Do Catholics practice idolatry?

whiteonion

I myself believe in no gods but it has been brought to my attention that Catholics might practice idolatry. Is it not true that many Catholics bow down in front of statues of Mary and the saints and pray in front of these statues? How can this not be considered idolatry? I do not mean to provoke any believers by the way, however the way I interpret the bible is that it is forbidden to pray in front of statues and invoke saints like they were some sort of demi gods.

noah45

Yes I agree and the bible disproves of this! Cannot understand why they do it. Also they pray to saints instead of the Father himself.

Manach

Do some non-catholics lack the capacity to use the Forum search function? Offhand, I'd say the we honour the saints, especially those we feel an affinity for - in my case St. Jude.

Ghost Buster

Manach wrote: »

Do some non-catholics lack the capacity to use the Forum search function? Offhand, I'd say the we honour the saints, especially those we feel an affinity for - in my case St. Jude.

What differentiates 'honouring' from 'praying'.
I visited Knock many time in my Catholic youth in Mayo and they certainly seemed to be praying to the BVM not just honouring her.

Ghost Buster

Manach wrote: »

Do some non-catholics lack the capacity to use the Forum search function? Offhand, I'd say the we honour the saints, especially those we feel an affinity for - in my case St. Jude.

Non Catholics. This is the Christian forum so there lots and lots and lots of non Catholics on here all the time

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Donatello

Some Catholics might, but it's not part of Church teaching.

We have a San Damiano crucifix in our hallway. I sometimes kiss the feet of our blessed Lord as a pledge of my fidelity. I often do this when I am struggling with purity, for example. I kiss his wounded feet. That is not idolatry. The crucifix is not God. It is an inanimate object. But it portrays God, and when I kiss it, I am intending to honour God and to ask for His grace to help me be like Him, for without Him, I can do nothing. I am not being idolatrous. Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a god. I don't think I ever met a Catholic who worshipped a physical object as God.

Manach

Well, posting on this forum certain requires constant communication with that saint.
The statue is a helpful visualisation, it is not itself worshipped but instead forms an easement of communication.

georgieporgy

noah45 wrote: »

Yes I agree and the bible disproves of this! Cannot understand why they do it. Also they pray to saints instead of the Father himself.

A favourite prayer of catholics is the Our Father which I believe is a prayer addressed to the Father himself.

Catholics pray to the saints because it's quite biblical to do so. Try to differentiate between prayer and worship.;


The Communion of Saints

Paul's letters clarify how the Apostolic Church under the influence of the Holy Spirit spoke of believers as "saints," whether living or dead.
Paul asked the saints to pray for him and to imitate him.
Faithful people in the Post-Apostolic Church in the Apostles Creed defined the confessional response to faith in their creed: "We believe in the communion of saints."
Through Baptism we pass "from death to life; death no longer has dominion over us." Christians must believe that there is no real distinction between the believer in human life and after human life. Saints, living or dead, are indistinguishable before God.
If we can pray for and with saints in this life, we can pray for and with those saints after human life.
And as Paul asked saints to imitate him as he imitates Christ, the Church encourages Catholic Christians to imitate the holiness of the saints as they imitated the holiness of Christ and the Father.
As a hem of a garment, the shadows of saints, and clothes of the saints were used devotionally in the Apostolic Church, so relics and images of the saints are devotionally encouraged by the Church today.
First among saints by the fullness of grace which was hers is the Mother of Jesus, Mary.

irishconvert

This is something i cannot understand either. My mother seems to pray to everybody but God himself. She has photos and statues in her house, although she does not directly pray to them, I can't help but feel it is wrong.

What about the first commandment:
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Ok, I know the Catholic church removed the highlighted part, but can someone tell me why? What was the backgound to this?

irishconvert

Donatello wrote: »

Some Catholics might, but it's not part of Church teaching.

We have a San Damiano crucifix in our hallway. I sometimes kiss the feet of our blessed Lord as a pledge of my fidelity. I often do this when I am struggling with purity, for example. I kiss his wounded feet. That is not idolatry. The crucifix is not God. It is an inanimate object. But it portrays God, and when I kiss it, I am intending to honour God and to ask for His grace to help me be like Him, for without Him, I can do nothing. I am not being idolatrous. Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a god. I don't think I ever met a Catholic who worshipped a physical object as God.

