Why don't we have a decent alternative in Ireland?

markesmith

Tomorrow, we go to the ballot. The two main parties in Ireland are centre-right/right-wing, Christian Democrat parties in favour of lower taxes, free market control, etc etc.

In America, you have the Democrats. In Britain, the Labour Party. But voting Fine Gael tomorrow almost seems like "the best of two bad lots".

It seems as if the entire Fianna Fail and Fine Gael party would need to be caught in a mass orgy with young boys before any other party would have a chance of getting in.

Why is there no real alternative for voters in Ireland? Why haven't Labour/Sinn Fein/another party risen up a bit from this whole travesty and really made a go for it?

pragmatic1

The left is too fragmented and labour are too small.

silverspoon

Eh...if you're comparing Fine Gael, policy-wise, to any British or American equivalents, it's the Republicans or Tories, not Labour or Democrats.

Senna

We are a right wing country with right wing believes.

Dangerous Man

There are alternatives - you just mentioned a couple. Irish people don't want alternatives though - they want FF / FG rats.

challengemaster

Dangerous Man wrote: »

There are alternatives - you just mentioned a couple. Irish people don't want alternatives though - they want FF / FG rats.

There's alternatives, just not viable/decent ones.

whiteboy

don't vote, don't give a f*ck, problem solved

Daegerty

markesmith wrote: »

Why is there no real alternative for voters in Ireland? Why haven't Labour/Sinn Fein/another party risen up a bit from this whole travesty and really made a go for it?

If labour and the shinners are so great then go away and vote for them. Or do you require that they gain a certain number of seats before you vote for them?

jimmycrackcorm

Because Richard Boyd-Barret is our alternative and we wouldn't even choose to send him to the eurovision....

marienbad

You speak as though the electorate had nothing to do with it. There are alternatives and there always have been alternatives.

There are a slew of choices from left of centre to extreme left candidates in this election, and this is an election that should be a shoo-in for the left. Yet they will struggle to get above 30/35 % first preference votes.

And why ? Because are a right of centre electorate and the outcome has always reflected that. We are who we vote, it dos'nt happen in a vacuum.

Dead Kennedys

OP, if you're looking for an alternative obviously don't vote FG, are there Independents in your area? If you're sick of the status quo vote left!

Dudess

Senna wrote: »

We are a right wing country with right wing believes.

Hardly...

ectoraige

The liberal left have a strong sense of how things should be, but as a part of this, also feel they shouldn't be allowed tell others what to do; the right have no such qualms. As a result, the left tend to stick to ideals, while the right focus on power.

The party machines of FF and FG outclass the disparate groupings on the left. They can compromise on their beliefs as they see it as what you have to do to get into positions of power.

Meanwhile, Labour and the rest of the left get caught up by their ideals, leading to factioning. They are beset with problems surrounding candidate selection and vote management. In Sligo/North Leitrim, there is one Labour candidate and four ex-labour candidates.

Sisko

Still too many right wing fundamentalist religious bogger/granny voters out there hence FG having strong support.

That and still not enough young people voting.

shannon_tek

cause if they did Ireland would complain.

challengemaster

Sisko wrote: »

That and still not enough young people voting.

What makes you think young people would vote for the likes of SF/labour/etc anyway?

meglome

Sisko wrote: »

Still too many right wing fundamentalist religious bogger/granny voters out there hence FG having strong support.

That and still not enough young people voting.

What the fluppin hell are you on about? I think you're confusing FG with FF, just remember which one wrecked the country, it should help you. It's a sad reflection on the opposition that FG have by far the best plan to get us out of the mess.

The alternative parties in this country are not great, and by not great I'm being nice. You have Labour who won't tackle the vested interests and the rest are mostly a bunch of anti-capitalist bullshít artists.

It's pretty annoying... I'd say you could change the party names on ballot papers all around the country and people would hardly know the difference.

Nothingbetter2d

Dustin the turkey would probably be as good a leader as what is on offer lol dustin for Taoiseach!!!!!!

Pauleta

We got into this mess when the "centre-right" Fianna Fail dabbled in left wing policies like nationalizing the banks and the free money for all welfare system. Ireland dabbled slightly in left wing politics and we are crippled. We would be a 3rd world country if any of the far-left cockroaches were in charge. We must remain a centre-right country that opposes the far-left.

checkyabadself

D

silverspoon wrote: »

Eh...if you're comparing Fine Gael, policy-wise, to any British or American equivalents, it's the Republicans or Tories, not Labour or Democrats.

I think the OP meant that in America, the ALTERNATIVE to the right wing conservative party is the Democratic party and in the UK the Labour party is the left option to the Tories right.
I think they also meant that they have a clear,equally sized left/right divide, whereas in Ireland the two biggest parties are two sides of the same coin and the left is too fragmented and crippled by extremism to be considered a viable alternative.

