Anyone else fully in favour of gay marriage but NOT adoption?

hatrickpatrick

Just wondering does anyone share my view that gay marriage should be 100% allowed but adoption is far more tricky and probably shouldn't?

Before you dismiss me as a bigot hear me out for a second. I have no doubt that a gay couple could easily raise a child just as well as a heterosexual couple. This isn't about gender roles or about ability to actually do the job.

It's more about the social consequences for the kids. The words "gay", "fag" etc are widely used as insults by kids (as, indeed, is anything different) up until probably 2nd or 3rd year. Can you imagine the torrent of abuse some kid could get if, through no fault of their own, they were adopted by gay parents? I mean accusing people of this is already used as a playground slur (I bet your dad likes men, hurr hurr hurr) etc.

it sucks that society hasn't progressed enough, but it hasn't. Until the day homosexuality is 100% taboo free I think this would be unfair to kids, as young children and teenagers are notorious for enforcing social taboos to a horifically strict standard among their peers. I genuinely feel it would be condemning a kid to a childhood of bullying and ultimately, resentment at their situation.

This however does not mean I'm anti-gay. But intolerance is sadly a part of our society and until this is no longer the case, I say the hapiness and wellbeing of the children must come before the happiness and rights of parents - as it should, indeed, in every single case involving a conflict of interest between parents and children.

Anyone agree/disagree?

common sense brigade

it sucks that society hasn't progressed enough

But if we dont allow gay people adopt children, then society will never progress .

hatrickpatrick

common sense brigade wrote: »

But if we dont allow gay people adopt children, then society will never progress .

Don't you think proper education from an early age that intolerance isn't ok should come first?

When we reach a situation that homosexuality is viewed as totally normal and not in the least bit a "bad" thing, then fine. But at the moment all I can see is that allowing gay adoption would condemn a bunch of kids to having incredibly sh!tty childhoods at the hands of their peers.

Dermo

The change has to start somewhere.
Kids will always be kids, do you support the law saying not to give kids the name "Bart" because it rhymes with fart?

edit: What about what the kids want? Would they prefer to have no parents and be taunted for that or have parents, be loved and be taunted for that?

Chuchoter

Kids get bullied over everything. Do you stop people with red hair having kids? Stop letting kids with glasses go to school? You can get picked on for being bad at spelling or maths. Do we lock them in the attic and hope for the best? If they are getting bullied the school should do something about it, like every other instance of bullying. In any case, I know a fair few children of gay parents, none of them were bullied any more than anyone else.

Kids getting bullied is not a valid reason to deprive them of a family. Children are not born homophobic, they only become so because they are taught that and probably never meet any gay people/children of gay people until they are much much older. If you make it normal to them they won't make fun of it.

ninty9er

Nope.

I'd be in favour of dismantling marriage as a legal institution and relegating it to it's proper religious place.

Therefore nobody, regardless of hetero/homosexual would be entitled to have a "marriage" legally recognised. They could still do it, but a civil register would be where the tax code, next of kin, legal relationship status would be determined.

After all, it is just a piece of paper, and a marriage is just a ceremony, the people are what make a family.

There is a fundamental flaw in your argument too. Adoption is only one of the ways whereby a homosexual couple can have kids. There is the divorce/widowed case, the case of surrogacy and in the case of lesbian couples the option of their own kids by IVF.

Channel 4 did a documentary a number of months back called "My Wierd and Wonderful Family" which showed that you can fit in. There were prejudices exposed, but that could be viewed as being a result of the campness of one of the partners.

Nobody would walk past me in the street and think I'm gay. People with prejudices seem to think that they can spot one a 100 paces. Honestly a straight guy is as likely to be camp as a gay person and I know plenty of people, who like me, would not be identifiable as gay going about their daily routine.

Kids are resilient if nothing else. As society becomes increasingly more politically correct (not necessarily a trend that I am endeared to) institutions such as schools will go out of their way to quash prejudice. Even compared to when I was in Leaving Cert 6 years ago, Ireland is a very different place socially. In another 6 years people will have progressed further.

hatrickpatrick

ninty9er wrote: »

Nope.