So would you be upset if someone smashed it up?

Queen-Mise

isnt idolatry of the catholic church one of the many reasons for the reformation. The prostestant (sp?) churches dont allow idols in church. catholic church is full of idols.

Donatello

irishconvert wrote: »

So would you be upset if someone smashed it up?

Yeah, because I couldn't help but see it as an attack on God Himself. If I tear up a photo of a person in their presence, it is an act of hatred. Likewise, if I destroy an image of God, say a crucifix or picture, in the presence of God (Who is everywhere)... well, you get the picture.

Remember also that God told us to make statues in the past... That article also deals with the 'hiding part of the Commandment' charge mentioned above, and concludes that no, the Church does not promote idolatry and in fact condemns it.

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

The Second Council of Nicaea, interestingly, condemns those who would oppose the legitimate use of statues with the following:

1. If anyone does not confess that Christ our God can be represented in his humanity, let him be anathema.

2. If anyone does not accept representation in art of evangelical scenes [scenes from the life of Christ], let him be anathema.

3. If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.

4. If anyone rejects any written or unwritten tradition of the Church, let him be anathema.

dead one

whiteonion wrote: »

I myself believe in no gods but it has been brought to my attention that Catholics might practice idolatry. Is it not true that many Catholics bow down in front of statues of Mary and the saints and pray in front of these statues? How can this not be considered idolatry? I do not mean to provoke any believers by the way, however the way I interpret the bible is that it is forbidden to pray in front of statues and invoke saints like they were some sort of demi gods.

Sir Onion

Please

Out of the encyclopaedia of 73 Books of the Roman Catholics and 66 Books of the Protestants called the "BIBLE", endless number of quotations can be culled to fill a book larger than this publication to illustrate man's various imperfect descriptions of God.
In the realm of the spirit, no nation has had as much opportunities as the children of Israel. And despite repeated warnings to the effect that: 'THY GOD IS A JEALOUS GOD, HE SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BEFORE HIM, NOT EVEN OF THE LIKENESS OF THE THINGS ON EARTH, OR IN THE HEAVENS ABOVE, OR IN THE WATERS BENEATH THE SEA ... (Exodus 20:3-5), they took the golden calf for worship, and again and again reverted into idolatry. . Visit St. Paul's Cathedral in London, or St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome and you will have very little to distinguish them from the Temple of Somnath in India. It is a question of Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee. You do not really have to go to England or Italy to verify my statement. Why not an inspection in loco to an Anglican or a Roman Catholic Cathedral

georgieporgy

You guys should be careful what you read. Not everything written is true. You may end up losing the Faith and believing a lie.

Check your homes and wallets for pictures of loved ones lest the idolatory police misunderstand your innocent explanation of them.

JimiTime

whiteonion wrote: »

I myself believe in no gods but it has been brought to my attention that Catholics might practice idolatry. Is it not true that many Catholics bow down in front of statues of Mary and the saints and pray in front of these statues? How can this not be considered idolatry? I do not mean to provoke any believers by the way, however the way I interpret the bible is that it is forbidden to pray in front of statues and invoke saints like they were some sort of demi gods.

Yes would be the answer from any outsider looking in I think. Only RC's themselves seem to say its not idolatry. One only needs to see the 'reverence' of Mary (Queen of heaven??), and the amount of prayer directed at saints etc. I understand the objection to this view from RC's, as in its intercession etc. I.E. If Paul, Peter etc were here, I would ask them to pray for me, just like I ask others to. However, with this unbiblical doctrine, you must believe that the dead are omnipresent too which is rather presumptuous. Also, when one witnesses the 'adoration' of Mary, it cannot simply be talked away as an intercessory medium.

It seems that words like 'adoration' etc simply look to avoid what is actually happening.

If it walks like like a duck, talks like a duck.... etc.

We need to honestly look at the history of our faith, from BEFORE and after Christ. Try leave religiosity behind as we look. In relation to this topic, what do we see? I certainly see no evidence in all of scripture that such practice is encouraged AT ALL. Even if you continue to argue against these practices being idolatrous, I think you still need to acknowledge the severe lack of wisdom in encouraging its practice. So many believe that these things are powerful, having 'holy' medals and figurines of Pare Pio etc for protection etc.