I think that Ireland is a predominantly conservative right wing country. Only the current generation of young people look like they have no interest in keeping the churches principles and patronage of our schools alive.

Also, what with Homosexuality being illegal up until,1993, divorce until 1995, and abortion still illegal, Ireland is very young in terms of commonly adopted first world social principles.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pauleta wrote: »

We got into this mess when the "centre-right" Fianna Fail dabbled in left wing policies like nationalizing the banks and the free money for all welfare system. Ireland dabbled slightly in left wing politics and we are crippled. We would be a 3rd world country if any of the far-left cockroaches were in charge. We must remain a centre-right country that opposes the far-left.

Eh... hang on.... Nationalising the banks was a result of lax regualtion of said banks and the property bubble, where people were encouraged to spend spend spend! ridiculous amounts of money they never had. These are right/centre right ideals. Also, FF have been cutting taxes and doing feck all to improve public services (public trasnport, HSE, etc) for years before the crash.

checkyabadself wrote: »

D

I think the OP meant that in America, the ALTERNATIVE to the right wing conservative party is the Democratic party and in the UK the Labour party is the left option to the Tories right.
I think they also meant that they have a clear,equally sized left/right divide, whereas in Ireland the two biggest parties are two sides of the same coin and the left is too fragmented and crippled by extremism to be considered a viable alternative.

I think that Ireland is a predominantly conservative right wing country. Only the current generation of young people look like they have no interest in keeping the churches principles and patronage of our schools alive.

Also, what with Homosexuality being illegal up until,1993, divorce until 1995, and abortion still illegal, Ireland is very young in terms of commonly adopted first world social principles.

The problem there is the the Labour party in the UK and the Democrats in the US are still pretty centre right parties. That said, the Lib Dems are in coalition in the UK (don't really know much about them to say if they are centre right or not)

I said somewhere else: the alternatives are far right or centre left here, and Ireland is simply not comfortable with either scenario.

Forest Master

What frustrates me most is the idiots who just vote for whomever their parents vote(d) for - and always will - just like their parents do/did. That's why the FF cycle/reign has lasted so long - I believe 70-80% of voters are ignorant. They couldn't name one policy of the party they vote for.

Lumen

Forest Master wrote: »

I believe 70-80% of voters are ignorant. They couldn't name one policy of the party they vote for.

Maybe that's because Irish politics is a complete policy vacuum.

Scanlas The 2nd

Senna wrote: »

We are a right wing country with right wing believes.

Well economically I would have said we are left wing country with are generous social welfare and high minimum wage.

NTMK

Pauleta wrote: »

We got into this mess when the "centre-right" Fianna Fail dabbled in left wing policies like nationalizing the banks and the free money for all welfare system. Ireland dabbled slightly in left wing politics and we are crippled. We would be a 3rd world country if any of the far-left cockroaches were in charge. We must remain a centre-right country that opposes the far-left.

why should we stay centre-right when theyve done quite a bad job running the country for the last century?

youre very negative towards the left and you've yet to give a reason why

the actions of a corrupt centre right party should not reflect negatively on the left parties

Kasabian

RIght wing politics has us where we are.

Vote for political reform.

Pauleta

NTMK wrote: »

why should we stay centre-right when theyve done quite a bad job running the country for the last century?

youre very negative towards the left and you've yet to give a reason why

the actions of a corrupt centre right party should not reflect negatively on the left parties

It was left wing policies from a centre-right party that ruined the country. Economically Fianna Fail acted as right wing as Ryan Giggs.

Wibbs

NTMK wrote: »

why should we stay centre-right when theyve done quite a bad job running the country for the last century?

youre very negative towards the left and you've yet to give a reason why

the actions of a corrupt centre right party should not reflect negatively on the left partys

Centre left maybe, but more left than that? No way. They're great at spending money, but not so great at earning it.

OK examples from the current crowd; Tell the IMF to feck off. OK where do we get the money next year? Burn the bondholders. Nice headline, but a large chunk of them are Irish financial institutions. Tax the "super" rich. This is a classic of the lefties. Who do they really mean? Not the super rich, they'll just leave entirely(taking any tax revenue with them). In any event they're so small a number it would mean feck all to the tax haul anyway. No they're really talking about the middle classes. The easy targets who can't leave. No cutbacks to current social payments etc. Again brainiacs, where are ye getting the money for all of this? Create jobs through public works etc. Shades of autobahn building. And no I'm not Godwinning that might actually work. It has in the past. But and again a big but, where do ye get the funds to pay for all this, especially at a higher min wage? Ahh that's right, the pension fund. Brilliant economics. Not.