I'd be in favour of dismantling marriage as a legal institution and relegating it to it's proper religious place.

Therefore nobody, regardless of hetero/homosexual would be entitled to have a "marriage" legally recognised. They could still do it, but a civil register would be where the tax code, next of kin, legal relationship status would be determined.

After all, it is just a piece of paper, and a marriage is just a ceremony, the people are what make a family.

There is a fundamental flaw in your argument too. Adoption is only one of the ways whereby a homosexual couple can have kids. There is the divorce/widowed case, the case of surrogacy and in the case of lesbian couples the option of their own kids by IVF.

Channel 4 did a documentary a number of months back called "My Wierd and Wonderful Family" which showed that you can fit in. There were prejudices exposed, but that could be viewed as being a result of the campness of one of the partners.

Nobody would walk past me in the street and think I'm gay. People with prejudices seem to think that they can spot one a 100 paces. Honestly a straight guy is as likely to be camp as a gay person and I know plenty of people, who like me, would not be identifiable as gay going about their daily routine.

Kids are resilient if nothing else. As society becomes increasingly more politically correct (not necessarily a trend that I am endeared to) institutions such as schools will go out of their way to quash prejudice. Even compared to when I was in Leaving Cert 6 years ago, Ireland is a very different place socially. In another 6 years people will have progressed further.

I absolutely agree about dismantling the institution. I have always believed in doing this and the sooner the better.
Again, it's just this nagging feeling in my mind that you're putting kids in a position where they will feel different and left out in some way, without having any choice in the matter.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Its fine as long as one parent is straight acting.

Ok that's a joke but really I don't think the slagging would be as bad as people think. Kids end up in tears over all kinds of slagging I doubt it would be any worse for the children of a gay couple.

cavedave

hatrickpatrick

It's more about the social consequences for the kids. The words "gay", "fag" etc are widely used as insults by kids (as, indeed, is anything different) up until probably 2nd or 3rd year. Can you imagine the torrent of abuse some kid could get if, through no fault of their own, they were adopted by gay parents? I mean accusing people of this is already used as a playground slur (I bet your dad likes men, hurr hurr hurr) etc.

What would you do with lesbian couples who have children? Sperm is not exactly a precious resource. Sperm must be fairly easy for lesbian couples to get their turkey basters on. Would you take the child of a lesbian mother (and her partner who has been acting at least in loco parentis) away from them?

jimmycrackcorm

I don't have a problem with the a adoption bit, it's the redefinition of marriage that I object to. And that is for the same reason that I object to Americans saying happy Holidays instead of happy Christmas.

A lemon

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't have a problem with the a adoption bit, it's the redefinition of marriage that I object to. And that is for the same reason that I object to Americans saying happy Holidays instead of happy Christmas.

When women got the vote, they did not redefine voting.

common sense brigade

Don't you think proper education from an early age that intolerance isn't ok should come first?

Isint this already happening in the vast majority of Irish households? I for one am a mother and my husband and I are teaching our daughter that gay marriage is a great thing if people are happy and want it and in love etc. Same as hetro marriage. I would imagine most kids are told these things.

When we reach a situation that homosexuality is viewed as totally normal

Again i think homosexuality is viewed as normal. Ok it still has a bit of a stigma but no more than any stigma out there.

But at the moment all I can see is that allowing gay adoption would condemn a bunch of kids to having incredibly sh!tty childhoods at the hands of their peers.

I was raised my my two uncles (ok they werent gay) but no better parents role models could you find out there. Kids will always find a reason to bully other kids. The world will never be perfect.

Also lesbian couples can get pregnant because they are biologically able to, and no one stops them.Thank goodness.
It seems unfair to me to penalise Gay men from having a family through adoption. Well its more than unfair Its an insult to their human rights.