Look what happened to the copper serpent that Moses erected. Here we had something that God commanded to be made (Prophetically pointing to Christs saving sacrifice, and that he was impaled like something cursed). The Israelites over the years offered up incense in front of it. Did the good king say, 'well thats not as it was intended'? No, he had it broken to pieces.

prinz

I haven't seen anyone make an idol out of a statue or picture and still proclaim to be Catholic. Some people do get superstitious about trinkets but still don't see anyone replacing God with anybody else. Just because someone prays to a saint from time to time doesn't mean they are equating that saint/person with Jesus or God. I sometimes say 'prayers' as if I was speaking to my long dead grandparents - does that mean I am putting them before God or attributing divinity to them or worshipping them? No.

JimiTime

prinz wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone make an idol out of a statue or picture and still proclaim to be Catholic. Some people do get superstitious about trinkets but still don't see anyone replacing God with anybody else. Just because someone prays to a saint from time to time doesn't mean they are equating that saint/person with Jesus or God. I sometimes say 'prayers' as if I was speaking to my long dead grandparents - does that mean I am putting them before God or attributing divinity to them or worshipping them? No.

Here is a few examples of St Jude prayers.

"St. Jude, please assist me in these difficult financial circumstances. I beg you to shine the light on the resources that I need to help meet my debts and satisfy my pressing obligations."

"I promise, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, to always honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to you by publishing this request. Amen."

What would you make of the above?

boatbuilder

As a non-catholic myself, I continue to be amazed at the idolatry that goes on in the RC Church. I don't want to turn this into a RC-bashing post though!

However, let me give you a few examples of things that (as far I know) have no biblical backing whatsoever. Statues of Mary (and other icons) in people's houses, in the church, grottos...etc etc. Padre Pio grottos. Praying to Mary! (who is not God). Mary is the ultimate Roman Catholic idol.

All of these things are icons (ie a graven image). People in the RC church bow down to them, kiss them, heck they even pray to them.

To quote a relevant Bible passage:

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

boatbuilder

Here is a few examples of St Jude prayers.

What would you make of the above?

Jude isn't God, nor is any other saint.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy V2

Christians should really only pray either directly to God, or to God via Jesus and no one else.
Anything else is elevating a mere human being (dead or alive) to a position of "god-likeness" as if they have some kind of power to help you out. They don't...they're dead. God and Jesus are alive though

One more thing that springs to mind but might not be 100% relevant to idolatry..... I was at a funeral in a RC church recently and the relatives and grandkids of the dead person brought "gifts" up to the front. The priest prayed saying "God, please accept this sacrifice we offer for the soul of _______"
What is that all about? Do the RC church still not realise that sacrifices were only necessary BEFORE Jesus came into the world 2000 years ago? I challenge any RC follower to find me an example of where sacrifice is advocated in the NEW testament.

prinz

JimiTime wrote: »

What would you make of the above?

Prayers to somebody they respected or have some affinity with for whatever reason? Many countries and cities have patron saints, as do organisations etc. Does St George and St George's Day mean all English are idolators? Various Church of Ireland churches are named after/dedicated to certain saints, is this idolatry?

lmaopml

boatbuilder wrote: »

Jude isn't God, nor is any other saint.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy V2

Christians should really only pray either directly to God, or to God via Jesus and no one else.
Anything else is elevating a mere human being (dead or alive) to a position of "god-likeness" as if they have some kind of power to help you out. They don't...they're dead. God and Jesus are alive though

One more thing that springs to mind but might not be 100% relevant to idolatry..... I was at a funeral in a RC church recently and the relatives and grandkids of the dead person brought "gifts" up to the front. The priest prayed saying "God, please accept this sacrifice we offer for the soul of _______"
What is that all about? Do the RC church still not realise that sacrifices were only necessary BEFORE Jesus came into the world 2000 years ago? I challenge any RC follower to find me an example of where sacrifice is advocated in the NEW testament.

Hi boatbuilder,

When you attend Catholic mass the only 'sacrifice' referred to is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The 'gifts' are his body and blood...his death for our sins....There is a difference between a reformed persons perspective on the 'service' and the Catholic mass in that we believe in the 'real presence' of Christ..

