The Failed Waterford Bypass and Toll System

Marchandire

A couple of recent articles have examined the new Waterford bypass. They make interesting reading: http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/a_bridge_too_far_suir_crossing_is_a_rip_off_nra_1_2395649

The new bridge - slated to carry 14,000 vehicles per day in year one - is operating at one third capacity and only carrying an average of 5,500 vehicles per day. In contrast, the impact on traffic on Rice Bridge is effectively non-existent:

'Traffic figures from the Edmund Rice Bridge have remained stubbornly high. The most recent comparable figures available show that the levels of traffic using the Edmund Rice bridge before and after the opening of the Suir Bridge have decreased by 2,000 vehicles a day, from 40,000 to 38,000. The Department of Transport and the National Roads Authority had claimed that traffic volumes using Rice Bridge would be reduced by 10,000 to 12,000 vehicles per day once the Suir bridge was in operation.'

Gary Fitzgerald goes further with this analysis in the print edition of Village Magazine. A study commissioned by the Rainbow coalition in the 1990s concluded that Irish roads are unsuitable for tolling (given the vast number of country/back roads that allow drivers to avoid tolls, I assume). This was ignored by the FF/PD coalition, who embarked on a series of toll-road PPP projects. This included the 52 million Euro Waterford bypass.

He goes on to say that the toll operators most likely have a 'minimum usage' clause in their contract. This means the operator is compensated by the state if traffic volumes are low. A guaranteed return on their investment in every circumstance, funded by the local taxpayer.

Essentially, the bypass has had no effect on congestion in the city and is a potential burden on the taxpayer for the next twenty years. The potential for failure was discussed fifteen years ago but ignored by local and national politicians. To quote:

'Instead of a busy bypass and a traffic free city, we have an empty bypass and a city as congested as it ever was...52 million Euro wasted in Waterford. The city condemned to years of further congestion. Prime agriculltural land concreted over. A private consortium makes a guaranteed profit for 26 years.'

This bypass was almost universally welcomed by local politicians, as various blog posts and news articles/press releases demonstrate.

I just wanted to highlight this before polling day.

dayshah

Is this a fair summary?

If we keep the toll, few people use the road and we have to compensate the operators.

If we abolish the toll people will use the road, but we must compensate the operators.


I'd say we should abolish the toll. Pity this didn't come up during the election campaign.

old gregg

I suppose we need to know whether there is in fact a minimum usage clause in the contract. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to the workings of the FF scumbag government but it would be nice to be on solid ground here.

I'll fire off a quick mail to city council to see if they can either give us an answer or point me in the direction of the right place to ask. It being city council I don't expect a response soon. If anyone else knows where to get this info then many thanks.

wellboytoo

What is the point of this article?
It failed to mention the benefits of the bypass completely, its like it was written to be a negative story only,one wonders about the reason behind such an article written about Waterford from a Kilkenny perspective.
Personally I came from Dublin Airport yesterday morning to Tramore across it in two hours, after a long flight that was a great relief to me knowing I did not have to face the bog road of yesteryear and coming into Waterford I could avoid the quays et al.
I stress again what was the point of this article?

Max Powers

To be fair to the KK people article, traffic numbers have been disappointing on the bypass,however this is very similar to what happened with the opening of the M50. We are also in the worst recession in the history of the state, car traffic has dropped significantly.
Plans are afoot for the Waterford Quays and Mall to be made more pedestrian and less traffic friendly which will increase flow onto the bypass. What is the point of the article being front page news in KK?, it smacks of a bit of jealousy really,
the Bridge is a fantastic advertisement for Waterford and the SE,
has reduced travel times in general around the area including south KK,
reduced heavy traffic through the city,
given an alternative access point to the city which was needed,
reduced traffic times from Cork to Rosslare and is a significant piece of infrastructure for all of the south east including KK.

Joey leBlanc

wellboytoo wrote: »

What is the point of this article?
It failed to mention the benefits of the bypass completely, its like it was written to be a negative story only,one wonders about the reason behind such an article written about Waterford from a Kilkenny perspective.
Personally I came from Dublin Airport yesterday morning to Tramore across it in two hours, after a long flight that was a great relief to me knowing I did not have to face the bog road of yesteryear and coming into Waterford I could avoid the quays et al.
I stress again what was the point of this article?