Kasabian

Wibbs wrote: »

Centre left maybe, but more left than that? No way. They're great at spending money, but not so great at earning it.

OK examples from the current crowd; Tell the IMF to feck off. OK where do we get the money next year? Burn the bondholders. Nice headline, but a large chunk of them are Irish financial institutions. Tax the "super" rich. This is a classic of the lefties. Who do they really mean? Not the super rich, they'll just leave entirely(taking any tax revenue with them). In any event they're so small a number it would mean feck all to the tax haul anyway. No they're really talking about the middle classes. The easy targets who can't leave. No cutbacks to current social payments etc. Again brainiacs, where are ye getting the money for all of this? Create jobs through public works etc. Shades of autobahn building. And no I'm not Godwinning that might actually work. It has in the past. But and again a big but, where do ye get the funds to pay for all this, especially at a higher min wage? Ahh that's right, the pension fund. Brilliant economics. Not.

Where have the brilliant economists from the right got us?

If you hire a plumber to fix a leak and when he finishes your house floods you don't go back and hire him again.

Right wing be it either FF or FG are that plumber.

pickarooney

Which party/parties brought Ireland out of the last big recession and into the celtic tiger era?

Wibbs

Kasabian wrote: »

If you hire a plumber to fix a leak and when he finishes your house floods you don't go back and hire him again.

Agreed, but its eye swivellingly daft to start looking to carpenters to fix the leak.

And no I dont believe in this baby with the bathwater "logic". "Oh they were bad so therefore any alternative has got to be good". History has shown that to be a baaaad idea more often than not.

NTMK

Pauleta wrote: »

It was left wing policies from a centre-right party that ruined the country. Economically Fianna Fail acted as right wing as Ryan Giggs.

Economically FF acted like idiots any left policies they tried to bring in they did them half arsed

they let the banks and economy run riot by not trying to control them with stricter regulations

They nationalised anglo despite being told not to

Left wing policies have not destroyed this county Corruption and lack of regulation have

NTMK

Wibbs wrote: »

Centre left maybe, but more left than that? No way. They're great at spending money, but not so great at earning it.

I agree with you. i wouldnt put the far left in goverment the economic policies are not the slightest bit realistic but i was mainly refering to the fact that pauleta was blaming the actions of a corrupt and inept goverment on leftist policies

Kasabian

Wibbs wrote: »

Agreed, but its eye swivellingly daft to start looking to carpenters to fix the leak.

And no I dont believe in this baby with the bathwater "logic". "Oh they were bad so therefore any alternative has got to be good". History has shown that to be a baaaad idea more often than not.

My point is that we need political reform, be that a new way of governing the government, the political elite need to be reigned in with a balance of views in the Dail.

The worst thing that can happen today is a majority FG government with noone to keep them in check.
FG/ Independants will just be more of the same.

Though I am left leaning in my views I am smart enough to know that a majority left government wouldn't be good either, we need a balance of views governing this country.

mgmt

Kasabian wrote: »

RIght wing politics has us where we are.

Vote for political reform.

HUH?????


A massive, inefficient, bloated, overpaid public sector is not right wing. Socialising the debts of the banks is not right wing.


A vote for the left in this country, is a vote for the prick in charge of the union movement who was also a focking director of the Irish Central Bank.

Fratton Fred

Kasabian wrote: »

Where have the brilliant economists from the right got us?

If you hire a plumber to fix a leak and when he finishes your house floods you don't go back and hire him again.

Right wing be it either FF or FG are that plumber.

Maybe, but you don't get bus driver to do it either.

Fratton Fred

Kasabian wrote: »

RIght wing politics has us where we are.

Vote for political reform.

No its not, it is greed, corruption and stupidity that got US here.

The trouble is, all the parties seem to have at least one of the above faults.

Wibbs

mgmt wrote: »

???


A massive, inefficient, bloated, overpaid public sector is not right wing. Socialising the debts of the banks is not right wing.


A vote for the left in this country, is a vote for the prick in charge of the union movement who was also a focking director of the Irish Central Bank.

Good points there. Esp with regard to the last one.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe, but you don't get bus driver to do it either.

Too slow man too slow... :D

mgmt

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No its not, it is greed, corruption and stupidity that got US here.

The trouble is, all the parties seem to have at least one of the above faults.

Precisely. I was watching Prime Time yesterday about the Pyrite problem in Ireland. It was frightening. Imagine if the greed in the Galway tent didn't happen , and we had proper accountability in this country.