Hope this helps.

OP, I can see and even understand why many of the reformers 'worried' about how the intercession of the saints is looked on in the Catholic church, and also how it could be abused - It's difficult to get your head around especially if you may have a bias already there -

Simply put though, Catholics would believe that asking a 'saint' or loved one for prayers, or to intercede for them, is much like asking a friend or vicar who is physically 'alive' to pray for them to God. It is moreso a 'celebration' and a deep conviction that Jesus 'conquered' death on the cross and it seperates us no more - that we are forever a family 'alive' in Christ...It is the ultimate 'celebration' of this fact.

We don't 'idolise' pieces of clay or pictures etc. etc. so on...We pray 'at' these statues not 'to' these statues in churches, grottos etc. - We also ask the saints to pray for us without the need of a 'statue' lol...

A statue is just a statue. Although, I do understand that some people seem to go overboard and perhaps could misunderstand the teaching. That's why it's important for our priests etc. to re-iterate and educate and guide properly on these matters..

It's difficult to know truely what 'any' individual whether they are Catholic or no 'idolise' - there are many many forms of it - best to search our own consciences methinks.

Donatello

boatbuilder wrote: »

Jude isn't God, nor is any other saint.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy V2

Christians should really only pray either directly to God, or to God via Jesus and no one else.
Anything else is elevating a mere human being (dead or alive) to a position of "god-likeness" as if they have some kind of power to help you out. They don't...they're dead. God and Jesus are alive though

One more thing that springs to mind but might not be 100% relevant to idolatry..... I was at a funeral in a RC church recently and the relatives and grandkids of the dead person brought "gifts" up to the front. The priest prayed saying "God, please accept this sacrifice we offer for the soul of _______"
What is that all about? Do the RC church still not realise that sacrifices were only necessary BEFORE Jesus came into the world 2000 years ago? I challenge any RC follower to find me an example of where sacrifice is advocated in the NEW testament.

Saints are not dead. They are alive.

Additionally, we do not adore the BVM. We venerate her. We adore God alone.

keano_afc

Donatello wrote: »

Saints are not dead. They are alive.

Additionally, we do not adore the BVM. We venerate her. We adore God alone.

I wouldnt dispute this. Are they omipresent though? If you are praying to a saint at the same time as someone in Australia for example, are both prayers heard? I raised this question many, many times in this forum for Catholics to answer. I dont understand praying to anyone else other than God. God answers prayer, there is no need for "intercession". Why are Catholics mistrusting of God's ability to hear prayer? And please dont give me the "its the same as asking a friend to pray for you" line. Its not. When I ask a friend to pray for me, they pray to God. Not some dead sinner. Really annoys me sometimes the lack of faith shown by Catholics over this issue.

JimiTime

prinz wrote: »

Prayers to somebody they respected or have some affinity with for whatever reason?

I promise, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, to always honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to you by publishing this request. Amen

What do you make of that? Is the above ok to you? Is that intercessory prayer?

Many countries and cities have patron saints, as do organisations etc. Does St George and St George's Day mean all English are idolators?

No it doesn't. Though if you happen to pray to, devote etc to St George, whatever your nation, then yes, that is idolatrous as I understand it.

Various Church of Ireland churches are named after/dedicated to certain saints, is this idolatry?

Again, it depends on the motive.

georgieporgy

keano_afc wrote: »

I wouldnt dispute this. Are they omipresent though? If you are praying to a saint at the same time as someone in Australia for example, are both prayers heard? I raised this question many, many times in this forum for Catholics to answer. I dont understand praying to anyone else other than God. God answers prayer, there is no need for "intercession". Why are Catholics mistrusting of God's ability to hear prayer? And please dont give me the "its the same as asking a friend to pray for you" line. Its not. When I ask a friend to pray for me, they pray to God. Not some dead sinner. Really annoys me sometimes the lack of faith shown by Catholics over this issue.

When you ask a friend to pray for you , he prays to God on your behalf.
When you ask a saint to pray for you, he prays to God on your behalf.

What's the diff?