Agree 100%. The article is pointless. The road/bypass/bridge is a fantastic addition to Waterford & it's environs. Nobody would envisage revisiting the torturous old n9 road winding it's way through every bend in South Kilkenny at a snail's pace with tailbacks in both directions as far as the eye could see!
BTW I'd like to state that this is not an anti-Kilkenny post as I have family & relations from there (indeed so do a large percentage of Waterford people).

rayc

Joey leBlanc wrote: »

Agree 100%. The article is pointless. The road/bypass/bridge is a fantastic addition to Waterford & it's environs. Nobody would envisage revisiting the torturous old n9 road winding it's way through every bend in South Kilkenny at a snail's pace with tailbacks in both directions as far as the eye could see!
BTW I'd like to state that this is not an anti-Kilkenny post as I have family & relations from there (indeed so do a large percentage of Waterford people).

In fairness from what I read of the article there, it's only about the bridge and not the M9. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find someone to say the M9 isn't a fantastic addition to the region. However, as of yet I'd have to agree the the city bypass has not reached it's full potential. It's still relatively easy to get though the city, via summerhill or grattan quay, to the carrickpherish road and back onto the bypass. And this is what an awful lot of the daily commuters are doing. I mean this has been said loads of times already here in the Waterford forum itself.

Although where'd I'd disagree with the article is that I think its a bit soon to judge it a 'waste'. It has only been over a year since it opened, added to that impact of the recession and I think the lack of incentives on the part of the toll operator (i.e. decent savings for frequent users) have also been significant problems in its under-utilisation.

mike65

Joey leBlanc wrote: »

BTW I'd like to state that this is not an anti-Kilkenny post as I have family & relations from there

To be fair thats no reason not to be anti somewhere We all know the toll was a folly (its a tax on going to work for most regular users) and yes the current economic environment means its not being used to the level envisaged. The gentrification work on the Quays will only have an impact if commerical vehicles are shoo'd away for good.

Does anyone have a link to the south Quays plans?

ziedth

Without even knowing that there is a minimum usage policy (I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to find out) I can't believe a whole article has been written arond it.

Bards

Upping the limit on the ORR to 80 Km/H might have a positive effect on people using the Bypass from the Dunmore Road side.

At the moment it takes longer to get to the bypass by using the ORR with the dreadfully low inappropiate speed limit on it.

Why would one use the ORR/Bypass/Toll when the Toll Free route is quicker?

old gregg

ziedth wrote: »

Without even knowing that there is a minimum usage policy (I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to find out) I can't believe a whole article has been written arond it.

Indeed, I've emailed info@n25waterfordbypass.ie this morning to see if I can find out. If there is it makes the article relevant, otherwise not I guess.

wmpdd3

I think the singage comming from Cork and Dublin is useless. Visitors have rang us when they have ended up in town because the didn't understand the signage.

As is the signage from Waterford city, drivers are 50mts from the roundabout at Grannagh before there is a sign for the bypass. They must know there is a problem because they put electronic signs up, but you have to be driving very slowly to read these signs fully.

You know yourself if its been a while since you visited a place and you try a new road and get confused, 1st thing you do is divert back to the road you know.

Do you know which part of Waterford is Waterford South or North?

Personally I use the bridge about once a week, especially if I'm going from the limerick Road to Tramore at peak times but to be honest at 11am on a week day its faster to go accross the bridge , up Carrigpherish, out by B&Q and around by the ring road, but the speed limit does put me off as I just get permenatly over-taken.

wellboytoo

@rayc, I agree the article is about the by pass only , but there is an intrinsic link between the two of them, and Ireland Inc were masters at building part of a roadway and dumping all the traffic on to a boreen then, in this case it was finished properly. So again you cannot divide the two parts as they have to be viewed as a whole.