But intolerance is sadly a part of our society and until this is no longer the case,

This sadly will never happen. We will always have intolerance. It doesnt mean we should bow down to it. We should change things for the better.

E.T.

There are plenty of "normal" couples in this country who treat their children like dirt, neglect them, abuse them. Why should they have more rights to have children than a gay couple who are willing to treat their child well? Just because they can have children themselves doesn't make it right.

aDeener

common sense brigade wrote: »

But if we dont allow gay people adopt children, then society will never progress .

that is an extremely vague statement. progress to what exactly?

sollar

What would gay married couples call each other - husband and husband, wife and wife?

I agree with some form of legal union but not marriage. Marriage is an ancient tradition between husband and wife imo.

irishh_bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Just wondering does anyone share my view that gay marriage should be 100% allowed but adoption is far more tricky and probably shouldn't?

Before you dismiss me as a bigot hear me out for a second. I have no doubt that a gay couple could easily raise a child just as well as a heterosexual couple. This isn't about gender roles or about ability to actually do the job.

It's more about the social consequences for the kids. The words "gay", "fag" etc are widely used as insults by kids (as, indeed, is anything different) up until probably 2nd or 3rd year. Can you imagine the torrent of abuse some kid could get if, through no fault of their own, they were adopted by gay parents? I mean accusing people of this is already used as a playground slur (I bet your dad likes men, hurr hurr hurr) etc.

it sucks that society hasn't progressed enough, but it hasn't. Until the day homosexuality is 100% taboo free I think this would be unfair to kids, as young children and teenagers are notorious for enforcing social taboos to a horifically strict standard among their peers. I genuinely feel it would be condemning a kid to a childhood of bullying and ultimately, resentment at their situation.

This however does not mean I'm anti-gay. But intolerance is sadly a part of our society and until this is no longer the case, I say the hapiness and wellbeing of the children must come before the happiness and rights of parents - as it should, indeed, in every single case involving a conflict of interest between parents and children.

Anyone agree/disagree?

yes , id be ok with gay marriage but completley opposed to gay couples being allowed to adopt

jimmycrackcorm

A lemon wrote: »

When women got the vote, they did not redefine voting.

There's a significant difference between getting to vote and being able to marry.
The day after you marry makes things no different from the day before; after all, civil partnership gives all the rights and privileges so what difference does it make?

jimmycrackcorm

crayolastereo wrote: »

Kids get bullied over everything.

+1. Kids will be fine as long as they have loving, supportive and protective parents regardless of which sex they may be.

common sense brigade

that is an extremely vague statement. progress to what exactly?

It isint vague , you just lack the ability to grasp it

Nodin

sollar wrote: »

What would gay married couples call each other - husband and husband, wife and wife?

I agree with some form of legal union but not marriage. Marriage is an ancient tradition between husband and wife imo.

Marriage as a sacrament dates only to the 1500's, as something the state takes an interest in, to the 1700's. Its often been between man and wives.....

Beruthiel

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

it sucks that society hasn't progressed enough, but it hasn't. Until the day homosexuality is 100% taboo free I think this would be unfair to kids, as young children and teenagers are notorious for enforcing social taboos to a horifically strict standard among their peers. I genuinely feel it would be condemning a kid to a childhood of bullying and ultimately, resentment at their situation.

If people like Martin Luther King or Malcolm X had not helped to lead the black population of America to continually push for their human rights, blacks in that country would still be sitting back waiting for change.
Nelson Mandela gave up most of his life to his cause.
Suffragettes worked for women's rights.
Harvey Milk went into politics to further the rights of homosexuals.

Change has never, ever come by sitting back and waiting for it.
There have always been those few brave individuals who have pushed their necks out, somethings to the detriment of themselves just so they could drag the rest of humanity on a bit.