Fallschirmjager

right wing FF/FG? wow...how then do we have such a huge government?

when you subtract 30 from 50...what do you get? i get 20. now add the word billion. we are overspending 20 billion per year. this is BEFORE we add the banks debts.

we need to separate for one minute the social issues and the cost. its not about whats needed, its what is needed that we can afford, and please spare me the idea that you are better then me because you scream you care more then me, you dont. can we please put that little left leaning 100 year lie to bed just for one minute.

we have one of the most financially lucrative social welfare system in europe. i realise it might not feel like that to some people but the harsh fact is we do.

we have crony capitalism with banks, builders, energy -- everything, all classic indicators of left leaning governemnts, and the bailouts are proof.

we have central planning for everything

we have a govt that controls the national broadcaster

we have a permanent political and government employee class.

low tax..it may look that way. just because you call something a charge or a fee or surcharge doesnt mean it isnt a tax. add them all up and see where you are..

we spend between 14-17 billion per year on healthcare alone for approx 4 million people. we have over 100,000 people working in healthcare, thats 1 in 40 people you see today on the streets work in healthcare that you are paying for out of a wealth creation sector measured in the low hundreds of thousands. thats just the health sector....1 in 40.

out of curiosity, how many bad teachers have been fired? i am sure we all agree they exist, how many bad doctors or nurses, policemen, postal workers, RTE people have we fired not for financial reasons but because they are bad at their work?

as for taxing the rich. they are the bogeymen in irish society, something to get people riled up and to go get the pitchforks so we dont see the men and women hidden behind the curtain turning the controls. there isnt 20 billion per year in tax hidden, that is an illusion. remember, the rich can travel, if we tax too much, they will pack their bags and leave.

With a govt this large for a small country and with a lucrative social welfare system which we cannot afford, we are looking at more receivers then givers -- that is now affecting the political system and our politicians know it. they dont have to satisfy you as a creator of wealth because you are sustaining 2-3 people who outvote you. its is just not viable. we wont survive.

govt money is recycled money, it is not created wealth. its made to look and act like new money. this idea that social welfare spend all their money and that is somehow a good thing is avoiding the real issue, if that was the case lets give everyone social welfare and all stop working and we can solve our debt overnight? the real issue is its not new wealth. our issue should be about creating new wealth. adding more govt jobs or higher social welfare wont solve our issues, it will compound them.

its very easy to try and prove you care more by voting to soak one group to pay another. class warfare is as old as history, that somehow there is a cash cow somewhere, but will it solve our issue, no it wont. its a diversion from our real problems. we have overpaid tenured politicians, overpaid civil service, overpaid central and local government, everyone who is getting recycled money doesnt have to live like you do. its guaranteed. is your job guaranteed, is your retirement guaranteed? your pension? because mine certainly isnt. I have to pay for mine and if you work in govt, i have to pay all of yours FIRST before i pay mine. just for a minute, ignore the needs and wants and ask...what is it we can afford? we have to sit down like adults and stop shouting about rights and start talking about responsibilities. now have at it, tell me how you care more then me, but remember this one thing...we dont have the money and this is nothing to do with the banks, remember we spend 50 billion and earn 30 billion. no amount of wheeler dealer magic is going to change that. the wealth creation sector is getting smaller and smaller and the weight of taxes is forcing more and more to say 'fuk it, im off'. We run the risk of an atlas shrugged moment and if we dont stop the insanity..the real revolution, where the employers and innovators and wealth creators will just leave is closer then you think, i would argue it is already in full swing. who will you tax then? what happens when you are classed as 'the rich'? this behemoth of govt needs to be fed and the next victim in line once it has consumed the 'rich' is Y O U.

Wibbs

Left= great idea, how do you pay for it?

Permabear

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Kasabian

mgmt wrote: »

HUH?????


A massive, inefficient, bloated, overpaid public sector is not right wing. Socialising the debts of the banks is not right wing.


A vote for the left in this country, is a vote for the prick in charge of the union movement who was also a focking director of the Irish Central Bank.

It was a right wing decision to make the bank debts a social problem, was it not?

Capitalism at it's finest there.

Permabear

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Kasabian

Permabear wrote: »

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I think you know what I mean.

Permabear

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Kasabian

Permabear wrote: »

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Labour?

Permabear

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Stabshauptmann

markesmith wrote: »

Tomorrow, we go to the ballot. The two main parties in Ireland are centre-right/right-wing, Christian Democrat parties in favour of lower taxes, free market control, etc etc.

In America, you have the Democrats.

The Democrats are right of centre. About on a par with FG or FF.
The Republicans are right wing.

To use america as an example of a democracy with more alternatives seems ill informed.

I'd also like to point out we have a parlimentary system. Not only can I vote for a party line, I will have the choice today of a FG candidate in favour of gay marrage, and one who is not, for example.

Stabshauptmann

Kasabian wrote: »

It was a right wing decision to make the bank debts a social problem, was it not?

Capitalism at it's finest there.

No, it was a decision that flew in the face of capitalism. In capitalism you let failed businesses fail.