STIG83

I have no problem with the toll, it worth paying the fee to avoid the city if i was going to KK or Dublin.
If they put the toll plaza on the M9 between Waterford and KK, it might have worked better than where it is now.

thomasm

Out of curosity how many more people would use the bridge if the toll was €1.00, I know I would. They need to simply make it more attractive cost wise

fricatus

The bypass and bridge are a great addition to Waterford, and I believe they were built in the right place too. The only problem is the toll. It's obvious that 43,000 vehicles need to cross the river every day - the only problem is that so many of them go through the city centre.

The trouble is that the NRA somehow thought that a higher proportion of those 40-odd thousand vehicles were through traffic, and would naturally use the toll bridge. The scheme was referred to as a "bypass" whereas Cork and Limerick have "ring roads". I think the name alone betrays their view of Waterford as more a bottleneck for large amounts of through traffic (as Monasterevin was) rather than a primary destination in itself.

There really isn't all that much through traffic on the N25 near Waterford. The two cities of Waterford and Cork are by far and away the main origin/destination points for N25 traffic (and consequently most of the traffic in the Waterford area is going to or from Waterford itself).

Ultimately therefore, this bridge should best be considered as part of the city's road network rather than as part of a through-route. As such, it will carry a lot of daily commuter traffic, which is very toll-sensitive. If it's to be used to its potential, the toll will simply have to go.

wmpdd3

STIG83 wrote: »

I have no problem with the toll, it worth paying the fee to avoid the city if i was going to KK or Dublin.
If they put the toll plaza on the M9 between Waterford and KK, it might have worked better than where it is now.

I'd pay €5 to avoid the old Waterford to Kilkenny road.

Best addition to Waterford in 20yrs.

Boskowski

A lot of the traffic is commuter traffic. For a commuter its simply too much to pay to add to ever rising petrol prices (for the most part due to tax/duty increases), motor tax etc.
The fact there isn't even the slightest bit of commuter/frequent user discount on the toll fees is outright scandalous.

Professey Chin

Boskowski wrote: »

A lot of the traffic is commuter traffic. For a commuter its simply too much to pay to add to ever rising petrol prices (for the most part due to tax/duty increases), motor tax etc.
The fact there isn't even the slightest bit of commuter/frequent user discount on the toll fees is outright scandalous.

That makes up something like 60% of petrol prices I think I heard yesterday :eek:
And motor tax is also the devil

Boskowski

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

That makes up something like 60% of petrol prices I think I heard yesterday :eek:

http://www.pumps.ie/FAQPricesExplained.php

If someone used the bridge twice a day it would add €75.60 to their monthly commuting expenses.

savic04

the bridge is good if your going from Tramore to Dublin or that direction...
but we didnt need it, not at the moment..

The road is Dublin is superb!! but the bridge in that area wasnt a great idea, most people living in Waterford city dont need to use it and thats the problem.

I know people who travel to work in the IDA from the new ross, Co Kilkenny area and they use it but not every day due to the cost

Bards

Boskowski wrote: »

A lot of the traffic is commuter traffic. For a commuter its simply too much to pay to add to ever rising petrol prices (for the most part due to tax/duty increases), motor tax etc.
The fact there isn't even the slightest bit of commuter/frequent user discount on the toll fees is outright scandalous.

there is a 10% reduction for Trip Cards

http://www.southlink.ie/gpage3.html

rayc

wellboytoo wrote: »

@rayc, I agree the article is about the by pass only , but there is an intrinsic link between the two of them, and Ireland Inc were masters at building part of a roadway and dumping all the traffic on to a boreen then, in this case it was finished properly. So again you cannot divide the two parts as they have to be viewed as a whole.

What I meant here is that the M9 is not the issue, the toll bridge is. The M9 is irrelevant to the issues with the toll-bridge so i don't think there's any point discussing it. I think the article is right in that there is a problem with the toll bridge, but I don't think it's a 'white elephant'. The bridge is a great piece of infrastructure that can, and hopefully will be used to it's full potential. In fact I'd argue that more press should be given locally to the issues so that we can have them addressed. I for one would love to use the bridge more but there are a number of reasons I don't, and these are what we should be focusing on.