The LGTB Community have every right to push for this, and perhaps, drag the rest of us along with regards to being more open minded towards our fellow citizens.
That can only be a good thing.

barrackali

I said this in another thread, I'm totally in favour of Gay Marriage....but vehemently opposed to any notion of adoption.

common sense brigade

....but vehemently opposed to any notion of adoption

wow Pat yourself on the back. sure let the Gays get married but keep control on them so they cannot have full family life with children. Lets give them so much 'leeway' then highly insult them by telling them they would be bad role models/parents. There will always be bad parents in every walk of life gay straight bi etc. Last time i checked Gay people pay their taxes here like everyone else. They contribute to our society. and deserve the same rights that we all have. Anyone who thinks anything different well there is a word for you....Bigot

Beruthiel

barrackali wrote: »

I said this in another thread, I'm totally in favour of Gay Marriage....but vehemently opposed to any notion of adoption.

For me, that's no different than saying the following:

I'm totally in favour of mixed/black people marrying ....but vehemently opposed to any notion of adoption.

barrackali

Beruthiel wrote: »

For me, that's no different than saying the following:

I'm totally in favour of mixed/black people marrying ....but vehemently opposed to any notion of adoption.

Put it to a referendum, this proposal would be soundly defeated. Then you guys can call everybody a "bigot".

MajorMax

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Just wondering does anyone share my view that gay marriage should be 100% allowed but adoption is far more tricky and probably shouldn't?

Before you dismiss me as a bigot hear me out for a second. I have no doubt that a gay couple could easily raise a child just as well as a heterosexual couple. This isn't about gender roles or about ability to actually do the job.

It's more about the social consequences for the kids. The words "gay", "fag" etc are widely used as insults by kids (as, indeed, is anything different) up until probably 2nd or 3rd year. Can you imagine the torrent of abuse some kid could get if, through no fault of their own, they were adopted by gay parents? I mean accusing people of this is already used as a playground slur (I bet your dad likes men, hurr hurr hurr) etc.

it sucks that society hasn't progressed enough, but it hasn't. Until the day homosexuality is 100% taboo free I think this would be unfair to kids, as young children and teenagers are notorious for enforcing social taboos to a horifically strict standard among their peers. I genuinely feel it would be condemning a kid to a childhood of bullying and ultimately, resentment at their situation.

This however does not mean I'm anti-gay. But intolerance is sadly a part of our society and until this is no longer the case, I say the hapiness and wellbeing of the children must come before the happiness and rights of parents - as it should, indeed, in every single case involving a conflict of interest between parents and children.

Anyone agree/disagree?

You are making too many assumptions. There is no valid reason based on a person's sexuality that they wouldn't make a good parent and provide a loving and supportive home.

common sense brigade

Put it to a referendum, this proposal would be soundly defeated. Then you guys can call everybody a "bigot".

If there was a referendum and the outcome was gay people cannot adopt . then i would say the voters were bigots. there is no other word for them. It would be another shameful day for Ireland.

cavedave

barrackali

I said this in another thread, I'm totally in favour of Gay Marriage....but vehemently opposed to any notion of adoption.

Why are you opposed? I am not accusing you of anything. I genuinely want to read your reasoning on this.

common sense brigade

Why are you opposed? I am not accusing you of anything. I genuinely want to read your reasoning on this.

Me too x 1.
And the children might get bullied argument just doesnt cut it. some children will always bully other children.

cursai

Marriage is for men and women. If gay people want to get married....fine...whatever! Have gay friends, all the best to them. But bringing kids into the equation is wrong. A child needs a father and mother ). Both sides of the sexual equation(although sometimes this can be inadequate its still natural, a cow doesn't rare a lamb). Its just not natural, i feel that in every bit of marrow of my bones like an instinct. And no its not fear or prejudice thats motivating me even sub consciously.
Next thing we'll be having transgender people looking for adoption rights!!! Pointless and childish!

common sense brigade

A child needs a father and mother

How many children in Ireland only have one parent! I personally had no mother. Just my two uncles. And i had a wonderful childhood.

And no its not fear or prejudice thats motivating me even sub consciously.

I wouldnt say your afraid, i would just say your the average closeminded Irish Bigot