As for omnipresence. Things are different in the next life. If in this life you can communicate with a group of people around the world simultaneously on twitter, it isn't a big stretch to imagine God might have an even better system in heaven.

georgieporgy

boatbuilder wrote: »

Do the RC church still not realise that sacrifices were only necessary BEFORE Jesus came into the world 2000 years ago? I challenge any RC follower to find me an example of where sacrifice is advocated in the NEW testament.

At the Last Supper when Jesus instituted the sacrament of the eucharist, Jesus instructed the apostles to "do this in memory of me". The eucharist (Mass) is Christ's sacrifice repeated in an unbloody manner.

like most catholics I can't give chapter and verse, - just relying on memory for the quote.

JimiTime

georgieporgy wrote: »

When you ask a friend to pray for you , he prays to God on your behalf.
When you ask a saint to pray for you, he prays to God on your behalf.

What's the diff?

a) Your friend hears you. You do not actually have any idea if dead people can, be they saints or otherwise. So in order to believe in your praying to saints etc, you must introduce a new doctrine. That being that the dead are omnipresent, based on what, i'm not sure.

b) As a practice biblically, people did not pray to David, Solomon, Nathan, Elijah etc. Similarly, there is no sign of such a practice in the New Testament.

As for omnipresence. Things are different in the next life. If in this life you can communicate with a group of people around the world simultaneously on twitter, it isn't a big stretch to imagine God might have an even better system in heaven.

heh heh

boatbuilder

Firstly, in response to the "sacrifice" thing at funerals, I can't imagine how they could be talking about Jesus's sacrifice. They are saying "God, please accept OUR sacrifices" (ie gifts brought to the front).
First time I heard this at a funeral, I thought I had heard wrong, but I've been to a few now and the phrasing has been the same.

Personally I think the very notion of a saint is wrong in itself. It is elevating a human being to a higher plane of some sort. So whether its Church of Ireland or Roman Catholic, I wouldn't agree with it.

boatbuilder

georgieporgy wrote: »

[/B]

At the Last Supper when Jesus instituted the sacrament of the eucharist, Jesus instructed the apostles to "do this in memory of me". The eucharist (Mass) is Christ's sacrifice repeated in an unbloody manner.

like most catholics I can't give chapter and verse, - just relying on memory for the quote.

Jesus was talking about communion (bread and wine) in that instance, not as any kind of sacrifice, but "in memory of me"

JimiTime

boatbuilder wrote: »

.

Personally I think the very notion of a saint is wrong in itself. It is elevating a human being to a higher plane of some sort. So whether its Church of Ireland or Roman Catholic, I wouldn't agree with it.

I understand where you are coming from with regards to the RC viewing of sainthood, canonisation and procedure etc, but biblically it is used to describe those 'set apart', i.e. Those who have been saved. It comes from the Greek word 'hagios'. So I would say its a term that is legitimate, but that has been somewhat corrupted.

georgieporgy

JimiTime wrote: »

a) Your friend hears you. You do not actually have any idea if dead people can, be they saints or otherwise. So in order to believe in your praying to saints etc, you must introduce a new doctrine. That being that the dead are omnipresent, based on what, i'm not sure.[/code]

Jesus said to the good thief on the cross "this day you shall be with me in paradise". presumably he meant alive in heaven.

furthermore all christians believe in the "Communion of the Saints"

georgieporgy

boatbuilder wrote: »

Firstly, in response to the "sacrifice" thing at funerals, I can't imagine how they could be talking about Jesus's sacrifice. They are saying "God, please accept OUR sacrifices" (ie gifts brought to the front).
First time I heard this at a funeral, I thought I had heard wrong, but I've been to a few now and the phrasing has been the same.

You misheard and misunderstood. Next time get the mass booklet and carefully note the words. The gifts you saw being brought to the altar are just that, gifts. This is at the "Offertory". At the end of the offeratory the prayer you heard is said. The priest says "pray brethren that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God" and the congregation responds "may the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name , for our good, and the good of all his church".

The sacrifice referred to is the sacrifice of the mass that comes shortly after.

lmaopml

boatbuilder wrote: »

Firstly, in response to the "sacrifice" thing at funerals, I can't imagine how they could be talking about Jesus's sacrifice. They are saying "God, please accept OUR sacrifices" (ie gifts brought to the front).
First time I heard this at a funeral, I thought I had heard wrong, but I've been to a few now and the phrasing has been the same.