Clearly the toll is the biggest one, especially now with the recession. However as pointed out that can't be properly discussed until we know the arrangement between the toll operators and the NRA. The operator have no incentive to drop the toll if they are already being paid by the government.

On the other hand, the speed limit on the ORR definitely stops me from travelling from my house in ardkeen to the bridge via the ORR. Also upgrading of the quays to discourage traffic (and promote pedestrian traffic) are what the city council should be looking at (and are looking at I believe).

Boskowski

Bards wrote: »

there is a 10% reduction for Trip Cards

http://www.southlink.ie/gpage3.html

Fair enough thanks, but for a commuter a 10% reduction is not near enough of an incentive.

It's only your reward for coorperating with a cost savings measure, it's by no means a frequent user discount. Frequent user discount would have to be in the region of 50%.

STIG83

thomasm wrote: »

Out of curosity how many more people would use the bridge if the toll was €1.00, I know I would. They need to simply make it more attractive cost wise

I could see more people using it at that price, if a trial run was done at that price it be interesting to see would more people use it than they do now.

fricatus

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I'd pay €5 to avoid the old Waterford to Kilkenny road.

Best addition to Waterford in 20yrs.

Just for clarity, this thread is not about the M9 between Waterford and Dublin. It's about the bypass (Kilmeaden to Slieverue) including the new toll bridge.

STIG83

I have always said to myself you are better off paying the toll than to be stuck trying to get through the city wasting petrol or diesel especially in rush hour traffic.

calvin_zola

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I think the singage comming from Cork and Dublin is useless. Visitors have rang us when they have ended up in town because the didn't understand the signage.

As is the signage from Waterford city, drivers are 50mts from the roundabout at Grannagh before there is a sign for the bypass. They must know there is a problem because they put electronic signs up, but you have to be driving very slowly to read these signs fully.

You know yourself if its been a while since you visited a place and you try a new road and get confused, 1st thing you do is divert back to the road you know.

Do you know which part of Waterford is Waterford South or North?

Personally I use the bridge about once a week, especially if I'm going from the limerick Road to Tramore at peak times but to be honest at 11am on a week day its faster to go accross the bridge , up Carrigpherish, out by B&Q and around by the ring road, but the speed limit does put me off as I just get permenatly over-taken.

it would have made more sense if they had made the signs Waterford City and West Waterford because alot of visitors coming to Kilmeaden etc just use the old route becasue it dosen't twig with tem to follow the Cork route

calvin_zola

thomasm wrote: »

Out of curosity how many more people would use the bridge if the toll was €1.00, I know I would. They need to simply make it more attractive cost wise

I agree, or do multitrips for business frequent travellers, better priced than the 10% on offer

wellbutty

rayc wrote: »

On the other hand, the speed limit on the ORR definitely stops me from travelling from my house in ardkeen to the bridge via the ORR. Also upgrading of the quays to discourage traffic (and promote pedestrian traffic) are what the city council should be looking at (and are looking at I believe).

This is the reason I rarely use it, if you ask people for money, you must give them something back...and this "something" needs to be time. Having such a slow speed limit on the ORR makes the bridge punishing not rewarding. I think even at 50 cents it will struggle unless it's more accessible.

Joey leBlanc

fricatus wrote: »

Just for clarity, this thread is not about the M9 between Waterford and Dublin. It's about the bypass (Kilmeaden to Slieverue) including the new toll bridge.

Thanks for clarifying the matter pedantic pete :rolleyes:

fricatus

Joey leBlanc wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying the matter pedantic pete :rolleyes:

"Pedantic Pete" - aren't you the comedian?

I think you're looking for "After Hours" there lad...

Bards

Joey leBlanc wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying the matter pedantic pete :rolleyes:

He is not being pedantic at all. The N25 Waterford City Bypass is tolled. The M9 Waterford to Dublin is not. they are two completely differnet schemes

dayshah

It should be feasible to have a monthly pass that would be attractive for commuters.

wmpdd3

I just thought, if the toll is making less money than thought, will it have to be tolled for longer like the point made above.

sunnysoutheast

Is this one of the tolls that are set "too high" due to changes in the RPI - I think this is an ongoing court case?

