheit for temperature ffs!).

Only a few years ago when the Irish went to Europe we were trying to figure out what kms were and what the speed limits were in terms of mph, whereas now everytime we cross the border we have to convert from miles and mph back to kms and kph (I know I had to do the mental calculation to try and figure out what 60 and 70 mph were in kph).

Hopefully NI at least will see the light and change to kph. Not sure how practical that would be with the rest of the UK sticking with miles but hopefully it would persuade the rest of Britain to fall into line with us and everyone else in the world.

Britain is having a speed limit review (motorways up to 80 mph apparently) soon, and that would be a perfect time for them to come into the 21st century and break with the past by switching to kph!

Is it that difficult to multiply by 1.6?