Personally I think the very notion of a saint is wrong in itself. It is elevating a human being to a higher plane of some sort. So whether its Church of Ireland or Roman Catholic, I wouldn't agree with it.

Not agreeing with a 'saint' sounds odd to me, even 'biblically' it's weird, the 'communion of the saints' is very very real ...and part of being Catholic / Christian of any denom is 'Sacred Scripture' no?

We hear it daily at mass; the 'communion of saints'....every single verse and line quoted on this thread is 'read aloud' at mass..., including being 'one mediator', that is not a 'problem' for us - it is a smoke and dagger guise that is misunderstood in the extreme...

Lol, at the twitter/facebook idea and how omniscience and the infinitely greater all powerfull will of God's communication skills are...we 'trusted' in that before 'facebook' was ever invented, such simpletons were we to believe that God had a bigger plan than the internet...

That only represents a shadow of how 'Catholics' and so too the ancient churches until the reformation trusted God and his might - nothing is impossible to God..especially basic communication skills..

And there should be no doubt that Catholics worship the 'One' and only God....It should be quite clear to the 'learned' that a quote taken on it's own means very little - most especially if one has felt that blow before from an adversary...we should be on the same side, we should 'love' eachother...

Catholics, along with the Orthodox believe in 'Sacred Scripture' as much as reformed churches....A little less pride would do well to finally be one like we are called to be...

caseyann

Because humans are visual people and need to see to become familiar.
I dont do it though.I just think of them as art and pretty.

lmaopml

boatbuilder wrote: »

Firstly, in response to the "sacrifice" thing at funerals, I can't imagine how they could be talking about Jesus's sacrifice. They are saying "God, please accept OUR sacrifices" (ie gifts brought to the front).
First time I heard this at a funeral, I thought I had heard wrong, but I've been to a few now and the phrasing has been the same.

Personally I think the very notion of a saint is wrong in itself. It is elevating a human being to a higher plane of some sort. So whether its Church of Ireland or Roman Catholic, I wouldn't agree with it.

Not agreeing with a 'saint' sounds odd to me, even 'biblically' it's weird, the 'communion of the saints' is very very real ...and part of being Catholic / Christian of any denom is 'Sacred Scripture' no?

We hear it daily at mass; the 'communion of saints'....every single verse and line quoted on this thread is 'read aloud' at mass..., including being 'one mediator', that is not a 'problem' for us - it is a smoke and dagger guise that is misunderstood in the extreme...

Lol, at the twitter/facebook idea and how omniscience and the infinitely greater all powerfull will of God's communication skills are...we 'trusted' in that before 'facebook' was ever invented, such simpletons were we to believe that God had a bigger plan than the internet...

That only represents a shadow of how 'Catholics' and so too the ancient churches until the reformation trusted God and his might - nothing is impossible to God..especially basic communication skills..

And there should be no doubt that Catholics worship the 'One' and only God....It should be quite clear to the 'learned' that a quote taken on it's own means very little - most especially if one has felt that blow before from an adversary...we should be on the same side, we should 'love' eachother...

Catholics, along with the Orthodox believe in 'Sacred Scripture' as much as reformed churches....A little less pride would do well to finally be one like we are called to be...

Fanny Cradock

It's an interesting question. While I can accept that an object (Jesus on the cross or whatever) might be used as a aid to meditating on God, I've seen enough bizarre practices in RC churches throughout the world (from Argentina to Vietnam) to have reached the conclusion that this often isn't the manner in how these objects are used. Indeed, some of the stuff I've witnessed (such as the fixation and worship of a certain Saint or even local priest) must be classified as idolatry.

boatbuilder

Ah ok, maybe thats it. I still have a problem accepting it though....

The definition of sacrifice is the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage. So mass is a sacrifice? If so, thats exactly what I don't agree with...there is no need for any kind of sacrifices according to the Bible IMO.

I suppose when I said I didn't agree with the concept of saints...I meant in the context of praying to them. Aren't all believers in Christ saints?

georgieporgy wrote: »

The sacrifice referred to is the sacrifice of the mass that comes shortly after.

Fanny Cradock

boatbuilder wrote: »

So mass is a sacrifice?