I suppose the level of the toll is set based on convenience and time saving at busy times, TBH I always use it unless it's very early/late to avoid the PITA of the "hazard light firework display" quays - the sooner this major asset to the City is made more pedestrian and tourist friendly the better IMHO. I'm not sure the bridge was necessarily intended to save time for local traffic, I think the "bypass" aspect was for passing N25 traffic.

The ring road is 80kmh from the Old Kilmeaden rd out to the N25 bypass.

I'd also agree that the signage is very poor in the Cork direction, and the electronic signs are confusing in that the one at the Kilmeaden roundabout says "toll" going straight on, when you can actually access the ring road without paying a toll.

SSE

Hoffmans

all the pps schemes have a built in compo subsidy once the revenue falls beneath a certain level....

to combat the falling revenues the city council have been given grants to make the quays into a single lane both ways with loads of needless traffic islands and roundabouts.....will be great for pollution having it clogged up when its done....:(

fricatus

Hoffmans wrote: »

to combat the falling revenues the city council have been given grants to make the quays into a single lane both ways with loads of needless traffic islands and roundabouts.....will be great for pollution having it clogged up when its done....:(

Has to happen though, if only for pedestrian safety. It's too much of a racetrack down there at times. They're right to slow things down. A poor woman was killed down there only a month or so ago - I'm sure it was a pure accident, but incidents like this are much less likely if traffic is slowed down.

rayc

fricatus wrote: »

Has to happen though, if only for pedestrian safety. It's too much of a racetrack down there at times. They're right to slow things down. A poor woman was killed down there only a month or so ago - I'm sure it was a pure accident, but incidents like this are much less likely if traffic is slowed down.

Not to mention the quayside might become an attractive place for people to go... like most other waterfronts in major cities.

road_high

Biggest problem for me is the toll, most definitely. I like to head down to Tramore the odd sunday or evening for a drive and have found the couple of times i used the bypass/toll bridge to be totally useless and almost as quick and handy to go through the city; far less roundabouts for one thing and the road in via Sallypark is top class now as well. The outer ring road in Wterford is ridiculous low speed limit; the non dual carriage way Kilkenny ring road is 100 KMH by comparison!! And the layout of the roundabouts is also abysmal with traffic going through them haveing to stay in the left lane...they should be designed in such a way to take through traffic in both lanes like some of the ones in Kilkenny as well.

If it were a euro per trip then it would be better...and 10% off for commuters is simply not enough..i'm sure lots more people would use it if say it was a tenner or less per week; The toll operators have to realise we are in a reccession and people will vote with their wallets..like all other businesses have had to cut prices and do deals/incentives to survive.

Deisekickboxing

There's 4 pedestrian Crossings with lights ,if people can't be arsed to use them they not only endanger themselves. But also the motorists....

Marchandire

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the old Waterford-Dublin road was anything less than a travesty. The main issue my OP was focusing on was tolling on the bridge, particularly how the tolls stop the bypass from functioning as it was intended.

An interesting article from 2001 here: http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/gbmhqlcw/

Two points stand out: Noel Dempsey was adamant that tolling was necessary if the bypass was to open on time (in 2005), and not six or seven years late. As I understand it, the bypass opened in October 2009 anyway, four years after the original deadline. Given that the opening was late, was this threat merely a means for the FF/PD coalition to forge ahead with the PPP scheme unhindered?

Labour councillors tabled a motion opposing tolling in 2001. Their sentiments were fairly close to those I've heard from Waterford people lately:

'Cllr. O’Ceilleachair argued that other parts of the country such as Galway, Cork, Athlone and Limerick had got new bridge crossings or major infrastructural projects without having toll charges imposed. Waterford shouldn’t be any different... The people of this area including those going through the crossing for industrial or commercial reasons shouldn’t be charged every time they go over this bridge.'

The motion was supported by Paudie Coffey, who suggested an alternate method of 'shadow tolling' paid by the government. John Deasy refused to support the Labour motion, on the grounds that the council had no power in relation to tolling (the NRA has statutory powers in this regard). David Cullinane has taken a similar position in his Blog. John Halligan, in his role as Mayor, was effusive in this support for the new bypass, including a piece in the brochure: http://www.waterfordcity.ie/n25bypass/files/N25-PromoBrouchure.pdf

Unsurprisingly, ten Fianna Fail Councillors voted the motion down, with the quote from Ollie Wilkinson particularly memorable: 'He said the Council would be “stone mad” to do anything to hinder the provision of the bridge.'


My position is that Waterford people paid the same taxes as anyone else and deserved the same infrastructure as other parts of the country, without a punitive tax on what is basically taxpayer funded infrastructure. Very few local politicians foresaw a problem with tolling the bridge, preferring to take political credit for the visible improvement to our roads, or to sit on the fence and leave the issue in the hands of the NRA. These politicians failed local people in this regard.

wmpdd3

I can see there being a bridge between The tower and Ballgunner in the next 15 years that will finally take from Rice bridge.

Joey leBlanc

fricatus wrote: »

"Pedantic Pete" - aren't you the comedian?

I think you're looking for "After Hours" there lad...

If you find it hard to laugh at yourself, I would be happy to do it for you!

Must be a humour free zone discussing such weighty topics in the leafy
suburbs that is the Dunmore Road.

Psychedelic

Deisekickboxing wrote: »

There's 4 pedestrian Crossings with lights ,if people can't be arsed to use them they not only endanger themselves. But also the motorists....

True, but a lot of motorists break the traffic lights:
http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/traffic-offence-every-90-seconds-on-quay/

Cabaal

savic04 wrote: »

I know people who travel to work in the IDA from the new ross, Co Kilkenny area and they use it but not every day due to the cost

I travel everyday down the M9 but its so early and traffic is so light I go via the city as apposed to the toll bridge, in the evenings I also go through the city even though traffic is heavier.

The only time I use the toll bridge is if its a Friday and I want to get home earlier or I'm in a hurry, but 1.90 a pop is too expensive to use it twice a day.

Deisekickboxing

Psychedelic wrote: »

True, but a lot of motorists break the traffic lights:
http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/traffic-offence-every-90-seconds-on-quay/

That article was pure tripe, council spin not doubt from the amount of objections there is against their plans for
bottlenecking the quays

Cabaal

Deisekickboxing wrote: »

That article was pure tripe, council spin not doubt from the amount of objections there is against their plans for
bottlenecking the quays

Problem is anyone who drives the quays and actually pays attention to the lights etc will know there's actually alot of truth in the story.

There are 4 sets of lights between the bridge and the tower (not counting the lights after the tower), even when its 7am you still see idiots running the red and amber lights.

Before I moved and started driving to work I used to do an awful lot of cycling and walking on the quays and 9 times out of 10 if the light just turned green and you stepped out you'd be hit....the lights just passed Centra are awful for it.

Infact one night I was nearly killed by a motorist just passed Centra who drove through the light yet it had been red for a good 3-4 seconds.

Alot of idiots use the quays as a racetrack of sorts
:mad:

Hoffmans

wouldnt trust them lights at the best a times only the ones at the clock tower are safe to cross ,
tho in reading that article i wonder what is the motiavation behind it ,does seem like the old 'heres a problem and theres the solution' type of spin journalism....

merlante

At the end of the day, the Quay has been downgraded to a regional road, the council are going to bring it down to 1 lane and bring in traffic calming. In the near future the south quays will be redeveloped and will one of the biggest amenities and tourist draws in the city.

The bypass is there to absorb much of the traffic and it will be used a lot more when the quay is returned to the city. At the moment it's just a dual carriageway, which we don't need in our city centre. The south quay has huge potential, more than any other Irish cities. Iirc the Frank Cassin warf is going to facilitate cruise ships, and the city will hopefully be postcard perfect in a few years. A few restaurants/cafes on the quay overlooking the water and you're laughing.

Bards

Bump:

NRA now has stats for 2010 on their site

http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N25-1a.htm (East)
http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N25-2a.htm (West)