I expect it is considered to be an act of worship and a time of reflection where one can dray nearer to God.

As for sacrifices being abolished - it really depends on what type of sacrifice you are talking about. Following Christ involves personal sacrifice - something I've all too often not been willing to make.

Manach

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I've seen enough bizarre practices in RC churches throughout the world

I'm a wee bit hazy on the details, but I'm fairly sure snake handling might also qualify as bizarre.

Fanny Cradock

Manach wrote: »

I'm a wee bit hazy on the details, but I'm fairly sure snake handling might also qualify as bizarre.

If I was into handling snakes you might have a point. But I'm not ! *Shock* *Horror* That's why I'm happy to take it one step further and say snake handling is lunacy and probably idolatrous.

Donatello

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I expect it is considered to be an act of worship and a time of reflection where one can dray nearer to God.

As for sacrifices being abolished - it really depends on what type of sacrifice you are talking about. Following Christ involves personal sacrifice - something I've all too often not been willing to make.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is one and the same sacrifice as Calvary, re-presented to the Father along with all our own personal sacrifices - ourselves, our lives, as living sacrifices along with Christ.

santing

A comparable worship (imho) we find in Exodus

Then all the people tore off the gold rings which were in their ears and brought [them] to Aaron .
He took [this] from their hand , and fashioned it with a graving tool and made it into a molten calf ; and they said , "This is your god , O Israel , who brought you up from the land of Egypt ." Now when Aaron saw [this], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said , "Tomorrow [shall be] a feast to the LORD ."
So the next day they rose early and offered burnt offerings , and brought peace offerings ; and the people sat down to eat and to drink , and rose up to play .
Then the LORD spoke to Moses , "Go down at once , for your people , whom you brought up from the land of Egypt , have corrupted [themselves].
"They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf , and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said , 'This is your god , O Israel , who brought you up from the land of Egypt !'"
Exod 32:3 - 8 (NASB)

Note what Aaron said: "This is your God" He just wanted to make it easier for the people to worship the God that was invisible.

AhSureTisGrand

How do Catholics worship Mary if they don't believe they're worshipping Mary? If your acts are intended merely as veneration, then aren't they just that?

Ghost Buster

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

How do Catholics worship Mary if they don't believe they're worshipping Mary? If your acts are intended merely as veneration, then aren't they just that?

Perhaps this sums up irish Catholics by and large?
The amount of Irish catholics I know with a pick and mix/ quasi protestant/ I dont believe in transubstantiation attitude is staggering.
Heck yes they practice idolatry and they either dont know it, dont accept it or just dont know its against their religion.

AhSureTisGrand

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Perhaps this sums up irish Catholics by and large?
The amount of Irish catholics I know with a pick and mix/ quasi protestant/ I dont believe in transubstantiation attitude is staggering.
Heck yes they practice idolatry and they either dont know it, dont accept it or just dont know its against their religion.

So then are they "true" Catholics? If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but flies like an eagle and breathes fire, then wtf is it?

Ghost Buster

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

So then are they "true" Catholics? If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but flies like an eagle and breathes fire, then wtf is it?

Confused, vague, habitual, cultural but catered for above others:)

Why not just be 'Christian'....?

AhSureTisGrand

Is this thread directed at Catholics or Catholicism? If the former, then what's the point? Seems to me rather like pointing out that architects have been found to commit rape, or that not all plumbers pay their taxes

Ghost Buster

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Is this thread directed at Catholics or Catholicism? If the former, then what's the point? Seems to me rather like pointing out that architects have been found to commit rape, or that not all plumbers pay their taxes

Sorry. Youve lost me

AhSureTisGrand

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Sorry. Youve lost me

Being an architect does not lead to being a rapist. Likewise, following Catholicism correctly does not lead to idolatry

Ghost Buster

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Being an architect does not lead to being a rapist. Likewise, following Catholicism correctly does not lead to idolatry

I think we have crossed wires here!!!
Im not saying that following Catholicism leads to idolatry. Im saying that many many Irish catholics are so by birth/ culture only and other than the odd trip to mass, b repeating the same process with their kids and ticking the census box every few years have not a notion about their beliefs.
They do indeed practice idolatry without even realising that they should not